So how many of you are requesting the 565s get banned?
Slicks in supersport?
remove GP bikes from GTL TC?
Anything else?
565 is ok if you put a year with the rule,like 1998 and older as an example.The officials need to look at your tech paper better and see what races your in.If they can see you signed up for a class and the bike you bring in tech doesn't match with the rules.Also Like in supersport people have slicks on there bike then get DQ after the race so there needs to be someone at the gate looking for tires before you enter the track.
Good comments, and I agree with both of you on all items, especially the DOT tire rule.
SBK Rules for GTL.
Also, Move the Team Challenege to end of the day on Saturday. Dad Mazz brought up this idea and I really like it. People hate waiting around on Sunday waiting for TC to be over, some people have to wait 8 hours for their first sprint. If it's at the end of the day saturday, say start time 2 or 3. Then all the sprint only guys can grab a beer and watch the race. It's better for everyone.
Quote from: Swiest on September 30, 2014, 10:36:16 AM
SBK Rules for GTL.
I second both of these
Also, Move the Team Challenege to end of the day on Saturday. Dad Mazz brought up this idea and I really like it. People hate waiting around on Sunday waiting for TC to be over, some people have to wait 8 hours for their first sprint. If it's at the end of the day saturday, say start time 2 or 3. Then all the sprint only guys can grab a beer and watch the race. It's better for everyone.
Not to mention sprint racers can now partake in endurance and still be fresh for Sundays remaining sprints........
Moving endurance races to last event of Saturday is a must. Not a substantial downside I could imagine.... :cheers:
Quote from: MAZZ77X on September 30, 2014, 07:31:41 PM
Not to mention sprint racers can now partake in endurance and still be fresh for Sundays remaining sprints........
Moving endurance races to last event of Saturday is a must. Not a substantial downside I could imagine.... :cheers:
Someone needs to head this movement up officially with the ccs rule committee via official rule proposals
What about limiting air cooled desmo engines to 900cc in LW classes?
Getting rid of the HW (750cc) class and adding more laps to the other races? Right now it is mostly 600s anyway. It would also be nice to not try to squeeze 19 races into one day. At least that is what is happening up in the MW right now. That could also alleviate some of the mixed classes that aren't safe, like LWGP and ULTB or HWSS and ULWSB. They could actually have their own races instead.
They aren't going to do anything to the Air cooled CC limits in lightweight, not going to happen, it's making them money the way it is. Rules have to make sense for the racers and CCS's bank account.
I know.
That is also why GP bikes won't be taken out of the GT races...
If we can get back to the 2 day schedules the mixing of classes can be eliminated. Didnt see the mixing when we did racing sat and sundays other than twin sprint weekends.
I'd hate to go all "WERA-like" with the rulebook, but why not allow GP bikes to race GT classes, but multi-cylinder bikes have to race up a class; 565's would race GTU, a Moto2 bike would race GTO, someone on a 125 or 250 would still be in GTL.
And of course, gridding by points and slicks for everyone.
Why should the GP bikes be eliminated from GT? They are already eliminated from the Superbike, F40, and Thunderbike classes. Will you guys be happy when they are not allowed in GP either?
If you want to go "all WERA like" that's ok with me, they allow frame and engine swaps, as well as downsizing to meet displacement limits. So the hybrids and the 565 would be allowed in superbike.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 03, 2014, 10:38:15 AM
Why should the GP bikes be eliminated from GT? They are already eliminated from the Superbike, F40, and Thunderbike classes. Will you guys be happy when they are not allowed in GP either?
If you want to go "all WERA like" that's ok with me, they allow frame and engine swaps, as well as downsizing to meet displacement limits. So the hybrids and the 565 would be allowed in superbike.
GTL endurance class is what I want them out of because they are finishing top 5 overall no problem because there is almost no speed difference. Faceplant Ducati was 3rd overall at VIR only behind Lloyd Baily (GSXR1000) and Eric Helmbach(s1000rr). GP is the class they should be allowed in and that's it.
And what you say about WERA rules and SBK is not true. hybrids and 565 are not allowed in SBK. They are only allowed in F2 which is a GP class.
GP bikes are allowed in F40.
Quote from: Swiest on October 03, 2014, 10:55:25 AM
GTL endurance class is what I want them out of because they are finishing top 5 overall no problem because there is almost no speed difference. Faceplant Ducati was 3rd overall at VIR only behind Lloyd Baily (GSXR1000) and Eric Helmbach(s1000rr). GP is the class they should be allowed in and that's it.
And what you say about WERA rules and SBK is not true. hybrids and 565 are not allowed in SBK. They are only allowed in F2 which is a GP class.
Like
Can of worms; open here........
If they pulled LWGP bikes out of GTL, they should allow all LWGP bikes in Thunderbike. I think they fit the theme of the class better than the 749R does.
Quote from: Swiest on October 03, 2014, 10:55:25 AM
GTL endurance class is what I want them out of because they are finishing top 5 overall no problem because there is almost no speed difference. Faceplant Ducati was 3rd overall at VIR only behind Lloyd Baily (GSXR1000) and Eric Helmbach(s1000rr). GP is the class they should be allowed in and that's it.
And what you say about WERA rules and SBK is not true. hybrids and 565 are not allowed in SBK. They are only allowed in F2 which is a GP class.
Yes and the top finishing SV was 8th overall, ahead of ALL but one of the 600 teams. Also Faceplant was Greg Melka riding who is one of the top club racers in the US.
RE WERA; frame and engine swaps ARE PERMITTED in SB classes.
Quote from: tony216 on October 04, 2014, 01:06:25 PM
If they pulled LWGP bikes out of GTL, they should allow all LWGP bikes in Thunderbike. I think they fit the theme of the class better than the 749R does.
I think we should rebuild the entire class structure so the SV can dominate. Forget all those Ducati guys. Forget that the bike is 10 years old. Forget that the SV's still win the majority of LW races. Hell, if CCS were smart, they'd just ditch all the LW classes and make it the SV cup!
Which begs the question.....if this is such a pressing issue, why isn't it in front of the rules committee? I believe the Daytona mailer stated there were no proposals in front of the committee?
I am only getting sucked into this discussion out of boredom anyway, as I said, I made the move to Middleweight.
Yes Greg is amazing. So is that bike. End of story.
That SV/Ducati discussion can stay in the other thread. We don't need to repeat it all AGAIN.
There is no need to submit a proposal to CCS about it because Kevin isn't going to do anything. The only viable rule changed is to have TC moved to end of day on Saturday.
Also, CCS should dump supertwins, and yes I race supertwins but it's a waste of time to have 4 bikes out there, they are losing money on that.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 06, 2014, 01:45:50 PM
RE WERA; frame and engine swaps ARE PERMITTED in SB classes.
You are still wrong about WERA SBK. This is from WERA rulebook
"In Superbike the original combination of frame and motor must be maintained except in the case of similar models with directly interchangeable engines."
I don't have an SV. Just stating my opinion.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 06, 2014, 01:49:24 PM
I think we should rebuild the entire class structure so the SV can dominate. Forget all those Ducati guys. Forget that the bike is 10 years old. Forget that the SV's still win the majority of LW races. Hell, if CCS were smart, they'd just ditch all the LW classes and make it the SV cup!
Which begs the question.....if this is such a pressing issue, why isn't it in front of the rules committee? I believe the Daytona mailer stated there were no proposals in front of the committee?
I am only getting sucked into this discussion out of boredom anyway, as I said, I made the move to Middleweight.
Tony, you should be mad your Buells are being left out of all this controversy. :biggrin:
Or do they take themselves out. :lmao: :cheers:
Quote from: Swiest on October 06, 2014, 06:45:09 PM
Tony, you should be mad your Buells are being left out of all this controversy. :biggrin:
Or do they take themselves out. :lmao: :cheers:
Kevin didn't wanna hear my unlimited displacement air-cooled OHV argument a couple of years ago. :)
I heard there are 3 R6s being made into 565s. Can't wait to see them ripping along at 16000rpm.
Quote from: tony216 on October 06, 2014, 06:25:33 PM
I don't have an SV. Just stating my opinion.
Sorry if that came off a little "Cheeky".....Sometimes I forget that the CCS forum is basically Me vs. Sam when it comes to LW. And of course it's all in good fun, let's face it, we all love our little bikes and want to make them as competitive as possible. I'm sure this kind of banter has been going on in every race org. since the beginning of racing.
Interestingly enough, the "interchangeable frame and engine" is what most hang their hat on. The 1100 Duc motor will bolt straight in to the 848 frame. Even wiring harness doesn't need to be modified. This was the basis for the RRW article from a few years back about an 848 with 800CC Duc motor that was racing in WERA SB. I agree we don't need to rehash the whole thing here.
Also RE the Buell, what does the bike need displacement wise to be competitive? I am honestly asking because I'm curious....I remember the good old days of thunderbike they were getting 110 HP, but at that time the best the Duc could do was about 95 out of a highly built 750.
You should see the guys in CVMA argue against a 748 that has 749r crank so its a 650. Even tho it makes same HP as SV's out there, both 90-95hp. I think they allow 677 liquid cooled and 1000 air cooled.
I seem to remember that being a hot setup for wera as well some years back. That was before you could get big power (and big displacement) from the air cooled motors. At the end of the day, to try any of these "experiments", you have to really like the bike. Heck, we have a guy racing with us in FL that sawed a 1098 engine in half so he could run singles!
1100 air cooled is way to go if you want to ride a Twin. 565 is even more lethal.
You also have to have a pretty good budget to build these bikes.
I find it interesting that you don't hear this type of discussion about the MW and Unlimited classes. Is it that the people racing in LW are more vocal or is there really a problem with imbalance in the available options?
Just my opinion, but I feel it is because there hasn't been an affordable, easily available, LW bike produced by manufactures. It will be interesting to see what happens with the FZ-07. Although I don't really see it being any better than the SV with the specs listed on it. Especially since the SV has a decade of development behind it.
So we will be stuck with the Ducati 1000s and 1100s until someone else comes out with something that can compete with them
On a different note, I had suggested getting rid of the HW class (750s). Why not replace it with a complete ULW class? The 250/300 class is getting big and manufacturers are coming out with even more options. They deserve a SS, SB, and GP class
what is to argue about in Middleweight and Unlimited? They are all 600's and 1000's in respective classes.
FZ isn't any better then SV stock, there is one racing out in cali. Even vs stock SV. The main test is when someone builds a SBK and see if the crank can handle 90-100hp. If it can, then you will see SV die off and see the Kawi completely disappear.
I don't think the 250/300 class should be gp or SBK. That class needs to remain fun and cheap, once you make it SBK then POOF.
Did you know in middleweight you can ride a 1000CC triple?? So if you wanted to you can ride the MV Agusta F3 800.Maybe you can also use a 1st Gen Suzuki Hayabusa engine and turn 1 cylinder off and it will be under 1000CC then put it in a custom GP frame!! Will the 600 class riders complain now if someone did it and won alot of races.
Quote from: Capitalview on October 07, 2014, 03:06:43 PM
I find it interesting that you don't hear this type of discussion about the MW and Unlimited classes. Is it that the people racing in LW are more vocal or is there really a problem with imbalance in the available options?
^^^^^
Here's your answer.
I'm parking the LW bike for a while, just because after 15 years I need something different....a new challenge, and I think the MW class will provide that. So far it has proved to be true and I hope if I return to the LW class, I will come back with some new skills. We'll see....
This just in: CCS to place the new Kawasaki H2 in Lightweight Supersport. No complaining allowed. If your bike isn't fast enough, buy a new one.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 07, 2014, 11:48:33 AM
Sorry if that came off a little "Cheeky".....Sometimes I forget that the CCS forum is basically Me vs. Sam when it comes to LW. And of course it's all in good fun, let's face it, we all love our little bikes and want to make them as competitive as possible. I'm sure this kind of banter has been going on in every race org. since the beginning of racing.
Interestingly enough, the "interchangeable frame and engine" is what most hang their hat on. The 1100 Duc motor will bolt straight in to the 848 frame. Even wiring harness doesn't need to be modified. This was the basis for the RRW article from a few years back about an 848 with 800CC Duc motor that was racing in WERA SB. I agree we don't need to rehash the whole thing here.
Also RE the Buell, what does the bike need displacement wise to be competitive? I am honestly asking because I'm curious....I remember the good old days of thunderbike they were getting 110 HP, but at that time the best the Duc could do was about 95 out of a highly built 750.
That 800/848 Ducati in RRW was raced in CMRA. It did show up two WERA weekenda at Barber. It raced in LW Solo (GTL) and Formula 2. It was NOT LW superbike legal in WERA. It may have entered LWSB and not been protested but it does not meet the requirements of original frame and motor. Several years ago there was the 687 Duc based on a 749. Legal for Formula 2 only.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on October 07, 2014, 06:46:21 PM
This just in: CCS to place the new Kawasaki H2 in Lightweight Supersport. No complaining allowed. If your bike isn't fast enough, buy a new one.
Yeah! Turbocharging, BABY!
On the H2, I would think that they should open up section 5 so someone can run it in Unlim GP and maybe GTO, with a stock supercharger only of course.
In case you are wondering why it is not legal now:
5.2.21 Supercharging is not allowed. Turbo charging is allowed only if the
original equipment system is used
Change the helmet rules as follows:
5.1.1
Undamaged full-face helmet with face shield and bearing a stamp of approval from one of the following international standards:
1. Snell M2010 or M2015
2. BS. 6658 TYPE. A (GREAT - BRITAIN)
4. ECE 22 - 05 "P" (EUROPE)
5. JIS 8133:2007 (JAPAN)
Reason:
This change eliminates Snell 2005, ECE 22.04 and JIS 8133:2000 which are all very outdated standards and should not affect any current helmets being used. It also paves the way for Snell M2015 when those helmets are released soon.
Change the forced induction rules as follows:
5.2.21
Forced induction (supercharger or turbocharger) is allowed only if the original equipment system is used.
1. Use of forced induction will bump the eligible race class to the next level. For instance, an OEM Turbo 650 Twin would be bumped to MW.
2. Nitrous Oxide systems are strictly prohibited in all classes.
Reason:
Manufacturers are showing renewed interest in forced induction. This rule allows for OEM supercharger and pushes any smaller forced induction bike up a class.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 07, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
I'm parking the LW bike for a while, just because after 15 years I need something different....a new challenge, and I think the MW class will provide that. So far it has proved to be true and I hope if I return to the LW class, I will come back with some new skills. We'll see....
Same here. Racing up this year has forced me to improve my riding skills, with MCRA I agreed to run my 565 in GT which is equivalent to CCS GTO :-)
Quote from: 2blueYam on October 08, 2014, 08:04:02 AM
On the H2, I would think that they should open up section 5 so someone can run it in Unlim GP and maybe GTO, with a stock supercharger only of course.
In case you are wondering why it is not legal now:
5.2.21 Supercharging is not allowed. Turbo charging is allowed only if the
original equipment system is used
Odd that you can run a turbo (which is technically a super charger) but not a super charger.
Quote from: MAZZ77X on September 30, 2014, 07:31:41 PM
Not to mention sprint racers can now partake in endurance and still be fresh for Sundays remaining sprints........
Moving endurance races to last event of Saturday is a must. Not a substantial downside I could imagine.... :cheers:
very good points. would be a win win for ccs and the racers. More teams would enter endurance and there would be more sprint entries on Sunday. I know several racers including myself that didnt sign up for sprints on Sunday that were late after the endurance because of the long wait then a long drive home, and others that wouldnt do endurance because they had sprints right after it.
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 10, 2014, 11:58:44 AM
Odd that you can run a turbo (which is technically a super charger) but not a super charger.
The rule was probably written the way it is because there had never been such a thing as a bike with an OEM supercharger, only turbos.
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 10, 2014, 11:58:44 AM
Odd that you can run a turbo (which is technically a super charger) but not a super charger.
But unlike a supercharger, you cant change the max psi boost on a turbo without some rather $$$ and obvious changes.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on October 10, 2014, 09:32:34 PM
But unlike a supercharger, you cant change the max psi boost on a turbo without some rather $$$ and obvious changes.
I can't put an exact dollar figure on lifting the hood and pulling the vacuum hose off the waste gate on my turbo but I assure you it's not $$$...
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on October 10, 2014, 09:32:34 PM
But unlike a supercharger, you cant change the max psi boost on a turbo without some rather $$$ and obvious changes.
Depends, my 335i had a built in 2 psi over boost to compensate for altitude. A simple change to the software enabled that 2 psi at sea level :)
Quote from: bruce71198 on October 10, 2014, 10:12:04 PM
I can't put an exact dollar figure on lifting the hood and pulling the vacuum hose off the waste gate on my turbo but I assure you it's not $$$...
I could on my Shelby CSX also. No way in hell I would let my CSX run above 24psi even on the heavily modified 2.2L. Usually kept it around 22psi. Yeah pulling the vacuum line on it and letting the boost run amuck could had cost me easily $4K+ (early 90's dollars) when the motor detonated.
What about upping ULTB CC limits to 321cc for inline twins for the Yamaha R3 (http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newstitle=Yamaha-unveil-YZF-R3-sportsbike&newsid=13257) or 374cc for singles for the KTM RC390 (http://www.ktm.com/supersport/rc-390/highlights.html)
It would be good for those bikes to have a place to race, especially since the AMA is clearly leaning towards that as a spec class. However there are alot of 250 people that would like to see their class kept "pure"
That is running into the same issues as LW is having with the Ducatis and the SV. At least they have some development with new bikes in their class.
Quote from: Capitalview on October 16, 2014, 03:52:14 PM
What about upping ULTB CC limits to 321cc for inline twins for the Yamaha R3 (http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newstitle=Yamaha-unveil-YZF-R3-sportsbike&newsid=13257) or 374cc for singles for the KTM RC390 (http://www.ktm.com/supersport/rc-390/highlights.html)
I just sent in a request for that. It makes for a pretty good and fair 3 way battle between Kawasaki, Yamaha and KTM.
I can understand that it will make the 250 riders feel left out, but I think it's better in the long run.
Quote from: Zaph on October 20, 2014, 03:00:36 PM
I just sent in a request for that. It makes for a pretty good and fair 3 way battle between Kawasaki, Yamaha and KTM.
I can understand that it will make the 250 riders feel left out, but I think it's better in the long run.
Maybe run the 250's as thunderbike rules and anything bigger as SS rules. Theres going to be an awful lot of 250 riders left in the dust if they pile in the bigger bikes to this class.
That is basically what LRRS did. Class 'A' machines get to run SB rules, with some restrictions, IE below the cylinder no mods. Class 'B' have to run SuperStock, OEM exhaust and everything. Bikes are specifically listed as approved and as what class. If it's not in the approved list, it's not allowed.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjKwcx42f76IdGZ4b3ZQZFJnSUQxbW1LWVlUdUhkS3c&usp=sharing
That's my cheat sheet I've been building while contemplating entering the class. Waiting to see which of the new machines get approved for 2015 now.
Quote from: Gino230 on October 20, 2014, 10:55:58 AM
It would be good for those bikes to have a place to race, especially since the AMA is clearly leaning towards that as a spec class. However there are alot of 250 people that would like to see their class kept "pure"
Yep! KTM is the officially the MotoAmerica youth class bike.
http://www.ktm.com/us/news-events/news/all/details/ktm-and-motoamerica-partner-to-announce-new-rc-cup-racing-series.html#.VGUly6N1H2D (http://www.ktm.com/us/news-events/news/all/details/ktm-and-motoamerica-partner-to-announce-new-rc-cup-racing-series.html#.VGUly6N1H2D)
I definitely think there should be a class for these to be competitive in.
Quote from: Kurlon on November 08, 2014, 01:55:48 PMBikes are specifically listed as approved and as what class. If it's not in the approved list, it's not allowed.
I would love for CCS to keep a list like this for every class. It would keep people from coming along with an oddball that fits in a class but has an unfair advantage for some reason.
KTM announced today that they will be running an RC Cup series at selected rounds of Moto America. Looks like I may be buying an RC390 soon, but I still don't think they should be allowed in ULTB or GTLU. Leave this class low buck entry level.
I think the KTM can run with the ULWSB and LWSS and be competitive,
Quote from: bruce71198 on November 13, 2014, 08:25:50 PM
I think the KTM can run with the ULWSB and LWSS and be competitive,
Say what???
"Say 'what' again. Say 'what' again, I dare you, I double dare you m*****f***** say what one more G****** time...."
Quote from: jfboothe on November 14, 2014, 08:49:12 AM
"Say 'what' again. Say 'what' again, I dare you, I double dare you m*****f***** say what one more G****** time...."
Haha
Ezekiel 25-17........