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Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Zaph on October 19, 2014, 01:35:42 PM

Title: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Zaph on October 19, 2014, 01:35:42 PM
Hey all, first post here.

I'd like to chat about where two new bikes will fit in to CCS if at all.  Bike 1) KTM RC390 (373 cc thumper) and bike 2) Yamaha R3 (321 cc inline twin)

I'm drinking the orange cool aid and I really like the RC390.  I would like it even more if it were allowed in ULTB.  It makes roughly the same rear wheel HP as the ninja 300, so I think there's a good chance that it be allowed.

What are the chances that the R3 will be allowed in ULTB? This would seem to be the bike with an unfair advantage.  So I guess the questions are when will we find out what will be allowed in 2015?

There are so many in the small sportbike class now, but they aren't adhering to any standard engine size which makes it difficult to group them all together.  It's already kind of a bummer that 250's aren't competitive.  I wouldn't be surprised if the R3 was not allowed.

Would be cool to add a group for "super ultra light thunderbike" for the 250's and just allow them to race with the bigger bikes in ULTB.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Gino230 on October 20, 2014, 11:12:00 AM
I would suggest you email Eric Kelcher and propose that these bikes are allowed in.

Usually, without someone proposing a rule change for the committee, the rules remain the same. Unless something major comes out. I believe the suggestion period is open now but it will close shortly so CHOP CHOP!   :)

eric.kelcher@ccsracing.us
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 20, 2014, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: Zaph on October 19, 2014, 01:35:42 PM
Hey all, first post here.

I'd like to chat about where two new bikes will fit in to CCS if at all.  Bike 1) KTM RC390 (373 cc thumper) and bike 2) Yamaha R3 (321 cc inline twin)

I'm drinking the orange cool aid and I really like the RC390.  I would like it even more if it were allowed in ULTB.  It makes roughly the same rear wheel HP as the ninja 300, so I think there's a good chance that it be allowed.

What are the chances that the R3 will be allowed in ULTB? This would seem to be the bike with an unfair advantage.  So I guess the questions are when will we find out what will be allowed in 2015?

There are so many in the small sportbike class now, but they aren't adhering to any standard engine size which makes it difficult to group them all together.  It's already kind of a bummer that 250's aren't competitive.  I wouldn't be surprised if the R3 was not allowed.

Would be cool to add a group for "super ultra light thunderbike" for the 250's and just allow them to race with the bigger bikes in ULTB.


The ULTB class was developed for the 250's. If your going to race that class and are out shopping buy a class legal bike. If you want a Ktm390 buy one and race the 500 SS and LW classes. Its the same old argument about a machine that doesnt have a class to run in and getting bumped into the next lower class.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 20, 2014, 11:25:11 AM
OK, didn't realize the KTM was a single, that changes things. So rethinking this maybe run the 250's as thunderbike rules and anything bigger as SS rules.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Zaph on October 20, 2014, 07:45:35 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on October 20, 2014, 11:12:00 AM
I would suggest you email Eric Kelcher and propose that these bikes are allowed in.

Usually, without someone proposing a rule change for the committee, the rules remain the same. Unless something major comes out. I believe the suggestion period is open now but it will close shortly so CHOP CHOP!   :)

eric.kelcher@ccsracing.us

Thanks for the info.  Eric got back to me right away.

He foresees no changes to ULTB.  He suggested people running R3's and RC390's will need to race in 500SS.

But neither of those bikes will be competetive there, so basically those bikes won't have a home in any class.  That's too bad, they look really nice, particularly the KTM.  ULTB will continue to be a class where the 300 ninja is the only competitive bike.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: LWT Racer on October 21, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
R3 and RC390's will be competitive because almost no one races that class.  Ninja 250 won a lot of the races this year.  Mark Every is other contender on his FZR400.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Capitalview on October 21, 2014, 08:59:22 AM
So, where is all the bitching that CCS is protecting a 20 year old design?  That is what we hear when the request is made to remove the big air cooled ducs in the LW class.

So, instead of letting the bikes race in the class they were actually designed to be in, they are forced to race a class up.

People talk about growing the sport, but then when two new ULW bikes show up, they aren't allowed in the ULW class? 
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: HerbigCBR on October 21, 2014, 11:10:19 AM
Lets kick the SV out of ultralight superbike and put the 300's in there. SV already has enough classes. :-)
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Gino230 on October 21, 2014, 03:50:30 PM
I spoke to Al Luddington at AMA about 6 months ago regarding the proposed 500 class, and he was writing the rules to include the KTM. So it was my impression that it was comparable in HP / weight in spec form? I  checked the specs a while back but forgot the numbers.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Zaph on October 21, 2014, 05:30:26 PM
The RC390 claimed peak output is 44 hp at the crank, so figure mid 30s at the rear wheel.  That's exactly the same as the ninja 300.  It should really be allowed in that class.  The CBR500R is about 43 rwhp.   Imho, it doesn't make sense to cap thumpers in ULTB at 300 when a twin is also capped at 300.

I would guess a thumper 300 is competitive with an inline twin 250,  and a 375 thumper seems like fair competition to a 300 inline twin in much the same way a 675 triple fits in with the middleweights.

If I had my way, ULTB should go one of two ways.  Back down to 250, and allow CBR300 thumpers, or allow the R3 and RC390 and move the class in that direction.  Or maybe even allow all of them in the same race, but group the 250 ninjas and 300 CBR's into their own category.  "Super ultra light thunderbike" or something.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 21, 2014, 06:02:05 PM
Honestly, who is going out and buying a brand new bike and converting it to a race bike for and entry level, beginner class? I think this should be addressed in a couple seasons when some of these bikes show up at the track. You can purchase, prep and race a 250 for under $3000, lets leave that formula alone. If you want the latest and greatest, race up a class, dont ruin the 250 thing!
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: spoot on October 21, 2014, 07:49:48 PM
The 500r may have 43hp, but it is also a bit heavier than the KTM or R3. So, I think the KTM would fair rather nicely....and tiny grids!
You may see an '72 RD350 out there in 2015 (MW region).
I might agree with 250 twin/300 single=TB rules. 300 twin/<380 single=SS rules. The CBR300 is way down on power and probably couldn't hold a candle to the new N300.
I'd have to refresh myself on the other bikes allowed in the 250class to see how they might fair (2-strokes vs air cooled vs liquid...etc)
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Capitalview on October 21, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on August 27, 2014, 02:51:14 PM
Oh...CCS doesnt show a bike for them, just the results. According to the rule book that is a light weight bike. Perhaps all the other bikes are NOT light weight material any more  and and should be reclassified as something else, hmmm, Ultra light weight? Evolution....

To quote yourself Bruce, evolution...

Or to put another way, it is ok as long as it isn't your class.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 21, 2014, 09:27:05 PM
I see what you did there.....
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 21, 2014, 09:29:29 PM
Quote from: Capitalview on October 21, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
To quote yourself Bruce, evolution...

Or to put another way, it is ok as long as it isn't your class.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 21, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Sorry, f'd that quote up. Big thumbs on an IPhone.
In my own defense when I bored and stroked my 250 to 335cc and 42hp it so badly spanked the rest of the group that I raced it in the LW class. And this also demonstrates the advantage of an extra 14 hp. AND you took my quote from a bike that fit into the rules of the LW class. These new bikes don't fit the rules of the current class.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: apriliaman on October 21, 2014, 10:33:07 PM
I would like to see more bikes in the 500SS class next year.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Gino230 on October 22, 2014, 10:51:06 AM
Hey Mark, congrats on putting that FZR on top! Now bust out the rattle cans, that thing could use it! :)
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Capitalview on October 22, 2014, 07:34:28 PM
While the quote is partially taken out of context, it still stands that your opinion of evolution of the class is how things go.  You were pointing out that the SV riders shouldn't be upset because the SV is a 15 year old design.  The Ninja 250 is 21 years old.  The new bikes are simply an evolution of the ULW class. 

This would be an evolution of the class.  Plus, your bike, if at 335cc, was not even legal to be competing in the ULW class.  Why would you bore a bike to the point of not being legal and still race it in the class?

In reference to who would buy a new bike, isn't that what anyone that bought the new CBR 500 did to run in the 500 class?  Not that you HAD to have a CBR, but some still did.

Manufactures are not going to make bikes to meet CCS rules.  CCS is going to have to adjust it rules to fit the bikes that are available.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: apriliaman on October 22, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
I do have a nice looking like new upper bodywork but if i put it on its not gonna be the same bike.I like the old look not the showroom look.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on October 22, 2014, 08:49:20 PM
Quote from: Capitalview on October 22, 2014, 07:34:28 PM
While the quote is partially taken out of context, it still stands that your opinion of evolution of the class is how things go.  You were pointing out that the SV riders shouldn't be upset because the SV is a 15 year old design.  The Ninja 250 is 21 years old.  The new bikes are simply an evolution of the ULW class. 

This would be an evolution of the class.  Plus, your bike, if at 335cc, was not even legal to be competing in the ULW class.  Why would you bore a bike to the point of not being legal and still race it in the class?

In reference to who would buy a new bike, isn't that what anyone that bought the new CBR 500 did to run in the 500 class?  Not that you HAD to have a CBR, but some still did.

Manufactures are not going to make bikes to meet CCS rules.  CCS is going to have to adjust it rules to fit the bikes that are available.

First off I just want to say I am not trying to start a pissing match with anyone, my comments are of the light hearted nature. If I remember correctly (how far did you dig to find that post?) we where talking about the lagality of the 565, correct? The rules already allow that size engine. So there really is no modification to the class to allow it. With the ULTB your talking about altering the rules to allow a new bike. Yes eventually as the new bikes become more popular the rules may need to change.
   I put together the 335cc engine just as an expierament to see what I could extract from it and to see if I could run up with the SV's.
  As far as the 500 class I think Honda was paying money for race wins so that may be easeon to buy new.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Capitalview on October 23, 2014, 09:05:42 AM
Your right, I am taking it to far.  Just being a little bastard the last couple days.  Must be my time of the month
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Gino230 on October 23, 2014, 05:14:23 PM
Quote from: apriliaman on October 22, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
I do have a nice looking like new upper bodywork but if i put it on its not gonna be the same bike.I like the old look not the showroom look.

I do like the stock look of the original FZR. I was just teasing you.

Seeing your bike made me remember my first bike, which was an FZR 600, probably an '89 model if I remember right? It had a slip on, jet kit, polished rims and the black and grey color scheme. I thought that bike was hells bells, too. I am just afraid that if I rode one today, I'd be disappointed! Oh well.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Kordyte on November 10, 2014, 06:09:53 PM
I would love to see the R3 and the KTM390 in ULTB. Give Kawasaki a taste of their own medicine :)

(I am still cranky because every single person who finished in front of me in Amateur this past year was on a 636cc machine :P )
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on November 13, 2014, 08:19:01 PM
KTM announced today that they will be running an RC Cup series at selected rounds of Moto America. Looks like I may be buying an RC390 soon, but I still don't think they should be allowed in ULTB or GTLU. Leave this class low buck entry level.
I think the KTM can runwith the ULWSB and LWSS and be competitive,
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: apriliaman on November 14, 2014, 05:30:02 PM
The KTM will run in the 500SS class.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: kneedragon88 on November 16, 2014, 02:04:53 AM
Glad I found this thread, I was wondering what would become of ULTB when the r3 and ktm came out.  I have to agree that I feel like it would be competitive with the 500's from what little i saw of the 500 class this year.  Bruce your 335 definitely can run with them because it definitely was too quick for our class.  Plus that little legality thing :).  You thinking of running strictly in 500 next year?


I'll probably run my 250 one more year than bump up to a 300 or try an r3 or ktm in 500 class if it grows.  Either way I'm already sick of snow, ready for the 2015 season to start. 
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Zaph on November 18, 2014, 06:51:31 PM
 Nov 18, 2014   KTM RC390, Honda CBR500R and Yamaha YZF-R3 Eligible As CCS Announces That 500cc SuperSport Class Will Run At Regional Championship Events In 2015 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/ktm-rc390-honda-cbr500r-and-yamaha-yzf-r3-eligible-as-ccs-announces-that-500cc-supersport-class-will-run-at-regional-championship-events-in-2015/) - roadracingworld.com

Well, that settles that.  I'm not too happy about it.  Of course they are eligible to run in a class designed for a bike with a larger engine, in much the same way an SV650 is eligible to run in middleweight.   None of the problems with the current classes were solved, and very interesting new models don't have a fair place to run.  300 Ninjas still have an unfair advantage over the 250's, and the RC390 and R3 are put into a class where they will be underpowered.  Not to mention that it's a class based on a single bike that nobody wants to buy.

All my opinion of course.  Oh well, back to combing craigslist for a crashed ninja 300 to convert.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Capitalview on November 18, 2014, 10:21:29 PM
Well put Zaph.  now CCS has THREE lightweight classes.


Ultra lightweight, middle lightweight, and actual lightweight.  Yeahhhhh, , we really needed another class...  getting through 17 races isn't tough enough now.  Lets add another.  Bet we get another lap reduction this year so we can fit all the classes in.  I know it was 8 laps at BFR in 2012.  Now it is down to 7 lap races.  I guess next year it will be 6.   :jerkoff:   That, of course, doesn't account for any incidents that take more than a couple minutes to clean up.  Then we will be stuck with 4 or 5 lap races.


I guess CCS doesn't understand the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy.  We have heavy weight, kept around for ONE bike and, yet another class for the 600s to race in.  The 500 ss class, designed for one bike.  And then the UL class, which we keep around to protect the 250s, even though the Kawi 300 can run in it.  And like Zaph said, why buy a 250?  It is a waste of money.  Better to just wait until CCS pulls their head out of their asses and allow the R3 and RC into the lightweight class, where they belong.


I know the HW class isn't going anywhere.  To much money made from all the 600s entering it.


Sorry for the rant.  I had to vent about, what I feel, are stupid decisions.  I would love to see an articulate explanation as to why the 300 kawi was allowed into the UL class, yet the Yamaha and KTM aren't?


I know    :whine:  and  :banghead:
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on November 19, 2014, 02:07:56 AM
Well if we can go BACK to 2 day races like it USED to be, we wouldn't be so hard pressed for time. Practice on sat an trying to run all the races sun sucks. 

Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: apriliaman on November 19, 2014, 05:53:28 PM
The Honda CBR 500 isn't the only 500 out there.You can race the Kawasaki EX 500 which is faster in a straight line.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Zaph on November 19, 2014, 06:54:18 PM
There's also the Suzuki GS500

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaOBzTJB7yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaOBzTJB7yc)
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on November 19, 2014, 10:11:02 PM
Quote from: kneedragon88 on November 16, 2014, 02:04:53 AM
Glad I found this thread, I was wondering what would become of ULTB when the r3 and ktm came out.  I have to agree that I feel like it would be competitive with the 500's from what little i saw of the 500 class this year.  Bruce your 335 definitely can run with them because it definitely was too quick for our class.  Plus that little legality thing :).  You thinking of running strictly in 500 next year?


I'll probably run my 250 one more year than bump up to a 300 or try an r3 or ktm in 500 class if it grows.  Either way I'm already sick of snow, ready for the 2015 season to start. 

Well next seasons a toss up now. If the Moto America class pans out I'm putting my hat in the ring with my son as the rider. Depending on that schedule will determine my partisipation locally. But I'll be around on my 250 built to the ULWTB rules. If I still have all my bikes I may run the 335 still. If anyone needs a well sorted 250 I will need to part with at least one of them.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: joeymink on January 06, 2015, 04:33:06 PM
Surprised to see this much discussion for a class that, as far as my experience goes, does not have many competitors. I'm 2 seasons into racing with WERA and CCS, and I'm usually the only Ninja 250. Most of my events have been at NJMP and Summit Point, so I'm not sure if it's bad luck or representative of the class population...


Regardless, here's hoping for bigger ULTB grids in 2015!
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: apriliaman on January 06, 2015, 08:20:10 PM
Not in Florida where they have more then 10-15 bikes in a race.In the North not so much.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: twilkinson3 on January 30, 2015, 02:32:26 PM
Bruce that kiddo of yours needs at least a chance, get him on a 390....call me some time maybe I can twist an arm or two in place to see about a bit o assistance on that
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on January 31, 2015, 06:34:08 PM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on January 30, 2015, 02:32:26 PM
Bruce that kiddo of yours needs at least a chance, get him on a 390....call me some time maybe I can twist an arm or two in place to see about a bit o assistance on that

License applied for and 2 bikes ordered with the hopes of getting 1.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: bruce71198 on January 31, 2015, 06:38:18 PM
Also 2 of the 3 Ninja 250's we have are on the block in the event any of you would like to try your hand. $2400-$2800 depending which bike you want. Both set up and ready to go aside from the body work.
Title: Re: ULTB rules for 2015
Post by: Zaph on May 26, 2015, 11:36:29 PM
Well I thought I would pop back into this thread to say that I picked up a Ninja 300 to race in Ultralight Thunderbike.

That said, at this point I'm going to be pissed if the RC390 is allowed into that class for 2016.  I really wanted an RC390, but I didn't feel like running it against 2 cylinder 500 cc bikes.  So I passed on the RC390 to get a 300 that's legal for the class.

I kinda find myself wishing CCS would just call it the Ninja Cup or something, and then have some sort of trophy for the best finishing 250.  If they did that, 250's and 300's could race together and everyone has something to shoot for.