Sad... but I'm not surprised.
RIP
Who ???
QuoteWho ???
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5196406/?GT1=3584
Man.. >:(
Sounds like the "evil doers" are finding out something that REALLY affects us. Car bombing must not be graphic or personal enough for us. >:(
What really stunned me is that Mr. Johnson bears a great resemblance to Carston, the head of the Road America Safety crew and a good friend to many of us. Seeing the face of a friend on an Iraqi prisoner who was beheaded makes it much more personal. I know it shouldn't. but it does.
I'll bet our troops are shooting anyone who so much as looks sideways at them... God, I hope corner worker Phil Bresnahan will be OK. We've been buds since High School.
I was all for the war, still am, but DAMN I wish the lawyers and the media would sit this one out. Our guys seem handcuffed and can't work effectively for surrender. Don't blow up the weapons at the mosk, don't hurt the guy that was just shooting at you. A war is never over till the enemy says it is. The way it's going it will never be and too many of our guys are falling. They will surely show theirself all over the world and right here in the USA again and again. I'm dreading the olympics. Sorry to be such a downer, and I feel for Mr. Johnson and his family. But we'd better get used to things like this.
What really gets me, is how everyone keeps trading lives off as a "lesson" to someone else.
What the hell are they trying to prove? If there only intention is getting somewhere by threatening fear, I say nuke the living s@it out of every single one of them, and anyone willing to help them. Fear shouldn't be a negotiation tool. Not for us, or anyone else. Terrorism, as a way of life is not acceptable, flat out. Anyone that contributes to terrorism, in any way, should be killed on site. That's all there is to it IMHO.
I'm wondering if in 10 years if I'm going to have to apologize to my children for bringing them into this world :-/
Why are we over there, again? :-X
QuoteWhy are we over there, again? :-X
Call the White House and ask them, cause it seems to me that their the only one's that can answer that one ::) :-/ :-X
I'll answer...
Why?
It isn't because of land. It isn't because of oil.
We're dealing with people that kill anyone that doesn't agree with their thoughts on their views.
So, they don't care who they kill. They justify it.
Your a young guy working on cell towers in Iraqi to help the communications system there. Abducted, beheaded.
You're a journalist in Pakistan. Abducted, beheaded.
You're a mechanic in Saudi Arabia...not to mention that you've been part of the local community for over ten years...
Abducted, beheaded.
I feel no pity for what will befall someone that has such personal intensity to take the time to CUT through the layers of flesh, nerves, thorax, bone, and all to make their point.
Their ideology has no foundation in morality, be it Jewish, Islam, Christian, or otherwise.
As Tony Blair said, "There is no meeting of the minds..."
This is something that has to be stopped.
My kids are 6 and 8.
When I took my son to school and then the Twin Towers happened...
So, what will his life look like in the future?
I grew up in a real ground zero area...Cold War.
I lived in Omaha, Nebraska...and Offut Air Force Base was ground zero. The National Emergency Airborn Command Post was based there...that's the President's plane. Looking Glass was in the air 24 hours a day for some forty years...If "we" were hit, rest assured, "the glass" would launch the missles.
I knew that I would probably be baked in an instant.
I planned a military career. I knew that I would probably end up in Germany or someplace. Chemical Weapons? They had them, and they trained with them.
We won that war with Reagan's forsight to outspend them.
You can't do that with these people.
How do you think Mr Johnson's son feels?
Do you think these terrorist's mom's actually approve of this?
In Iraq, some of the people that help us, the US and other coalition forces, have their family members killed and the bodies are torn apart.
Those people recognize the difference that they make...they keep helping.
Is it so hard to think of the world we really live in as someplace that would be worth fighting for?
Reality? Shopping mall bombings. It could happen.
Sorry. I thought Mr. Johnson was in Iraq. I didn't read the whole story until after my post. :-[ I agree with the war againt terrorism and Al-Queda. I don't agree with the war on Iraq. I don't think "links to terrorist activities" are grounds for an all out war. And we allready know the deal on the "WMD's" ::)
The trouble is that the terriorsts mom does approve. His dad is honored when his son marters himself. This is a sick, sick bunch. The world has their head stuck in a beesnest and is afraid to sting back because it would be as low and supposedly immoral as the barbariens we are fighting. Tuff. War is life or death, it should not be political, or concerned with how it looks to the nieghbors. When the pictures come on TV with "rebels" dancing with their rocket launchers, why are we not napalming the streets? It makes no sence to try to change their hearts and minds to anything but dead.
We're there in an attempt to keep it over there. Saudi's have had serious problems concerning the overthrow of the royals. I kind of agree with the dissadents that the common people are'nt being treated fairly, none of my/our business and civillians should leave or never went in the first place. The twin towers, the Marine barracks, the crippled ship, on and on, is. If Saddam would have worked with the rest of the free world he would still be running the place and we'd be more focused in Afganistan. I don't believe for a moment it's being done right, but something had to be done. AGGGH! I'm doing it again, I'll shut up now.
QuoteI'll answer...
Do you think these terrorist's mom's actually approve of this?
Absolutely. They send them proudly to school for it.
Good post, Dave. Having lived in Iran as a kid, I'll throw in my $.02. You know what they say about opinions...
First, if you're old enough, go back and review Carter's actions to destabilize and assist the overthrow of the Shah, one of the only allies we had in the region, under the guise of "human rights". I hold him as responsible as the fanatic mullahs for the murder of childhood friends. I'm not talking about their fathers, whose laughter and kindness I still recall along with the image of their corpses in Time magazine. I'm talking about the murder of kids.
The revolution in Iran was a page from Stalin. Massacre the academics, intellegensia, ruling class and anyone with military authority (not to mention displaced Armenians and Assyrians) and the masses are controllable. Our Episcopal bishop was awakened in the night by gunfire as they attempted to kill him. His wife was shot and although she lived, their only son was murdered as he tried to get back home. When I see Carter on TV, I see the faces of my friends and I am deeply disgusted.
I hope we can somehow get out of Iraq. All we're doing now is showing the world how completely ignorant we Americans are about the Middle East. The average Joe in this country doesn't know the difference between an Iraqi and an Iranian and an Arab, let alone appreciate a 4,000 year old civilization or a Monarchy that survived for 2,000 years before a fool of a peanut farmer got in office. (Want a fight? Call an Iranian an Arab, which our news media do regularly, and get ready.)
I'm sorry to say that we will never win the "War against terrorism". The reason is simple. Terrorism is a tactic used in war, it is not the enemy itself. (How are we doing in the War against drugs? How about the War against poverty?) The US will not identify the enemy. We can't. Our constitution is based on the world view that all people are created equal. The enemy is every bit as dedicated to the principle that we are not equal and we should be eliminated from the face of the earth. They will continue to act on their world view to eliminate us. As a nation, will we ever have the will to identify them by sect, by their teachings, by the name of their mosque and then to kill them? I don't think so.
I do not pretend to understand the Arabic mind. It may develop that other countries in the region (with our help) will finally need to act to survive. But if the targets are more Paul Johnsons they will sit on the sidelines.
In my humble opinion the one and only chance Bush had to get in and out of Iraq with minimal damage was if he had found WMD. It wouldn't have changed those who will continue to kill us, but at least we might not have been so alone in this mess.
Once he declared his intention to build a free and democratic Iraq he became just another fool like the one that held the door open for our enemies 30 years ago under the banner of improving human rights.
Godspeed, Mr. Johnson.
:-/ Screw it, unleash the nukes from Washington, and point one straight up. Sooner or later, we are just going to destroy ourselves anyways. Why prolong it ??? WWIII is right around the corner. Thing is, it will be another useless war, or a holy war.
Good points, Don. Does anyone on this board think we are winning this war on terrorism in Iraq? We're trying to tell them how to live they're lives and they're having no part of it. So what are we doing there? How many young american soldiers have lost there lives? When is enough, enough? :'(
unleash the nukes from Washington, and point one straight up
^
That's when. I can tell you who my vote isn't going to during the next election.
Dylanfan, I appriciate your input and thank you for not displaying my ignorance anymore than I allready have. I believe we are of like mind, at least as your war against drugs senairo suggests. Very thoughtful, and I was unaware about Carter.
QuoteAnd we allready know the deal on the "WMD's" ::)
Yeah, remember the end of last month.
There was an artillery shell that was found with gas in it...scum bags tried to tie it into a road side bomb. The UN people were all over themselves because they claimed that those were all destroyed.
That was an actual WMD. The Abu prison took the media by storm covering that rather than actual WMD.
There has been lots and lots of equipment found that was and would be used in the production of WMD stuff though. Stuff that was claimed by Iraq, and the UN, that didn't exist.
You know how this stuff is, Kevin. You've been to NBC classes I'm sure. It's not like some one walking up to another person with a grenade. You pop one of those off and "boom" a certain area is destroyed.
We're talking about evil stuff. Small amounts of stuff can be produced by combining certain things. Then that product is delivered. It might not have any "bang" or much of one. We're talking about aweful products that cause the nervous system to contract one's muscles so hard that it breaks one's bones.
Yeah, that would be nice to have at a mall where a family of three went to buy shoes for their little girl that's going to kindergarten in the fall...
Yeah, there are families that love all this terrorist stuff. Hey, Saddam was paying those families money if their kids popped themselves off and killed an Israeli family eating out. Iraq is not pretty. But with the billions that Saddam and his thugs had...well, that part there certainly makes it a big part of all of this.
Anyone else remember Bush's speach after 9/11? I have friends that were in Military Intellegence and are currently in the FBI, etc. Life isn't pretty. Bush made it very clear that things weren't going to be all nice. We were going to have to deal with help from shady characters. There would be injuries and death.
Does anyone doubt that many terrorists are decending upon the Iraq region to destablize it in the name of their jihad? Again, it isn't pretty, but is there an opportunity to fight it head on and make a change.
In 1776 the Thirteen Colonies declared their independence from England. A war continued for years. It wasn't pretty either.
Many say that the French Revolution followed the American revolt.
After the American Revolutionay war...we were at it again in the War of 1812.
Iraq isn't going to be pretty. It isn't going to be easy. Will it ever be done? I don't think the American Experience is ever seen as completed...Brown vs Board of Education, Roe vs Wade, etc...it's a process.
Afgahnistan isn't pretty. But to me it at least seems as though there is some kind of hope.
Just like racing where there is one winner...everyone after first place is just a looser...there are still reasons to be victorious.
I can't say much about Carter. Something fishy was going on, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
Stopping the mentality of terror from the region is going to take decades. Iraq is part of that beginning.
Iran. What's next for them? I don't know. But they are now between Iraq and Afgahnistan...two countries that have been completely changed. Does that give the people that want change some power, hope, and opportunity? It think so.
Kevin, are we winning the war on terrorism?
The only way to loose is not to fight. That's the only way to loose. Not to fight is to say that I won't mind when my 71 year old father and brain damaged sister are killed by terrorists that blow up St Joan of Arc church while they are their for a Christmas dinner.
Anyone remember the people in plane number four on September 11, 2001? You never give up.
Not doing anything is failure.
Nukes?
Might be fine to turn the surface into the moon, but what's it really gonna do?
I was attached to a long range survelance detachment. Their motto was: When you care enough to send the very best.
I'm sorry, but the previous administrations would just make some calls and launch some cruise missles.
The reality of having a black American soldier named Bill along with an Arab-American, Mexican, etc. there in country trying to do something...there are people that see the opportunity they are being given.
Schools have increased attendance in Iraq...and the books no longer talk about the wonders of Saddam.
Again, the terror people feel like they are loosing control. Might be a last stand. They are going after anyone that helps to try to put together something, anything for an Iraq that would be different than what was before...
We helped clean the house. We've done alot with the Iraqi people. A set of keys is going back on June 30th to those people in place to try to start this all up...I think we had a president of the Continental Congress before George Washington was the president of the current Constitutional government we have today.
So, is that failure in the war on terrorism?
Unfortunately, the Abu grab (sp?) prison scandal and Washington's admittance that they are not granting POW rights by the Geneva conventions, to Iraqi prisoners, will bring more Americans to torture and beheadings. My sympathies and prayers to the Johnson family.
However, seeing that the Bush admin. is blatantly and illegally denying the Iraqis their POW rights our troops and civies will be denied their rights. No, it isn't gonna be pretty.
My $.02
Basically we are literally taking a knife to a gun fight, stop answering to the little wussys in the UN
Our president took a hour one night to sit and apologize for the troops taking some pictures w/naked prisoners. The next week the idiots send over a film of a young guy getting his head cut off. Now, we are told a couple of weeks ago if we don't let the specific prisoners that we have go, they in turn will cut off the head of this other dude.
Its time we as Americans stop being politically correct, we remove our troops give Iraqis 24 hours to flee the country, and if you don't flee.....WOOF up in a dust cloud. Then, turn the oil fields over to the five or six humane people that still are from Iraq.
Bottom line, if it's a political war, who the hell are we doing politics with? We removed their tyranny of a leader, are we only in this now to control oil quantities and production? Untie our militaries hands and let them do their thing.
Dave & Don great takes on the war.
I agree with your well thought out explaination.
As for that whole picture fiasco it made me sick not the pictures but the coverage I know it was emotonaly stressfull for the prisoners (to be honest with you I don't care) this is nothing new. when you are dealing with people who don't care about the Geneva convention you need to be a little more aggressive. I wish I had an answer to ending this whole mess I pray for a fast solution that keeps all of the good people over there safe.
QuoteUnfortunately, the Abu grab (sp?) prison scandal and Washington's admittance that they are not granting POW rights by the Geneva conventions, to Iraqi prisoners, will bring more Americans to torture and beheadings. My sympathies and prayers to the Johnson family.
However, seeing that the Bush admin. is blatantly and illegally denying the Iraqis their POW rights our troops and civies will be denied their rights. No, it isn't gonna be pretty.
Did you forget 9/11?
F those prisoners. I say take the list of people they wanted freed and have our own beheading Party.
People like you tie the hands of the Government. Do you think they played by rules on 9/11? Do you think they took prisoners during or even before the war?
Wake up!! This is a war and we are the only ones trying to play by the rules. They are and will not, that is what makes them unlawful combatants, therefore the Geneva Convention rules do not apply. Please do some research before you judge.
Semper FI
Adrian
USMC
I agree Adrian. >:(
QuoteDid you forget 9/11?
F those prisoners. I say take the list of people they wanted freed and have our own beheading Party.
People like you tie the hands of the Government. Do you think they played by rules on 9/11? Do you think they took prisoners during or even before the war?
Wake up!! This is a war and we are the only ones trying to play by the rules. They are and will not, that is what makes them unlawful combatants, therefore the Geneva Convention rules do not apply. Please do some research before you judge.
Semper FI
Adrian
USMC
Adrian,
Do you want to sort out which prisoners you want to F ?
He is referring to Iraqi prisoners. By the military's own admission many of them were simply citizens picked up at our checkpoints traveling to work or home. We had no idea who most of them were so we just rounded them up to try to get information. Perhaps you want to kill them, I don't know.
You are referring to al Qaeda Arabs in a different country that they wanted exchanged for Johnson. Perhaps those are the ones you want to kill.
I gotta get off this damn computer....
Try to do some research? Forget 9/11? 9/11 was carried out by a total of 19 PEOPLE; 15 were Saudis, 2 Pakistani, 2 from somewhere else other than Iraq. There were no Iraqis in those 9/11 planes!!! Research? Guerllia terrorists have no rules. We do have rules as a supposed civilised nation. Here was my point jarhead;
Bush's declaration of not abiding to the statutes of the Geneva Convention concerning POWs puts another set of crosshairs on EVERY ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS. THEY ARE NOW MARKED FOR DISABLING SHOTS SO THEY CAN BE TORTURED, BEATEN, AND BURNED ALIVE. GET IT? IM NOT TYING ANYONE'S HANDS; SIMPLY STATING THE OBVIOUS THAT GEORGE THE II HAS PRACTICALLY PUT A BOUNTY ON OUR OWN TROOPS. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE REFINERY.
I've kept silent over this, because I have two cousins in the service. One in Iraq and another in Afganistan.
Robbie, who is Iraq, knows exactly why he is there. The media puts a spin on things stating that we are not wanted in that country. While that is true for some Iraqi's, it is not true for all. We have a purpose and Iraq will be much better off without Saddam. Just ask any woman who lives in that country.
9/11 was Al-quiada (sp?) the same people terroist group that killed Mr. Johnson. They attack not only Americans, but other's who do not subscribe to their thinking. Yes, this is two separate issues.
The POW treatment was uncalled for. I thought we were above that. I am upset at the media for printing the pictures. If they cannot print the pictures of the Americans who were killed and their bodies mutilated, why did they print those other pictures. It seems like they (media) only wants to show the bad in us.....
I support our troops 100%. May God bring them home.
Dawn
Very good points, Dave. It's just I don't agree with the way things were and are being handled. Do I have a better plan? No. So I think I'll just leave this one alone. See you at the track. :)
QuoteBush's declaration of not abiding to the statutes of the Geneva Convention concerning POWs puts another set of crosshairs on EVERY ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS.
Again, we're dealing with a different kind of group of people. That's what they want from us anyway, the real people we're fighting against.
What happened at the prison hasn't changed anything.
The Geneva Convention didn't help the Kurds that were killed with WMD's...
And the UN didn't complain then.
The Geneva Convention didn't help the 300,000 people that were found in some mass graves in Iraqi.
I never saw any investigations into that by anyone...until now.
With the "prison scandal", there won't be pretty consequences for those at fault. We're dealing with the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If the UN gets involved for "war crimes", I think it's ridiculous. After all, they have never done anything really in Iraqi for those people that have been persecuted, murdered, raped, tortured, limbs removed, etc...
Not doing anything seemed to be the view of the last administration, that administration seemed to believe that if we didn't bother them, they wouldn't bother us. That administration thought we should concentrate on making everybody 'feel good' here in the U.S., and not worry about anticipating aggressive acts toward us and protect us adaquately. I bet many of the 'Bill' supporters don't know that he weekend our military the most of ANY President in ALL of U.S. history! Over 500 military bases were closed down during his 'feel good' Presidency and was done under the flag of saving tax money for the American worker. Sadly what the general public didn't know was that the money that was saved by those closures and military cut-backs netted the average worker about $1.86 per week! >:( That has got to be 1 of the dumbest thought processes there is. I would have gladly given another $5 per week to increase our military might!
These terrorists don't want us out of their region, they want a reason to do these acts. If we completely removed U.S. presence from the Arab world it would not stop these people from acting against us. These people feel that we are evil and that we need to be destroyed. I think that 1 of the only real ways we could effectively protect ourselves is to remove ourselves from the United Nations, close our borders to the rest of the world, retract our troops back home from throughout the world, and strengthen our military, technological, and surveillance advantages. But that is a fantasy and would never happen, so we are stuck with our politically correct hands being tied. :-/
I am just so glad that we didn't have Gore as a president when 9/11 happened, I don't even want to imagine what his knee-jerk wrong response would have been!
So now the Korean has been beheaded.... Do they think they are getting somewhere with this?
Last ditch effort...
Freedom in the heart of the Tigris and Eurphrates rivers...
Really, when has this happened ever?
The status quo has allowed awful things to happen. It wasn't pretty before we got involved. Did that give us any moral ground to stand on? Letting hundreds of thousands of people die...
Involvement does require sacrifice, unfortunately.
So, one of the questions has to be...
After September 11th, had we continued the course that was previously plotted, would we have any success? Yeah, maybe the count of dead would be different. Might have been higher given the opportunity for terrorists to continue to operate in their past modes.
Is it easier now to operate as a terrorist?
Have more lives been saved than lost? No way to answer that...but how many people did Hussein's thugs whack each week?