So this last weekend I decided to race a WERA event at nelson ledges before the last CCS round at Blackhawk. It was interesting to see how the two race organizations differed and I just wanted to share my thoughts between the two and see what you guys think as well.
First thought...CCS kicks WERA's butt when it comes to transponders. CCS transponder = $80, never have to charge. WERA transponder =$425 have to charge every 3-4 days. Point CCS.
2nd thought... Finished racing early on saturday. WERA director buys beer for everyone at the track!!! How awesome is that?? CCS should take some notes :cheers: Point WERA
3rd thought: CCS is slightly cheaper for race fees. Point CCS
4th: CCS offers more races. Point CCS
5th: CCS has better plaques but wera's first place trophy is cooler (even tho some asembly required). TIE
6th: WERA doesnt race Blackhawk 4 times in a row (nothing against BFR) Point WERA.
7th: CCS website is better. Point CCS
8th: CCS Offers more contingency. Point CCS
9th: All wera officials have matching pit shirts. CCS not so much. Point WERA
10th: Both race organizations are a ton of fun with great people! one point each!
Current Score: CCS 6 WERA 4
These are just things I noticed. Gonna have to say I like CCS more, but I think both organizations can take some improvements away from the other for better racing for everyone. What does everyone else think?
Oh yea one more thing to add... WERA tech was a major headache. I like CCS Tech much better :D
Quote from: supercarl on August 29, 2012, 04:21:07 PM
Oh yea one more thing to add... WERA tech was a major headache. I like CCS Tech much better :D
Carrying all your gear and belly pan to tech is more of a headache then what is needed in WERA ( wera does requires more saftey wire tho ). I prefer CCS over WERA
CCS = bigger grids, at least in the Mid-Atlantic
I did my first races with WERA earlier this month, only because I needed another 'event' in order to be qualified to do the IOM TT next year. I thought the paddock was quite empty during the CCS event there in June compared to past years, but WERA made took it to another level of empty. I was really surprised since the SE seems to be where WERA is the most popular.
Something else to keep in mind is that a lot varies between regions with each org. I'm pretty sure CCS's Mid-Atlantic/Atlantic/SE crews are all usually wearing CCS shirts.
My tech experience with WERA really wasn't any different. Tech at the Isle of Man is very involved, club racing tech is a breeze in comparison.
Don't count on a WERA Mid-Atlantic race director buying beer for anyone.
I also have a behind the scenes sort of perspective with each org, CCS is easier to work with.
If you post this up on the WERA board. Mongo will zilch it in 10 seconds!!!
I find that folks that complain about WERA tech and its stringent requirements are usually lazy about machine prep and have never experienced a serious mechanical failure.
Quote from: Turboblew on August 29, 2012, 09:45:44 PM
I find that folks that complain about WERA tech and its stringent requirements are usually lazy about machine prep and have never experienced a serious mechanical failure.
Yeah, agreed. Same goes for CRA tech too.
Quote from: Turboblew on August 29, 2012, 09:45:44 PM
I find that folks that complain about WERA tech and its stringent requirements are usually lazy about machine prep and have never experienced a serious mechanical failure.
I'm not lazy about bike prep at all. I'm just not a fan of taking belly pan off, carrying leathers and gloves to tech, and all the extra safety wire that I have to take off/put on each tire change. I think that CCS tech requirements are adequete eneough.
Quote from: gs750t on August 29, 2012, 09:12:32 PM
If you post this up on the WERA board. Mongo will zilch it in 10 seconds!!!
Yea thats why I posted it here :D
Also noticed bigger grids with CCS too, but as you guys mentioned I'm sure alot of stuff vary's with region. These are just my experiences in the Midwest.
Interesting; I was thinking about trying some Wera races to see what they are about. I'm mostly Florida CCS.
Henry and the Florida crew run a great show and they do everything they can to make the weekend a lot of fun.
grids are big as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WXTmt8RnRw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WXTmt8RnRw)
I would say try it out! My WERA races were alot of fun. Although I prefer CCS, WERA is still a great racing program. If you do try it out, let us know what you think of it!
Quote from: supercarl on August 29, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
6th: WERA doesnt race Blackhawk 4 times in a row (nothing against BFR) Point WERA.
I'm with you on this one. Blackhawk is great and is probably my favorite track but some variety in the Midwest series would be nice. Maybe mix in a round at MAM or Brainerd. Being from MN I'd love a round or two at Brainerd. The new short course is really fun and I'm sure there would be a lot of CRA guys there that would make for some pretty big grid numbers.
The thing with the midwest rounds is the drive time to anything not RA and BFR for the bulk of hte CCS race population - don't get me wrong I'd love to see more tracks on the schedule in the midwest...would I drive 10 hours one way to visit them however?...maybe, maybe not which is why I think we have RA and BFR (mostly BFR) for midwest CCS races...draws 2 major population zone with Chicago and Milwaukee/Madison
I draw the line at safety wiring the tires to the rims. =)
WERA/CRA have safety wire weight requirements of 2lbs. lol.
Quote from: Buell487 on August 30, 2012, 01:20:06 PM
I'm with you on this one. Blackhawk is great and is probably my favorite track but some variety in the Midwest series would be nice. Maybe mix in a round at MAM or Brainerd. Being from MN I'd love a round or two at Brainerd. The new short course is really fun and I'm sure there would be a lot of CRA guys there that would make for some pretty big grid numbers.
+1 for Brainerd. I've only ever done the long course, but it was a blast. I'm sure the short course would be decent too.
Quote from: twilkinson3 on August 30, 2012, 02:00:56 PM
The thing with the midwest rounds is the drive time to anything not RA and BFR for the bulk of hte CCS race population - don't get me wrong I'd love to see more tracks on the schedule in the midwest...would I drive 10 hours one way to visit them however?...maybe, maybe not which is why I think we have RA and BFR (mostly BFR) for midwest CCS races...draws 2 major population zone with Chicago and Milwaukee/Madison
I hear ya, but there are a few tracks less than 10 hours away that I think could be added. Like what about Grattan? Thats only a few hours from Chicago. Or putnum? I've never been to Putnum, but I bet it could work. I would say Gingerman too but I dont like Gingerman ;) lol. Theres even autobahn.
I'm just mad at myself I didnt go to heartland park this year. I wimped out becuase I thought the weather would suck and it was like a 12 hour drive for me. Turns out weather was awesome tho and now I'm kicking myself for it, especially because it put me so far behind in the points to miss it. Oh well, hopefully next year is better!
Quote from: supercarl on August 30, 2012, 02:33:53 PM
+1 for Brainerd. I've only ever done the long course, but it was a blast. I'm sure the short course would be decent too.
I hear ya, but there are a few tracks less than 10 hours away that I think could be added. Like what about Grattan? Thats only a few hours from Chicago. Or putnum? I've never been to Putnum, but I bet it could work. I would say Gingerman too but I dont like Gingerman ;) lol. Theres even autobahn.
I'm just mad at myself I didnt go to heartland park this year. I wimped out becuase I thought the weather would suck and it was like a 12 hour drive for me. Turns out weather was awesome tho and now I'm kicking myself for it, especially because it put me so far behind in the points to miss it. Oh well, hopefully next year is better!
Putnam will never happen. The owner there and ccs had it out years ago. Autobahn was tried. Again they dont want racing there. Gingerman just never had a decent turnout to warrent going there. Mid America Motorplex dunno what happened but havent been there for years. Gateway, well its gone (good riddance IMO). Heartland park, 14hr one way for a single day race? I wont do that. Hell years ago we had Barber listed for a MW event. Gratten probably would be like Gingerman, sparse turnout.
Oh I didnt know that about a lot of those tracks. However, I think Grattan would actually still have a good turnout. They repaved it recently and the track is a ton of fun with lots of elevation changes. You would get a lot of riders from the other side of the lake too.
Autobahn won't do racing since the the guy got badly injured or killed... can't remember. AMA had an event scheduled there but when the riders saw the safety issues they wouldn't ride it. (still won't) They didn't listen to the safety advisor that they asked to come help make it moto safe... next!
Gateway I thought I heard re-opened.... maybe next year????
Heartland is only 10hours from Milwaukee. No worst than going to barber....
It would be great if we could get a little more of the MI tracks mixed in....
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: supercarl on August 30, 2012, 09:07:01 AMI'm just not a fan of taking belly pan off, carrying leathers and gloves to tech, and all the extra safety wire that I have to take off/put on each tire change.
FYI We've done a lot of traveling to other CCS regions this year and the Midwest seems to be the only one that doesn't require this. Everywhere else you have to tech all of your gear (including checking build dates on helmets) and bring your belly pan (removed). We's spoiled.
I thought Gingerman got punted off the schedule because of lack of attendance. ACC won't happen because it's $$$ to rent. Grattan would be awesome but I bet it would suffer the same fate as GMan. People just don't like driving around the lake for some reason. The WERA event at BHF was pretty empty. HPT was on the MW schedule this year and that was pretty empty too. People just don't want to drive long distances, so we're stuck with RA and BHF.
Quote from: truckstop on August 31, 2012, 01:10:38 AM
FYI We've done a lot of traveling to other CCS regions this year and the Midwest seems to be the only one that doesn't require this. Everywhere else you have to tech all of your gear (including checking build dates on helmets) and bring your belly pan (removed). We's spoiled.
I thought Gingerman got punted off the schedule because of lack of attendance. ACC won't happen because it's $$$ to rent. Grattan would be awesome but I bet it would suffer the same fate as GMan. People just don't like driving around the lake for some reason. The WERA event at BHF was pretty empty. HPT was on the MW schedule this year and that was pretty empty too. People just don't want to drive long distances, so we're stuck with RA and BHF.
Wera was only sparce at BHF because they also had a big race at Road Atlanta the same weekend. Was good to finally meet Mongo in person though.
I used to race Midwest CCS stuff in the good'ol days!
BHF, RA, Grattan, Gingerman, Putnam, Heartland Park, Gateway, Brainerd.....
Now I'm a Midwest transplanted to South Carolina! I've been doing CCS & WERA races since I moved here at the end of last year. I was kind of surprised to race CCS at Roebling Road, & then WERA there with 1/2 of the people!!! WERA's forum makes the org seem huge, but the number of people on there that actually race is significantly smaller.
I've only done 2 WERA rounds, so I'll say this: more expensive, transponders more expensive, practice more expensive,
but, for my class......the grids are way bigger in WERA than CCS. (E super stock or Ultra Light Thunder Bike....Ninja 250). This last weekend at Talladega, tech opened at 8:15 & practice started @ 8:30. I thought that kinda sucked.
But, like I said......the 250 grid was huge!
The tech guy sees my CCS stickers & says, "CCS!? Well let's get those off of there!"
I say, "those are MY stickers, please leave them ALONE!"
Just saying I drive around the lake everytime to make it to Blackhawk. It doesnt stop me. I vote we give Grattan a shot. If turnout isnt great we can just nix it. But I really think it'd be welcome to alot of people after doing BFR so much this year. Only thing is their bathrooms suck. They need to work on that. BFR has it down
Im glad we're spolied in CCS midwest tech tho:D Everywhere else should follow our example. The tech guys are friendly, nice, and do their best every weekend to make sure we ride safe without giving us too much hassle. Less time in tech = more time to prepare and focus on the day's racing. I love it!
^^^ Lol about the CCS Stickers at WERA. I had simular comments made to me when I told them all I normally race CCS haha. All in good fun :)
Quote from: supercarl on August 30, 2012, 09:07:01 AM
I'm not lazy about bike prep at all. I'm just not a fan of taking belly pan off, carrying leathers and gloves to tech, and all the extra safety wire that I have to take off/put on each tire change. I think that CCS tech requirements are adequete eneough.
That must be a local thing. CCS MA requires several trips or a pit crew to carry all your crap + removed belly pan (inspected as well) while WERA MA requires a bike (belly pan left in pit) and a helmet. Easy one man job.
Yes, the safety wire is a pain, however, most of the "extras" you wire vs CCS you never remove so it is a once an done thing.
Yeah, the CCS tech thing is a PITA.
The worst part is, a guy can go through tech with a pair
of $100 leathers & $24.99 gloves, & if their not tore up (yet!),
then he can race with them! I watched them scrutinize a pair of
top notch leathers with some scuffs on them! A helmet, the date code, has it hit the ground....
I get it! As long as my leathers don't have major seam failure.....
& bringing my boots?! Really?! If you roll solo, like me.....it's a 2 trip affair.
Or, a struggling one trip affair!
(& no, I'm not putting all that shit on just to go to tech!)
I've met plenty of cool people in both orgs, and that matters most to me. Started with WERA and moved to the end of the planet (South FL) a few years ago, so wera events are pretty sparse down here. From what I remember, safety wire wasn't all that much more but you didn't have to drag all of your crap to tech with wera. The least CCS could do is let you make 2 trips. Every time I've tried to tech my gear first without bike, they've shot me down.
Transponders are way cheaper with CCS
MW grids seem big enough for both
Love the Saturday practice day here in south FL, although I haven't had the opportunity to take advantage of it lately. That's a good bang for the buck.
All the crap with ULTB has been rough, but it's a new class and is understandable.
Quote from: Jiggyfly on August 31, 2012, 02:04:54 PM
Yeah, the CCS tech thing is a PITA.
The worst part is, a guy can go through tech with a pair
of $100 leathers & $24.99 gloves, & if their not tore up (yet!),
then he can race with them! I watched them scrutinize a pair of
top notch leathers with some scuffs on them! A helmet, the date code, has it hit the ground....
I get it! As long as my leathers don't have major seam failure.....
& bringing my boots?! Really?! If you roll solo, like me.....it's a 2 trip affair.
Or, a struggling one trip affair!
(& no, I'm not putting all that shit on just to go to tech!)
Then you should try auto racing. :biggrin:
Quote from: supercarl on August 30, 2012, 09:07:01 AM
I'm not lazy about bike prep at all. I'm just not a fan of taking belly pan off, carrying leathers and gloves to tech, and all the extra safety wire that I have to take off/put on each tire change. I think that CCS tech requirements are adequete eneough.
I said most...not all. Wera will tech yer helmet and bike. Leave your belly pan and leathers in you pit . As far as adequate... I'd rather the standard be high than not. Someone that can't be bothered to torque and wire critical bolts ruins the track for everyone...especially if they dump oil.
Quote from: gs750t on August 29, 2012, 09:12:32 PM
If you post this up on the WERA board. Mongo will zilch it in 10 seconds!!!
More like 5
Quote from: Jiggyfly on August 31, 2012, 07:04:39 AM
I used to race Midwest CCS stuff in the good'ol days!
BHF, RA, Grattan, Gingerman, Putnam, Heartland Park, Gateway, Brainerd.....
This... I like blackhawk, but I'm not going there 4 or 5 times. Once or twice at one track is enough for me. That's why I'll be at Brainerd running the big course instead of racing at blackhawk in a a couple of weeks. Brainerd is W A Y more fun to race at. It's an 8-9 hour drive either way.. So go to the better track.... And I do like Ccs better than cra by far, but the track is that much better.
Well after going through tech with WERA, CRA, and CCS I just like CCS tech the most. Havent done other regions with CCS, but the MW CCS tech is great. In my opinion they do a great job making sure everything is safe with not much hassle compared to all the other tech's Ive gone through.
As for the tracks situation, I'll say it again. Love blackhawk but 4 times in a row? no mas. Hopefully we get some more variety next year. Don't really care which tracks, just want to mix it up.
I should clarify that I would *love* to see other tracks on the schedule. Grattan and Gingerman are super fun, Mid-Ohio isn't any further for us in Milwaukee than Heartland Park, etc. and it's one of my favorite tracks (top three being Mid-Ohio, VIR, and Grattan, but I haven't ridden at Barber yet.)
That said, when CCS is barely able to get enough entries to keep two days of racing at BHF, and when you look at the size of the grids this year at HPT (tiny, the paddock was a ghost town and that even included some extra riders for TC), having a couple people willing to travel more than a couple hours isn't enough to commit to taking a chance at tracks that have already been unsuccessful for them in less lean times. I've never understood why Gingerman was unsuccessful. It's a two hour or so drive from Chicago and it's a fun layout.
The bulk of CCS MW's racers are from the Chicago/Milwaukee/Madison metro areas, and/or only have to travel one or two hours to get to BHF or RA. I don't like racing at BHF every weekend either, I've had way more fun traveling 12-16 hours to do the ASRA TC and USGPRU series this year, but not everyone can do that, and I understand why CCS doesn't really want to take the chance to expand the MW region.
I'm a CCS MW guy. I've never raced with WERA but I did race with AHRMA at Road America this year and they did a couple of things I really liked.
1. AHMRA requires you to fill out and wear a medical alert lanyard to get onto the track. It makes a lot of sense because they race all over the country and probably don't know that many racers personally.
2. They check everyone's helmet date and scroutinized it's condition carefully. I know of a couple of guys who were hunting for helmets to borrow.
Several years ago, Mid-America was a double point event. Seems like that might be worth a try again, doesn't cost the organization any more, I don't think, and seemed to bring a lot of folks out.
CCS & WERA SE both check helmet dates.
This is great info to hear from a racers perspective. Thanks for sharing.
Wera was cool. I crashed on my first WERA race and since I was in first place when I crashed ... got up and was still in second place I didnt tech after crashing. Since it was my first WERA race they let me slide not wanting to put a bad taste in my mouth. haha. I didn't have the heart to tell them I didn't really give a f*ck .... they were so nice. As for tech, I learned a lot which is why I race I suppose. Safety wired the brake caliper bolts and shit.
CCS should go to Gratten. Thats only 5 hrs. Can someone tell me why they don't? did CCS have it out with them too? And for Putnam, they got to move that wall back. Thats lazy too.
As for as grid sizes go... I gridded up at Road Atalanta in a WERA race with six rows. I started on the third row and finished 4th overall by the way. I like both CCS and WERA but I like larger grids even more! I just wish we didnt do BFR so much. Speaking of BFR did you guys hear they are pushing the guard rail back? In my opinion they are not moving it far enough. They moving it to the fence. If you going to do it take part of that forest out and move the fence way the F*ck back.... Gezzz. Talk about lazy or they prefer the helicopter
bart
deleted this post Alexa.... Oh It was nice to see you today and great new place!