Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: cshaffer66 on July 25, 2011, 11:16:06 AM

Title: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: cshaffer66 on July 25, 2011, 11:16:06 AM
2 things, first, anyone have an update on the riders involved?
Second, I'm sure this has been covered before, but what will it take to move that barrier back?

Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 25, 2011, 11:33:37 AM
No idea on how they are doing, but hope that everyone who got hurt comes out fine. I HATE seeing helicopters at the track. Hell I hate bringing bikes back to the pits without the riders with them.


As for turn 2. A lot of us have been saying that for YEARS. They moved the T2 corner station back so you can see T3 from T1 and riders can see better around it. I would like to see T2 barrier moved at least 50' back and where it comes back out of the woods angled so that the airfence would be backed like it is in T4 and not just sitting freely on the grass like they have it now. Maybe also a gravel trap that could slow riders down before they would hit anything.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 25, 2011, 12:05:47 PM
Left after the 125gp race - what happened?
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 25, 2011, 12:09:10 PM
We had a bad crash in T2 that needed a medivac.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 25, 2011, 12:10:50 PM
Which race?  I hope the folk(s) involved are ok, saw the airfence go flying in hte air earlier in the day as well, GTlights race.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Supergirl on July 25, 2011, 12:14:12 PM
From what i heard, Rider 1 had surgery on both knees, has a broken ankle and a broken wrist. Rider 1 is the guy who got air lifted. sooo, i consider this MUCH better news, than what was initially thought and rumored.

The other guy, Rider 2, has 3 broken ribs and a bruised lung. He was kept in the hospital overnight as well, for observation.

Wishing them both a speedy recovery, as well as all other injured racers this weekend. Wayy too many injuries.


On the same note, why is T2 corner working station never manned??

edited by moderator to remove name upon request.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: red900 on July 25, 2011, 12:15:20 PM
That corner changed my life forever in 2008.  I hope some improvements are made...
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: cshaffer66 on July 25, 2011, 12:42:35 PM
Good to hear the injuries are not life threatening.  I came through there and saw the oil lines and two bikes going straight into the wall I knew we would need a flight for life. 

I am one of the fortunate people who have crashed there and been able to walk away from it.  The only solution is to move that armco and push it way back. I love Blackhawk but that wall is the most dangerous one on any track I have been on.  How many times does a helicopter need to come before something is changed? 

I'm assuming the reason is cost.  Are there any other reasons?  The amount of money that wall was has caused in medical bills has to be staggering

Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: agron4 on July 25, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
The problem may be Blackhawk's status as a wetland and the removal of trees to push the corner back.  I remember a conversation with a Blackhawk employee a few years back saying this was an issue.  Things may have changed since than.


Glad everyone is relatively ok.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: cshaffer66 on July 25, 2011, 01:34:29 PM
I've heard things like that before, but they were able to remove all the trees on the outside(left side) of 2 and they cleaned up 1 a few years ago.  I would think they could get around that issue.  I was going to ask Tom but he was busy getting the track back in order
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: SV88 on July 25, 2011, 03:54:58 PM
Sheesh I'm really glad the injuries were not life threatening although at the time I'm sure the ambulance staff erred on the side of caution.   
Does anyone know who's bike was leaking oil & how it got onto the track?  That is really the root cause of the whole incident.  Now T2 is undoubtably the worst place to crash except maybe for the short straight up to the bus stop.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Xian_13 on July 25, 2011, 04:29:07 PM
Maybe it is time to put a bus-stop in T2 to slow the bikes down.
Seems like moving the armco is not and option.
With ever-faster machines, being slowed down is way better then injury.

-X
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 25, 2011, 04:49:16 PM
There is that option, I know on the sv turn 2 is a wot turn at a fairly good speed (4th or 5th gear I forget)
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: cshaffer66 on July 25, 2011, 07:13:00 PM
I would be down for a Road America chicane right there, or something to change the layout, but I don't know if there is room.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Sobottka on July 25, 2011, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on July 25, 2011, 04:49:16 PM
There is that option, I know on the sv turn 2 is a wot turn at a fairly good speed (4th or 5th gear I forget)
...on a 600 too, if you do it right. my gps has me at 108 (on my r6) in the end of that turn and about 103 at the apex
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Germany on July 25, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
even the goofball duckling made it into the tripple digits at that spot, which amazed and scared me at the same time...
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: motox64 on July 25, 2011, 10:58:48 PM
Quote from: SV88 on July 25, 2011, 03:54:58 PM
Sheesh I'm really glad the injuries were not life threatening although at the time I'm sure the ambulance staff erred on the side of caution.   
Does anyone know who's bike was leaking oil & how it got onto the track?  That is really the root cause of the whole incident.  Now T2 is undoubtably the worst place to crash except maybe for the short straight up to the bus stop.
It was Travis' bike. Must have put a hole in the oil pan or something during the race. Didnt see any holes in the engine case when I took a look and it sounded just fine coming around turn one. Its a very well taken care of bike but some things just happen. as far as I could see, he was only debris-flagged once (at turn one) before the crash.

either way, Im glad all riders involved are okay.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 26, 2011, 12:39:11 AM
Quote from: motox64 on July 25, 2011, 10:58:48 PM
It was Travis' bike. Must have put a hole in the oil pan or something during the race. Didnt see any holes in the engine case when I took a look and it sounded just fine coming around turn one. Its a very well taken care of bike but some things just happen. as far as I could see, he was only debris-flagged once (at turn one) before the crash.

either way, Im glad all riders involved are okay.

Actually they flagged him at T7 first, then the tower and then T1. Unfortunately sometimes racers dont see it even when its literally put in their face. They noticed his bike starting to smoke a bit around T5 or T6. Cant remember which. It blew going down the front straight.

Its glad to hear everyone involved will be OK.

Supergirl, the reason T2 is unmanned is we just dont have enough workers. If anyone has a friend or family member who you think would like to help out, please send them our way.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: IFMracing on July 26, 2011, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: Germany on July 25, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
even the goofball duckling made it into the tripple digits at that spot, which amazed and scared me at the same time...

Really, I had no idea it was that fast.....wow.   (the corner, not your bike)
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: kawtipping on July 26, 2011, 11:54:06 AM
I have put a bike (and myself) into the tire wall (year before the airfence ::) ).  It sucks to crash there!  Some sort of Chicane would be nice, but then again it would probably cost less to just fix the runoff area.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Sobottka on July 26, 2011, 01:05:45 PM
Quote from: Sobottka on July 25, 2011, 07:16:41 PM
...on a 600 too, if you do it right. my gps has me at 108 (on my r6) in the end of that turn and about 103 at the apex
just checked a different lap and it had me at 111mph from the apex to the brake zone. i wonder what the fast guys are doing there! 
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: sidepipe79 on July 26, 2011, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on July 25, 2011, 12:10:50 PM
Which race?  I hope the folk(s) involved are ok, saw the airfence go flying in the air earlier in the day as well, GTlights race.
Well I was the guy that met the fence in the GTL race. I hit hard and ended up with 3 broken ribs.

Here is my bike. I thankfully look better.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/sidepipe79/zachspictures005.jpg)
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: spyderchick on July 26, 2011, 03:24:10 PM
Glad to hear you're mostly okay.

BTW, the bike will buff out.

Heal up quick! Broken ribs blow chunks.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: George_Linhart on July 26, 2011, 04:08:07 PM
Wow - that is one heck of a bad place to go down...  It is one of the reasons that I rarely make the trip to race at BHF, there are a couple of places at that track that just make me very uncomfortable when I try to put on the race face.

George
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Fast Eddy on July 26, 2011, 05:45:06 PM
Yep fast turn to be sure.

Hope everyone makes a good recovery.

I fell in the heat before this and am pretty sore but will be fine.

Praying for fast recoveries for all. There was a lot of people between sat/sun. Heal fast everyone.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 27, 2011, 01:23:45 AM
Quote from: sidepipe79 on July 26, 2011, 02:00:55 PM
Well I was the guy that met the fence in the GTL race. I hit hard and ended up with 3 broken ribs.


That was a fun one to pick up. Looked fine on it side and when we went to pick it up, it did its own impersonation of an OCC chopper. A new frame and you'll be ready to go once your ribs heal.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: SV88 on July 27, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
Someone needs to post up Garner's 600R.  Broken forks @ the base.  Never seen an sv with a broken frame although I've certainly tried.
Well survived the BHF weekend to take a bad spill at Okemo Hills MCCCT in Mi last night.  High sided on a sandy corner that came out of nowhere.  Slammed to the ground with my left hip and shoulder taking the beating.  Lucky to have landed on sand next to rocks, roots and wood.  Feeling my 49 yrs today.  crf250r just shrugged it off!
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: twilkinson3 on August 01, 2011, 11:40:05 AM
Hey sidepipe - if/when you get around to putting the toy back together I might be able to help you out on the frame - pretty sure I still have one sitting in my garage....
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Andi on August 01, 2011, 11:52:35 AM
Quote from: SV88 on July 27, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
Someone needs to post up Garner's 600R.  Broken forks @ the base.  Never seen an sv with a broken frame although I've certainly tried.
Well survived the BHF weekend to take a bad spill at Okemo Hills MCCCT in Mi last night.  High sided on a sandy corner that came out of nowhere.  Slammed to the ground with my left hip and shoulder taking the beating.  Lucky to have landed on sand next to rocks, roots and wood.  Feeling my 49 yrs today.  crf250r just shrugged it off!

Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: gkotlin on August 01, 2011, 03:39:53 PM
Can we not ruin the track by talking about putting in a chicane.  Thats the worse part of Autobahn South.  Two stupid chicanes.

Design a couple corners that you have to slow down for.  Maybe something more then 90 degrees that actually has the option for different lines.   Something to actually improve the track, not just a bandaid chicane to slow people down.  We have more imagination then just tossing in another bus stop.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Mike829 on August 01, 2011, 11:43:16 PM
Greg, that is an excellent point!  we already have a bus stop, so either move the armco back and put a gravel trap in or put more of an "S" in so the track can keep some 'flow'.  i hope they just move it back, i kinda like the fast turn 2, you can always go a little faster there, makes racing exciting with passing there too.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: F2RGK on August 02, 2011, 09:47:57 PM
Turn two needs that pothole fixed on that left corner,...seen alot guyz hit that...ouch.  Private property is private property, don't know about wetland rules? 
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: HAWK on August 02, 2011, 10:26:08 PM
Wetland rules trump ALL.

I personally like turn 2 as it is, is it spooky? Yes. Is it fast? Yes. Is it dangerous? What corner at Blackhawk, or any race track for that matter, isn't? I know some guys have had some pretty horrendous crashes there but I've seen 2 ambulances roll for one crash at turn 1, and turn 7. I've seen a bike clear the entire tire wall at turn 4. And I've only been at this a couple years. There is nothing safe about riding a motorcycle at it's limit to try and beat the next guy or gal doing the same thing to the finish line. Racing is all about minimizing the risk to a level that you can tolerate. That might mean backing it down a notch in 2.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on August 03, 2011, 12:28:51 AM
Hell Paul, I seen 2 helicopters for one crash in T1 there.
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Medicated on August 04, 2011, 03:28:13 PM
I am a newbie and was there when the accident happened. I have an idea that is cost effective, will keep the track layout the way it is and not require any damage to the property. How about removing the guard rail, bury the open ends in the dirt, install a 10 foot high mesh catch fence like they use for downhill ski racing and have the airfence in front of it secured to the fence or a cable thru the back so they stay in place in case multiple bikes are involved. This would greatly absorb the impact and keep the rider from playing Tarzan in the woods if they have a get off in 2. Just an idea
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Medicated on August 04, 2011, 04:05:35 PM
 :banghead:  Sry my bad......this would work awesome for the bikes but I forgot they also run cars at the track too.  :whine:
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: Super Dave on August 04, 2011, 10:01:58 PM
Everyone would like to move the barrier back.  And it is the most logical solution. 

I've always looked at the corner much like I looked at turn Alpha at Topeka:  there is a serious risk, and I have adjusted my line for both to give me an opportunity to remain pretty much uninjured in both corners following crashing.  That should be part of every racer's first look at a track...what's gonna kill me. 

A lot has been done to the track regardless of any wetland designation.  What I believe the issue is that if the barrier is moved, some car organizations may require that the barrier be constructed differently...and that would be substantially more expensive.  Huge costs!  Additionally, that different style might have to be carried around the track at length with more posts and more height in barriers.  These are subjective issues as no US racing organization publishes any kind of safety standard as it opens the tracks and the organizations up to huge issues with legal teams.  Racing IS dangerous, yeah...and it sucks that it does, but the alternative is to have no tracks. 

I guess the "good" part is that people crash in other locations and have more serious injuries.  T2 crashes are scary, period...even the thought is terrifying. 
Title: Re: Turn 2 at Blackhawk
Post by: red900 on August 12, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Damn the logic, just do what i ask.   

Thank you