As I plan and prepare for a 2015 season, I realize that I still feel very strongly about the formula of low cost, high parity racing.
Below I have formulated a simple rules proposal which will allow current riders to remain in the game with minimal investment and open the door for new riders and the newer machines.
2015 CCS rules proposal for GTUL and ULTB:
As per the request of CCS, I prepared a brief rules proposal which I believe would satisfy the desire of all members and potential members of the ultra light racing scene whether they are interested in building their machine or running a super sport style class. Please see my email to the CCS rules committee below.
kevin.elliott@ccsracing.us
eric.kelcher@ccsracing.us
To whom it may concern at CCS racing,
I am writing in response to your request for 2015 rules recommendations. This proposal pertains to the two ultra light classes, Ultra light thunder bike and GT Ultra light.
The majority of riders who contend these classes are those who are looking for an economical entry point to the sport. As demonstrated by the Florida riders in 2012 and 2013, there is also a high demand for horse power parity. While some of the other classes provide the horsepower parity, they are costly to contend due to the high power output which causes a higher level of tire consumption. Allowing for modifications eliminates many would be contenders who do not have the resources from competition.
While previous requests to revert the class to 250 Super sport have been denied on the basis that the 300cc machines have been introduced, the majority of the machines on the grid are still stock 250cc machines.
Therefore I would like to present the following solutions.
1. I propose that the GTUL class be revised to limit the modifications to that of a Super Sport class. With the exception of the the 250cc machines which should be allowed to change cylinders, pistons and fuel induction system in order to increase the displacement size to 300cc as well as allow proper fuel metering for the change. The compression should not be more than that of the current Kawasaki Ninja 300. The air cooled 350 twin stipulation could remain as is.
2. I propose that the ULTB class remain as is with no changes, therefore remaining the builders class.
In implementing these changes, both the existing 250 machines and the new comer 300 cc machines will both have a fair place to race, while still keeping the costs down for the GTUL riders. Those who desire to modify would also have a place to demonstrate their abilities on a level playing field in ULTB.
In implementing these changes you will be providing a platform for all riders, not just that of the stock mind set or modified mind set.
Thank you for your consideration.
I look forward to your response.
Regards,
Miguel Chirino
CCS Expert #38
Racers,
If you are in favor of the above proposal (spec member or not) or have something to add or remove. Please send your proposal to CCS and let them hear your opinion.
CCS asks that you call, write or email your proposal prior to the November deadline.
kevin.elliott@ccsracing.us
eric.kelcher@ccsracing.us
www.ccsracing.us (http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccsracing.us%2F&h=OAQE-8Xn4&enc=AZNYWwPkIPF0dR2LdauV7BJea8hhSm1eGTTvHzetshlbEemEPrjkbNCZRxZccJ24M3ETws_n1ZWkLM4cFmNA7Q-nM5SjXEx64M4gsHRpPnhwenuiZtMvVEqobHxPg6YBPtvCriDtsuvWuuqda5NnMful&s=1)
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Nice proposal. It doesn't address the new Yamaha or KTM though.
Just curious how you would, or if you would, include those two bikes.
The way I look at it, the more manufactures involved, the better it is for the sport overall.
Quote from: Capitalview on October 26, 2014, 04:49:30 PM
Nice proposal. It doesn't address the new Yamaha or KTM though.
Just curious how you would, or if you would, include those two bikes.
The way I look at it, the more manufactures involved, the better it is for the sport overall.
I already sent the request to Eric Kelcher to add the R3 and RC390 to ULTB and it was shot down. He suggested those bikes would be competitive in the 500 SS class. I don't agree but I'm not going try pushing the subject. I get the feeling you could propose whatever you want and it's not going to matter.
We also need more bikes in the 500 class.My old fzr 400 lap times are the same as the good running 250's.Only advantage I got is top speed and braking that is it.The new ktm and yamaha should be good in the 500 class.The CBR 500 is good in the turns but in a straight line it isn't that strong.EX 500 may be stronger in a straight line but doesnt handle or stop as good.
Thanks. I am of a slightly different opinion about the matter of multiple machines running within a class. I believe that there should be light weight classes which are less about the machine participation and more about the cost / horsepower parity and rider involvement. This includes factoring in the purchase price of the machine and what it would cost for someone to have to replace or update their machine in order to remain genuinely competitive. I can tell you that, if I am put in the position to have to completely replace my 2012 machine already, I will be forced to take time off as I simply have too many other commitments at this time.
We see many manufacturer supported classes come and go as they are simply looking to sell bikes. Which is completely understandable; However, I would like to see a little more persistency of a given machine. The CCS ULTB class was initially presented as a super sport Ninja 250 class when proposed in 2011, which is why I signed on. We had a fantastic 2012. In 2013 the 300's were released and kept us on the tip of our toes hoping that none would show up. Almost immediately, the 250 riders who signed up for a SS 250 class were out classed, unless they start modifying. For 2013 we asked for another class where the 250's could run without incurring a significant expense and we were given GTUL (in Florida it was run as a 250 Spec class). 2013 was awesome. In 2014, the class was adopted nation wide under ULTB rules, once again putting 250 riders at the disadvantage.
The goal of my rules proposal is to try to find a middle ground and regain some stability. Introducing more machines into the mix at this point would hinder this. I am with CCS on this one. I would monitor the progress of these machines in other classes. As time goes by and if participation permits, implement something that would accommodate them.
Quote from: Capitalview on October 26, 2014, 04:49:30 PM
Nice proposal. It doesn't address the new Yamaha or KTM though.
Just curious how you would, or if you would, include those two bikes.
The way I look at it, the more manufactures involved, the better it is for the sport overall.
I think fairness is important. If the R3 and RC390 won't be allowed in ULTB, then the Ninja 300 should not be allowed either. There's certainly enough 250 ninjas to go around for a while. And there will only be a few 300 owners that get bumped out of that class.
Quote from: Zaph on October 26, 2014, 09:12:31 PM
I already sent the request to Eric Kelcher to add the R3 and RC390 to ULTB and it was shot down. He suggested those bikes would be competitive in the 500 SS class. I don't agree but I'm not going try pushing the subject. I get the feeling you could propose whatever you want and it's not going to matter.
I've compared the specs of the KTM, R3 and CBR5. I think the KTM would the fastest of them. R3 and CBR would be pretty close, but the R3 would likely be better. All will smoke the Ninjas.
Don't count out the Ninja 250, in the right hands it's just as capable as the other bikes.
Even still for the sport to grow and low cost, high reward racing to make a difference in this country the class has to evolve with the current production machines.....
500 Supersport is a good place to start. With a bike no longer in production your basically running a vintage class with out the time warp. I'm all for it but I'm also a realist..... and with the addition of a possible pro level light weight class endorsing small displacement bikes we would be foolish to pigeonhole a class to one bike just cause we all have one.... OH and I'm trying to sell our Ninja 250....haha :cheers:
While I would love to get into the UL class, I just won't spend the money on a 250 when manufacturers are coming out with modern options.
Yep as I've seen Mazz when he rides his 250 his cornering speed is the same as on his SV 650!Just imagine how fast he could go on the KTM RC 390 for the 500 class,no one gonna catch up!Hey Miguel Chirino i don't see in the results that any 300 is winning any races so how is it too fast for you compare to your 250 when your beating them?
Quote from: apriliaman on October 28, 2014, 06:52:49 PM
Yep as I've seen Mazz when he rides his 250 his cornering speed is the same as on his SV 650!Just imagine how fast he could go on the KTM RC 390 for the 500 class,no one gonna catch up!Hey Miguel Chirino i don't see in the results that any 300 is winning any races so how is it too fast for you compare to your 250 when your beating them?
It finally happened at Daytona this year. A few 300s showed up and ran away with it. The 250s were completely out gunned. We also have three out of the 20 250s that decided to modify in Florida. They are also running away with it as we are all running spec bikes.
We can all decide to modify our 250s but by the same token so can the 300s, which really opens a can of worms and tons of questions about which bike and which mods produce the best package.
The reason for my proposal is to try to put some type of cap on at least one of the classes, other wise it really boils down to who has the most $$.
ok guess there is a top speed difference between both bikes.
Quote from: CHIRINOM on October 29, 2014, 12:10:54 PM
other wise it really boils down to who has the most $$.
Sadly that is racing...... sucks but it's the truth. (obviously it's not all about $$$)
Quote from: Swiest on October 30, 2014, 09:12:18 AM
Sadly that is racing...... sucks but it's the truth. (obviously it's not all about $$$)
I would like to agree but there are several super stock classes for the larger machines. To me it makes sense to have super stock classes for the lighter weight machines as these are usually where people start off. They consume less tires and the tires are much less expensive. If tires were not a factor, I would be running 1000 super stock all day long.
Other clubs are successfully running the light weight Super Stock classes. WERA has been successfully running E super stock (250cc stock class) for several years and Jennings has stock 250 Endurance races every year in November.
I am a Florida rider. I do not know about you but I would much rather race at my home tracks then spend 16 hours drive time and $300 in fuel every month.
In addition we have over 20 riders who support the idea of keeping their machines stock. If the racers running spec were willing to throw the $$ and time into their engines, we would not be having this conversation.
The AMA Harley XR1200 class is about the closest spec racing you will get.Yet it is still the same 5 riders in the front of the race.
Well CCS SS is not very stock and still takes $$$ to have top bike. The 250's not near as much but anything faster it does.
Quote from: Swiest on October 31, 2014, 09:25:29 AM
Well CCS SS is not very stock and still takes $$$ to have top bike. The 250's not near as much but anything faster it does.
This is true and precisely my point. "Not very stock" is still much much better than wide open and "near as much" is much better than all you can spend. Which is how it is now. The proposal factors in both mind sets. Build it until it blows and Keep it simple and cheap. Both would have more opportunity under this structure as they will both be able to race up a class. GTUL to ULTB and ULTB to GTL, LWGP ect....
As I am sure you have determined I am of the simple economical mind set. Take a moment and imagine a class ((without taking displacement or machine into consideration)), where you can show up knowing that you are on exactly the machine that is capable of winning that race every time and be sure that you will be racing for position, whether racing for 1st or 10th. Now imagine that the entire weekend INCLUDING TIRES cost less than $250. Sound pretty awesome? Think that that may attract new riders and grids of 20+?
You bet. We have proven it.
Not sure why CCS wouldn't allow the 300s and the KTM in. Then again, CCS does kooky stuff with their rules. For 2015, WERA is letting in the Kawi and Honda 300s, the 321 Yamaha, and the KTM 390 single in E superstock. The 250s will be in the same race but will be scored on their own.
GTUL is a FL only class, right? I can't seem to find it in the Rulebook. So what you're proposing is modifying the UL TB rules to supersport mods only except for the 250 which can be bumped to 300?
Is the Ninja 250 still in production or did they ditch it for the 300?
The problem as I see it is two-fold- the FL riders are running a "class within a class" where there is a gentleman's agreement to run SS rules. This has caused some drama when people from outside the facebook circle show up. Second is the 500 class has not been added to the FL schedule, so the newer bikes will not have a place to race as it stands.
I feel for the 250 riders, I think a spec class is a great idea for entry level racing. Unfortunately, we are now seeing the problem with a spec class, you have to buy the spec bike, whatever that may be, and if the manufacturer upgrades the machinery, well, it's no longer spec :(
Quote from: Gino230 on November 02, 2014, 02:07:57 PM
GTUL is a FL only class, right? I can't seem to find it in the Rulebook. So what you're proposing is modifying the UL TB rules to supersport mods only except for the 250 which can be bumped to 300?
Is the Ninja 250 still in production or did they ditch it for the 300?
The problem as I see it is two-fold- the FL riders are running a "class within a class" where there is a gentleman's agreement to run SS rules. This has caused some drama when people from outside the facebook circle show up. Second is the 500 class has not been added to the FL schedule, so the newer bikes will not have a place to race as it stands.
I feel for the 250 riders, I think a spec class is a great idea for entry level racing. Unfortunately, we are now seeing the problem with a spec class, you have to buy the spec bike, whatever that may be, and if the manufacturer upgrades the machinery, well, it's no longer spec :(
GTUL was implemented nation wide this year and run at the ROC. I am not asking to revise ULTB. ULTB can stay as is, which allows the 300s and mods... I am asking to revise one class, GTUL (the class which originated in FL) to SS rules with the exception that the 250 be allowed to bump up to 300. That way our 20 +/- riders can stay in the mix without having to invest huge $$ and anyone looking to run a new 300 can also participate without spending big $$ to be competitive. The only expense to the 250 rider would be the same as it would be to freshen a motor for the season.
There has not been any drama with people whom are out of the circle. We have had a couple of issues with only a couple of teams who are perfectly aware of what we are doing, running out side of the agreement. My take on the matter is that they want an easy win as they are racing against stock 250's. Due to this, we run a class within a class. It sure would be cool to have the backing of our race organizer.
The 250s last year was 2012. Not a vintage bike by any means. When was the SV last built?
Spec is the ideal but SS would at least be something that a rider without a big budget could manage. The economical class should be less about machinery and technology and more about the rider and participation. I could care less if it was a 250 or a 2500. 250 would make more sense economy wise.
I have been racing 20 years. Hardly a begginer. I raced GP bikes and know what it takes to be competitive on one. I have a ton more obligations than I did when I started racing at 16 years old but I would still like an opportunity to race. Racing the 250 amongst the spec riders has allowed me to show up with a bike that has not been touched in over 1 month, fill it with fuel and win the the race against others who have done the same.
The 500 is another option. I would love to see the 500ss implemented in Florida. I would consider running it. Here is a question though.. Why is there a 500ss class when I have only seen 2 500s on the race track and why is there not a ss class for the 250 / 300 when we have the grids already established to justify a 250 / 300 SS class?
"Why is there a 500ss class when I have only seen 2 500s on the race track and why is there not a ss class for the 250 / 300 when we have the grids already established to justify a 250 / 300 SS class?"
Honda offered contingency so they made the 500 class because the CBR500 wouldn't be competitive anywhere else
[/quote]
The honda contingency is probably useless for the 500 because there probably isnt enough bikes in that class for them to pay anyway, How many times did they have the required 5 riders to pay contingency? And it was only for 8 select events during the year. Not much of a chance of Honda paying any of that money
KTM announced today that they will be running an RC Cup series at selected rounds of Moto America. Looks like I may be buying an RC390 soon, but I still don't think they should be allowed in ULTB or GTLU. Leave this class low buck entry level.
I think the KTM can run with the ULWSB and LWSS and be competitive.
Quote from: bruce71198 on November 13, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
KTM announced today that they will be running an RC Cup series at selected rounds of Moto America. Looks like I may be buying an RC390 soon, but I still don't think they should be allowed in ULTB or GTLU. Leave this class low buck entry level.
I think the KTM can run with the ULWSB and LWSS and be competitive.
You think a 44hp (at the crank) single can hang with an SV650 sbk or a Duc 800 sbk? How about the 1100cc air cooled LWSS legal bikes? That's pretty funny... and all in the name of preserving the 250s that have been outclassed by their 300cc brothers...
Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 13, 2014, 08:42:34 PM
You think a 44hp (at the crank) single can hang with an SV650 sbk or a Duc 800 sbk? How about the 1100cc air cooled LWSS legal bikes? That's pretty funny... and all in the name of preserving the 250s that have been outclassed by their 300cc brothers...
Now your catching on. instead of fucking up an already established class let the new comer, with the bigger engine or outdated middleweight bike (air cooled Duc in this case) run as the underdog in the next class UP. The 250 class has an established following leave it alone. If your going to let the 300 in why not the Yamaha 320 and the KTM390 hell how about the Honda 500? Am I trying to preserve the 250 class? Yes I think its a great way to get into the sport, its easy on the wallet, its fun. Am I preserving the class for my own personal reasons? No. It looks like with KTM's involvement I will start moving in that direction.
Quote from: bruce71198 on November 14, 2014, 09:36:09 AM
outdated middleweight bike (air cooled Duc in this case)
Say What???
With CCS running the 500s, and AMA running the KTM, I think it would be nice for these bikes to have a place to race and be competitive.
Adding a class would be ideal, I would hate to see the 250 riders have their class ruined, as it's gotten pretty popular and is a great way to get into racing cheap. But going forward it will die I'm afraid. Think about it- you want an entry level bike and class....you going to buy a 250 with no future, or the KTM which you can race all the way up to AMA?
Quote from: Gino230 on November 14, 2014, 10:50:09 AM
Say What???
What. Why do you keep telling me to say this?
Quote from: bruce71198 on November 13, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
KTM announced today that they will be running an RC Cup series at selected rounds of Moto America. Looks like I may be buying an RC390 soon, but I still don't think they should be allowed in ULTB or GTLU. Leave this class low buck entry level.
I think the KTM can run with the ULWSB and LWSS and be competitive.
I read that the KTM RC Cup is for racers 14 to 22. You might have to alter your birth certificate.
Quote from: OkieDoom on November 15, 2014, 01:25:54 AM
I read that the KTM RC Cup is for racers 14 to 22. You might have to alter your birth certificate.
How long did Obama hold out? I think I can get a couple seasons in!
Quote from: OkieDoom on November 15, 2014, 01:25:54 AM
I read that the KTM RC Cup is for racers 14 to 22. You might have to alter your birth certificate.
I just need a hat to cover up my bald spot and I'm pretty sure I can pass for 22.