Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Rules and Regs => Topic started by: Bitgeist Racing 696 on January 01, 2014, 09:08:40 PM

Title: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Bitgeist Racing 696 on January 01, 2014, 09:08:40 PM
I noticed that the HP2 sport is specifically excluded from several if not all classes it technically meets the spec requirements for. Can someone please explain to me why this is the case? I was thinking about picking one up to race in LW: SS, SP, GP, F40 ,and thunder bike but apparently its illegal in all those classes. Is it really that much faster than an NCR tricked DB5? I missed any discussions about when these rukes were passed and dont see any debates or explanations in this forum, just some mentions that it's excluded. Can someone please help shed some light. Thank you.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Dragon on January 02, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
Have you compared the specs of the HP2 to all the other bikes are allowed in the light weight class? They speak for themselves. The HP2 Has the same horsepower as most if not all middleweight bikes. Just because it's air cooled doesn't make it fair. Why would you want to spend $15,000 to race a air cooled shaft driven bike anyways?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: benprobst on January 02, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
Quote from: Dragon on January 02, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
Have you compared the specs of the HP2 to all the other bikes are allowed in the light weight class? They speak for themselves. The HP2 Has the same horsepower as most if not all middleweight bikes. Just because it's air cooled doesn't make it fair. Why would you want to spend $15,000 to race a air cooled shaft driven bike anyways?


Maybe he doesn't want to spend 50,000 dollars to race an air cooled chain driven bike?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on January 02, 2014, 01:01:13 PM
I am prefacing my statement with the intent that they are meant with conversation sake as the focus. From the philosophical side, racing is not about being fair but it is a show of competition. Yes you can race on a fair platform and that is the premise of spec racing.

There are subjective rational when determining rules such as this bike is faster than that bike. Another would be the individual's idea of what a lightweight bike should be. The BMW HP2 although technically would fit within the lightweight rules would be the king of the class(here again subjective in nature)

The objective rational is addressed by the current rules as in the size limitation of an engine design. And inline liquid cooled 4 is limited to 560cc, where the v twin liquid cooled is limited to 800cc unless it is of Desmodromic valve actuation which is not allowed whatsoever. Yes there are more examples of the objective rational but in order to save time and your reading attention I won't delve into them.

Now the play on horsepower leads us to use both the objective and subjective reasoning. Since the BMW HP2 is reported to possess 130bhp it is the killer of the class. There is at least one air cooled Ducati racing with 140 rwhp racing amongst us.

I must also make the distinction that the lightweight class is further broken down to Super sport, Super bike, Grand Prix, and GT. You could as well make the same distinction of the sportsman class of LW Formula 40, MW Formula 40 and F40.

It seems to me the rules are comprised of what the majority of competitors want and not what is fair. The end result for the organization is the monetary amounts the rules can bring in. If you are in the minority of owner/racer like I typically am then you are Out of luck. I have heard so many times go buy a competitive bike and it will be fair. I for one race what I can. I am not privy to dropping $23k(after all the race set up) on a new bike. Would it even be worth it purchasing a five year old for $12k?

So I race on the old bikes in the class that I can. There seems to be no rhyme or reason for the rules but that's what they are. I race within them or take on the alternative which is not to race at all.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on January 02, 2014, 01:02:45 PM
Great wisdom Ben. I see your little smirk. Lol
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Dragon on January 02, 2014, 06:33:56 PM
Won't change the fact that CCS doesn't allow it as a LW and I still don't understand why anyone would race a shaft driven bike?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on January 02, 2014, 07:17:53 PM
Curious, what's wrong with a shaft driven bike? I ask because I don't change the gearing on my bikes in typical fashion and only once tried something a little difference which didn't improve times or acceleration. I typically use stock gearing and run 1st to 5th on most tracks except for Daytona and Roebling
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Bitgeist Racing 696 on January 03, 2014, 12:04:19 AM
Quote from: Dragon on January 02, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
Have you compared the specs of the HP2 to all the other bikes are allowed in the light weight class? They speak for themselves. The HP2 Has the same horsepower as most if not all middleweight bikes. Just because it's air cooled doesn't make it fair. Why would you want to spend $15,000 to race a air cooled shaft driven bike anyways?

Thank you for your input. To answer your questions. I have compared the performance figures and a decked DB5 has equal or better power to weight ratio as the HP2, but is allowed. I am merely wondering why the HP2 is specifically excluded when it meets every single technical criteria outlined in the rules. If we decide that there should be an HP limit then we should specify that in the rules. If we decide that there needs to be total cost limit then it should be in the rules. I want to race an HP2 specifically because it is a high performance air cooled BMW Twin. I race the S1000RR and would like to compete in other classes on a very different machine and not just a slower bike.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Cowboy 6 on January 03, 2014, 08:31:09 AM
Maybe the real question is, "why is the DB5 allowed?"
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Bitgeist Racing 696 on January 03, 2014, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on January 03, 2014, 08:31:09 AM
Maybe the real question is, "why is the DB5 allowed?"

That is an easy one to answer. Because it complies with the rules. Someone said above that the HP2 would be "the killer of the class", meaning it would be faster than everything else. I do not see how this should exclude a motorcycle from a class. If you exclude the fastest legal bike from the class every year then in a few years you end up with a spec class for whatever was the slowest bike in that class.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on January 03, 2014, 09:49:23 AM
How about why is the Pierobon X60R  allowed?It is 80-100lbs lighter then the HP2 with the same HP.It is lighter then every 600 out there also.It is around 300lbs.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Dragon on January 03, 2014, 10:21:52 AM
Everyone is racing a SV or DUC in LW. That's what the class was designed for and that's what everyone pays CCS to do. If you take away the competition and fun in club racing then you take away people who are going to pay to race. Lets not forget that these rules were in put into effect long before the hp2 was even in development. It's the only bike in its class. If all the other companies created similar production bikes then I'm sure a class would be created for them.  And as for shaft driven bikes, if you haven't ridden one then try it before you buy one. They put major flex on the rear shock creating instability under excelleration and decelleratio. That's not something you want going into or coming out of a turn.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on January 03, 2014, 01:54:00 PM
Only SV and Ducs being raced? No, there are a couple Kawasaki and a hint of Aprillia hybrid out there but I do relent the SV is the most popular.

The rules have been there for a long time and yes way before the HP2 and that is exactly the point- why not the HP2? The answer lays in maybe it is subjective reasoning based upon objective findings. Do we race based upon horsepower, or horsepower to weight ratio or the cost of the package? None of them and all of them.

The pierobon is allowed like the Bimota is allowed. The pierobon borrows a motor from the Ducati and so does the Bimota. A racer/builder could purchase a Ducati and cut it down to their ideal weight, and then build the motor to the same specs of the pierobon. There is one such Ducati out there with a motor like that.

The FZR 400 was the lightweight bike to have for some time. Then came the twins of Honda hawks and Suzuki SV. Now it has been the day of the Ducati air cooled twin but the SV continues to hold on because they have been that good not because they are that cheap. The SV still wins races against some very fast Ducati  as well.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Eric Kelcher on January 03, 2014, 04:50:38 PM
Buell and BMW both indicated the HP2 and XBRR were middleweight class machines.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Dragon on January 03, 2014, 09:03:06 PM
I never said "only SV and DUC race" and thank you Eric for reiterating my original reply that the HP2 is a middleweight bike. I'm done with this ridiculous thread. Can't stand trying to state the obvious.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on January 04, 2014, 08:25:41 AM
Well, there you have the answer. The HP2 and XBRR were meant to be middleweight bikes as intended by the manufacturers. I can only deduce that is the same rationale to answer my request for my age old middleweight 748 racing in LW GP or GT lights.

Maybe a rules request to allow the downsizing of the 748 to fit into LW GP and GT lights as the inline middleweight bikes are I understood this forum to be unofficial and informal conversation of like minded(race) individuals to share their statements whether obvious or vague. That is all my statements are meant to do, stimulate conversation based upon ones own perception.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on January 04, 2014, 02:44:42 PM
The Buell XBRR engine is 1336CC so it is too big for the LW class.The BMW HP2 engine is 1170CC so it fits in under the 1200CC LW class limit.So that should be allowed but it isn't.Dry weight is listed at 392lbs so it is heavy.Dry weight of the Pierobon X60R is listed at 295lbs dry so it is super light.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Cowboy 6 on January 04, 2014, 06:44:45 PM
Quote from: Bitgeist Racing 696 on January 03, 2014, 09:04:08 AM
That is an easy one to answer. Because it complies with the rules.

Wow, are you missing the point.......
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on January 05, 2014, 11:40:46 AM
Just disallow everything except hawk.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: bruce71198 on January 06, 2014, 08:06:59 AM
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on January 03, 2014, 04:50:38 PM
Buell and BMW both indicated the HP2 and XBRR were middleweight class machines.


And what was Ducatis " Indication" of the 749 ?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Eric Kelcher on January 06, 2014, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: bruce71198 on January 06, 2014, 08:06:59 AM

And what was Ducatis " Indication" of the 749 ?

Middleweight, tho that was not communicated individually to us.
http://www.bevelheaven.com/press/749s-ST/index.htm
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Z-man on February 06, 2014, 04:01:36 PM
In 2007 I picked up a used SV650 for $4500, back then LW used to be the "poor man's" class my $4500 motorcycle was fairly competitive at that time.  Since then the class has slowly become the exotic class with the most expensive motorcycles on the grid showing up to race.  It started with Ducati SS's and then limited production motorcycles by Pierbon and Bimota became legal.  Grids used to be pretty big in LW classes, now many times it is a challenge to get enough people on the grid to qualify for contingency in expert races.  In my opinion, the loosening up of the class rules is a big part of the reason. When you have guys dropping 40g's for a bimota or 80g's for a Pierbon that put out 120hp, it takes the wind out of the sales of guys racing 75hp SV's.  I'm surprised that the BMW HP2 is singled out for some reason when these other bikes are not but what can you do.  I still have my SV and I'll race it for fun or run track days but I got out of the LW class and am focused on a middleweight bike again.  Lots more just leave the sport all together.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on February 06, 2014, 04:43:56 PM
Only other option is to build a SV time bomb. 100-110 hp is easy from SV is easy. But at that point you'll have so much $$ invested might as well buy nice duc.

Lwt SS, ULwt SBK, Lwt SBK, Lwt GP, GT  Lights, Thunderbike, and Lwt F40.

Out of those 6/7 classes, how many are showing up with insanely expensive bikes?
How many classes do you want SV or EX to not be out gunned in?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on February 06, 2014, 10:01:29 PM
My ducati isnt one of them big bucks bike.My bike is mostly stock except the engine.The engine is worth more then the bike I would think.All I would need is a block to build a stock engine with all the parts I got and I can make it a stock street bike again.The HP2 Sport should be in the class as it is in the rules.I remember when N8 was riding it,he was 1sec a lap faster then the regular model R1200S.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on February 09, 2014, 12:53:22 AM
Quote from: Z-man on February 06, 2014, 04:01:36 PM
In 2007 I picked up a used SV650 for $4500, back then LW used to be the "poor man's" class my $4500 motorcycle was fairly competitive at that time.  Since then the class has slowly become the exotic class with the most expensive motorcycles on the grid showing up to race.  It started with Ducati SS's and then limited production motorcycles by Pierbon and Bimota became legal.  Grids used to be pretty big in LW classes, now many times it is a challenge to get enough people on the grid to qualify for contingency in expert races.  In my opinion, the loosening up of the class rules is a big part of the reason. When you have guys dropping 40g's for a bimota or 80g's for a Pierbon that put out 120hp, it takes the wind out of the sales of guys racing 75hp SV's.  I'm surprised that the BMW HP2 is singled out for some reason when these other bikes are not but what can you do.  I still have my SV and I'll race it for fun or run track days but I got out of the LW class and am focused on a middleweight bike again.  Lots more just leave the sport all together.

It costs $12k to be competitive with the Duc Hybrids and Bimotas.  Less if you can do the work yourself.


Having said that, it would be nice if lightweights truly were again.  250 class is exploding but I'd like to race a bike that requires at least a small amount of throttle control and braking.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on February 09, 2014, 12:59:07 AM
Quote from: sdiver68 on February 09, 2014, 12:53:22 AM
It costs $12k to be competitive with the Duc Hybrids and Bimotas.  Much less if you can do the work yourself.


Having said that, it would be nice if lightweights truly were again.  250 class is exploding but I'd like to race a bike that requires at least a small amount of throttle control and braking.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on February 12, 2014, 10:59:43 PM
It seems like we always end up on this topic, what should be allowed, what shouldn't Fine by me as a month is too long between races so we need to entertain ourselves somehow after all the oil has been changed, fairings waxed, brakes bled, etc.....(well, some of you clearly have never waxed your fairings but that's another story).

It's a tough question. The SV was dominant, then the Ducati 1000 SS came out and it became a bike that had more potential than the SV, if enough time and money was invested. The SV crowd has never been happy since.

I'm sure the Hawk and EX500 guys were upset when the SV came out, too. Such is the nature of racing. You can't expect a platform to remain the most competitive for 13 years, but the SV has. The SV still wins a majority of LW races nationwide.

Are the NCR, Pierbon, Bimota an advantage? Sure they are. But are they unbeatable? Heck no. I raced my 1000DS for years and most of the Bimotas finished behind me. And that was with an SS legal machine. The guys who beat me, they would have beat me on anything.

And there are SV's that have beat us all so the bike is still competitive, 13 years later.... in the right hands.

As far as LW being the "poor man's class" I think that is a little disingenuous. I started in LW with a $4500 Ducati 750 that was at least 8 or 9 years old. The bike was competitive right off the bat but back then you could also get a mid pack middleweight machine for about $5 grand. So the costs are still relative, I believe.

Nowadays you can build a VERY competitive expert LW machine for about $12-15K, and the argument is you could spend the same for a competitive MW machine.... I say that has always been the case and it's simply a choice.

As for small LW grids....well, come to FL where the LW grids are often as large as any other field, if not larger.

The bottom line is this is club racing, there is a class for every machine....so there's going to be some differences in the level of competitiveness, that is the choice we make. If you think it's a big disparity here, you should go to a car race or track day. You have a guy in an '85 BMW in the same race with a $500,000 Porsche GT3 Cup car. We have it good by comparison!
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: twilkinson3 on March 24, 2014, 02:47:46 PM
I'll just add one small thought - why are bikes that out HP a middlewieght bike and may even out HP a Heavywieght bike...listed as Lightweight.  That one part has always been my one question...

Oh and honestly I think it's cheaper to race a competitive 600 than any LW bike in this day and age
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on March 24, 2014, 03:04:18 PM
I would think racing a 600 is cheaper once you get all the parts you need to race..But getting the best suspension work is alot.Well there are plenty of used parts for sale on ebay for those bikes.Racing an SV is about half the price as racing my Ducati in the same class,but I am 2 seconds a lap faster on the Duc compare to my Supersport SV.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on March 27, 2014, 12:40:37 PM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on March 24, 2014, 02:47:46 PM
I'll just add one small thought - why are bikes that out HP a middlewieght bike and may even out HP a Heavywieght bike...listed as Lightweight.  That one part has always been my one question...

Oh and honestly I think it's cheaper to race a competitive 600 than any LW bike in this day and age

If you're referring to Thunderbike or LW F40, those classes are not LW classes- they are sportsman classes that are meant to span LW and MW rules. They don't count towards overall points.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on March 27, 2014, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: apriliaman on March 24, 2014, 03:04:18 PM
I would think racing a 600 is cheaper once you get all the parts you need to race..But getting the best suspension work is alot.Well there are plenty of used parts for sale on ebay for those bikes.Racing an SV is about half the price as racing my Ducati in the same class,but I am 2 seconds a lap faster on the Duc compare to my Supersport SV.

To build a competitive expert MW machine is a lot more than you think. Graves SS R6 is $25k. It costs about the same to build an 848 for AMA competition. It looks easy but when you start adding up all the small parts, SS engine build, suspension components, chain,sprockets, sub frames, ecu, chain guard, etc. it adds up!
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Cowboy 6 on March 27, 2014, 06:31:02 PM
Thunderbike-no  but, last I checked the "LW" in LW F40 stands for Light Weight......
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on March 27, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
But for the small price of $25,000 you can buy your way to the top. :)

http://weraclassifieds.com/ads/ducati-1198-air-cooled-conversion/ (http://weraclassifieds.com/ads/ducati-1198-air-cooled-conversion/)

If 127hp isn't lightweight then I don't know what is.




Quote from: Gino230 on March 27, 2014, 12:40:37 PM
If you're referring to Thunderbike or LW F40, those classes are not LW classes- they are sportsman classes that are meant to span LW and MW rules. They don't count towards overall points.

So lightweight f40 and middleweight f40 aren't what their names make them sound like. Interesting.   Shouldn't it be called Thunderbike F40?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on March 27, 2014, 08:21:27 PM
CCS on a whole is billed as sportsman racing. Sportsman racing to me isn't about bone stock racing but putting differing packages together and taking it to the competition.

F40 and Thunderbike are sportsman classes. F40 are more from the GP basis and Thunderbike is from the older production motorcycle.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on March 28, 2014, 03:30:51 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on March 27, 2014, 12:44:48 PM
To build a competitive expert MW machine is a lot more than you think. Graves SS R6 is $25k. It costs about the same to build an 848 for AMA competition. It looks easy but when you start adding up all the small parts, SS engine build, suspension components, chain,sprockets, sub frames, ecu, chain guard, etc. it adds up!
I wanted to say racing a 600 could be less if you keep it stock engine not a built one other then suspension and normal mods and just race it for fun not to win every race.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on March 28, 2014, 04:29:20 PM
People race to have fun mark? bollocks
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 01, 2014, 01:31:44 AM
Quote from: Swiest on March 27, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
But for the small price of $25,000 you can buy your way to the top. :)

http://weraclassifieds.com/ads/ducati-1198-air-cooled-conversion/ (http://weraclassifieds.com/ads/ducati-1198-air-cooled-conversion/)

If 127hp isn't lightweight then I don't know what is.



About half the price of a Bimota or Pierbon......
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 01, 2014, 01:34:11 AM
Quote from: majicMARKer on March 27, 2014, 08:21:27 PM
CCS on a whole is billed as sportsman racing. Sportsman racing to me isn't about bone stock racing but putting differing packages together and taking it to the competition.

F40 and Thunderbike are sportsman classes. F40 are more from the GP basis and Thunderbike is from the older production motorcycle.

Exactly. These are sportsman classes that have allowed some older machines to compete. 250 GP bikes,  748 / 749, older 600cc machines, etc.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Doublea on April 01, 2014, 08:56:52 AM
I'll be honest, I'm sometimes quite annoyed when I grid up against Bimotas and Ducs on my SV, but I take it more as a challenge in the end. I didn't sign up for a spec class, and I realize that...the rules are the rules. The beauty of sportsman racing is the diversity. You can sit there and preach all day long about how he or she wouldn't come near you on the same bike, but guess what? They're not on the same bike, so you take what you're given and race. EOS.


If CCS realized SV's or ER6's didn't belong anywhere near Lightweights (or vice versa that Duc/Bim's didn't), they would change it. If you have the money to buy a fast bike, why woudn't you? We all want to win, right? Or at least, I do :)
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 05, 2014, 10:42:44 AM
These days lightweight class bikes have as much HP as 600's,but cannot do the same laptimes.My LW class Ducati has more power then my Aprilia RSV1000 streetbike if you can believe it.Well as far as lap times go Most of the time the fastest LW bike is 4-5 seconds a lap slower then the fastest of the 600 riders.As an example Summit point LW 1:18-1:20 fastest,600 1:13-1:15 most of the time  NJMP LW 1:30-1:31,  600 1:25-1:27
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 06, 2014, 10:48:42 AM
More data points Blackhawk MW 1:11-12 LW 1:13-14, Gateway MW 1:08ish LW 1:10-11, Daytona MW 1:52-53 LW 1:56-57
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 07, 2014, 09:15:12 AM
CCS LW is out of control.  The big money boys that write the checks drove the class in the direction it is in.   Show up with a $25-60K lw bike, gather your points up during the season, then show up at the ROC and pin it around the banking.   
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 07, 2014, 10:08:32 AM
Quote from: MACOP1104 on April 07, 2014, 09:15:12 AM
CCS LW is out of control.  The big money boys that write the checks drove the class in the direction it is in.   Show up with a $25-60K lw bike, gather your points up during the season, then show up at the ROC and pin it around the banking.   

Only because no one else did anything about it. We sell any lightweight racer a turnkey race bike more than capable of beating any of those high dollar bikes in GP classes for $12k.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 07, 2014, 10:45:04 AM
Only $12k? Phew for a second I thought you were gonna say a high price. -______-
I already know your come back, don't bother with it.  :)

QuoteOnly because no one did anything about it
So doing something about it is putting another 110-120+hp bike in the lightweight class? Congrats. You're apart of the problem, not the solution.



We're going to have basically 3 more middle weight classes.  And 3 lightweight classes.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 07, 2014, 10:57:48 AM
Quote from: Swiest on April 07, 2014, 10:45:04 AM
Only $12k? Phew for a second I thought you were gonna say a high price. -______-
I already know your come back, don't bother with it.  :)
So doing something about it is putting another 110-120+hp bike in the lightweight class? Congrats. You're apart of the problem, not the solution.

On how many forums are you going to object?  I'm sorry that you can't comprehend why our solution is a good and fair solution until rules are changed.  Instead of some kudos for taking the fight to the high dollar bikes, you want to moan about your SV.  How about some constructive engagement for a change?

Ironically, we've actually seen another organization changing their rules to fit our bike because they see the same deficiencies that we see in the current class structure.  In another organization, I've volunteered and committed to run a class up simply because it was packed with SVs although this year I know a guy running a Ducati/SV hybrid and last year there was a 108hp SV running.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 07, 2014, 11:16:42 AM
Don't get so butt hurt.   :ass:   I understand 100% what Ben is doing.  It's not hard to see at all.  It couldn't be any clearer.  That doesn't mean I have to grab your d1ck and give it a few good wanks.  :jerkoff:   Is there a reason why you get so upset when someone doesn't want these 565's out there?  You aren't the racing god's gift to this lightweight dilemma.   :biggrin:



We only have 1 fancy bike, Bimota 1100, here in Atlantic region and it gets beat by SS SV's.  ( just not by me :) )  I don't care about those expensive bikes, I think they're cool as hell.  I do however believe if a bike makes 110hp+, it shouldn't be in the lightweight category.  Even 100Hp is pushing it.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 07, 2014, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: Swiest on April 07, 2014, 11:16:42 AM
Don't get so butt hurt.   :ass:   I understand 100% what Ben is doing.  It's not hard to see at all.  It couldn't be any clearer.  That doesn't mean I have to grab your d1ck and give it a few good wanks.  :jerkoff:   Is there a reason why you get so upset when someone doesn't want these 565's out there?  You aren't the racing god's gift to this lightweight dilemma.   :biggrin:

Comical...and whatever.  I'm happy to have a constructive conversation with anyone.  Good luck this season.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 07, 2014, 12:22:20 PM
Am I going to see you at Jersey? :)




You don't like to have fun do you?  :kicknuts:
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 07, 2014, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Swiest on April 07, 2014, 12:22:20 PM
Am I going to see you at Jersey? :)
You don't like to have fun do you?  :kicknuts:

Sure I do just don't want it to look like an Internet pissing match. Right now NJMP is not on my schedule but Sept. VIR is.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 07, 2014, 02:50:39 PM
That's what the internet is for. :)

Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 07, 2014, 07:24:37 PM
 There should be another class just for air cooled bikes over 1000CC. Air cooled Biker Build Off Class.LW bikes at Daytona going 170mph is not LW,thats faster then stock 600's go.My Duc goes 155-160 and my SV goes 145 .I get passed like I'm not even there on the straights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX7UEp46m-M
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 07, 2014, 08:56:43 PM
LWGP and Thunderbike should be the 2 classes that allow the big Ducs and the 565.

GT Lights and LWT F40 should be SBK rules. Limit to 1000 air cooled 700cc water cooled. No motor swapping.  No down sizing motor.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 07, 2014, 09:41:02 PM
Quote from: apriliaman on April 07, 2014, 07:24:37 PM
There should be another class just for air cooled bikes over 1000CC. Air cooled Biker Build Off Class.LW bikes at Daytona going 170mph is not LW,thats faster then stock 600's go.My Duc goes 155-160 and my SV goes 145 .I get passed like I'm not even there on the straights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX7UEp46m-M

GREAT VIDEO.  I race a couple of CCS weekends but I'll never go to the ROC.  Waste of time and money.  In October, You'll find me at Barber at the WERA GNF.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 07, 2014, 09:58:47 PM
Mark, I don't think your bike is really making 105. Did you run it on the dyno? Getting 105 out of a DS means throttle bodies, exhaust (not just slip ons), and head work. I seem to remember you told me you were only sending the head to Ducshop every other season? And my SS bike was pulling you that year, with a stock motor (SS blueprint) with an ECU and custom exhaust, it was making 103.

It's hard to compare that to someone who has a fully built motor, running U4.4, that gets valve adjustments every other weekend. (Kat's bike in the video)

Regarding the class rules, Let's face it, the SV crowd will never be happy unless it's the SV cup. Endless bitching about the air cooled Ducs, they're too expensive, etc....well last time I checked, CCS writes the rulebook, if you want to win, you build a bike to the limits of the class rules. Period.


Now there is another, less expensive alternative to the Ducs (565) and still there is moaning and groaning. Even with all this, the SV's win the majority of LW races.

Should I go race AMA with a 10 year old 600 and bitch about the Graves R6 with Magnetti-Marelli electronics? Should the 150HP 600's be kicked up to Heavyweight? Time marches on, so does the HORSEPOWER
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 07, 2014, 10:20:16 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on April 07, 2014, 09:58:47 PM
Mark, I don't think your bike is really making 105. Did you run it on the dyno? Getting 105 out of a DS means throttle bodies, exhaust (not just slip ons), and head work. I seem to remember you told me you were only sending the head to Ducshop every other season? And my SS bike was pulling you that year, with a stock motor (SS blueprint) with an ECU and custom exhaust, it was making 103.

It's hard to compare that to someone who has a fully built motor, running U4.4, that gets valve adjustments every other weekend. (Kat's bike in the video)

Regarding the class rules, Let's face it, the SV crowd will never be happy unless it's the SV cup. Endless bitching about the air cooled Ducs, they're too expensive, etc....well last time I checked, CCS writes the rulebook, if you want to win, you build a bike to the limits of the class rules. Period.


Now there is another, less expensive alternative to the Ducs (565) and still there is moaning and groaning. Even with all this, the SV's win the majority of LW races.

Should I go race AMA with a 10 year old 600 and bitch about the Graves R6 with Magnetti-Marelli electronics? Should the 150HP 600's be kicked up to Heavyweight? Time marches on, so does the HORSEPOWER

I don't want to see an SV cup.  I'm waiting for the FZ-07 to get here.  It will be my new LWSS bike.  :)     
I would love for a new crop of LW bikes to replace the lame Kawi 650 and the lame Gladius.  I'm hoping the FZ-07 kick starts things.   
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 07, 2014, 10:37:25 PM
Mine is done by European Cycle Service in NY.It gets checked every winter then I don't do anything to it for the whole year so maybe it lost a few.Last October I was 2 seconds a lap faster at Daytona then in 2012. The only thing stock in my engine is the rods.The rest of my bike is stock and can easy be put on the street.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 07, 2014, 10:39:43 PM
If you want the most fair rules then race the unlimited class simple as that.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 07, 2014, 10:52:31 PM
This is supposed to be about the BMW HP2.Any way Nate did a 1:14.7 at Roebling Road which is less then 4 seconds from the lap record on the R1200S.So there is no need to ride the HP2.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 08, 2014, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: apriliaman on April 07, 2014, 10:52:31 PM
This is supposed to be about the BMW HP2.

Yeah but that's not enough drama. With a month between races we need more action on the forum.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 08, 2014, 01:53:20 PM
Quote from: MACOP1104 on April 07, 2014, 09:41:02 PM
GREAT VIDEO.  I race a couple of CCS weekends but I'll never go to the ROC.  Waste of time and money.  In October, You'll find me at Barber at the WERA GNF.

In general, the same guys win or would have a chance at winning at Daytona as do WERA GNF.  Some National class high speed tracks do reward HP for sure, but they also reward getting into and out of corners, braking skills, and other facets of bike setup that point and shoot tracks do not.  At least that's my real world experience at Road America, Barber, Heartland Park, and Daytona in terms of current and former "National class" tracks.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 08, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: sdiver68 on April 08, 2014, 01:53:20 PM
In general, the same guys win or would have a chance at winning at Daytona as do WERA GNF.  Some National class high speed tracks do reward HP for sure, but they also reward getting into and out of corners, braking skills, and other facets of bike setup that point and shoot tracks do not.  At least that's my real world experience at Road America, Barber, Heartland Park, and Daytona in terms of current and former "National class" tracks.
You're missing the point.  It's not about the riders, it's about the rules package.  I put a 15 year old kid on an SV I built in my garage and he beat everyone at the GNF.   No matter how good the kid is, there's no way he could do that at Daytona because somebody has a Peirobon racing LWSS. 
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 08, 2014, 03:21:40 PM
Quote from: MACOP1104 on April 08, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
You're missing the point.  It's not about the riders, it's about the rules package.  I put a 15 year old kid on an SV I built in my garage and he beat everyone at the GNF.   No matter how good the kid is, there's no way he could do that at Daytona because somebody has a Peirobon racing LWSS. 

I know who your very talented son is and I respectfully sort of disagree.  There are 2 classes that he would have done very well at 2013 Daytona.  Superbike Ultralight and Supersport Lightweight.  I strongly suspect lightweight is just a stepping stone for him, where as many of us lightweight guys are on the mature side of our careers.  If lightweight Daytona was the goal then you might have made some different choices.  FWIW, there was no Pierobon in either of those classes.

My point and again it's about the rules package, there are 2 lightweight classes in CCS where you don't have to worry about the exotics.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 08, 2014, 04:01:44 PM
Sorry, you're not a lightweight guy on a 565, you're a middleweight guy afraid to race middleweight :)


Also, the kid he's talking about is not his son. Are you sure you know who he's talking about?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 08, 2014, 05:02:19 PM
Quote from: Swiest on April 08, 2014, 04:01:44 PM
Also, the kid he's talking about is not his son. Are you sure you know who he's talking about?

My bad for assuming that was his son, assuming Xavier is the very talented guy we are talking about.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 08, 2014, 08:59:35 PM
Quote from: sdiver68 on April 08, 2014, 05:02:19 PM
My bad for assuming that was his son, assuming Xavier is the very talented guy we are talking about.

Yep, Xman is a great kid with a ton of talent.  I help him as much as I can.  ULWSB is just about the only class an SV has a chance at Daytona. 
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: grasslander on April 11, 2014, 09:16:26 PM
Is a Bimota's allowed in LWSS?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 12, 2014, 12:07:25 PM
It was sold as a street bike so yes. That said, I don't think there's one racing that meet SS rules.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 14, 2014, 10:22:40 PM
So what's up with the hybrid Ducatis in LWSB?   848/749 chassis with 1100 motor?  Didn't Al Smith protest those bikes last year in LWSB?    I thought they were DQd?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 15, 2014, 08:44:50 AM
I didn't even think about it but you're right.  I think Melka was the only one
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 15, 2014, 11:40:44 AM
I told the officials the rules in SBK and they say   
if they see it they will do something----well I told them so they should see it and they dont
then they say you need to fill out the paperwork and protest then they do something
SBK or Thunderbike you need a VIN##### for street use on the bike! so the X60R bike is not allowed
Not allowed to lower the class of the bike  so aircooled engine in a middleweight bike to make it lightweight is not allowed. Also no 565 GSXR in LWSBK or Thunderbike is not allowed also.GTL, LWGP,LW F40,Supertwins is OK to race.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on April 15, 2014, 03:49:41 PM
Melka rode in GT lights on a air-cooled/748 hybrid. It is legal for the class. In a production it would not be legal
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 16, 2014, 07:49:14 AM
So what was he on in Lightweight SBK?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Jon Glaefke on April 16, 2014, 10:58:19 PM
Wow is someone picking on me and my 325# Pierobon. Besides having and old guy riding it it's been beat by SV's, EXs and a couple other lets just say less exotic bikes than it through the years.I read the rulebook, consulted with Eric and comply with the rules fully.Feel free to protest me any day of the week but I'm afraid it's happened and you'll lose your $$.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 17, 2014, 07:19:18 AM
Quote from: Jon Glaefke on April 16, 2014, 10:58:19 PM
Wow is someone picking on me and my 325# Pierobon. Besides having and old guy riding it it's been beat by SV's, EXs and a couple other lets just say less exotic bikes than it through the years.I read the rulebook, consulted with Eric and comply with the rules fully.Feel free to protest me any day of the week but I'm afraid it's happened and you'll lose your $$.

Not you.   Your bike has original frame and motor as required for superbike.   
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 17, 2014, 09:37:40 AM
No one's picking on you.  :ass:
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Jon Glaefke on April 17, 2014, 09:43:46 PM
That's good because 11:30 at night on a school night I get really sensitive. I'm just looking for some good racing wherever I can find it and by God if it's half way across the universe, I'm there. See you guys in Jersey
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 17, 2014, 11:35:34 PM
All I want to know does it have a VIN number on the frame that is it :-) not a frame ID number.My bikes have VIN numbers on them and I can put tags on them and drive them down the road.Like that.
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/sport-classic/68109d1273721018-paul-smart-questions-vin.jpg (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/sport-classic/68109d1273721018-paul-smart-questions-vin.jpg)




http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh88/funbiz99/d-dtracker%20dtr250/20130411_100953.jpg
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Jon Glaefke on April 18, 2014, 10:24:51 AM
The Pierobon indeed does have a vin number stamped into the frame, can and has been registered as a streetbike and as a matter a fact I have a brochure for your inspection on the streetbike sold throughout Europe and available in the US. I have given Eric the last three years all documentation and letters from Massimo Pierobon that certifies this bike as available, manufactured in large enough numbers to satisfy it's competition here.
   I have to again defer you to Eric and I will comply with his decision for or against your claim. Frankly, if I or Shane Turpin had just shown up at Daytona with the bikes without being proactive in making the CCS aware of what they were, I would expect to be protested but as we both along with Boulder Motorsports and Massimo Pierobon were proactive in providing the necessary documentation I have to ask why four years after we first showed up why this argument still rages on? 
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 18, 2014, 10:37:55 AM

No one is saying that your bike isn't legal for LWTSBK.   You don't need to defend yourself.


Just saying it's bullsh1t.   :lmao:
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on April 18, 2014, 01:02:07 PM
Don't worry in almost 800 races I did I never protested anyone.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 21, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
Quote from: Jon Glaefke on April 18, 2014, 10:24:51 AM
I have to ask why four years after we first showed up why this argument still rages on? 

At one time, the LW class was primarily FZR400s, EX500s, and Honda Hawks.  Budget bikes that for the most part were race prepped for a moderate (affordable) price by racers who tended to be a bit older, weren't too fond of dicing it up in the 4 cylinder classes, and didn't have a ton of cash to spend on their racing program.  There were some specials out there that made big horsepower.  Frank Strohman had EX500s and Matt Blashfield had Honda Hawks built to the max making 85ish hp.   In 1999, the SV650 showed up with contingency and the Suzuki Cup.   Obviously the SV became the bike to have for supersport (superstock).  There were some big air cooled Ducatis around but they were in the open lightweight classes (heavyweight sportsman?).   These bikes were usually 1990s air cooled Ducati 750s and 900s with superbike motors.  I'm not sure when it happened (2003-2005?) but Ducati updated their air cooled bikes and came out with the 800 and 1000DS with a contingency program and a race prepped bike from the dealer.  The bike was allowed into LW classes (where else would it go?)  and now you had 75-80 hp supersport SV650s competing against 88-94 hp supersport Ducati 1000s.  You can say it's the next step in the evolution of the LW bikes but it was also a jump in cost that the budget lightweight racer had to absorb to be competitive.   I think the 1000DS was around 10 grand and a SV was around 6 grand.  So now, the "specials" are allowed in LW classes (Bimota DB5R, Peirobon, hybrid Ducatis).  The class that consisted of budget racers who could be competitive on a $3000-5000 used race bike just got blown wide open.   Now, If you set aside rider skill, you have to spend no less than 20-25 grand for a competitive bike in lightweight classes.  It's cheaper to race a 600 than it is to race a competitive LW bike in CCS.  The foundation I'm laying is that the LW class was originally made up of a bunch of budget racers, and in my opinion, that's where the animosity toward the exotic bikes comes from. 
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 21, 2014, 12:08:20 PM
You may have a point, however ALL OF CLUB RACING "was originally was made up of a bunch of budget racers." Over the 10 year period you describe, all the bikes (and racing, for that matter) have gotten more expensive, so a dollar comparison over a 15 year period isn't really accurate.

When I started racing CCS 15 years ago, you could buy an inexpensive bike like you described (I had a $2,500 1989 Ducati 750 Sport) and be competitive as an amateur. But you knew you were just racing to improve with a small chance of winning because you were on older machinery.

You can still buy a $3-5000 race bike and be competitive in LW. But no matter the class, you're probably not going to win on an older, inexpensive racebike.

As I said, would you expect to show up in AMA with a 10 year old GSXR and be able to win?

And BTW, there is a dedicated class for the older machines, it's Ultra Light Superbike and the "exotics" are not allowed. So you have a class specifically for the older, less expensive, outdated LW machines and still there is moaning and groaning.

Even after ALL OF THE ABOVE, The 10 year old SV still wins the majority of the LW races nationwide. Makes me think that the guys who are going to win, will win regardless, exotic bike or not.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 21, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on April 21, 2014, 12:08:20 PM. But no matter the class, you're probably not going to win on an older, inexpensive racebike.

Quote from: Gino230 on April 21, 2014, 12:08:20 PM.
The 10 year old SV still wins the majority of the LW races nationwide.

So you're saying there's a chance.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 21, 2014, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: Gino230 on April 21, 2014, 12:08:20 PM
Even after ALL OF THE ABOVE, The 10 year old SV still wins the majority of the LW races nationwide. Makes me think that the guys who are going to win, will win regardless, exotic bike or not.

Rider ability (talent) has nothing to do with the eligibility of machinery in a class.

  Is there still such a thing as performance indexing?  The only thing I would ask for is the Pierobon and the Bimota to be performance indexed out of LWSB.  Too much machinery for the class.  They could still run LWGP, GTL, LWF40, Thunderbike, Team Challenge.   By the rules, the hybrids aren't allowed to run in LWSS and LWSB so they're not an issue. 

Yes, I'm aware of ULWSB.  It's specifically there for machines that can't run with the 1100cc air cooled bikes.   




 
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 21, 2014, 01:51:23 PM
Simple fact is that the 1100s can run with the middleweights.  I watched it happen at CMP.  I watched an 1100 pass a 600 on the straight.  A bike that is legal for LWSBK.


I believe it was Starns on one of them who did a 1:35 in the team challenge.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: bruce71198 on April 21, 2014, 06:17:21 PM
Quote from: Swiest on April 21, 2014, 01:51:23 PM
Simple fact is that the 1100s can run with the middleweights.  I watched it happen at CMP.  I watched an 1100 pass a 600 on the straight.  A bike that is legal for LWSBK.



I saw a SV pass a 600 at CMP as well
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: backMARKr on April 21, 2014, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: Swiest on April 21, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
So you're saying there's a chance.

That was funny Sam.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on April 21, 2014, 11:15:29 PM
Quote from: Swiest on April 21, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
So you're saying there's a chance.

Yeah I was referring to the EX 500, Hawk, etc.

Quote from: Swiest on April 21, 2014, 01:51:23 PM
Simple fact is that the 1100s can run with the middleweights.  I watched it happen at CMP.  I watched an 1100 pass a 600 on the straight.  A bike that is legal for LWSBK.


I believe it was Starns on one of them who did a 1:35 in the team challenge.

Yes and Mike Barnes used to come in top 3 in the unlimited class on his 600. So I take it the 600's should be bumped up to unlimited?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 22, 2014, 12:01:31 AM
Quote from: Gino230 on April 21, 2014, 11:15:29 PM
Yeah I was referring to the EX 500, Hawk, etc.

No, you didn't get it at all. :)
Quote
Yes and Mike Barnes used to come in top 3 in the unlimited class on his 600. So I take it the 600's should be bumped up to unlimited?

Yea lots of 600s do.  But they don't make passes when it comes to having power.  A "lightweight" bike shouldn't be able to pass a middleweight bike on the straight.  Again, no lightweight bike should be 120-130hp.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on April 22, 2014, 09:59:14 AM
Quote from: Swiest on April 22, 2014, 12:01:31 AM
  A "lightweight" bike shouldn't be able to pass a middleweight bike on the straight.  Again, no lightweight bike should be 120-130hp.

Thats only if you are looking at it merely from the indexing of power to weight, or some sort of performance index. Sure it is acceptable for a lightweight bike to produce 120-130 hp. many times it is depending on the dyno that was used. My 87hp Ducati 800 is nowhere close to the 80hp SV that I race against, it just isn't the same.

A lightweight bike producing 120hp is a testament to the builder, they get credit too in my eyes. if I could afford one of those high HP lightweight bikes I think I would build one too, the GSXR565 is mighty inviting.

Middleweight and it's cost? If I were to get into a stock off the showroom floor middleweight then I could do it fairly cheap, it won't be $5000. a current middleweight built to be competitive is going to be around $25K. put more motor to it for say AMA DSB spec and the cost goes up.

Lightweight and it's cost? Stock off the showroom floor for an SV...maybe $8K. how much more would you be willing to put into it for the race stuff...maybe another $2500? Suspension, rear sets, pipe and suitable tune, not to mention going into the motor for anything at all.

Yeah I obtained my basket case 1989 FZR400 for $400. I then spent another $300 to make it race worthy. It's not going to win any lightweight races.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: bruce71198 on April 22, 2014, 10:16:14 AM
So..... how bout that BMW HP2?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 22, 2014, 10:22:04 AM
It's not legal. :)
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on April 22, 2014, 06:17:15 PM
Just curious, what people think about running two supersport races during a weekend and getting rid of one of the modified classes.

I look at it that this is club racing.  It is suppose to be, somewhat, budget racing.

Currently, in CCS, there is LWSS, LWSB, ULWSB, LWGP, LWF40 (for us old guys) and GTL.  I would just love to see more rider vs rider racing instead of pocket book vs pocket book racing.

As for the 565, is that a sleeved down 4 cylinder or a triple now?  If it is a triple, would it be legal to run in any of the LW classes?  There is no listing for triples.  I am guessing it is just a sleeved down 4.

I don't have a problem with the high dollar SS Ducatis, Bimotas, etc.  I see that as how the LW class is going to go when the prices come down on the 1100 Ducatis.  They are the future.  Like the SV was to the Hawk 650s and Yamaha 400s.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 22, 2014, 07:19:16 PM
Except the SV didn't cost that much and didn't make that much more power.  People were spending big bucks on their Hawks.  Many 80hp, which is a good number for SV too.  The SV was just cheaper to get 80hp out of and way more reliable.  Not $15k(on the low side) and 130hp.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Doublea on April 22, 2014, 07:35:39 PM
The GSXR 565 that belongs to Bruce Barry is a destroked 600. All 4 cylinders are active.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 22, 2014, 09:17:42 PM
Quote from: Capitalview on April 22, 2014, 06:17:15 PM
I don't have a problem with the high dollar SS Ducatis, Bimotas, etc.  I see that as how the LW class is going to go when the prices come down on the 1100 Ducatis.  They are the future.  Like the SV was to the Hawk 650s and Yamaha 400s.

Air cooled two valve bikes are the future?   I would think bikes like the FZ-07 are the future LW bikes
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on April 22, 2014, 10:12:47 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on April 22, 2014, 10:16:14 AM
So..... how bout that BMW HP2?
The BMW was presented as a Middleweight bike, so was my 1991 FZR600 presented as a middleweight bike. Neither is permitted as a lightweight bike.

The FZR600 does not make 130HP and thats with the 630cc configuration breathing through Flatslide carbs.

The 565cc displacement was meant for the older 400's such as the FZR400. It's just that the rules haven't changed and someone has used it to produce the 565cc from a current middleweight bike.

The 1200cc was probably meant for the Harley 1200 and yeah the Harley needs it. The Ducati boys and girls have capitalized on it, now many want to outlaw that rule.

The lightweight bikes get faster. The middleweight bikes will get faster. Someone will learn to build it.

Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 22, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
Quote from: majicMARKer on April 22, 2014, 10:12:47 PM
The BMW was presented as a Middleweight bike, so was my 1991 FZR600 presented as a middleweight bike. Neither is permitted as a lightweight bike.

The FZR600 does not make 130HP and thats with the 630cc configuration breathing through Flatslide carbs.

The 565cc displacement was meant for the older 400's such as the FZR400. It's just that the rules haven't changed and someone has used it to produce the 565cc from a current middleweight bike.

The 1200cc was probably meant for the Harley 1200 and yeah the Harley needs it. The Ducati boys and girls have capitalized on it, now many want to outlaw that rule.

The lightweight bikes get faster. The middleweight bikes will get faster. Someone will learn to build it.



YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! 
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on April 23, 2014, 12:51:49 AM
The 1100 Ducatis are making 100 hp stock (per Ducati).  Maybe get up to 110-120 with SS mods.  (I am guessing there).  You can pick up an older used Monster 1100 for about $8500.  $9500 with nice mods.  The S2R 1000 or SS 1000s are going for about $6500.  New, the monsters were going for 11k.  Looking at HP ratings though, LW should now include the Ducati 748 and 851 too.  They make the same, or less, HP as the 1100 and actually weigh more.

My main point was that maybe CCS should look at slimming down the various classes and running double SS races instead.  Yes, you would still have the "high dollar" bikes.  I could live with that if I could buy a 7-8k Ducati and not have to put an additional 3-5k into just the engine to be competitive in the other LW classes.  I would also be able to run more races without having to spend the extra money on engine mods.

Right now, if you run a SS bike that is, most likely, the only class you will be competitive in.  You can run in the other LW classes, but you probably won't be very competitive with the highly modified bikes.

I am betting, like me, many want to run in as many races in one weekend as possible, still be competitive, and not have to spend a fortune on their bike.  That is why I posed the question of getting rid of one of the heavy modification classes to keep costs down and still be able to run and be competitive in more than one race a weekend.


And yes, until someone comes out with a better option in the LW classes, the air cooled two valve desmo bikes are the future.  At least by the current rule set.  If CCS wants to put the desmo valve restrictions on the air cooled bikes that would change everything.  Of course, you still have the 100 HP Buell XB12R, which the 1203cc rule is for.

There is only one liquid cooled 4 valve bike out there that even comes close.  That is the Aprilia Shiver.  They make 95 hp.  They still weigh more than the Ducatis though.  They also don't have the performance parts support, or general parts support for that matter, the Ducatis have.

The FZ-07 is interesting, but it is still running 41mm, non adjustable, front end, and listed as having 75 hp.  The literature actually states "This engine is not about big specification numbers; it produces 75 hp. and 50 ft. lbs. of torque and is designed to maximize riding fun in the real world." Sixth gear is designed specifically as an overdrive too.  (This is from Yamaha Canada)    FZ-07 (http://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/details.php?model=4477#hs)

You are going to need more than just an exhaust and dyno tune to make it effective against the air cooled, two valve Ducs.  Which again means dropping large money on engine mods.  I much prefer the K.I.S.S. rule.  I would rather run an air cooled Ducati, which is better tuned, both engine and suspension, for racing, than have to rip into an engine and suspension that is purposely tuned for "the real world".

Yes, I know the SV was once like the FZ-07.  But that was also 15 years ago.  I would think Yamaha could have at least bumped the engine to 85 or 95 hp.  The biggest advantage the FZ will have is its weight.  397 lbs wet vs, say, a 2005 Ducati 1000 DS at 395 dry (Both being in stock, unmodified form).  The Yamaha is still down almost 20 HP and 20 Ft lbs of torque though. (Numbers from manufacturers published data)
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on April 23, 2014, 06:52:31 AM
This post is merely for discussion sake and not challenging anything that anyone has posted, but it could be construed as so. It is meant more s a response.

The Ducati 1100 in the real world produces 94rwhp on the Superflow dyno. This is accomplished with minor mods such as pipe, airway mods and a good tune. Additionally, the Superflow dyno this bike is tested on is known to read 10% higher than say a dynojet dyno.

My Ducati 800, which is essentially the same weight as the 1000/1100, weighs in at 365# on the ASRA scales. It has lighter Marchessini wheels(forged aluminum) and a carbon tank. Bill Wissinger's SV weighs in at 335# with modified front and rear subframes.

The business end of CCS: If I were the owner of CCS I would be looking at the bottom line. I would cater to what the mass' are attending. For whatever reason there is little participation in the SS class even though modifications are little, or are they. You may argue more participation would be there if it were cheaper to run. I would question which rider is likely to participate in more races the guy that is the budget racer or the guy spending money on his bike? I can't imagine someone spending $30K on his bike to only run a couple races.

In my eyes all the bikes in the lightweight class are based upon entry level bikes and not performance oriented bikes. Yes the Ducati SS was produced in a race form(removal of lights) and they performed well. It worked, there are more Ducatis in the racing line up. Until any of the manufacturers produce a bike within the rules that dominate the others then we must settle with what we have. I see it as the challenge and not the handicap.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: bruce71198 on April 23, 2014, 07:52:03 AM
Quote from: Doublea on April 22, 2014, 07:35:39 PM
The GSXR 565 that belongs to Bruce Barry is a destroked 600. All 4 cylinders are active.

Just for the record, I don't own that bike.  Ben Probst built and owns it. He is kind enough to lend it to us to race. And just for perspective he can put a whole bike together for $12-18,000 depending on how much bike you want. Engines are also available.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Doublea on April 23, 2014, 09:03:58 AM
My mistake- I think I read Ben's posts about the bike build on SVRider.... Pretty awesome stuff, where is he based?
I believe I talked to you about it at RRR when I was pitted with Miguel.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 23, 2014, 06:29:26 PM
Quote from: Doublea on April 23, 2014, 09:03:58 AM
My mistake- I think I read Ben's posts about the bike build on SVRider.... Pretty awesome stuff, where is he based?

St Louis, MO. And thank you... you probably saw my posts on SVRider...the forum which inspired our design.  For the record, the 565 can be ordered from Ben a number of different ways at several price points, from engine build/tune only to brand new builds.  A fresh replica of my CCS Championship caliber bike can be had for about $12k.  There are options above and below that price point.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: benprobst on April 23, 2014, 07:07:20 PM
Thanks guys. Just a reminder the 565 y'all have seen running the TC rounds are built and supported out of St. Louis by BP Performance. The bikes are the brainchild of Steve and I and running with the support of both of us. Everyone will be seeing more of them, as I think that every top LW guy in the TC and many sprint only e in contact and ordered or in the planning stage.  Again we are putting these on the grid with top quality components for 10-12k with rebuilds scheduled for every couple of years. As opposed to every two hours as reported by the big dollar Ducati boys. If this is the LW class CCS wants, then the 565 is far and away the most economical way to go.  Even compared to the SV.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on April 23, 2014, 09:42:48 PM
Quote from: majicMARKer on April 23, 2014, 06:52:31 AM
The business end of CCS: If I were the owner of CCS I would be looking at the bottom line. I would cater to what the mass' are attending. For whatever reason there is little participation in the SS class even though modifications are little, or are they. You may argue more participation would be there if it were cheaper to run. I would question which rider is likely to participate in more races the guy that is the budget racer or the guy spending money on his bike? I can't imagine someone spending $30K on his bike to only run a couple races.

In my eyes all the bikes in the lightweight class are based upon entry level bikes and not performance oriented bikes. Yes the Ducati SS was produced in a race form(removal of lights) and they performed well. It worked, there are more Ducatis in the racing line up. Until any of the manufacturers produce a bike within the rules that dominate the others then we must settle with what we have. I see it as the challenge and not the handicap.

Well, this is exactly my point.  If you don't have to drop gobs of money into engine mods you would have more money to spend on races.  Spending money on your bike does not help the bottom line of CCS.  Having more money to participate at more events does.  If someone is spending money to race in the first place and they don't have to drop the extra 2k into their bike, they will have that money to spend on racing.

I agree, LW is based upon entry level bikes, which, by their nature, are cheaper to buy and run.  Unfortunately that isn't so true in some areas.

If someone has the means to drop 30k on a bike why are they running LW?  Why aren't they running MW, HW, or unlimited then?  I am genuinely asking too.  Why waste 30k on a lightweight bike?  For that matter, why waist 30k on any bike in a club race setting.  That baffles my mind.  Of course, I don't have that kind of disposable income to spend on anything that doesn't feed, shelter or help provide for my family.  I realize it varies by person, but that just seems like someone is trying to buy a championship.

The 565 is interesting, but again, 10-12k is a bit outside my price range.  Plus, I am a sucker for twins.  Although, I guess if I want to have a chance at winning I will be saving.  That starts with a GSX-R 600?  Might need to start picking up parts to have one built.

By the way, this is a discussion.  I don't take offense to a different point of view.  A well reasoned opposing point of view is a good thing.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on April 24, 2014, 06:34:53 AM
I'm going to take an SV1000 and install air cooled billet cylinders with cooling fins on it.  I'll grind the cam lobes flat so only 2 valves work, then add an additional oil cooler and route the oil through the cylinder heads.   There it is, an air cooled two valve 1000cc bike.  Sounds like an overweight dud already lol....
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 24, 2014, 06:55:27 AM
Quote from: MACOP1104 on April 24, 2014, 06:34:53 AM
I'm going to take an SV1000 and install air cooled billet cylinders with cooling fins on it.  I'll grind the cam lobes flat so only 2 valves work, then add an additional oil cooler and route the oil through the cylinder heads.   There it is, an air cooled two valve 1000cc bike.  Sounds like an overweight dud already lol....

That's the spirit of a GP bike!
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: benprobst on April 24, 2014, 09:45:40 AM
Quote from: Capitalview on April 23, 2014, 09:42:48 PM
Well, this is exactly my point.  If you don't have to drop gobs of money into engine mods you would have more money to spend on races.  Spending money on your bike does not help the bottom line of CCS.  Having more money to participate at more events does.  If someone is spending money to race in the first place and they don't have to drop the extra 2k into their bike, they will have that money to spend on racing.

I agree, LW is based upon entry level bikes, which, by their nature, are cheaper to buy and run.  Unfortunately that isn't so true in some areas.

If someone has the means to drop 30k on a bike why are they running LW?  Why aren't they running MW, HW, or unlimited then?  I am genuinely asking too.  Why waste 30k on a lightweight bike?  For that matter, why waist 30k on any bike in a club race setting.  That baffles my mind.  Of course, I don't have that kind of disposable income to spend on anything that doesn't feed, shelter or help provide for my family.  I realize it varies by person, but that just seems like someone is trying to buy a championship.

The 565 is interesting, but again, 10-12k is a bit outside my price range.  Plus, I am a sucker for twins.  Although, I guess if I want to have a chance at winning I will be saving.  That starts with a GSX-R 600?  Might need to start picking up parts to have one built.

By the way, this is a discussion.  I don't take offense to a different point of view.  A well reasoned opposing point of view is a good thing.


As tough as it is, it's something I've been forced to learn, and I suggest you try to look at it this way. Money isn't the same to everyone, neither is racing. I'm a middle class guy, so spending 15-20k a year to go racing is a big deal and a real effort that requires planning and cost control. Not everyone is like that. And placing others in your income bracket/mentality is really a waste of brain power. For some guys, 20k is their consulting fee for a weekend flight to South America, or their 100k racing budget for the year is their 1st quarter sales bonus. It's their money, they should be able to spend it as they please.


Who am I/you/anyone to say how they spend it or what class they race in. We are all exercising some form of  a ridiculous hobby, and those spending 10k a season to go racing are in many cases even more ridiculous than those spending 100k when you compare that to their annual income or financial standing.


In my opinion, the issue here is the class structure. I hate a society or mindset that punishes people for excellence. The class rules are clear, why are those who take advantage of it the bad guys. I disagree with a LW class that allows a 120hp pierrbon to race, but it's legal and therefor I applaud their effort. We also decided to not sit back and take it, so we built a bike that I think can beat it, and did it very economically. Which is at the heart of the LW class, even when applied to the Ducati iterations some love and others loathe. It's a builders class, not everyone wants to race a 600/1000 cookie cutter Japanese bike, and I'm glad for that. Some of the absolute coolest bikes out there are in the LW class. They are different and unique, and just because someone enjoys them and has more money than I do to spend, doesn't mean they should be forced to ride a 1000 or forced to ride a 4000 dollar SV.


It's racing. We're here to win. Some are here to have fun. But there needs to be a conscious split of those mind sets. I assure you, if you show up to BHF and enter MWSB with a 3500 dollar 1999 F4 with a lets have fun mindset, you will have your teeth kicked in by a 1st class rider on a 1st class bike who is there to win. Why should it be any different in LW?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: benprobst on April 24, 2014, 09:47:12 AM
Quote from: MACOP1104 on April 24, 2014, 06:34:53 AM
I'm going to take an SV1000 and install air cooled billet cylinders with cooling fins on it.  I'll grind the cam lobes flat so only 2 valves work, then add an additional oil cooler and route the oil through the cylinder heads.   There it is, an air cooled two valve 1000cc bike.  Sounds like an overweight dud already lol....


I have drawings, notes, and parts for something close to this. You missed a few opportunities for power, but you're on the right track. I'll do it eventually.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 24, 2014, 09:59:29 AM
Gotta use the 1200cc piston kit.  Put motor in ducati frame. Boy that'll make some ducfanboys mad.


Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on April 24, 2014, 10:25:07 AM
Good points Ben. You are right too. 

I would just love to see more people racing.  I know a bunch of people taking the LCR school in may starting in LW.  I want to see them continue and not be discouraged by the costs.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: benprobst on April 24, 2014, 10:31:19 AM
Quote from: Swiest on April 24, 2014, 09:59:29 AM
Gotta use the 1200cc piston kit.  Put motor in ducati frame. Boy that'll make some ducfanboys mad.


Wrong chassis. But correct piston size.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: benprobst on April 24, 2014, 10:32:24 AM
Quote from: Capitalview on April 24, 2014, 10:25:07 AM
Good points Ben. You are right too. 

I would just love to see more people racing.  I know a bunch of people taking the LCR school in may starting in LW.  I want to see them continue and not be discouraged by the costs.


The good news is they have two years where the bike makes zero difference. They are also starting up north where SVs have and will continue to win 99% of the races.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: George_Linhart on April 24, 2014, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: benprobst on April 24, 2014, 09:45:40 AM

As tough as it is, it's something I've been forced to learn, and I suggest you try to look at it this way. Money isn't the same to everyone, neither is racing. I'm a middle class guy, so spending 15-20k a year to go racing is a big deal and a real effort that requires planning and cost control. Not everyone is like that. And placing others in your income bracket/mentality is really a waste of brain power. For some guys, 20k is their consulting fee for a weekend flight to South America, or their 100k racing budget for the year is their 1st quarter sales bonus. It's their money, they should be able to spend it as they please.


Who am I/you/anyone to say how they spend it or what class they race in. We are all exercising some form of  a ridiculous hobby, and those spending 10k a season to go racing are in many cases even more ridiculous than those spending 100k when you compare that to their annual income or financial standing.


In my opinion, the issue here is the class structure. I hate a society or mindset that punishes people for excellence. The class rules are clear, why are those who take advantage of it the bad guys. I disagree with a LW class that allows a 120hp pierrbon to race, but it's legal and therefor I applaud their effort. We also decided to not sit back and take it, so we built a bike that I think can beat it, and did it very economically. Which is at the heart of the LW class, even when applied to the Ducati iterations some love and others loathe. It's a builders class, not everyone wants to race a 600/1000 cookie cutter Japanese bike, and I'm glad for that. Some of the absolute coolest bikes out there are in the LW class. They are different and unique, and just because someone enjoys them and has more money than I do to spend, doesn't mean they should be forced to ride a 1000 or forced to ride a 4000 dollar SV.


It's racing. We're here to win. Some are here to have fun. But there needs to be a conscious split of those mind sets. I assure you, if you show up to BHF and enter MWSB with a 3500 dollar 1999 F4 with a lets have fun mindset, you will have your teeth kicked in by a 1st class rider on a 1st class bike who is there to win. Why should it be any different in LW?

Wow!  Ben, do we finally agree on something?

We have had some epic internet battles on this exact point...

George
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: jfboothe on April 25, 2014, 08:01:43 AM
I have been following this thread and find it very interesting. What classes is this GSXR 565 legal for?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on April 25, 2014, 08:18:19 AM
You havent been following it very well then.  :)

GTL, Lightweight GP, and LW F40
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: jfboothe on April 25, 2014, 10:19:25 AM
Well I thought I was. :) I thought the thread started as BMW bikes in LW SS, SB, etc. That was my confusion...

That's my story and I am sticking to it.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on April 25, 2014, 10:23:02 AM
Come on, when does a topic on an internet forum ever actually stay on topic!
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: bruce71198 on April 25, 2014, 10:44:20 AM
Quote from: Capitalview on April 25, 2014, 10:23:02 AM
Come on, when does a topic on an internet forum ever actually stay on topic!
is a frog ass really water tight?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on April 25, 2014, 11:06:13 AM
Yes. 

Next off topic question.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Doublea on April 27, 2014, 11:43:33 AM
Sorry guys, I could NOT resist this.... Guy selling is PS1000 with a 1080 kit on the Classifieds.
Tell me this doesn't sum up the trouble us SV guys have, lol. All in good fun, nothing against the guy or the bike.


Direct quote from his For Sale post:

"[size=78%]Anyway, I won all four races, I'd just follow everyone around, see their lines, then just pull out and pass on the straights.  Only the experts on the Ducati/Bimotas were harder to pass."[/size]
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: sdiver68 on April 27, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
Steal for that bike!
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: roadracer162 on April 27, 2014, 03:03:39 PM
Ben, you said everything that I wanted to say but just didn't have the words to convey it. I like the builders class that it is. There are many that can make an SV go as well. Same power? No, not necessarily but the smaller GSXR is mighty inviting. Of course my delema is whether or not to go mini GSXR or go full on middle weight
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Jon Glaefke on May 09, 2014, 12:43:24 AM
Damn everyone sure got quite after an SV smoked the field at New Jersey.Could it be that after all that it's the rider not the bike that wins races because it sure seems that way to me. I won't be making it beyond Summit so normalcy will be restored along the Mid Atlantic region.Regardless thanks to those of you that were willing to accept me and/or my bike.I had a great time and if ever in Colorado look me or The Motorcycle Roadracing Association up cause we've got some bitching tracks/riders too.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: LWT Racer on May 09, 2014, 02:02:31 PM
It was quiet before this past NJMP weekend so it had nothing to do with Lil Mazz and others smoking you on their SV650s. :)  Why do you keep saying people aren't accepting you?  It's been established multiple times now that you and your bike are okay.  Yes it out classes the SV but it is legal.

Also NJMP is not a HP track so of course SV is going to be very good.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: apriliaman on May 09, 2014, 06:17:45 PM
Its always fun racing with you.You may like Summit point better as is an old style track.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Jon Glaefke on May 13, 2014, 05:44:41 PM
Seriously, didnt mean to whine but it just seemed everyone or most were of the opinion that an old guy riding a cool or at least different bike was wrong.I've raced Hawks, SV's, TLS's TLR's GSXR's and CBR's a BMW Boxer and more than a few Ducati's when it came to a retirement bike a Pierobon was it.I'll miss you guys but hope to see you at Summit one last time.Cheers
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: MACOP1104 on May 15, 2014, 07:06:08 AM
The bike is very cool, and everybody likes to see new riders at the track whatever you're riding.  The discussion has nothing to do with the rider.  After all, bikes are classified by the machines ability, not the rider's ability.   Have fun riding that thing.  It's a work of art!
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on July 07, 2014, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: bruce71198 on April 23, 2014, 07:52:03 AM
Just for the record, I don't own that bike.  Ben Probst built and owns it. He is kind enough to lend it to us to race. And just for perspective he can put a whole bike together for $12-18,000 depending on how much bike you want. Engines are also available.

Hey What happened with this bike at RA? I heard there was some drama about the way it was stroked??
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on July 07, 2014, 05:44:26 PM
Probst said it is 580cc, not 565.  I heard that from Rick Breuer.  He was not making an official statement though.  I just happened to be there when he made the comment.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Gino230 on July 07, 2014, 08:59:22 PM
Did someone protest?
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Capitalview on July 07, 2014, 09:29:01 PM
Yes.  I don't know who it was though.
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: SVbadguy on July 07, 2014, 10:36:34 PM
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=316925&page=2 (http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=316925&page=2)
Title: Re: BMW HP2 Sport
Post by: Dragon on July 08, 2014, 10:15:09 AM
Now its official!

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/tobc-600-wins-asra-team-challenge-at-road-america/

Scroll down to the GTL team challenge part to see how they were disqualified