Who else thinks this is a bad idea. If your not in the "mainstream" classes, your points don't count for a regional overall championship? And not entitled to single digit numbers?
Another question, why do we need ametures riding unlimited bikes? NOT that there aren't ametures who are good enough, but the idea that you go through some glorified waiver called a race school, and the next day you can race a GSX-R 1000!
Will the class make money for CCS? Hell yeah! I guess nothing else matters anymore.
I don't know what you mean by "mainstream". Points are points. To win and overall regional championship you need money and lots of it. For example; Take expert racer Jeff McKinney and SE regional champion. The man has money and a bike for just about every class. A Ducati 750SS, 748R, 996SPS and a GSXR 750. He is also known as "Iron Butt" cus he races all weekend. He races those bikes in every class and every race they qualify for. If you want to win a regional championship, you need a lot of points.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything bad About Jeff. He is a good rider and a nice guy. And he has won races. But it takes lots of money and he's got it.
As for amateurs riding unlimited bikes, I have to agree but how would this be accomplished? It be too complicated to setup. How long would an amateur race before he's allowed to move up? Would this racer also need to place well? Do you see were I'm going?
I like/want to race twins and do not want to be told what I can race. If for example; CCS said that I had to start off racing small singles, I would just take my business somewhere else and I suspect others would too.
Honestly, I think the whole championship structure needs to be thrown in the trash. Not saying anything bad about anybody, but this whole system doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me.
- Track championships: you're not rewarded for dominating your class (as it should be for any "championship") but for entering as many classes as your budget allows.
- Overall regional championships: same deal. The more money you spend on bikes and multiple entries, the better your chances are.
- National championship: one-race event. I know having a national series is too complicated (although WERA has one) when CCS already has a huge number of regional events, but I think there is something wrong with crowning a national champion based on the results of one race. Just like college teams being crowned based on a friggin poll. Neither one makes sense to me. But I guess, at least in the one national race, everyone (who can travel to Daytona) has an equal chance.
What I propose:
- get rid of track championships: they don't make any sense
- get rid of overall regional championships: they don't make any sense
- put more emphasis on promoting and rewarding regional championships in each class. In my opinion, these are the true champions. If you feel it's too many "champions," then some classes have to go. Up to you.
- while you're at it, change the NASCAR-style points system where one is not rewarded for winning races, but rather for showing up at the greatest number of events. Just widen the gap a bit at the top. No offense to anyone. It's just a fact of the current point structure.
- Maybe the National CCS championships should be based on 3 events. One East, on West Coast, on central. Try to rotate the tracks. E.g Daytona one year, VIR or Road Atlanta, or Pocono the next. You can still have your yearly Daytona event since you run FUSA there. But CCS would only be there in the fall every 2 or 3 years.
As far as allowing novices to ride big bikes, there are good arguments on both side. But the fact is that there are very few "true" unlimited entries among Amateurs, and if revenue is the reason CCS is allowing it, this should be revisited. I don't think it would cost them that much. All year at Summit, there was one ZX9-R and maybe one GSXR1000. Everything else was 750 and below. But the more used R1s and GSXR1000s there are on the market, the more of them we'll be seeing fall into novices hands and head to the tracks. The time to act is now.
That said, I believe in giving every man and woman the freedom to choose how to die. However, in racing, that also impacts the lives on others.
QuoteI don't know what you mean by "mainstream". Points are points. To win and overall regional championship you need money and lots of it. For example; Take expert racer Jeff McKinney and SE regional champion. The man has money and a bike for just about every class. A Ducati 750SS, 748R, 996SPS and a GSXR 750. He is also known as "Iron Butt" cus he races all weekend. He races those bikes in every class and every race they qualify for. If you want to win a regional championship, you need a lot of points.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything bad About Jeff. He is a good rider and a nice guy. And he has won races. But it takes lots of money and he's got it.
Oh bullshit. He ran a ton of zero effort races. Didn't try to go fast....just went in circles until somebody finished the race. He brings the absolute best equipment and then putters around. He's not a horrible rider...but he's winning because of HP & money....not talent.
I would think there should be a limit on number of classes you can recieve points in like 4 since most bikes are eligible in 4 of the eligible classes and most people only have one bike.
Ricky, check your CCS flyer that came in the mail, basically, ALL sportsman classes, F-40 Singles (super, and 125) and a few others are concidered not to be mainstream, and not to be used for overall championships.
Papa_Thiam, Your idea for championships is right on!!! Only this wouldn't offer any reward for entering as many classes as you can afford, and CCS would loose money...CAN'T have that
I couldn't agree more about the location of the national championships as well! Daytona requires Bhp in spades. My GS500 would get SMOKED by any Amateur on a hotted up EX500. Are we giving the championsip to skilled riders....or engine builders???
CCS USED to limit amateurs to 750 or less (4 piston). I don't think man has evolved that much in the last 10 years to change that to unlimited. In fact, I think Amatuers should be limited to 600cc !
CCS also had a rule that you had to have "good" results, and a good safety record to move up. It's been done before, it can be done again....but then there would be less entry fees.......ummmmmmmmm nevermind.
??? Another question: If these classes ARE excluded for overall championship status....shouldn't you get a lower entry fee??
:oBLASPHEMER!!!!
MudDawg
The fact that he has tons of money was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if it got loss. I just didn't want to slam the guy.
Mahly
I just got the flyer. It seems you can still run an SV and only miss out on the Middleweight Sportsman class. (F-40 if over 40)
Instead of winning a Regional championship through overall points, how about through most class championships?
Or maybe they should divide up the championships into weight classes? Have an Ultra Lightweight, Lightweight, Middleweight and a Heavyweight class champions.
I think novices should have to ride light weights. If they are a true novice they really can't be learning much on a 1000.
QuoteMudDawg
The fact that he has tons of money was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if it got loss. I just didn't want to slam the guy.
No problem. In fact...I get the same shit leveled at me. I run superbike classes....because it's incredibly simple to figure out who's cheating. You can't hide displacement.
When I get a raft of....kaka...I point out the fact that prior to a pair of engine failures 3 weekends from the end of the year....I had been winning all 5 of my chosen classes in my region. (Lt Superbike, Lt GP, GT Lights, Hvy Sportsman, and Supertwins)
Yes $$$ can help....but you still have to attend the events and keep finishing well to win championships. (Only if they are contested....and the Mid Atlantic region has people doing that for most classes.) Unfortunately the plate system can be bought.
I was none to happy to see an large sphincter muscle (in my opinion) show up to purchase the #1 plate in my region. I had been leading the points until CCS added to SE regional races to the schedule to make up for Rausch Creek not opening.
My take on this...allow up to 5 classes per weekend to count towards the plates. The best 5 finishes out of however many you run. That means more people can give it a shot reasonably....and one person can't realistically buy it easily. Yes they could hedge their bets by running extra races with lower numbers of entries. But it would still pit them against the leading riders. I also think that it would entice more racers into running an extra race or two to try for a plate. JMHO.
It seems that I have answered this question a million times from both sides. The last two seasons I had to justify having the Sportsman/SuperSingles/GP Singles/Formula 40 classes as part of the Track and Overall Championships and now I have to justify excluding them. No matter what we do some one will be unhappy.
By the riders survey, more than 80% of CCS's customers want the Track and Overall Championships to continue. "Nuff said, give the customers what they want.
By the same survey, 100% of those who answered said that Amateurs deserved a purse paying class, and the only class that would allow participation by ALL Amateurs regardless of machine is Unlimited GP. And before you all start that "Amatuers can't ride open bikes" you had better have some facts to back it up. In 1999 and 2000 we studied every crash based on engine size, and guess what! Amateurs on 600's are twice as likely to crash as Amateurs on true Unliimited machines. (Something like 10-12% of 600 riders crashed while 5% of Unlimited riders, on Unlimited machines, tasted the tarmack.) Perception is reality I guess. We didn't take this step lightly and our experience with GTO and Unlimited SuperSport Amateurs is what we based our 2002 classes on.
Please understand one fact, whether it's CCS or WERA or AFM or any other club, if you don't make enough money to cover the bills (and there are lots of them, average anywhere from $30,000 to $100,000 PER weekend, depending on which track you are at), you won't be in business long. Even our affiliate clubs, like the CMRA, have to make sure they show at least a nominal profit to extend their existence. They have been around as long as anybody and if you ask their BOD they will tell you straight up how hard it is to keep our sport rolling.
You know we do have a true touring National Championship, the Formula USA National Road Race Series, and even with the purses second only to AMA Superbike, there are only 20-30 riders/teams that can afford to follow the series coast to coast. If you want to chase a true National Championship that travels from coast to coast (not just East of the Mississippi), sign up and come on.
And did you also realize that NRRS and CCS are willing to put the money where our mouth is? We will pay out more than $750,000 dollars to racers in 2002, and that is cash, not counting the contingency money offered by a manufactuer. That is the largest amount of cash purse offered through one organization.
contd....
Now back to the Sportsman thing. When we split Sportsman into AMateur and Expert, the average turnout per class drops to an amazing 6 riders. While we hope that the numbers increase, that is why we did it, we also realize that the abuses of the system we saw over the last 3-4 years would increase. You could get 48-50 points just for showing up on the grid and that is not the way we want to see the Overall and Track Championships decided.
All this talk of "best 5 classes" and who wins the most class championships is bull. It doesn't solve the underlying problem that you all perceve, that he who spends the most wins. Ask Jeff Purk, or Steve Keener (who also racked up a fair amount of Sportsman points with his SV) or Eric Anderson about what it cost them to race for the Number One plate in 5-6 classes. The equipment, the tires, the leather repair (yes, they all fell down) and what they spent in entry fees is probably the smallest bill they paid. To race and win any championship, regardless of how it is structured, costs money and lots of it. Whether you do the AFM "One Class-One Champion" thing or total points, you spend a bunch of money on equipment. Rob Mesa is a very talented rider, but he also had to spend plenty to wint the AFM #1 just like Chuck Graves did to win the WSMC #1. They spent their money on equipment, not entry fees. One of the pieces you miss in this discussion is how cheap each class entry really is. Go car racing, where for a couple of practices and one 10-15 minute race you pay $185-$250. Compare that to the 3-4 practices and the 4-8 classes you can run with CCS for the same entry fee. You know what makes this possible? You all enter 3-4 classes every weekend and you share in the high cost of track rent and insurance. So everytime one of those guys enters 8-9 classes, he is picking up the slack from the guy that can only run one class and helping us all to keep racing. Enough, I digress.
This is a no-win situation for CCS to be in. We either make the majority happy and the minority unhappy or vice versa. All we can do is to try to give our customers what they ask for, tell them up-front what the rules and procedures are and do our best to follow them so each rider has the protection of a set of fair and evenly enforced rules. Going into the 2002 season you all know how the programs and championships will work, and if you choose to compete for one of these goals, you can be certain we will be behind you all the way. If you choose not to compete for a title, then we will welcome you to any event you feel like attending, and if you choose not to compete at all then we wish you the best of luck on your future endeavours.
I'll get off the soapbox now, it's someone elses turn.
See you at the races.
Kevin
Kevin, I don't want to speak for others, but I don't think anybody implied that entry fees are the main cost in racing. But regardless of where the bulk of the cost comes from, to win those bogus consolidated championships, you need to win everything you enter, or just spend a ton of cash on entering (and I don't mean on entries themselves) lots of races every weekend.
As far as the national championship, if you too recognized the the real championship in your organization is the Formula USA series, why not make it clear by making Daytona just another race in the fall? Is it just about money? It's fine, you can't say if it, i'm not being critical of CCS' motives, but just trying to understand the rationale for a one-event championship held at the same track every year, and a track that doesn't rewards riding ability. Why not just let CCS be what it does best, a series of regional championships? As you said, if someone wants to be a national champion, they'd have to do it the "real" way by running the national series. So is there anything other than $$ keeping CCS from making the fall event at Daytona exactly what the same event is in the spring: a multi-regional event?
By the way, it's great to now have a way to discuss issues with CCS other than by trying to corner officials at the track. :)
QuoteAll this talk of "best 5 classes" and who wins the most class championships is bull. It doesn't solve the underlying problem that you all perceve, that he who spends the most wins. Ask Jeff Purk, or Steve Keener (who also racked up a fair amount of Sportsman points with his SV) or Eric Anderson about what it cost them to race for the Number One plate in 5-6 classes. The equipment, the tires, the leather repair (yes, they all fell down) and what they spent in entry fees is probably the smallest bill they paid. To race and win any championship, regardless of how it is structured, costs money and lots of it.
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This is a no-win situation for CCS to be in. We either make the majority happy and the minority unhappy or vice versa. All we can do is to try to give our customers what they ask for, tell them up-front what the rules and procedures are and do our best to follow them so each rider has the protection of a set of fair and evenly enforced rules. Going into the 2002 season you all know how the programs and championships will work, and if you choose to compete for one of these goals, you can be certain we will be behind you all the way. If you choose not to compete for a title, then we will welcome you to any event you feel like attending, and if you choose not to compete at all then we wish you the best of luck on your future endeavours.
Owwww...I only fell down once this year. The last day of the season....when my engine grenaded into a nice paperweight.
We all know that it takes money to chase a championship for a season....no doubt about it. I was suggesting that an alternative to one or two guys in a region trying to run 15 races a weekend to get the plate...limit the number of classes that will count. Don't discount the finishes...just give tem the top 5. Many riders gie up on trying to get a top 10 plate because it's much more expensive. It was a thought .... and a hope that it might even be able to stimulate more revenue.
As for rules....as long as the series is still around each year...I'll be happy. :)
Why don't they just weight the classes when calculating the total. Use 100% of the first, then 50% of the second etc. This would make if beneficial to run as many classes as possible but would alleviate the problem of it being mandatory. Decent finishes in all classes wouldn't overcome great finishes in a few but they would at least count towards something.
As far as limiting which bikes an amateur can ride, I don't agree. An amateur without his head on correctly is just as likely to wreck an SV650 as they would be to wreck the 1000. It's about knowing your limits and the bike really doesn't factor in for a long time. True that the likelyhood of spinning off the corner may be somewhat increased, but booting a 600 down an extra gear to get a drive off the corner can give equivalent results.
The "winner take all" at the end of the year for amatuer road racing is pretty much standard fare. Even the car guys do it in SCCA with the "Run-offs" at mid-Ohio.
The real problem, or course is that CCS and WERA both use tracks for their "run-offs" that reward money and horsepower over riding skill. If you're down 10hp at Daytona, your name better be Mick Doohan if you plan on winning a "National Championship". Road-Atlanta's back stretch isn't much better.
You'd think that with modern computer technology (Say, a pentium 2 and a decent VB or Java programmer...) CCS could grid by points instead of Wallet Size, and both orgs could use regional point totals (weighted, in the case of different schedules) in conjunction with the season end race to determine the class champions. As it is, you can have professional racers using the CCS ROC as practice to take "Natioanal Championships" away from guys who worked all year, which really blows.
Just IMHO, of course.
- Roach
As for amateurs and liter bikes, I'm all for it. The rule change in '99 allowed me to start racing and with the first SE Amateur Unlimited Supersport Championship in 1999 on a '98 ZX-9R. 8) I had four crashes and none of them were due to too much power. They were due to faulty mechanical work by me, trying to win practice and taking someone else out, another rider took me out, and cold tires(missed the warm up lap.) I probably would have been FASTER on a 600 though.
Ricky,
I think Mr. McKinney is the very reason CCS changed their rules regarding Overall Championships. If all it takes to win an overall regional title is money, and lots of it, then the title, really, in a way isn't worth a whole lot. Regional titles won in this manner DEVALUE the titles' worth! What does it prove about ones ability as a racer?
CCS needs to change their point structure as well, instead of of giving points to everyone who completes at least one lap, they should give points to only those who complete the entire race.
I commend CCS on changing the rules regarding Regional Championships, however, their are still some rules which are in need of modification.
QuoteI don't know what you mean by "mainstream". Points are points. To win and overall regional championship you need money and lots of it. For example; Take expert racer Jeff McKinney and SE regional champion. The man has money and a bike for just about every class. A Ducati 750SS, 748R, 996SPS and a GSXR 750. He is also known as "Iron Butt" cus he races all weekend. He races those bikes in every class and every race they qualify for. If you want to win a regional championship, you need a lot of points.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything bad About Jeff. He is a good rider and a nice guy. And he has won races. But it takes lots of money and he's got it.
As for amateurs riding unlimited bikes, I have to agree but how would this be accomplished? It be too complicated to setup. How long would an amateur race before he's allowed to move up? Would this racer also need to place well? Do you see were I'm going?
I like/want to race twins and do not want to be told what I can race. If for example; CCS said that I had to start off racing small singles, I would just take my business somewhere else and I suspect others would too.
Hey Joe, how's it going?
Anyway, they did change the one lap rule. It does leave the final ruling up to the race director. But I think that if people complain, they will have to rule against the guy purposely doing one lap.
Now if they would just grid by points...
Chuck #30
Hey Chuck,
Long time no see. I was glad to see your name on the results at Daytona. I guess your injuries are healed up?
I didn't realize that they had changed the one lap rule. That's very positive.
Gridding by points...just what I was thinking to make everything good. Not only is it more fair, but I feel it's much safer as well. Safer because, those up front belong up front.
Joe
What's the big deal about amateurs running literbikes? You turn away streetriders on literbikes trying to see what racing is about, and you turn away people who will continue to get their 'fix' on the backroads.
If someone can't handle their bike and crash it doing something dumb, well then they crash. You can't save people from themselves. The more people you get off the street and onto the track the better.