CCS / ASRA Racing Forum

CCS Racing Discussion => CCS / ASRA Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Jwhite316 on June 05, 2012, 02:58:48 pm

Title: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Jwhite316 on June 05, 2012, 02:58:48 pm
Anyone had a chance to see this on the tentative schedule for next BHF event. It looks like, from what I could find a vintage racing series.  I understand the ambition to bring another racing body to share costs....but by combing their events with our LW events I am concerned of how slow their class will be running.  In my opinion too slow is simply not safe. 
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Xian_13 on June 05, 2012, 03:50:27 pm
Anyone had a chance to see this on the tentative schedule for next BHF event. It looks like, from what I could find a vintage racing series.  I understand the ambition to bring another racing body to share costs....but by combing their events with our LW events I am concerned of how slow their class will be running.  In my opinion too slow is simply not safe. 

So, stick them with EX MW/HW/UnL?

You have a preconceived idea how fast these guys will be.
If you do not run them with LW, then they would need their own group.
Thus leaving everyone with less track time.

Suck it up and cherish more money coming to the track, instead of losing our racing league.

-X
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: bruce71198 on June 06, 2012, 10:34:43 am
Vintage doesnt mean slow! And if they are slow put them behind ULWTB. More attendance is good for the sport!!!
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: twilkinson3 on June 06, 2012, 11:11:24 am
Frankly as long as they are at least held to the CCS tech requirements or other considerations for safety - I have no issue at all...just some more folks to share the track with and plan passes on if they are that much slower

Few of you might remember the 12(?) year old girly on the 125 the other year (was it last year?)  I lapped her twice in a sprint her first time out...she held a good line and no issues arose..long as these guys can do roughly the same I see no real issue save the potential for differing rules on bike prep causing a safety concern (I wouldn't be fond of no belly pan for instance...)

In the end the more the merrier
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: truckstop on June 06, 2012, 04:23:49 pm
I think the origins of this were more about some of the Vintage guys in the Mil/Chi area (of which there are many, the Vin culture is strong here - ChiVinMoto isn't a race series, it's a loosely organized non-club) wanting more opportunities to race, other than the one AHRMA event at Road America.

They're good peeps, watching old bikes race is a hoot, and I think they're all actually pretty stoked about this event.

From seeing some of these guys ride, the skill range is pretty big, some have been racing for a while and are pretty quick, and there will be others who are probably not so much. That all said, how many bikes have been on the grid for LW SS/SB at any given event? There were only 5 bikes total for LWSS at BHF.

Terry, Kenzie is more like 15, and she's back this year on a Ninja 250. :)
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: twilkinson3 on June 06, 2012, 04:51:18 pm
LWSS I hope to increase the number by 1 at least lol, ya the GP and superbike ones are the ones I could see some concerns with if you bring say a Honda 350 4 stroke to play with while ed and crew are turnign 15s hehe - might be messy but hey that's racing some time - unpredicitible put me in the weeds once a couple years back..that does make me a bit leery but hey I'll take ANY racing after the way this year has been going - long as the saftey basics are covered

On Kenzie - I'm horrible with names/ages/faces, I just remember having exactly zero issue with the rate of speed/line choice/predicting where she was going etc etc
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Jwhite316 on July 02, 2012, 10:55:08 am
Well my intuitions were right.  These guys were dangerously slow, and they did not hold their line very well.  I truly hope this never happens again, as it did pose a safety threat IMO. 
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 02, 2012, 01:15:00 pm
I had an entirely different experience in LWSS, predictable lines, easy passes...closing speeds did approach scarey at times but if you learn to expect it....
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Jwhite316 on July 02, 2012, 01:42:54 pm
I had an entirely different experience in LWSS, predictable lines, easy passes...closing speeds did approach scarey at times but if you learn to expect it....

IMO their lines were all over the place.  Bottom line is that there were several situations that were simply unsafe.  I experienced several during morning practice, and I spoke to Kevin V.E. who actually lost a race to Ed because of those guys not riding predictably.  The closing speed was just flatout dangerous.  I hope that we don't have this situation again.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: tevbax on July 02, 2012, 02:08:23 pm
IMO their lines were all over the place.  Bottom line is that there were several situations that were simply unsafe.  I experienced several during morning practice, and I spoke to Kevin V.E. who actually lost a race to Ed because of those guys not riding predictably.  The closing speed was just flatout dangerous.  I hope that we don't have this situation again.


Heres his message on WSB:


Did LWGP instead of rookies cup. Didnt want to have near back to backs in the heat. 6th out of 6.[/size] Had a "moment" towards the end when the leaders came by me (again). Guy went to the inside of me, I ende up playing on the potholes and went way wide and another guy was going around the outside and ended up pushing him damn near off the rumbles. Tried to find him afterward to apologise. Just couldnt get it to turn more.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: bruce71198 on July 02, 2012, 07:19:11 pm
Ya they were slow.... holy crap!  We tried it and now know what needs adjusting. We just need to find a place for them. I thought some of the old bikes are kind of cool? Did I just type that ? Any way back in the early 90's AHRMA used to race at the CCS events on saturdays, brings back some good memories.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Xian_13 on July 02, 2012, 08:04:38 pm
IMO their lines were all over the place.  Bottom line is that there were several situations that were simply unsafe.  I experienced several during morning practice, and I spoke to Kevin V.E. who actually lost a race to Ed because of those guys not riding predictably.  The closing speed was just flatout dangerous.  I hope that we don't have this situation again.

Maybe the classes need to be restructured.
Maybe, they can't run the vintage bikes with classes they thought.

From you, I hear you talk about safety and closing speeds.
Instead of complaining about the problem you have, help find a solution.

Next BHF weekend, I will have my TZ out in practice, with you.
If you would like to discuss closing speeds with me, I will be happy to have an adult discussion with you.
Look for Expert #140.

As far as the LWGP, that incident was two Ninja 250s going around a SV650

I for one, want the sport to grow.
I also enjoy seeing the vintage bikes race.
Not to mention the envy I have, for not owning one at this moment.

-X

P.s. I was working as a corner marshal on Sunday, and I never saw/heard of any one of the vintage guys crashing.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: alocker on July 02, 2012, 09:19:55 pm
I thought seeing the Vintage bikes were cool, but I also did not run with them so I cannot comment on lines or closing speeds.

Someone should look closely at the lap times and maybe put all the vintage classes together alone.  It's good for CCS to have them out there if they can figure out how we can all get along. 
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 03, 2012, 01:55:10 am

Heres his message on WSB:


Did LWGP instead of rookies cup. Didnt want to have near back to backs in the heat. 6th out of 6. Had a "moment" towards the end when the leaders came by me (again). Guy went to the inside of me, I ende up playing on the potholes and went way wide and another guy was going around the outside and ended up pushing him damn near off the rumbles. Tried to find him afterward to apologise. Just couldnt get it to turn more.


Just a FYI, the only race I was in that Kevin V.E. was in was the LWGP and he won. Also my post you quoted from WSB.  :thumb:  And mine is a SV.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: tevbax on July 03, 2012, 08:57:46 am

Heres his message on WSB:


Did LWGP instead of rookies cup. Didnt want to have near back to backs in the heat. 6th out of 6. Had a "moment" towards the end when the leaders came by me (again). Guy went to the inside of me, I ende up playing on the potholes and went way wide and another guy was going around the outside and ended up pushing him damn near off the rumbles. Tried to find him afterward to apologise. Just couldnt get it to turn more.



By the way... this should be deleted. I jumped the gun and posted incorrect information.



Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Jwhite316 on July 03, 2012, 03:19:06 pm
Maybe the classes need to be restructured.
Maybe, they can't run the vintage bikes with classes they thought.

From you, I hear you talk about safety and closing speeds.
Instead of complaining about the problem you have, help find a solution.

Next BHF weekend, I will have my TZ out in practice, with you.
If you would like to discuss closing speeds with me, I will be happy to have an adult discussion with you.
Look for Expert #140.

As far as the LWGP, that incident was two Ninja 250s going around a SV650

I for one, want the sport to grow.
I also enjoy seeing the vintage bikes race.
Not to mention the envy I have, for not owning one at this moment.

-X

P.s. I was working as a corner marshal on Sunday, and I never saw/heard of any one of the vintage guys crashing.


My solution would be to have them run on the track on their own.  True, none of them crashed but that was not my concern.  The closing speed was just too uncomfortable.  I think if you took a poll from those who shared the track with them, they'd agree.  It was also hard to find clear track in morning practice.  Also based on how large the grids were this past weekend, I would say using that cost-cutting method is no longer needed.  Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: backMARKr on July 03, 2012, 10:33:00 pm
  Also based on how large the grids were this past weekend, I would say using that cost-cutting method is no longer needed.  Just my thoughts.

No dog in this fight as I was not there, but if the results are reflective of the grid sizes, in LW they were quite small. ~10 looked like the largest AM grid. (yes I saw that the MW grid #s were larger but still by no means big).

I would disagree that searching for opportunities to make a race weekend profitable are no longer required.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: motomaniac on July 04, 2012, 10:06:18 am
I thought the vintage bikes did good and were fun to watch.  You guys crack me up..whining about closing speeds.  Run a combined am/ex 600 race and start lapping lappers in 2 laps with the am. guys riding nowhere near predictable.   The vintage bikes are a nice addition to the schedule.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 04, 2012, 07:38:32 pm
I thought the vintage bikes did good and were fun to watch.  You guys crack me up..whining about closing speeds.  Run a combined am/ex 600 race and start lapping lappers in 2 laps with the am. guys riding nowhere near predictable.   The vintage bikes are a nice addition to the schedule.

Or try the rookie cup race where theres bikes from Ninja250's & 125's to liter bikes in one race.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: HerbigCBR on July 04, 2012, 08:22:12 pm
Ill gladly race with the vintage guys if it mean we can go back to a 2 day format. Then we can split up some of the experts and amateurs as well.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 04, 2012, 09:23:53 pm
If we keep the grids going up thats the plan Jared.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Jwhite316 on July 05, 2012, 09:40:11 am
No dog in this fight as I was not there, but if the results are reflective of the grid sizes, in LW they were quite small. ~10 looked like the largest AM grid. (yes I saw that the MW grid #s were larger but still by no means big).

I would disagree that searching for opportunities to make a race weekend profitable are no longer required.

10 bikes in LW Am is quite large I would say.  There  were several occasions last year that LW Am had 1 or 2 bikes.  Even in the hayday, 10 was a good size grid.  MW is always going to be larger than LW.  If you want to save costs and all that, be my guest but don't do it at the expense of the other riders safety and results.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAzWeZ-oZPM&feature=channel&list=UL watch at about 10 min in, Kevin comes up on two vintage bikes at the end of the race and ends up getting passed after having a 1.5 sec. gap. 
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Burt Munro on July 05, 2012, 10:37:29 am
10 bikes in LW Am is quite large I would say.  There  were several occasions last year that LW Am had 1 or 2 bikes.  Even in the hayday, 10 was a good size grid.  MW is always going to be larger than LW.  If you want to save costs and all that, be my guest but don't do it at the expense of the other riders safety and results.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAzWeZ-oZPM&feature=channel&list=UL watch at about 10 min in, Kevin comes up on two vintage bikes at the end of the race and ends up getting passed after having a 1.5 sec. gap. 
So you're saying that having the vintage bikes on the track with the LW's caused him to get passed by Ed Key on the last lap?

Sorry, but I don't recognize who you are or how long you've been around, but that's been a pretty standard tactic for Ed for over 30 years!  If you started a list of people that he's done that to you'd need a decent sized notebook.

Ed frequently only rides as fast as he has to to conserve energy and his bike. Especially on a day when track conditions weren't the best.

I think you need to attribute that last lap pass to over 100 National Championships worth of experience and not some slower bikes on the track.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Jwhite316 on July 05, 2012, 10:55:55 am
So you're saying that having the vintage bikes on the track with the LW's caused him to get passed by Ed Key on the last lap?

Sorry, but I don't recognize who you are or how long you've been around, but that's been a pretty standard tactic for Ed for over 30 years!  If you started a list of people that he's done that to you'd need a decent sized notebook.

Ed frequently only rides as fast as he has to to conserve energy and his bike. Especially on a day when track conditions weren't the best.

I think you need to attribute that last lap pass to over 100 National Championships worth of experience and not some slower bikes on the track.


I agree, Im not questioning Ed's talent.  They way mentally wears down the guys he's racing with is downright amazing.  His tatics are valentino-eske.  But, Kevin had a gap that IMO Ed could not make up.  He was on his slower bike and Kevin was running with his hair on fire.  The vintage bikes are just too slow IMO.  I think if they combined all of the other vintage classes to run at the same time on their own. 
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: truckstop on July 05, 2012, 11:30:08 am
I've been lapped pretty often in LW races by Ed and people chasing him over the years, and I'm sure I've cost someone a position somewhere at some point. I asked Ed early on if I was "in the way" and he said "don't worry about it, you're fine."

In the 125GP race on Sunday, I lost a position at the start/finish line, because I couldn't get around someone who was having bike issues. I'd built up a pretty good gap but after getting caught up, and her being on a faster bike, she got me at the line. Am I mad about it? No!

IMHO, that's racing. There's always a chance that lappers will figure into the equation regardless of what kind of bike they're on or what class you're in. I'm sorry for Kevin because he was riding AWESOME this weekend, but what would be said if it was just a slow person on an SV that got in his way? Don't let slow people race?

Now, I DO think some rearranging should be done, but I do hope that there's some way to keep the vintage guys on the schedule.
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 05, 2012, 12:31:27 pm
As an active participant in at least one race that include the vintage bikes - I have no problem with them in the schedule, again - no real issue...expect them to be slower dow nthe straights...you are going to catch them and pass them...potentially in odd places - I call this "racecraft" and it requires some planning - frankly the more folks we have out there and the more fun we are all having the better
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: Fast Eddy on July 05, 2012, 02:40:55 pm
As a wise man once said, "traffic givith & traffic takith away"

There will always be some slower traffic (I hope we have enough). It is part of the game.

I was talking to one of the heads of the vintage group and he had asked CCS to put them all together. He says they ride together enough & they are all used to the speed difference of each other. But CCS thought it to much for the 160 class to be on track with an old GS1000.

Kevin got passed cause he was late on the throttle on the drive out of 7. It was not the fault of the traffic. (oh and Ed is very talented too) 
Title: Re: ChiVinMoto....BHF...6-30
Post by: backMARKr on July 05, 2012, 08:18:20 pm
10 bikes in LW Am is quite large I would say.  There  were several occasions last year that LW Am had 1 or 2 bikes.  Even in the hayday, 10 was a good size grid.  MW is always going to be larger than LW.  If you want to save costs and all that, be my guest but don't do it at the expense of the other riders safety and results.   

While I agree 10 >1 or 2, 10 is still not a large grid (however, that is a matter of opinion). I also appreciate your zeal for the protection of rider's safety (and their finishing position), however, one has to acknowledge that this is a business and it is still necessary to make a profit for the race organization to provide the opportunity to race. Without talking to Kevin, I would assume this was the motivation for including the Vintage group in the weekend, to increase potential revenue.

It's really isn't about saving money, its about making money...like it or not that's it in a nutshell.