hey guys
i am looking to build a competitive bike to run against air cool ducati 1100 and biomta . i was wondering does the buell 1125r run the same class, are they competitive if all other circumstances been equal.
i know a full built sv650 is very competitive but i am not looking to rebuild the motor every few racers.
thanks
With the Buell 1125R it is watercooled.You can race Heavyweight and Unlimited classes.Not in Lightweight.I raced that bike in team challenge and had to go in the GTO unlimited class.
We proved the formula for running with the Bimota/Ducati contingent at this year's ROC. Our goal was to compete with them at the costs, maintenance and reliability of a competitive middleweight.
BP Performance is happy to build more, either full bike to your spec or just the engine. Or they can build you an SV that will be competitive at most lower speed tracks. Contact me for details, lead time is about 2-3 months and can start with a 1/2 deposit.
1125's aren't LW legal.
I've been racing XB12's for a couple of years. It's a cool bike and really cheap to build compared to some other brands in the class. Hell, I bought my first XB for less than what it was gonna cost to build a mild SV motor.
I can't say that racing them has been trouble-free, but I just got most of the problems fixed with one and the other has been really reliable.
I'm not a mechanic by any stretch, but feel free to PM me with questions.
It's kind of tough right now for the LW classes because there are no bikes being built that are reasonably priced that fit within the LW rules. Ducati is ceasing production of the air cooled motors so the problem is only going to get worse.
There is a proposal in front of the rules committee to interchange frames and engines or downsize MW machines (reduce displacement) so we can have a machine that is cost effective and has parts available.
SV is probably the most cost effective but you're going to get creamed at Daytona or other very high speed tracks. They have proved more than a solid match at most tracks though.
Proposal to downsize for lightweight Supersport? Or Superbike? There is nothing in the rules against downsizing in LTWT GP rules classes. What exactly is the rules proposal?
The proposal is to allow downsizing (reducing of displacement) for SUPERBIKE classes. Also to allow frame and engine swaps for Superbike. WERA Allows this.
The problem is that there are no bikes currently in production that are legal for LW classes. For about $7K, you can have a nice 848 chassis with 1100 air cooled motor. Parts and chassis setup info is everywhere. Doesn't seem like that big a deal when the Pierbon is now allowed into Superbike....that thing weighs less than an NCR or Bimota.
There are people sitting on the sidelines because the only option is to spend a huge sum on a Pierbon or buy a 10 year old SV or 1000DS, or dive into the MW field. So instead they are sticking to track days.
Thanks Gino for the rules proposal details.
Turpin's bike is not only reportedly 295 lbs 120 HP, but also has Magnetti Morelli electronics with drive by wire and auto throttle blipping. :banghead: With an AMA Supersport rider on-board at Daytona my BPPerformance GSXR565 turned nearly identical lap times to Turpin's race times. I ran the times I needed to win AM races my first time ever at Daytona on our Supersport engine prep level prototype, but expert win challenging 1:55s or better are definitely possible with the next Superbike level version.
Ironically, I read your Ducati.ms build thread for your bike and talked to Moto Corse about a similar project. Awesome bike! However, when I didn't get the answers from Chris I wanted we dreamed up a way another way to compete at least in the GP Classes. He was talking $20k starting and difficult parts availability, we built ours for about 1/2 that and nearly unlimited parts availability.
There are bikes currently made in the class, they just aren't competitive with the bikes out there. The Ninja 650 for 1. It's kind of fun to have a builders class, there are plenty of options for guys wanting mostly off-the-shelf hardware.
So how did you do it? De-stroke it?
Quote from: Gino230 on November 10, 2013, 03:56:52 PM
So how did you do it? De-stroke it?
Top secret! :biggrin: unless you own a calculator of course. :lmao:
Being a Ducati nut the de-stroked 748 or 749 was high on my list. But you are forging new territory and will be on the hook for some research and development money.
One of the reasons I went with the 848 /1100 conversion was that MotoCorse had built several and I knew what I was getting as far as weight and Horsepower. Also the 848 is a known quantity with regard to parts availability and what it takes to make the bike handle.
With a smaller displacement 749 you are talking high RPM to get the thing to make power and that means valve timing and overlap, airbox and exhaust design, and head porting, even cam design all become unknowns. Start experimenting with that stuff and it gets expensive fast. Not to mention the reliability question of high RPM twins.
So out of curiosity (since I have one of each sitting in my garage) would an 1100DS motor out of a Hyper fit in a 749s chassis?
Yes it will. You will have to enlarge the hole in the engine cases for the swing arm pivot but that's it. There are other ways to do it by modifying the frame, but I think this way is the best as it will preserve the design of the frame to the largest extent possible.
You will have to fab up some exhaust headers. I think on that frame there is enough clearance with the rear shock so there should be no machining of the head. Not sure about the wiring harness.
The bike that Melka rode at the ROC was a 748 frame. They are all pretty similar. I came very close to doing the 749 frame because I also have a 749 that I race in Thunderbike (and starting in May LW F40) :thumb:
PS the 1100 hyper motor is the best one.....it has the LW timing gears, top ignition pickup, etc. If you want to sell it instead let me know....
I have a really trick 999R, is it a good starting point for the 1100 motor swap Gino?
Quote from: benprobst on November 18, 2013, 06:51:40 AM
I have a really trick 999R, is it a good starting point for the 1100 motor swap Gino?
Ben, remind me again. You're about 5'8" and 145 lbs aren't you?
Quote from: Burt Munro on November 18, 2013, 08:09:38 AM
Ben, remind me again. You're about 5'8" and 145 lbs aren't you?
Approximately, yes.
The Buell 1125 is allowed in Heavyweight Sulersport, Heavyweight Superbike, Supersport; Unlimited Supersport, Superbike, GP, GTO, Supertwins, and if you are old enough Formula 40.
The air cooled Ducati/Bimota/NCR/Pierobon are generally lightweight so a Buell 125 is several steps above in the race classes.
Having read thru other organizations rulebooks, I don't see any organizations that allows the Ducati air cooled motors in the water cooled frames. Is there a special provision allowing this that is not in rulebook for Superbike or Supersport classes for any organization, something I am overlooking???
Eric - 1125 is legal for HWSS, unless that is a very recent change?
Eric,
Can you please answer are any changes being seriously contemplated for 2014 Lightweight classes? If so, what are the proposals?
Thanks!
Quote from: IFMracing on November 20, 2013, 12:00:59 PM
Eric - 1125 is legal for HWSS, unless that is a very recent change?
I goofed, you are correct.
I edited my post
Since this thread took a left turn back on page 1. to confirm: 1st year racing, over 40, riding Buell 1125r with aftermarket brake masters, These are the ones I'm thinking about:
SuperTwins
F-40
Superbike Unlimited (what about Heavyweight?)
GT Series GTO
Rookies Cup GTO
Thanks
Thanks
Eric,
Yes on Heavyweight, AF MC will not exclude you from Supersport classes.
Quote from: benprobst on November 18, 2013, 06:51:40 AM
I have a really trick 999R, is it a good starting point for the 1100 motor swap Gino?
Yes It will. The only mod you will have to make is increasing the size of the hole in the cases to accommodate the larger swingarm pivot. The motor bolts right in. Wiring harness doesn't even need to be modified. The most time spent will be fabricating the exhaust headers.
The reason we used the 848 is that these bikes were more "mass produced" , Ducati made tons more of them so there's parts everywhere. The 999 was much smaller production numbers. I personally wanted to use the 999 because I also ride a 749 and I wanted it to make them handle the same....but when I started adding up the parts prices, it was alot more expensive.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on November 20, 2013, 11:39:52 AM
The Buell 1125 is allowed in Heavyweight Sulersport, Heavyweight Superbike, Supersport; Unlimited Supersport, Superbike, GP, GTO, Supertwins, and if you are old enough Formula 40.
The air cooled Ducati/Bimota/NCR/Pierobon are generally lightweight so a Buell 125 is several steps above in the race classes.
Having read thru other organizations rulebooks, I don't see any organizations that allows the Ducati air cooled motors in the water cooled frames. Is there a special provision allowing this that is not in rulebook for Superbike or Supersport classes for any organization, something I am overlooking???
Eric I can't quote you chapter and verse, however you recall the article in Roadracing World about the 848 with the air cooled 800 motor? Being raced in WERA and CMRA.
I believe the rule states frame and engine must be from the same make and model, except in the case of models with interchangeable engines.
since the motor bolts right in, I guess they allowed it. They also allow downsizing of machines to meet class displacement limits. Such as downsizing a 749 to 700cc or Mr. Probst's GSXR 500.
FWIW.
There is no provision in CCS lightweight for liquid cooled engines with Desmo heads.
So if you downsize that 749 to 700 you better also being changing to spring valves. But then again, if you are doing that you don't need to downsize! You could actually increase to 800cc.
Quote from: Gino230 on January 14, 2014, 01:07:00 PM
Eric I can't quote you chapter and verse, however you recall the article in Roadracing World about the 848 with the air cooled 800 motor? Being raced in WERA and CMRA.
I believe the rule states frame and engine must be from the same make and model, except in the case of models with interchangeable engines.
since the motor bolts right in, I guess they allowed it. They also allow downsizing of machines to meet class displacement limits. Such as downsizing a 749 to 700cc or Mr. Probst's GSXR 500.
FWIW.
Gino is this is the rule you were looking for?
In Superbike the original combination of frame and motor must be maintained except in the case of similar models with directly interchangeable engines. (Wera and CMRA have same wording)
Then this would make it illegal
Quote from: Gino230 on January 14, 2014, 01:02:22 PM
Yes It will. The only mod you will have to make is increasing the size of the hole in the cases to accommodate the larger swingarm pivot.