Please only answer this if you are eligible (old enough) for Formula 40.
Personally I don't have deep feelings on this decision either way and being reasonably new I didn't vote being unsure of all of the possible dynamics. I just wanted to say, What a brilliant way to learn and understand the way the group feels. CCS cares what I think! WOO HOO, what a cool organization! You ain't going to find this everywhere. Thank You Kevin. Good show.
By replying no to this poll it tells me that we as older racers are allowed to race these bikes on the track with younger more aggressive riders but are not trusted to race them with older more level-headed racers. We race them anyway so why not against people our own age? It can't be because we would be faster than the other riders. How many times have you heard "If you went to a smaller bike you would probably turn faster times"? Quoted from a WERA official and racing Buisness owner. I race now in GTO and Unlimited Supersport on a GSXR1000. I am not fast but I enjoy. I am 56 yrs old and don't expect to win anything soon. BUT I do enjoy racing and the get together with all of the people at the track. If I am trusted on the track to get in the way of the young guys with this bike why can't I get in the way of older guys too that won't run over me?
MAARC school official says "I don't know how many people that go through our school with open class bikes that take the school and then to race have to sell the big bike and buy a smaller one to race". Something is wrong with that.
Hopefully one would not answer no to this survey because "If I answer YES I won't be able to win with my SV650 anymore". Ask Steve Keener If it's the rider or the bike. I'll bet there aren't too many 1000cc rders who are turning faster times.
Another way to look at this class.... Many of the "older" riders do not want to run with the young guns and their open class machines and prefer to run the middleweight and lightweight classes. However, as everyone knows.... racers are a competative bunch and everytime they hit the course, they want to win or place well.
As my husband said to me yesterday as he looked at this poll.. "I don't want to buy an open class machine just to be competative in Formula 40."
Just another point of view. ;)
I've been trying to see both sides. For this preticular guy, it sounds like he wouldn't be fighting for the lead, so who would care. But, changing the rules could have the possibility of making it no fun for the lightweight guys and that's not right. At Daytona I don't even sign up because a GSXR will take all of the top spots reguardless. Riding your ass off to watch a bigger hp bike roll by on the way to the flag, sucks. Done it and had it done to me, thats the breaks. But I'm not buying a GSXR750 just to get a plack. If I were Mr stilslow, I'd sign up and say it's a 750, then if I found myself in the top 7 I'd back off a little on the straights till I wasn't. Honor system, at this stage who could hang a trophy they didn't earn. Everybody still has a good day and alot of fun. When he gets fast enough to be a contender he'll need a new bike anyway. Now, how ya gonna put that in the rulebook. They can run, but no winning allowed. :)
I don't think that it's a good idea to open up the F-40 to open class bikes. There is already quite a performance gap between the bikes now legal in that class. I've seen people run GS500's to RC51's and Ducati 996's.
The top speed differential between the slower bikes now run and open class machines on some of the longer tracks like Road America could be dangerous.
As for Formula 40 riders not trying to win, guess again. People don't put in all of the time,effort and money that motorcycle racing requires just to go for a ride and be content with last place.
If someone bought the wrong motorcycle, that's a personal problem,and not a reason to change the rules that all of the present F-40 racers abide by.
MJS ccs am #46 midwest
I just want to say that I am a proud member of CCS and I am even more respectful of the organization because of this poll. It was a misunderstanding on my part thinking the open-class bikes were excuded from Formula 40 because the Organization wanted it that way. To see what Mr.Kevin Elliot is doing by letting the people decide what bikes are included in the class makes me eve prouder to be a member....
Hopefully I have not upset anyone by voicing my opinion (which turned out to be wrong). it is good to see the Formula 40 Riders having control of their racing class.
And thanks again Mr. Elliot
Can I vote if I will be eligible for Formula 40 in the fall of 2004? I have a CCS license now.
Can I vote if I will be eligible for Formula 40 in the fall of 2003? I have a CCS license now.
Hey Stillslow,
No need to apoligize here, its what the bulletin board is all about. Your opinion is just as important as everyone elses, unfortunately things may not turn out your way. It takes some balls to stand up for something, there are alot of people that dont participate that have excellent ideas and they never get heard. I thought it was quite refreashing to have a thread that concerned F40 for any reason. I hope that CCS doesnt base their whole decision just on this poll alone, maybe a mailer to all F40 riders Passed and present to get a better feel for the whole country, not just on the 20 or so that voted here!
OK I am done now!
Keith Wilson
CCS/ USGPRU#54 Great Plains-MW
I believe all classes should be competive and sometimes you get against bigger bikes and riders of equal ability you can't win with a smaller bike if each rider is close in ability. Limiting the size would make it more enjoyable for the spectators also because there would be more closer racing. I'm new to racing and didn't get started doing this until i was 41 years old so I'm looking for a class that there is some hope of winning a race or two.
>:( Let those who want to ride(AM) open class bikes join the squids in the (AM) Unlimited races. Take it from me - I got taken out on the last lap(after checkered flag) on the last lap of the last practice by a #$^*&%@ jerk riding an R1 on his third race weekend. I wonder how it feels to win the Practice Trophy?
Hey guys, I'm sorry I said anything. I thought Formula 40 was about the AGE of the rider not the size of his tool. Sceeews me.......
Hey stillslow, sorry about the gruffness of that post from whoever it was. Don't worry about it. From the thoughtful response you posted earlier, I'll be glad to see you grid next to me anytime. It just seems everyone is concerned about closing speed. Justifiably so. So get a cheap 600 or SV (or better yet, a Buell :D) and enjoy that there is still enough vinagar in us to be out there. I didn't race for 25 years and F40 brought me back to life. Not racing sucks, the class you are riding as a backmarker would suck, spring for the right bike and I guarentee you will enjoy it more.
Hurry up and have some fun before alzheimers gets us.
I will go to a smaller bike to get out of racing with Johnny Hotshoe. I suffer from a serious love of racing and motorcycles. The bike I have now is my 105th bike. I have had bikes since 1962. It gets harder and harder to explain to my wife why I race. She says "You're not a kid anymore" I tell her it is safer on the track with everyone going the same way and no driveways to contend with. "I am only going to go as fast as I want to go, the only way I could get hurt is if one of the younger racers runs me off the track" I got my casts off June 6th and can go back to work hopfully July 18th. You guessed it While being lapped I was bumped off the track by Johnny Hotshoe April 13th at VIR. I would like to think it was not intentional but I can't convince myself of that. IF given the choice not to race or race with people who still think a Factory sponsorship is still a possibility, then I would go back to street racing. SAFER.......
CORC HEAVYWEIGHT AND LIGHTWEIGHT--600, 750,OPEN CLASSES, AND EVERYTHING ELSE...SV650, GS500, 250GP BIKES, FZR400 ETC....2 SEPARATE RACES....POSSIBLE?
I'm glad there is a expert/amature seperation. I don't think the grids are big enough to seperate HW/LW. It would be cool though.
Wait a minute, next year I'll have to move up. Instead of expert/amature, lets seperate LW/HW instead. :D
I believe we need to do something to make the racing in formula 40 more competive, no matter what it is either by size of bike or get rid of the big bikes.
What do you mean by "More competitive"? Rider's skills? Size of bikes? AGE? If you are going to limit the size of the bikes to make it safer for the "older guys" , then maybe 600s. But wait, those suckers are fast, too. Maybre 250s. Nope, I've been passed by some mighty fast 250s. Why not limit it by AGE??? Say for Example 40 and over. LW & HW is a good idea.
We won't base our decision on just this poll, but from the response so far, I do not believe a full vote is needed yet. If the rules committee chooses to give this change it's full consideration, we will mail out a questionaire to all the 39 year old's and above asking what they think.
See you at the races....
Kevin, and everyone else, thanks for listening. For or against I thought it needed to be aired. This is not the stone ages when one's bike size makes you a "Superman who can't be beat because he has a "Supercrotchrocket 1300". Look at the results of any class that allows Open class machines and I assure you that most are dominated by lesser size bikes. Let it be AGE that determines the class and not the fear of larger bikes. If like the ads say "The GSXR 1000 is a monster and super-fast, then why isn't every class that accepts them to enter dominated by them?
If we are trusted to compete on them with younger guys it would only seem right to let us compete with people of our own age group on them. If it's a safety factor, I think I can maime myself on a 125cc Gilera or 125cc Derby just as bad, or even a 100cc Hodaka, not to mention a GSXR 750.
LET the FORMULA 40 be classed by age not bike size.
Stillslow, I believe if all us over 40 guys were on the same size bike we good put on a better show for the fans and have more fun ourselves. I know how fast the 600's are because I ride one and I'm able to race with the guys on the same size but when you go up against bigger bikes they seem to just pull away and that just does not make for fun racing, which is why I got into this sport to begin with.
The difference is closing speed. Seriously, lap times have nothing to do with it. Coming up on a lapper at the end of the straight and realizing 1 second before impact how different your speed is, is frightining for everone. And I'm on a 90hp bike.
Then there was a 250 at Summit, I sware the guy rode his ass off, but once the straight came, it seemed embarrassing to pass him. I didn't beat him, even though I was first to the checker, I just out throttled him and there is no reward in that.
The reward comes from the competition. In knowing.
You could turn a 1.12 at Summit and it would be meaningless if not for other riders. The wood is just a symbol. Knowing you earned it fair and square is what it's all about.
When a 750 beats me, I don't worry about it. When a SV beats me, I think about what I can do better. SV's beating me are what keep it fun and challanging.
Going back to the original thought, If 750s are now about the same in top speed and acceleration as the open class bikes, Then what is the reason for limiting the size of the bike. It is unfair to some of the 600s and the SVs, but it is just as unfair to the 600s and SVs to let the 750s compete there,too. My entire comment is "Open class motorcycles should be allowed to compete with 750s. You can't tell me it is the speed of the bike that is the difference".
One small thought, if you turn 1.12 on your Rupp minibike and I turn 1.13 on my"Supercrotchrocket 1700", Who won?
OK, I'm in unfamiliar water here so be gentel. I was believing the liter bikes made up ground on the straight that they lose in the corners with their being heavier than the 750's. If they are not, why would anybody want one.
The Rupp won, I don't understand your point and I think you may have missed mine. A guy on a 125 is in front of you on the last lap, Obviously he rode harder than you could. Now, do you let him have the wood because he did a great job or do you out throttle him to the checker. You out throttle him to the checker. This is still a race. But it doesn't feel right.
If you're on a liter bike or even a 750 you are going to expect to win just from the machine. Isn't that like joining a 40 year old midget basketball league. What would be the point. You would not get the feeling of a winner steping on 40 year old midgets and it would no longer be fun for them. Throw in the added danger of running over them and hurting somebody and you would probably quit very soon.
What motorycle dominates Formula 40? I have not raced in that class so I can only ask you, the guys who are always racing in that catagory. At Summit point I heard the interview with the 2nd place rider who's comment was "Yea but look at what he was riding." Turns out the 2nd place guy was either on an SV or a 600. The guy who won was riding a GSXR750. The point I am trying to make is on the track in the average riders hands the 750 is faster than the 1000. Out of the corner to at Summit I have been "outdrag-raced" to the finish by 750s. My bike will run about 180 top speed and a 750 is supposed to do about 171. Until both are running about 155 or so they are about equal. In the Amateur GTO races there are a lot of 1000s entered but most of the winners are still 750s. In the Expert ranks with front-runners aboard maybe it might make a difference but I wouldn't know.
When I asked for a poll, the intent was to see if it is a safety thing like WERA who's comment is "We wouldn't let any amateur on the track with an open-classed bike". If it is not a safety thing and the bikes run about the same, the only reason the open-classed bikes would not be allowed would be the fear of the Guys who think the 1000s are more than they realy are.
All of my comments are not intended in any way to insult anyone. Just thinking out-loud (so CCS can hear me).
I do see your point in the 750's being faster. I don't know what wins the expert group, probably a 750, but usually a 600 wins in the amature group. I have challenged them to the last turn. So a big inline is twice the horsepower necessary to win. If anything, maybe the 750's and 1000's could start from a 3rd wave, but that might get a little hairy on the first long straight considering the 125's are just getting wound up. The class now is really too diverse, opening up a larger varience, I don't know, maybe booting the 750's would be smarter. When you think you are reeling in an expert, to find it is a lapper, the space vanishes instantly. Maybe now would be a good time for a 750 rider to pipe up and tell me more about going that fast. It could just be my slow reflexes.
I said earlier that I would be trading down to run the Formula 40 class (being 56 yrs old). I will probably be buying an SV650 because I want to ride other classes also. POINT; If I am trading down and want to be competitive (might even win one, stranger things have happened) then I need to be trading down to a GSXR 750. If they run about the same, what is the point in trading? JUST to loose money in the trade. There is something seriouly wrong with that picture. I would hate to make that trade and then they change the rules.
One thing I would NOT want to do is have a rule change that would chase away riders from the class. There are not enough of us old farts who want to risk injury to participate in this sport now. If you are a participant of the Formula 40 Class Please take the time to vote.
Hey Stillslow, I just got back from Summit and if you're planning on winning F40, GSXR750 will do it. This was the worst place i've finished all year, 7th, and nothing but 600's and a 750 in front. Oh, and a Duc, so forget I said anything about a SV. The pace is deffinitly picking up.
Ok everyone I just got back from Gateway and we were all riding 600's and the racing was intense to say the least. You could have thrown a blanket over all of us so it goes to say that this class should be limited to middleweight class bikes only in my opinion. I had a lot of fun for the first time racing in this class because somebody on a big bike didn't run away from everybody. The only small bike in the race was a 125 and he was an expert who knew how to ride but on the straights I damn near run him over each time because of closeing speed alone. I know everybody has a different opinion on this subject and I don't want to make anybody mad but this is what I believeshould be done. Remember to always keep the rubber down and race safe, we are to old to get hurt.
I agree 100%. Safer for over forty guys. That's why the class was formed. BUT if you let some bigger faster more dominant bikes compete, let all bigger faster bikes compete. This falls right in line with Baltobuell, LW & HW Formula 40. ;) ;) ;) ;)
I have to agree with allowing people that fall into an age bracket run what they choose if the class is actually based on the criteria of guys age 40 and over. Like what has been stated in prior responses actually the gixxer 750 poses more of a win threat to the smaller bikes than any of the liter bikes out there. I do understand the closing speed concerns but again with this being an over age 40 class then it should be less of a problem here than just about anywhere else. I think that most guys in this class understand that on Monday they have to go back to work and they are not going to "be discovered for that factory ride" so the maturity factor should help alleviate problems. Yes I do ride a liter bike and I would love to be able to ride in this class as I feel this would be a safer enviroment to have my fun racing. I do not think it is any great secret that a smaller bike is easier to go fast on but the liter bikes are just so much fun to ride! Try hammering the throttle wide open exiting the apex of a corner on a liter bike like you do on a 600 and the results may not be pretty. I think you would be suprised at how many of the "little" bikes would be in front of the bigger bikes! At least give it try, I know this is one OLD FART that would love to ride in a class that did not contain "ego" factor that results in crashfest from taking STUPID chances.
Thank God there is at least one person that understands ; :) :) :) :) :)
I too have a liter bike and would like to be able to race with the other old guys instead of with all the young guys in the other unlimited classes. I would favor a Heayweight and a Lightweight F40 class like they run at WSMC to separate the 600s, SVs, and smaller bikes from the 750s and open class bikes.
750's are big enough! I can't imagine racing against an open bike at Road America on my 600. Now Gingerman, thats another story! ;D
You already race against gixxer 750's and it is a pretty well proven fact that they turn better lap times on almost all if not all the tracks than any of the liter bikes. Actually there are very few tracks that the straights are long enough to even give the liter bikes an advantage over the gixxer 750 even there!
Give the old guys with the big bikes a break and let us join in on the fun too!
When you vote on the topic keep an open mind about what bikes actually turn the fastest lap times. Don't look at it from the point of view " I only have a small displacement bike and I can't keep up with the 750's now" Most of the liter bike guys can't either. Most older guys who have liter bikes bought the bike and then later decided to go to the track because it was safer than "racing" on the steets. Most of us got our license so we could race against older guys like ourselves only to find out that we can't race in that class because our bikes are too "fast". Every crotchrocket person in the world knows it is not the bike but the rider. If it were otherwise I should be able to smoke Steve Keener with my liter bike over his SV650. AIN'T happening. Give us old liter guys a break, let us ride with people our own age. ;) ;)
True, the rider is what usually makes fast lap times, but how many times does this happen; you close up or pass on the brakes or the corners only to have the big bike blow pass you in between? You have to have some kind of limit on size. Sell your litre bike, buy a 600 or 750, and quit yer bitchen. Oh, that won't work. You can't have any fun on the street with a smaller bike. :P
OK guys...
Let's think about this - The start finish on most race tracks are on the front straight. Where do the liter bikes have the advantage over the smaller ones, on the straights.
Every person who races has a competative streak. If they didn't they wouldn't be racing. My husband runs a lightweight bike and he does have the advantage in the corners and can out brake and out corner a bigger bike, but on the straights he is at a disadvantage.
The only way it would be fair to run a liter bike in Formula Forty is to have a LW and HW class. Until CCS would have two different classes - I don't want the rule changed.
My 2 seconds
Dawn ;)
(official lap timer for anyone who gives me a beer)
Why would I sell my liter bike? It's paid for. The pleasure I would derive from racing in Formula 40 Is not worth the pain and suffering I would have from taking such a loss on the liter bike. As for pregnant dogin', how many posts (read opinions) have you offered for everyones amusement?
As for long straight vs. turns and speed. Doesn't it come down to lap time? If your husband turns 1:21 and I turn 1:22, didn't he win. We started from the same place.
I am not trying to start trouble with anyone. All I'm saying is "If the GSXR 750 by all tests is consistantly faster in all respects than 99% of the liter bikes then it would only seem fair to let the "slower" liter bikes race with them in a class that was formed by AGE." If you don't like my opinion don't read my opinion. Read someone's opinion that you agree with. My opinion is because I have a liter bike and yours is because you have a 600 and are afraid of "liter bikes". If this is UNtrue. lets race.(In the Formula 40 class) ;) ;) ;)
Still Slow:
Let us know if and when you ever get to Blackhawk Farms raceway. This way we can compare our lap times.
Dawn :)
Correct me if I am wrong but are not the majority of road courses in this country consist of 70% or better corners with the remaing 30% or so being straightaways? The smaller bikes are generally known to carry much more corner speed than a liter bike with equal riders aboard. So if the track consist of over 2/3's corners and 1/3rd straights then the smaller bikes should pull out enough distance thru the corners that the big bike would have too much to make up to do it on the straights alone. Granted each class of bikes has its strengths and weaknesses but it appears that those are only looked at one sided. It is fine that the 600's are faster thru the corners as that is their strong point but with the bigger bikes strength being the straight everybody starts crying about the speed and being passed on the straight. I also agree that both bikes are running the same track so WHOEVER has the best laptimes will be the winner. If the guy on the liter bike stays close enough to pass you on the straight don't think he is not working his rear off to keep in close enough contact to be able to make that pass. I also do not agree that selling the liter bike to be an option but not because of a money loss situation but rather the lessened FUN factor I would get out of something like an SV or a 600 class bike. Granted my liter bike may not turn the lap times (with me on board anyway!) of some of the smaller bikes but its like being aboard a raging beast or a stallion instead of a gelding as the beast will try to spit you off at any given opportunity much more so than some of the smaller bikes. So not only are you racing your competetors, and racing the track but you have the added sense of taming the wild beast sort of. I do not expect those who have not experienced the liter bike thrill to understand but it does add a lot to the track experience and does add an extra sense of acomplishment regardless of the lap times. I guess that we will all keep our opinions but with the 750 class of bikes pretty much headed the way of the dinasaur then I guess that the formula 40 class as it stand now will need to change its name to something like old guys on little bikes as everything will be 600's or less!
Whoa Dawn, This is starting to take on a chest beating attitude. If you want to compare lap times, that's fine but hopefully yours are not as bad as mine. I didn't anywhere in my scribblings say anything about being fast. That is one of the reasons I want to not ride GTO and Unlimited SS. I don't care that I am not a front runner, I think it is safer to ride with people who are not ate up with the "Gotta win" attitude. I know the people in the F40 class want to win also but not to the point that they or the people they ride with can't go to work on Mondays. I probably woudn't be a front runner in F40 even with my Super-power faster-than-light liter bike but the percentage of chance of getting run over is less. Isn't that why they invented that class anyway. If the liter bikes were added to the F40 class it probably won't change the outcome of the race. The normal winners will still be the normal winners and the rest of US will still finish where we normally finish, but the US has a better chance of finishing. It's hard to explain how chocolate cake taste to someone who has never tasted chocolate cake, but I'm trying. :-/ :-/ :-/ :-*
I don't totally disagree with you. Most likely, results would not be much different with the big bikes included. I guess it's the thought of the guy that shows up on a 1000, whose fast on anything, and kicks everybodies butt. Everybody would start crying about how it's not fair. I feel that there has to be a limit. At Gateway this year, the top 6 bikes were nose to tail across the finish line. If it's not broke...
Looking at it from your point of view, I agree. Looking at it from a liter bike owners point of view, Ya can't blame me for trying. When it comes down to it, the only one that wins is CCS because there will be more entries in F40. I was told by the local race school here " You would not believe how many people go through this school on monster bikes and then find out they can't use them to race with." I can't begin to tell you how people who own 600s feel about class structure because I have never been there, but when it comes to liter bikes...... Have you ever noticed that most 125 and 250 two stroke riders seem to congrigate together? Same with Liter bikes.
Still Slow:
I wasn't chest beating and I'm sorry if you took offense. What I do know is Paul can have some lap times that are close to the liter bikes, but he has to ride his rear off to do it. Still, a good rider on a liter bike even if they can't corner as well still has the advantage.
Dawn ;)
We are getting nowhere following this same path of thought, what if the liter bikes anbd maybe the 750's were to start from a "second" wave behind the smaller bikes giving the smaller bikes a 10 to 15 second advantage at the start? Then IF a guy on a liter bike works his way to the front it will be a well deserved win and the guys on the smaller bikes will not feel that they are put at a disadvantage. I agree with stillslow winning would be cool but not the MAIN focus of a lot of guys AND IF NOTHING ELSE THE LITER GUYS WOULD BE IN THE BACK WITH THEIR OWN LITTLE INTERNAL WAR RAGING but at least we would have the opportunity to race in what we feel would be a safer enviroment and still offer the same or more amount of enjoyment due to the more relaxed atmosphere. What do think a workable compromise here?
It's just not fair to exclude any class motorcycle if the pre- requisite is age. It would benefit all who participate in F40 to have a LW (up to and including 675cc) and a HW (676cc and up).If we can convince CCS to go along with the extra effort on their part we (I think) would all be happy. Yes or no? ::)
I agree. :)
I don't know how to set up a poll. Maybe we can get Kevin Elliot to do it. What do you think Kevin ;D ;D ;D
I expect due to race weekend time constaints adding a "new" race would be difficult and maybe not even possible but to have a race within a race would not tax the weekend schedule and still allow everyone to get their enjoyment. Basically it would be like an expert and novice race with the wave starts only it would be done by bike classification instead. Actually it could be scored as two seperate races with a lw and hw divisions so where and how you finished would tallied in your respective class.
I agree splitting f40 into two classes: 0-650cc & 651cc & over would be the best of both worlds. Then I could snuff the 750's and the 600cc riders who are afraid to get beat (by the guy that is fast on everything he rides) would no longer have to worry.
By the way, I own a 01 gixer 750 and 02 1000 and no way my 750 could outrun my 1000 on most if not all of the tracks I have been to. It's all in the rider.
Well I have a GSXR 750 right now. I am planning on running my first F40 race at daytona ROC. But I still run in AMA Superbike so I am getting rid of the 750. They changed the rules to allow 1000,s so that's what I need to get. I would love to run F40 but if they don't change the rules I guess that will be my first and last F40 race. I can see your point, you guys on small bikes. But telling the 1000 guys to sell it and get a 600 come on. What if they told you to sell yours and get a 1000. I think age should be what counts. By the way I think I will be faster on the 1000 than a 750 or I wouldn't change. We'll see I guess when I get one. Also I don't think for a min. that I could beat someone like Bostrom at Daytona me on a 1000 him on a 600. Size is'nt everything.
I found out this weekend the only way we can get a rule change is to write Kevin and tell him what we want so I think everybody should break out the pens and paper and tell Kevin we want lw and hw classes for the F40 class,just run them at the same time on the track.
Sounds good to me.
The only problem with splitting classes is that there are not enough riders for the contengency money in that class. I race Great Plaines, the largest field was at Road America, that was 7 in the amature class!The guy that won was on a 750. He got the holeshot, and was gone.I took third, I was racing with 2nd who was on a 600, we had a race for a few laps,but I was on a bike that was already sold, so I did not want to crash it. There was no way we could have caught the 750.Now you want to put a 1000 in the field, no way,unless you are going to open it up to superbike rules.
A 1000 or a 750 you said it your self "he was gone".
So what doe's it matter. If your on a 600 or smaller your getting motored. I want to ride in the class but next year I hope to have a 1000. I would be willing to let the money go to the lightweight guys. Belive me however much it is won't make any difference anyway. ;D
QuoteThe only problem with splitting classes is that there are not enough riders for the contengency money in that class. I race Great Plaines, the largest field was at Road America, that was 7 in the amature class!The guy that won was on a 750. He got the holeshot, and was gone.I took third, I was racing with 2nd who was on a 600, we had a race for a few laps,but I was on a bike that was already sold, so I did not want to crash it. There was no way we could have caught the 750.Now you want to put a 1000 in the field, no way,unless you are going to open it up to superbike rules.
Hey, I got the holeshot in that race! (on a 600) Lost the lead by turn 3. By turn 5 he (the guy on the 750)was out of sight. Anyways, bring on the 1000's. It'll give us something to talk about next year. ;)
How about this, we'll consider anyone on a 1000 the same as a AMA pro, and the'll be expected to pull off on the last lap. ;D Seriously, the reason for size limits in this class is closing speeds. They allow 125s in Formula 40. Whats the closing speed of a GSXR1000 on a 125 GP bike going into turn 1 at Road America? :o Yes, I know, it's just a little bit more than a 750. Hey, thats an idea. A 600cc limit. Now your talking! :)
I agree completely that running a HW supersport bike is big enough for F40. I think a 750cc bike can go plenty fast for anyone.
Having owned and done track days and street raced a GSXR1000, here's the advantage over the 750 learned by repeated experience:
1) Above 145 or so, the extra HP pulls you away. Below that, its real close. How often do you spend time up in that region, other than Road America?
2) Biggest advantage, is more torque throughout the RPM range. May make shifting less, and certainly less of a deficit if you miss a shift or the gearing you use forces a compromise in a corner or 2.
However, 2 can be mitigated by the tendency to high side unless you are real delicate with the throttle. :O And the 750 comes with superior forks.
At Gateway, the lap record is held by a 750. Rumor has it that it may not be a 750 lol
I think you'll notice in the "unlimited" sprint pro classes there are still some very competitive 750 based bikes. In endurance racing though, the broader power band and less strain on the bigger motor makes the 1000 the bike of choice.
IMHO, I say let 'em in, and run 2 sub-classes. Sport bike sales are stratifying into 3 levels: Small (GS,SV, EX), Medium (600ish), and Large (900+). The 750 is going the way of the dinosaur. CCS needs to respond to the realities of people wanting to ride their race-legalized street bike, at least at first.
Of course, I'm not eligible unless they implement the age + bike age rule, so ignore everything above, except I wanted to shed some light on the myth of the all powerful 1000 at the club level.
I don't care what you ride. If your good your good. Does anyone here that is a top 3 finisher or class champion say it was the bike that did it. It doesn't make sense to not let someone ride in a class because of the "name" on a bike. If you can win the class then YOU won the class, not the bike.Don't let me here about closeing speeds, IF you had a lap time of 1:21 and I had a lap time of 1:22 guess what, You beat me to the finish line, and if that continued for 5 laps, guess what, you beat me by 5 seconds. If I race a 1000 and Rich Oliver rides a 125 and we raced in the same class would I have to warn him to be careful going into the turns because I ride a 1000 CC motorcycle and I might run into him? NOT..Rich would probably tell me he doesn't care what I bring to the track, just don't get in his way.(humor) Makes no difference, it ain't going to change anyway. Now I'm really DONE! :-X :-X :-X :-X
Stillslow......if what you say is true.....then WHY do we have all of the different classes running in CCS ?
The skill level between MOST of the people who race at the CCS level is pretty close, unlike the comparison that you made between yourself and Rich Oliver.
Try again. :o
S T I L L--- comes down to lap times and the rider. Go to the guy who won his class this year and tell HIM " It wasn't you , it was the bike you had." Anyone who knows and rides with that guy (girl) know the skill he has on ANY bike.
The point is if you are Joe average rider and you normally finish mid-to-rear of the pack,putting a 1000 under you to race against 750s is not the thing that is going to make you the "Superpilot". We are all basically "average" with the exception being those guys who always win. Why punish all the riders that bought bikes and THEN decided to race? As some of the other writers who have ridden 1000s said, "There is not enough difference in the 750s and 1000s to make any kind of difference." For now the 750 guys say no to expanding the class but what do they do when it is their turn, when there is no specific class for a 750.
What's the difference, it ain't gonna change anyway! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
A Schlock says:
"I'm new to racing and didn't get started doing this until i was 41 years old so I'm looking for a class that there is some hope of winning a race or two."
Don't bet on it, Junior. I'm coming to F40 in 2003, and if the open class rule passes, I'll be riding a supercharged V Max! How do you like your RC51 now? I'll get you, and your brother too!
K3
Jeezie, you guys are still debating this?
The F40 is supposed to be fun, where an ol' guy can still win. Running behind somebody just to burn em to the checker with horsepower just don't seem right. Everybody knows the 750's are probably going to go the fastest. I don't think they should be allowed either! But, they are. Realistically, the guys that just enjoy getting out there because they love the sport, Usually ride TZ's or some other real lightweight. It costs a fortune to run a big bike and it's not supposed to be a contest of who's got the most money. Yes, some of you already have middle weight and open class bikes. Get a 600 or an SV for 4 grand and learn to ride it. You will learn more and have alot more fun actually racing with somebody. I hope they do try a LW HW format, but till then.
QuoteDon't bet on it, Junior. I'm coming to F40 in 2003, and if the open class rule passes, I'll be riding a supercharged V Max! How do you like your RC51 now? I'll get you, and your brother too!
K3
Um.... K3
How do you plan on turning the ol' V-Max? How about running extended forks on the front with a pizza cutter and a car slick on the back. ;D
Dawn ;)
K3
Hey for one I won't ride that RC51 it's an elephant and it sounds good that you are going to race in F-40. Are you still going to need my help during the weekend to keep that V-max together, if so I'll be glad to help any fellow racer even if he runs my class and beats me. See you at the banquet where we can truly talk about this.
Craig
I believe Baltobuel is right. The 750s dominate every class they race, even the Unlimited Supersport. MOST riders (going by what's been told to me by different Roadracing schools) will turn faster times on it than any 1000. The original question was, if the open class bikes and the 750s turn basically the same times (with the upper hand going to the 750s) then why are the open class bikes excluded from racing with them? If it is because they are too fast, then the statistics (look at the CCS results page) show CCS should eliminate the 750s from F40. Given a 750 or open class bike a top 2 finisher will win every time over a 600. From experience, it won't make a difference to a mid to rear of the pack rider. From what I have been told CCS put a cap on the size of the bikes in F40 because they didn't want to "turn older Amateurs loose on the track with that much horsepower." The whole debate is about that reason. If the 750s and the open class bikes are about equally as fast and are powered by basically the same (usable) horsepower in Amateur hands, then allow them to race together. And don't use the age thing as a weapon against us. We are not so feeble we can't manage an open class bike on a track. Some of us may be just average riders but the love of the sport is why we do it.
Why bother, it ain't gonna happen ayway :-X :-X :-X
If you want to race an open class bike... sign up for an open class race. This one class is the same as running HW supersport. If you want to bring a LW bike to a HW race you can. F40 is no diffrent than a HW race other than age.
Who decided that? Originally The 750s were not allowed in F40.
Everyone is a rule maker.
It doesn't matter, it ain't gonna change anyway. :-X
Craig said:
Are you still going to need my help during the weekend to keep that V-max together, if so I'll be glad to help any fellow racer even if he runs my class and beats me.
God knows, I can destroy a Yamaha! Of course I'll need your help. If I didn't need your help, why else would I pit next to you? ;D I plan on getting my butt kicked plenty this year. The whole expert thing seems scary to me. Oh, well. Before last year, I was pretty used to getting my butt kicked. It's just that I'd kind of gotten used to trophys...K3
K3
Hey it's no problem helping you out I enjoy your company anyway and by the way there is no l in my name. You being a writer should be more careful. So you have to go expert next year?
Craig
QuoteWho decided that? Originally The 750s were not allowed in F40.
I think they allowed the 750 in to make folks that wanted to go fast happy. I think there should be limits somewhere. F40 just reached it at HW. ;)
Also, This weekend I was out kicking it with a couple of guys on Suzuki Busa's and me on my GSX-R750. I stayed within 100 feet of them. Who needs the extra displacement? ;D
QuoteAlso, This weekend I was out kicking it with a couple of guys on Suzuki Busa's and me on my GSX-R750. I stayed within 100 feet of them. Who needs the extra displacement? ;D
Eddie:
You stayed within 100 feet of them, but for how long?
Dawn ;)
QuoteAlso, This weekend I was out kicking it with a couple of guys on Suzuki Busa's and me on my GSX-R750. I stayed within 100 feet of them. Who needs the extra displacement?
eddie
does this mean that you favor liter bikes in formula-old farty ?
QuoteEddie:
You stayed within 100 feet of them, but for how long?
Dawn ;)
Till they got off the throttle...smarty!
Quoteeddie
does this mean that you favor liter bikes in formula-old farty ?
Exactly the oposite... I think a 750 is good enough to do the job. I did ok on my 600cc bike this year. ;D
and by the way there is no l in my name. So you have to go expert next year?
No L??? You mean I've been pronouncing it wrong all this time? It seemed so natural... ;D
Yes, with only 1500+ points, 40 trophys, and six regional championships, CCS has the NERVE to FORCE me to go expert. Bastiges! Seriously, though. I don't feel like an expert. I'm just REALLY persistant. If you can't beat guys like Sorenson and Jessie, outlast 'em! (Actually, I did beat each of them a few times. Mechanicals & crashes count, don't they?)
K3
Well I ran the F40 race at Daytona. But I already had a 1000 so I pulled in on the last lap.I went from last to 4th then pulled off. But I don't think it was because I was on the 1000. Because I went slower than I went on my 750 in March. I was there just to have fun and get the bike lined out. By the last day it was working pretty good.
K3
So now that you have the spelling down correct when are you going to do that peice about us?
Craig
Craig, E me. racerk3@aol.com. We'll get that article done this winter. I'd get more done if I didn't have to work three jobs to pay for my racing habit...
K3