What classes can you run a Ducati 749? Thunderbike and LW Formula 40 are obvious choices. But can you also run in LW Superbike? I thought I saw some results that included 749s in that class but looking at the rules that isn't really clear. Also you cannot run in LW Supersport, correct? There is a note that specifically prohibits BMW HP2, Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax.
Any coming rule changes that would make a difference?
Thanks
Just thunderbike and LW F40 for 749. But you have supertwins, and middleweight+.
"Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 800cc" - For LWT GP, LWT SBK, LWT SS, and GTL.
Basically this eliminates the liquid cooled ducs.
Quote from: jfboothe on November 11, 2013, 08:07:01 AM
What classes can you run a Ducati 749? Thunderbike and LW Formula 40 are obvious choices. But can you also run in LW Superbike? I thought I saw some results that included 749s in that class but looking at the rules that isn't really clear. Also you cannot run in LW Supersport, correct? There is a note that specifically prohibits BMW HP2, Ducati/Bimota/BMW Supermono/Woods Rotax.
Any coming rule changes that would make a difference?
Thanks
For the first couple of weekends, there was a glitch in the software they started using in the FL region for timing / scoring. The first bike on your entry sheet became the default for all of your results. So some of the guys (like me) that were running Thunderbike and LW classes, it showed the 749 in the results for all of the races.
We tried to get the 748/9 allowed into LWGP and LWSB, the logic being that the TZ250 is now allowed in SB. But there was just too much resistance. Really the potential of the machine is 130HP, if someone were to build it to the limit. I would have loved to see it in LWGP and LWSB under SuperSport rules, but the SV crowd is very much against this. They do have a point, you can't just keep letting old middleweights in or pretty soon the class would become MW. However the 749 never performed to the level of the 600's even in it's prime, and you're allowed to punch the SV out to 800 so why punish the duc?
Heck I'd even love it if they allowed it in at 700CC so we could de-stroke it like Mr. Probst's GXSR
Thanks for the clarification. That was what I always thought but looking at the rule book and some results made me question that. I went through the class last year, got my license and planned to race to 2013 season but moving and house buying put a stop to that. I have a lot to do to my 749s this winter and I have to get myself in shape as well so we will see. I am in the MW region but maybe I can get down south early this year to get some time on the track.
The 570lb weight minimum is only applicable to ASRA, right?
Yea, only ASRA
749 isn't lightweight bike, should be happy they let it in the LW f40.
Either is the TZ 250....
Gino interesting thought about a 700cc Ducati water cooled LGP machine. This had not been proposed to us this year or any other year that I am aware of.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on November 20, 2013, 11:43:39 AM
Gino interesting thought about a 700cc Ducati water cooled LGP machine. This had not been proposed to us this year or any other year that I am aware of.
It's my understanding that WERA allows this in F2 and it can be done with off the shelf parts.
The 749 fits into the Thunderbike and LW F40 class nicely since these are sportsman classes anyway. The LW F40 class was a meld of several classes which also included the HW Sportsman class if I remember correctly.
GP machinery was also included although it was a little screwy where the LW GP machinery was at first HW F40. It has only been in recent years that the LW GP machine is now legal in LW F40.
The rules request was to allow the 748/749 Ducati into LW GP and GT lights at least that was the intent. That was changed to something different when it came to actually proposing the rule change to the committee (I still have the emails). One of my arguments is that the 250 GP bike was considered the intermediate bike of GP machinery and thus likened to the middleweight status of Ducati 748/749.
I understand the thought that "we don't want middleweight bikes in the lightweight class". Makes an aweful amount of sense, yet we continue to drop lightweight bikes down to the Ultralight class.
It doesn't make real sense to me where a liquid cooled V-twin motor of 800cc Suzuki is allowed in LW but a liquid cooled V-twin 748cc Ducati is not. What I do understand are the rules are "the rules".
Quote from: majicMARKer on November 27, 2013, 02:15:01 PM
It doesn't make real sense to me where a liquid cooled V-twin motor of 800cc Suzuki is allowed in LW but a liquid cooled V-twin 748cc Ducati is not. What I do understand are the rules are "the rules".
800cc Suzuki liquid cooled V-twin eh? Like to see it..... Just because the rules allow it, doesn't mean it's out there.
Even if you go even up at 750 (which does exist) you are dealing with an "on edge" motor in a commuter chasis. Your 748/749 bikes are bone stock at 750 with a world class race chasis. But hey, whatever it takes.....
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 27, 2013, 10:13:03 PM
800cc Suzuki liquid cooled V-twin eh? Like to see it..... Just because the rules allow it, doesn't mean it's out there.
Even if you go even up at 750 (which does exist) you are dealing with an "on edge" motor in a commuter chasis. Your 748/749 bikes are bone stock at 750 with a world class race chasis. But hey, whatever it takes.....
And you really believe that commuter chassis stays commuter for long? Don't overestimate the Ducati 748 and its chassis. Mine is not the Race Series version but the street able version. At 406lbs which has been lightened is no match for the garage lightened of my friend Bill Wissingers SV of 335lbs. I'm not convinced it is all about outright HP point in case a 250GP machine. HP helps on the high banks of Daytona but not necessarily everywhere else.
Each bike does have a different way of getting around the track fast.
Quote from: majicMARKer on November 27, 2013, 11:14:36 PM
And you really believe that commuter chassis stays commuter for long? Don't overestimate the Ducati 748 and its chassis. Mine is not the Race Series version but the street able version. At 406lbs which has been lightened is no match for the garage lightened of my friend Bill Wissingers SV of 335lbs. I'm not convinced it is all about outright HP point in case a 250GP machine. HP helps on the high banks of Daytona but not necessarily everywhere else.
Each bike does have a different way of getting around the track fast.
The issue is, the rules will not be made around you and your bike. The fact that you don't have the race version, yours is heavy and not developed, will not matter a whole lot when someone else does the job to the 9's.
The same issue is at play with the air cooled Ducatis in LW. Because of CCS's nutso rules, you have $40,000 motorcycles competing in LW Supersport.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 27, 2013, 11:35:11 PM
The issue is, the rules will not be made around you and your bike. The fact that you don't have the race version, yours is heavy and not developed, will not matter a whole lot when someone else does the job to the 9's.
The same issue is at play with the air cooled Ducatis in LW. Because of CCS's nutso rules, you have $40,000 motorcycles competing in Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 27, 2013, 11:35:11 PM
The issue is, the rules will not be made around you and your bike. The fact that you don't have the race version, yours is heavy and not developed, will not matter a whole lot when someone else does the job to the 9's.
The same issue is at play with the air cooled Ducatis in LW. Because of CCS's nutso rules, you have $40,000 motorcycles competing in LW Supersport.
Agreed totally with the ending sentence. I believe we speak the same language when it comes to the bottom line.
I do realize it is the nature of racing where one budget would be deemed unlimited compared to my budget. It happens now in MotoGp so I wouldn't expect any different on the club level.
What does seem ludicrous is a rationale will be used to justify one of the class structure but will not be used for all classes.
Quote from: sdiver68 on November 20, 2013, 12:30:52 PM
It's my understanding that WERA allows this in F2 and it can be done with off the shelf parts.
There was a 749 at the GNF. I think it was a 698 maybe? It was real strong but it fit in with the SV superbikes in F2. I believe they let him race in LWSB also.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on November 27, 2013, 11:35:11 PM
The issue is, the rules will not be made around you and your bike. The fact that you don't have the race version, yours is heavy and not developed, will not matter a whole lot when someone else does the job to the 9's.
The same issue is at play with the air cooled Ducatis in LW. Because of CCS's nutso rules, you have $40,000 motorcycles competing in LW Supersport.
Gino, good to see you're still fighting the good fight. I laughed when I saw a Pierobon line up in LWSS at VIR in September. Ridiculous......
Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 30, 2013, 04:48:09 PM
Gino, good to see you're still fighting the good fight. I laughed when I saw a Pierobon line up in LWSS at VIR in September. Ridiculous......
I meant Cowboy...
Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 30, 2013, 04:48:09 PM
I laughed when I saw a Pierobon line up in LWSS at VIR in September. Ridiculous......
Yeah, no kidding. I have to wonder what goes on in the cranium when you completely trash what used to be a good, inexpensive class.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on December 01, 2013, 04:57:03 PM
Yeah, no kidding. I have to wonder what goes on in the cranium when you completely trash what used to be a good, inexpensive class.
I don't see how the class has been "trashed". Pony and Villa on their SV's still finish in front of the $40k Bimotas and many of the air cooled Ducs. I agree that there are some high dollar bikes competing and it has gotten a little nuts, but what do you expect guys to do? Nobody is building LW bikes. If it weren't for the rules as they are, there probably wouldn't be a LW class at all! Alot of us would not race if MW or greater were the only option.
You say that "you don't think the rules should be built around YOUR bike" yet the SV crowd always complains about the Ducs, Bimotas, and basically anything that isn't an SV as not being fair. That being said, I do agree that what it takes to compete has gotten a little crazy. I think what Mark was referring to regarding the 749 is that it is very hard to make it light vs the SV platform, so each machine has it's advantages.
It's a race, someone is always going to build to the limit of the rules. In the latest case it's the Pierbon that we are up against. I personally don't really care that it's allowed in the GP / GT classes, I'm just frustrated that it's allowed in SuperBike where my air cooled conversion is not.
Eric, I did request the ability to downsize machines a couple years back but it was declined. It would have been a cheaper and easier build than putting the air cooled motor in the 848 frame :(
Quote from: MACOP1104 on November 30, 2013, 04:48:09 PM
Gino, good to see you're still fighting the good fight. I laughed when I saw a Pierobon line up in LWSS at VIR in September. Ridiculous......
A Pierobon is not legal in SS(or Thunderbike) and there is not one shown in the results either as valid entry or disqualified at post race inspection. Granted errors do happen in listings due to data entry error but the entry forms match the result listings.
The Pierobon has a street model sold in Europe making it eligible for Superbike.
We are reviewing water cooled desmos in LGP class as they are not addressed.
With the dropping of most of the desmo air cooled products, we are researching what the planned replacement displacements are as well as the aftermarket standard overbore/sleeve/stroke/destroke displacements are.
So what it sounds like is there should be a price cap on what can be spent on a LW Supersport machine, say $10k and anyone can claim the winning bike or any other bike for that price?
Hey now There's an idea! Claiming rules! Enforcing it would be a huge pain though.
Yes, the Pierbon supposedly has a street version. So does NCR. Pierbon also sells kit frames. So if I buy a Pierbon frame that accepts the parts I currently have on my production 848 Frame (including LW air cooled motor)...can I enter it as a Pierbon in SuperBike? How's that for a brain teaser!
It's too bad that there's no bikes being built. This is such a pain.
The new liquid cooled ducs are going to be sold as a 799 but they are 821 cc, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder. Ducati claims 110 HP which seems low for that type of engine layout. So allowing those would also let in the 748/749.
Also, I don't understand if the Pierbon is a street bike, why isn't it allowed in SuperSport?
Either it's a production machine or it isn't......
Hey Gino,
Yeah it would be a pain to enforce but maybe no more of a pain that it is now regulating what is there. Just saying!
From what I researched the Pierobon does offer a kit version that you can then title and register for the street or they will build you one already to transfer the title.
They do still lightweight bikes just not in the Ducati. There are Suzuki SV and GS650 along with Honda coming out with there twin 500, just maybe not so accessible here in the states.
That new liquid cooled Ducati would seem to fit in the rules as a middleweight, and the 899 Panigale is too big for the middleweight class, so I guess it's heavyweight for that bike.
Don't know what to say about the Pierobon not being SS legal.
Mark
Quote from: Gino230 on December 04, 2013, 10:24:16 PM
Also, I don't understand if the Pierbon is a street bike, why isn't it allowed in SuperSport?
Either it's a production machine or it isn't......
It's a production street bike in Europe. SS rules calls for production machine in North America.
The Pierobon F042 Has a street version and a race version.Not the X60R that you see racing!
Why is the BMW HP2 not allowed in LW as it is 100lbs heaver then the X60R with the same HP.And the Buell XBRR also isn't allowed Its not like anyone is going to race them and there air cooled and it should be allowed.At Daytona The top 5 or 6 bikes in LW were faster then the Fastest in AM Unlimited 1000 class!!
Your street version
http://moto.pierobonframes.com/en/moto/moto-hstreet-en.html
http://moto.pierobonframes.com/en/moto/moto-hstreet-en.html
http://moto.pierobonframes.com/en/?lang=en
Quote from: trace33chargers on December 05, 2013, 09:31:49 AM
It's a production street bike in Europe. SS rules calls for production machine in North America.
Ahhhh I stand corrected sir!
I know this thread have morphed into the lightweight class rules, and yeah it is old news that has been spoken about for a few years now. The lightweight rules haven't really changed, but it is the fact that Ducati built and air cooled motor that fits into the rules. Initially the 1200cc limitations I am sure was for the Harley. It just doesn't say push rod only.
I believe the SV and the air cooled 900 motor is a good match. Anyone can say, "but then there will be someone that will overbuild that model and be dominant".
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 17, 2013, 11:38:18 AM
I know this thread have morphed into the lightweight class rules, and yeah it is old news that has been spoken about for a few years now. The lightweight rules haven't really changed, but it is the fact that Ducati built and air cooled motor that fits into the rules. Initially the 1200cc limitations I am sure was for the Harley. It just doesn't say push rod only.
I believe the SV and the air cooled 900 motor is a good match. Anyone can say, "but then there will be someone that will overbuild that model and be dominant".
NZ/UK/AUS - Ruling for Superlight is 750cc air cooled vs SV650.
The SV is much stronger than the air cooled motor that I ride.
With all the twins there are riding around,when it comes to Super Twins class no one is racing it?????????
Why don't you just make a class called
Air cooled superbike--any bike any size engine
or
Ducati biker builders class
I like the comparisons of the different makes, the different styles and how they fit with different riders. I prefer pitting my racing package against your racing package. You may spend more but that's ok by me. If I want to go faster then I will figure out a way to do so.
Funny thing I have observed is even though my FZR 600 may be faster, I am quicker on my Ducati 800. It is amazing to me that middleweight technology is what from yesterday(1991 FZR 600) is matched by today's entry level bike.
Would I like to continue racing my middleweight bike from yesterday twenty years later? Well yes. I am fortunate that at least their is Thunderbike and the sportsman class of lightweight formula 40. I know, you may say, "go buy a new competitive bike". My response then could be something like, " maybe we should only have four classes instead of the 20+ classes we already have.
Simple, dont make the Lightweight class a dumping ground for bikes that become un competitive in the class they where intended to run in. If there is a middleweight bike that isn't competitive in its class (FZR600 for example) but is matched to something in a lighter class, allow it. The Duc is simply to much bike for the lightweight class. Maybe matching realistic horsepower to horsepower would be a better way to classify bikes rather than engine configurations.
Quote from: bruce71198 on December 21, 2013, 11:33:26 AM
Simple, dont make the Lightweight class a dumping ground for bikes that become un competitive in the class they where intended to run in. If there is a middleweight bike that isn't competitive in its class (FZR600 for example) but is matched to something in a lighter class, allow it........
I agree with the first part of what you said, but, you contradict yourself in the first two sentences.
Ya I just read it again and it didn't convey my thoughts very well. I'll edit
Quote from: bruce71198 on December 21, 2013, 11:33:26 AM
Simple, dont make the Lightweight class a dumping ground for bikes that become un competitive in the class they where intended to run in. The Duc is simply to much bike for the lightweight class. Maybe matching realistic horsepower to horsepower would be a better way to classify bikes rather than engine configurations.
The reality is the air cooled Ducati is legal for the class. The rules were not bent to allow it in lightweight. What the rules were not specific about is the original 1200cc limit was probably meant for the alley motor.
Now I agree as lightweight should not be the dumping ground for older middleweight bikes but then should also go for the Lightweight bikes(SV) should not be dumped into ultralight. Horsepower cannot be used as the downright comparison, it just doesn't compute as the same. And air cooled 800 with 87 HP is not the same as a air cooled 1000 with 90 HP, is not the same as a liquid cooled twin with 90 HP.
If you want racing equal then have spec class racing. If you want racing far by cost then have CRT rules.
You know what class never changes? Unlimited!! Bring any bike you want any size engine.Well except supersport.
Lets say you got a 1998 Yamaha R1 1000cc you'll never see them putting it in middleweight or heavyweight class.You would be lucky if you can win a 600 race with that bike even though it is strong in the straights.How about a 1996 GSXR 750 same thing.
The idea was to allow anyone with any bike a chance to race and compete. This is meant more for the modern day machine, mainly in SS to race with other modern day models. If Lightweight didnt have the 1200 limit where would the Harley race?
The GP and GT class allows more modifications and the older machinery will then have a better chance of fitting in with those modifications. Not everyone can continue to update machinery every few years.
Mark, I do have that 1999 and 2000 R1 and it is not that fast on the top end. The R1 is about as fast as a good 750 at best. Typically machinery in the '90s are not old enough to give a certain dispensation to race against smaller bikes that are just as fast. The SV has been around for a long time even though the model is still around in modern day production.
Its the way racing goes, time moves along and bikes become outdated. I don't mind taking my 749 out there against the high dollar bikes. I personally consider it a challenge to figure out how to build a better bike without all the expensive pieces. I have an R engine in my 749 off of ebay that fell off a truck. I don't even have ohlins suspension. Now i have made modifications to my bike to help me out at daytona and will build more things to help me out for Daytona next year. I figure I can make some gains in the aero department when an air cooled bimota can pull me after I slingshot around on the high side. The only place where horsepower matters is Daytona. Everywhere else, the SV's run in Thunderbike and pull off the wins and podiums plenty of times. Also, I think its been said but this is racing. There are rules in place to help you build the bike you want to race. Notice how i didn't say to keep it fair. This is why I'm going to run this season with my 749 then look for an 848 or go really stupid and try racing an MV F3. All in all, race what you want to race, if you don't spend a lot of money and beat the guys spending big bucks. smile and nod when you get your trophy. A prime example of that was the ASRA Expert Thunderbike podium. 3rd place, a $8k 749 built with cast off parts from nascar country, 2nd place Bimota 1100 (go ahead and look that up, and he only beat me by a wheel), and 1st place, Ducati 749R (carbon wheels, ohlins everything, and plenty of other goodies, probably triple my bike). I don't care, all it tells me is I need to head back to charlotte and get back to work.