I know this can be a sensitive subject for some people, especially when it was brought up last winter, so I figured I'd get in my $.02 when the race season is still fresh on our minds.
Anyway... it seems as if the only argument against a mylaps system tends to be the $$ investment involved and the potential racers it would discourage from gridding up, which is an important one... yet it seems like there are SO many advantages. First of all, lets take a look at what we've got right now - and by no means am I suggesting that I don't appreciate the efforts that are currently being made to get our laptimes online. However, it's very clear to me there's a problem with the CCS data consistently translating onto the myracingbio site. It also seems like there's not much of an effort to fix it, and even if there was, it's simply not working. This might not seem like a huge deal, but this is information that can be very useful in lots of ways. For example, I jumped onto the site to see what would be an ideal laptime to target before heading to HPT this year by researching riders I'm familiar with, but the laptimes listed were all 7:00+ and obviously way too screwy to give me any good info. It's also fun to go back and take a look at your buddy's old laptimes - or even your own.
We know that every racer on the grid works their asses off for every result they earn. It doesn't matter if it's for an expert win or a finish towards the back of the AM pack. We also know that getting help or sponsorship is just as hard as anything else in this sport. Having a reliable timing system and an organized resource to display our results would make it so much easier to share them with potential sponsors... With the current system, there are way too many bugs with each rider's profile and any inconsistent spelling or formatting of your name doesn't even group those results together. Hell, a couple of my best finishes/laps at Heartland were recorded by CCS but they're not even showing up on myracingbio. It's like I wasn't even there on Sat - a couple of emails with absolutely no response and I've given up. I've had problems like this in the past as well. Again, it's not the end of the world, but it's something that's clearly avoidable with other timing systems.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the mylaps website, I suggest you go and take a look at what they have to offer. Results are posted immediately and there's never any problems with formatting considering that's exactly what the system is designed to do. Everything is connected to your personal transponder, so there's no mix ups or inconsistencies with your results or profile. I'm sure it's also has it's benefits on CCS's end and I'm pretty sure it's very simple for them to upload the data online themselves.
Again, I appreciate myracingbio's effort, but there are simply much better options out there that could benefit everyone. The transponders are even compatible with WERA and AMA races. I wish I could have made my argument a little better, but when you're typing with one hand, it's a little tough to think that much faster than you're typing.
So, whaddya guys think?
It also seemed like the rookies cup was pretty popular at Blackhawk. Maybe CCS could provide transponders for just that race, or bump the entry fees a little to account for the 1-race rental, so it doesn't discourage new racers from gridding up.
Also add on to the fact that some CCS racers may already have a transponder. I know I for one do.
I think they do a pretty good job in the Mid-Atlantic/Atlantic Region. I don't mind waiting to see my results and the times are posted at the track after the race. Alot of guys concerned with their times have their own data loggers and such but I for one am happy it's not mandatory. It's less of a burden for the racer on a budget. I'm happy to have a transponder lended to me by CCS and happy to give it back after the race weekend.
when compared to what the average racer spends a year racing, i think this argument is stupid. besides they will have them available for rent if you cant (or dont want to) buy one.
Quote from: ronaldo9 on June 02, 2011, 04:23:30 PM
I think they do a pretty good job in the Mid-Atlantic/Atlantic Region. I don't mind waiting to see my results and the times are posted at the track after the race. Alot of guys concerned with their times have their own data loggers and such but I for one am happy it's not mandatory. It's less of a burden for the racer on a budget. I'm happy to have a transponder lended to me by CCS and happy to give it back after the race weekend.
seeing my own lap times immediately after an event is the last reason i'd want to switch to the mylaps system, i have my own gps lap timer for that. i like to see how my buddies or my competition did. i'm also interested in having an accurate history with my old finishes/times for myself and a reliable resource to see the history of others at different tracks.
Quote from: Sobottka on June 02, 2011, 04:43:09 PM
when compared to what the average racer spends a year racing, i think this argument is stupid. besides they will have them available for rent if you cant (or dont want to) buy one.
agreed. assuming it'll last 10 years, we're talking 30 bucks a year.
either way, we're just delaying the inevitable.
" a couple of emails with absolutely no response and I've given up. " Welcome to the "Emails to CCS with NO response club"!!!!!! Being trying to get them to correct my name and send my license to me so I can know my "official" race number since April. I still have no clue and they have yet it send my replacement.
i usually call the CCS office for info when i need, it's way more efficient and they're always happy to help. i was talking about trying to contact myracingbio to see if he got my results... but this is going in a different direction and wasn't the intent of this thread. i just feel like the advantages of a new system get overlooked once people learn there's a personal financial investment involved.
for 400$ I'll pass on being able to search CCS historical times.
But a central place to upload GPS info would be cool
Quote from: Motokonpo on June 02, 2011, 07:17:42 PM
" a couple of emails with absolutely no response and I've given up. " Welcome to the "Emails to CCS with NO response club"!!!!!! Being trying to get them to correct my name and send my license to me so I can know my "official" race number since April. I still have no clue and they have yet it send my replacement.
Call Ginger at the office.
This CCS Forum site and Myracingbio are not owned by CCS/ASRA These sites are up because some good people volunteered their time.
On to the topic. In my opinion if the organization decides their system involves buying a transponder then there isn't much choice for me but to comply or not race. Me personally, I don't need to know anyone else's times. If I do I would get out there with my timer and find out for myself. On a more personal note I would rather if my times were not known only because I don't like having a target on my back.
If we were gridding by qualifying then I would see the transponder as necessary. What I do like is using my GoPro and then timing those laps at viewing noting any difference for a particular lap that I was faster or slower.
If the decision is to go with mylaps then I may get one. I don't currently have one nor do I intend to go racing with another organization that uses the mylaps.
Mark
I had a long paragraph typed out about how hard it is to talk track day guys into racing. They see racing as more $ with less track time, PLUS the additional expenses of tires, bodywork, and race school. Add $400 to that and the few people that do cross over will be much fewer!
But here's the real "tale of the tape."
CCS AM Middleweight Supersport from Summit Point 5/28/2010 - 38 entries
WERA Novice C Superstock from Summit Point 6/13/2010 - 14 entries
CCS EX Middleweight Supersport from Summit Point 5/28/2010 - 28 entries
WERA Expert C Superstock from Summit Point 6/13/2010 - 12 entries
And YES, it was sunny both weekends! I checked the lap times.
Clearly there is a reason TWICE as many people race CCS; it could be the "double bubble" windscreen controversy, it could be the class structure, it could be the awesome people in the paddock and the officials, but I'd put my money on the fact that WERA requires an extra $400 transponder.
Why get a system that requires a $400 investment for the racer? Why not get an RFID system that uses a tiny sticker that only cost $.30/ea to the racer? The RFID systems are portable so yo only need to buy one or two or whatever and just bring them from track to track. And if a guy crashes it won't cost him another $400 to replace the transponder, another $.30 sticker and you're good to go!
And there were 26 new racers in the Learning Curves Race School @ Blackhawk Farms in May!
Kevin talked about the RFID system some time back. It's a great idea, but, currently, it doesn't have the accuracy to help in close finishes. Sure, you've got a visual, but the lap times to matter. Maybe that will change in the future.
There's talk about cost. We're already being charged for the use of the current dbCom system within our entry fees. This was implemented years ago, but so many have came after this was done...well, they don't know about it.
With the turmoil in the markets and the economy, I guess I would expect that liability costs will continue to rise. Entry fees are affected by those costs. So, moving racers over toward a new system that has a cost might allow CCS to maintain the current cost of entry fees. And that might impact those that decide to race...or not.
With more and more club level racers being in their thirties to forties compared to the millennia ago that I started...LOL!...where more riders were in their twenties and thirties, the impact and responsibilities of family, retirement, and not being physically indestructible are bigger issues than buying a scoring transmitter that would even have value years down the road. Mine is five season's old, but it still has a lot of value. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
I don't think I'd be thrilled about buying a $400 transponder. I do like viewing the times and it would be nice to have them up quickly with that system though.
I don't understand why anyone would want to buy a $400.00 item when they currently don't have to. The lap times are posted directly after each event, just take a notebook and jot down your target individuals times plus your own. I guess I could see researching the past events to get goal targets, but seems like a big investment to just get the knowledge that you have to shave 2 seconds to be a top 5 or whatever. That said, I've not had the frustration of not knowling or having issues with the current system being a new racer.
BOTH systems, CCS & WERA are antiquated. Instead of buying into an old system, lets look to new technology. Is the RFID system the way to go? I do not know, but it's been in development for a few years now and deserves another assessment. The argument that they aren't accurate doesn't make sense to me. The placement of any timing device on a motorcycle would cause more inaccuracies. IE: Mounting it up front, middle, or rear of the tail section. Are there any other NEW timing / scoring options out there? Now is the time to upgrade to the 21st. century!
Quote from: bodie1331 on June 05, 2011, 01:29:30 AM
I don't understand why anyone would want to buy a $400.00 item when they currently don't have to.
The current entry cost has it built in. You pay for it now with your race entries.
It's like public education being free. You pay property taxes, and those taxes fund the system.
ok.... who's got a spare $30,000 to donate to this system.......
rfid, disposable chips, instant updates to the internet, text messaging, etc.
http://www.innovativetimingsystems.com/ITS-CheetahSystemInfo.html (http://www.innovativetimingsystems.com/ITS-CheetahSystemInfo.html)
Hey.... that's a St. Louis company - I might check it out.
Dave, there are many that don't pay property taxes and benefit from the public education system. Then there are those that don't work but received an income tax check. Dont get me started.
Quote from: majicMARKer on June 05, 2011, 10:51:27 PM
Dave, there are many that don't pay property taxes and benefit from the public education system. Then there are those that don't work but received an income tax check. Dont get me started.
There are exceptions to every rule. You get his point.
Dave, I get what you're saying. It's true, we do pay for the system currently. However, we pay what, $5.00 per entry? If you look at the end numbers, we have about twice the entries of WERA, due mostly to the lack of the transponder obstacle to entry. With the increased entries over the year, I'm sure it benefits CCS to stick with the current pricing inclusion. If we went to the same system as WERA, would we be able to retain the entries?
And so far as the RFID systems, seriously, how many races have even one finishing position that is too close to call? Even then, transponder placement could determine the outcome over who actually crossed the line first. I think it's truly a moot point. We have manual scorers anyway.
Lastly, the transponders are there to determine finishing orders. They aren't there for lap timing purposes, although it is awesome that they provide that info! If you are using the lap times as reasoning for everyone having to go out and buy $400 transponders, well I could go get a lap timer for 1/2 that price! For $400 I could get a GPS lap timer that has track mapping! That is an invalid argument to make for everyone having to buy transponders.
Quote from: mikendzel on June 06, 2011, 10:33:05 AM..However, we pay what, $5.00 per entry? If you look at the end numbers, we have about twice the entries of WERA, due mostly to the lack of the transponder obstacle to entry. With the increased entries over the year, I'm sure it benefits CCS to stick with the current pricing inclusion. If we went to the same system as WERA, would we be able to retain the entries?...
My initial choice to race with CCS was determined by spectating multiple CCS events at a local track and liking what I saw, proximity to the race tracks in my region, and being very turned off by the tech requirements by WERA. Transponders were not being used by either race org when I started racing in 1996, if both org's require the same transponder to be used the choice between which race org to race with would be the same as back then.
As a general opinion concerning this topic:The stream-lining of registration / race operations by not having to issue transponders, manually enter into the computer system all the transponder numbers as assigned to each individual racer, collect, inventory, and recharge the transponders at EVERY EVENT is another huge advantage to racers owning their own transponders - the advantages are too obvious to ignore.
I also find it hard to believe that it doesn't cost the average racer AT LEAST $400 per event if you look at all the costs involved - loss of wages, travel costs, per mile depreciation of your tow vehicle, hotel costs, race entries, race tires, race fuel, etc. With that in mind, skipping just ONE EVENT would pay for the transponder, plus most people would recover half that money when they quit racing and sell the transponder to another racer. Add to that the availability of rental units for those not able or willing to invest in a transponder and the cost excuse is simply that - an excuse.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on June 06, 2011, 12:19:18 PM
As a general opinion concerning this topic:
The stream-lining of registration / race operations by not having to issue transponders, manually enter into the computer system all the transponder numbers as assigned to each individual racer, collect, inventory, and recharge the transponders at EVERY EVENT is another huge advantage to racers owning their own transponders - the advantages are too obvious to ignore.
I also find it hard to believe that it doesn't cost the average racer AT LEAST $400 per event if you look at all the costs involved - loss of wages, travel costs, per mile depreciation of your tow vehicle, hotel costs, race entries, race tires, race fuel, etc. With that in mind, skipping just ONE EVENT would pay for the transponder, plus most people would recover half that money when they quit racing and sell the transponder to another racer. Add to that the availability of rental units for those not able or willing to invest in a transponder and the cost excuse is simply that - an excuse.
Concerning the advantages, sure there are some advantages! I'm definitely not saying that there aren't advantages to having your own transponder! However, in my opinion, the disadvantages are huge.
I'm sure for the guys that race every weekend/round, buying the transponder is no big deal. I think the majority of racers don't fall into this category, nor do they fall into the category where money is no object. I get to race 3 maybe 4 rounds per year, and I kindly refuse to miss one of the few precious rounds I actually get to attend, just to buy a piece of equipment that doesn't either make my bike faster or protect me.
Honestly, I'll probably buy one, and keep attending my 3-4 rounds with CCS, because I like the people and have a lot of friends in CCS. But it does make it EASY for me to miss a round to go race with WERA if I like the track they are running better, or if the weather doesn't look great. CCS
WILL lose entries if they require personal transponders.
BTW, my initial choice to race CCS was strictly that it was the first race I could make after I passed my race school, back in 2000. When I came back to racing in 2007, my choice was based on friends that raced and the transponder requirement. In fact, there have been a couple of weekends that I would have gone to race with WERA, except for that pesky transponder issue.
Again, I've tried to talk more than a few people into racing. The responses are ALWAYS about the cost to get involved and the level of fast required. The latter is easily overcome. The cost is the largest barrier, and adding $400 more is going to really hurt the influx of new racers.
the argument that an additional $400 will stop a rider from racing and just continue doing trackdays is nonsense.. Racers wanna race. If someone is happy doing track days, they are not thinking "hmm.. if it weren't for that $400 transponder fee i would RACE!". Nor are they looking at that as a barrier to WERA vs CCS. Riders/racers typcially go where there friends are racing, or when looking at a shedule what tracks are closer in proximity, as well as the weekend shedule.. Are some going to not be happy spending another $400 after they have already been racing ? sure, but there are some perks that come with having a transponder record your times. And it is a one time fee, not a fee you need to endure every race weekend like travel, gas, time off work, tires, etc.
While I don't want to discount your comment Greg because I know you've been around for a long time, but my personal experience with trying to recruit new racers is exactly the opposite. It's taken a lot of effort to get people to try racing, and most of the time the argument is regarding value.
I understand what your saying, but having been around racers and track riders alike.. the question of "how much is a transponder" never comes up. Now tell them you don't have to buy one now, but may have to spend $400 later and sure, they are gonna be like "say what??" BUT.. once the friends go racing, or a track day guy wants to test themselves against more than just the "fast" group on a track day.. They understand lots of money is gonna get spent to go racing. NOW, if this is a rider that says "yea, i would like to do ONE race weekend" just to say they did it, then $400 is a VIABLE reason to not race. BUT, riders would be able to rent a transponder for a reduced fee vs. payin $400 to own.
The cost/value argument will go on for as long as there are alternatives to getting a bike on track (race or just do track days). It is a serious outlay of money to get a bike on the track, and if a rider is on the fence about racing due to the cost of a transponder.. they are searching for an excuse to NOT RACE. Not a bad thing, but perhaps they don't want to be ridiculed by buddies for beeing "skeeered" .. so they say "pffffffffffffffffttt - $400 transponder, that does it.. no way"
See what i mean? You know what it takes to race from a dollar outlay, $400 is just not that much in the grand scheme of things and could be SOLD later if they decide to stop racing.
While I don't want to discount your comment Greg because I know you've been around for a long time
Greg, I think Mike is trying to say your old :lmao:
LRRS just switched to participant-owned transponders. Anyone know how it effected their turnout compared to the last few years?
I don't know that it's just transponder costs that weigh into the WERA/CCS decision. Though, for me, it definitely did for some time.
As far as Summit Point times go, it doesn't appear that either site (myracingbio or mylaps) has lap times up. Just CCS results on the CCS page.
Perhaps everyone needs to think about what the response from CCS was over the winter on the current system. Basically the system is old and dying. It needs to be replaced with something no matter what. If we end up having to buy a personal transponder, but race fees stay the same, we are out a set amount of money up front. If CCS were to go to a system that kept the same type of setup currently used where they own the transponders, don't you think race fees will go up? Say they only go up $25 a weekend. Great...but my guess would be it would be at least $50 a weekend for the first race and an additional each class. Even if you only race 3 or 4 weekends a year, it doesn't take long to piss away the money you could invest in a transponder of your own. Don't forget, used ones go for near the same price as a new one. Say you resell yours for $100 less than you bought it. Your 4 weekends would have paid for your transponder.
Is rfid technology what they use for 10Ks and running races? We just did the Warrior Dash and they put a little plastic thing on your shoe that kept the timing. You didnt even have to return it at the end of the race. But you could if you wanted and got a free beer. Is it just not accurate enough? Accuracy is over rated...it'll all even out with time. So you're a little faster one lap and little slower the next. ;-)
It can be frustrating waiting for some times to post.
Quote from: barkley57 on June 06, 2011, 08:35:48 PM
While I don't want to discount your comment Greg because I know you've been around for a long time
Greg, I think Mike is trying to say your old :lmao:
LOL.. when you have been in races, where adding the ages of TWO of the riders in front of you don't equal yours.. it is a safe bet you will not be called YOUNG!
Quote from: kawtipping on June 07, 2011, 09:19:52 AM
Perhaps everyone needs to think about what the response from CCS was over the winter on the current system. Basically the system is old and dying. It needs to be replaced with something no matter what. If we end up having to buy a personal transponder, but race fees stay the same, we are out a set amount of money up front. If CCS were to go to a system that kept the same type of setup currently used where they own the transponders, don't you think race fees will go up? Say they only go up $25 a weekend. Great...but my guess would be it would be at least $50 a weekend for the first race and an additional each class. Even if you only race 3 or 4 weekends a year, it doesn't take long to piss away the money you could invest in a transponder of your own. Don't forget, used ones go for near the same price as a new one. Say you resell yours for $100 less than you bought it. Your 4 weekends would have paid for your transponder.
yes, exactly. The money has to come from somewhere. If you race a bunch, it is offset faster. Race a couple times a year? will likely be cheaper to rent ?
Quote from: MELK-MAN on June 07, 2011, 03:04:40 PM
LOL.. when you have been in races, where adding the ages of TWO of the riders in front of you don't equal yours.. it is a safe bet you will not be called YOUNG!
HAHA!
Funny, this thread started cause we can't get May BHF lap times up on myracingbio. I just check again for times and now the event the week after are posted but still know BHF!!!!
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Personal thoughts only
Scoring equipment is a function of race organization, a minimal expense <$100 for a rider to spend for personalization of laptimes I can see as reasonable.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on June 07, 2011, 05:43:58 PM
Personal thoughts only
Scoring equipment is a function of race organization, a minimal expense <$100 for a rider to spend for personalization of laptimes I can see as reasonable.
$100 transponders? That I can see.
Again, if lap times are the problem, buy a lap timer! They're cheaper than the transponders AND you get your lap times as you cross the finish line, still on your bike. You don't even need to wait until you get to a computer to look up the website!
Also Greeny, you mentioned earning sponsors in your original post. I truly think that something along the lines of more in depth coverage in RRW, and on our own CCS website would go WAY farther towards gaining sponsorship than a lap time website. If CCS covered its own racing, and added rider profiles in their current website, the traffic would increase tremendously; thus your racing would provide greater advertising coverage and benefit to sponsors.
i don't disagree with that, but honestly, buying our own transponders and guiding potential sponsors to a profile page on mylaps (or whatever system we decide to use) is probably more likely.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on June 07, 2011, 05:43:58 PM
Personal thoughts only
Scoring equipment is a function of race organization, a minimal expense <$100 for a rider to spend for personalization of laptimes I can see as reasonable.
Sounds good! Buy in bulk. It's cheaper that way!
Quote from: mikendzel on June 06, 2011, 10:33:05 AM
And so far as the RFID systems, seriously, how many races have even one finishing position that is too close to call? Even then, transponder placement could determine the outcome over who actually crossed the line first. I think it's truly a moot point. We have manual scorers anyway.
Amazingly, I was in a CCS race where the manual scorers couldn't call it. And the race director had to use our transponders to make a final determination, after looking at our locations.
At one time, we had timed qualifying even for ULGP. But, that's the way it is...
I'll echo the last comment...the current CCS system is old and dying...
Looks like LRRS has been trying out some rfid timing since last year. I don't know anything about the Zoomius system they were using other there is a motorcycle race guy involved in the company. Looks like they may have only been using 1 antenna which could be the source of some of the problems they encountered.
http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/pit-area/55779-lrrs-zoomius.html (http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/pit-area/55779-lrrs-zoomius.html)
The local St. Louis company (Innovative Timing Systems) uses multiple antenna.
I think requiring transponders to be purchased would be a bad business decision for CCS. I agree with the previous poster that it is an attractive feature versus WERA for trying to bring new racers into the fold. That and the slightly less stringent tech requirements swayed my decision to race with CCS three years ago. I think the recent Summit point grid numbers CCS versus WERA bear that out. I would also credit CCS for embracing NJMP as a boost to the attractiveness of CCS versus WERA. Good job on that for sure.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 10, 2011, 03:31:31 PM
Amazingly, I was in a CCS race where the manual scorers couldn't call it. And the race director had to use our transponders to make a final determination, after looking at our locations.
Ironically the AMA didnt use the transponder/timing but instead reverted back to the photo to determine the outcome.
Mark
Quote from: MELK-MAN on June 06, 2011, 05:44:23 PM
I understand what your saying, but having been around racers and track riders alike.. the question of "how much is a transponder" never comes up. Now tell them you don't have to buy one now, but may have to spend $400 later and sure, they are gonna be like "say what??" BUT.. once the friends go racing, or a track day guy wants to test themselves against more than just the "fast" group on a track day.. They understand lots of money is gonna get spent to go racing. NOW, if this is a rider that says "yea, i would like to do ONE race weekend" just to say they did it, then $400 is a VIABLE reason to not race. BUT, riders would be able to rent a transponder for a reduced fee vs. payin $400 to own.
The cost/value argument will go on for as long as there are alternatives to getting a bike on track (race or just do track days). It is a serious outlay of money to get a bike on the track, and if a rider is on the fence about racing due to the cost of a transponder.. they are searching for an excuse to NOT RACE. Not a bad thing, but perhaps they don't want to be ridiculed by buddies for beeing "skeeered" .. so they say "pffffffffffffffffttt - $400 transponder, that does it.. no way"
See what i mean? You know what it takes to race from a dollar outlay, $400 is just not that much in the grand scheme of things and could be SOLD later if they decide to stop racing.
My personal experience is that when I went from trackday rider to racer, not having to buy a transponder was my deciding factor to go with CCS. How many people out there made that same decision? I then went on to race solely with CCS for three years. Because of the initial discussion about the possibility of having to buy a transponder for CCS, I purchased one and am now splitting my racing between CCS and another organization
A transponder is expensive no doubt but what are the options? Eventually, the current system will fail or the upkeep costs will get too high. The system needs to be replaced, the debate is how to pay for it. I raced 3 CCS events last year and 1 WERA event. This year, I'm doing mostly WERA. The cost of fuel is taking a huge portion of my racing budget. Now, the closer event is the one I will attend.
WERA and AHRMA use AMB and I think the AMA does too. Mylaps.com is awesome. IMO, CCS should use the same system. It works great.
When I started racing a few years back I had friends who raced with ccs, and some who raced with WERA. After hearing the silly tech rules over there, and the fact that I had to spend an additional three hundred something on a transponder, the decision was a no brainer.
Much like the guy who posted the entries for recent rouudns at each org, I think the point is im sure im not the only NEWB who chose CCS over WERA to save $300.
Would I quit racing if CCS required a transponder ? Doubt it...but I may take a closer look at WERA because I already have a standard windscreen in my parts bin, I have friends that race there, and they race at more tracks.
Times are up from Summit, VIR, and Homestead.
http://www.myracingbio.com/
I would if I could use it in wera also.
Am I missing something? Is the current system about to fail? Will CCS need to make a large investment to keep the current system up? There's some 375 racers in the Atlantic region... is it reasonable to say that across the US, some 700 CCS racers would need to purchase transponders?. As a whole, do we NEED to make a $300k investment into this? Doesn't seem like everyone has a big fat racing budgets lately...
I'm definitely one who started racing CCS over WERA as a transponder tipped the scales. If I had one, I would consider doing WERA races that fit better in my schedule then out of conference CCS races that were tough to make.
Its not that I'm being cheap, it just seems like the wrong time with the economy. I know 2 CCS racers who are cutting out race weekends due to budget.
Quote from: TAlber8 on July 11, 2011, 07:01:36 PM
Am I missing something? Is the current system about to fail? Will CCS need to make a large investment to keep the current system up? There's some 375 racers in the Atlantic region... is it reasonable to say that across the US, some 700 CCS racers would need to purchase transponders?. As a whole, do we NEED to make a $300k investment into this? Doesn't seem like everyone has a big fat racing budgets lately...
I'm definitely one who started racing CCS over WERA as a transponder tipped the scales. If I had one, I would consider doing WERA races that fit better in my schedule then out of conference CCS races that were tough to make.
Its not that I'm being cheap, it just seems like the wrong time with the economy. I know 2 CCS racers who are cutting out race weekends due to budget.
Yep, you missed the thread from before the start of this season. The transponders are getting to the end of their life cycle, and if I remember correctly they are leased and the lease is about up. So either CCS shells out lots of money it doesn't have to update the current system or they go the AMB route where we would all have to buy (or rent) our own transponders. In the end it truly becomes a wash unless you only run a race or two and hang up your helmet.
I did miss that, kinda sheds a new light on the argument
I agree with what Eric Kelcher said in another thread:
"There are some transponders/transmitters in pipeline that use existing track loops that have lower cost than AMB. With the life of both the original Westhold transmitters and AMB transponders reaching their end of useful life I would wait on word from Kevin before rushing out to purchase a personal unit."
Quote from: TrophyGal on July 20, 2011, 09:07:51 AM
I agree with what Eric Kelcher said in another thread:
"There are some transponders/transmitters in pipeline that use existing track loops that have lower cost than AMB. With the life of both the original Westhold transmitters and AMB transponders reaching their end of useful life I would wait on word from Kevin before rushing out to purchase a personal unit."
Good to hear options are in the pipeline.
The latest CCS Newsletter says...
After much debate, the Fort Worth office has decided to go with the
new Westhold “Activated” personal transponders for 2012. This will
require all riders who participate in events promoted out of the Fort
Worth Office and CCS Florida to purchase their own Westhold personal
transponder or rent a unit for the event.
So does this mean just people in Florida and Texas?
I took it to mean that the new transponders will be used for the races where you send your entry into CCS .... not the affiliates like Loudon and the SW Region. The exception on the affiliate is the Florida Region.
So that would mean the new transponders will be used in the Midwest, Atlantic, Mid Atlantic, Southeast and Daytona.
http://www.westhold.com/products_timing.html (http://www.westhold.com/products_timing.html)
Activated (Blue) - A cost effective unit meant for motorcycles, karts and quarter midgets. No charging necessary. Permanent internal battery (battery life 3 years depending on usage. Non-use shelf life up to 9 years). ($80 retail)*
* Prices only for transponder. Does not included charger or holders. Please contact us for quantity (10 pieces or more) pricing and package pricing. (Click here to request pricing information)
You can find the price breakdown here
http://www.westhold.com/docs/docstemp.html
http://www.westhold.com/docs/PriceList.pdf
Quantity Price
1-9 $80.00
10-49 $75.00
50-99 $65.00
100+ $60.00
Activator** $350.00
If anyone wants to get a group buy going I'm in.
Maybe I'm alone on this... but the way that I read the Click Here for your advanced copy of the License Renewal Mailer (http://ccsracing.us/forms/2012/license/2012%20license%20mailer.pdf), I don't think that me in the MidWest will need to buy a Transponder. Well shit, I don't know... I'd like to hear an official word on this before I go & buy one... as it seems to be up to speculation at this point.
Quote from: twist-throttle on December 09, 2011, 11:26:31 PM
Maybe I'm alone on this... but the way that I read the Click Here for your advanced copy of the License Renewal Mailer (http://ccsracing.us/forms/2012/license/2012%20license%20mailer.pdf), I don't think that me in the MidWest will need to buy a Transponder. Well shit, I don't know... I'd like to hear an official word on this before I go & buy one... as it seems to be up to speculation at this point.
No, you don't
need to buy a transponder. But, if you don't you will have to rent one for $25 per race weekend. The key here is that the races in the Midwest Region are promoted out of the Ft Worth office, i.e., that's where you send your entries to.
Quote from: gixxer188 on December 09, 2011, 11:11:02 PM
You can find the price breakdown here
http://www.westhold.com/docs/docstemp.html
http://www.westhold.com/docs/PriceList.pdf
Quantity Price
1-9 $80.00
10-49 $75.00
50-99 $65.00
100+ $60.00
Activator** $350.00
If anyone wants to get a group buy going I'm in.
Just so nobody is confused on this.... that $350 activator is not something that each racer will need to by. That's something that CCS will set up at each track to "turn on" your transponder before you go on the track. It will probably be set up near Pit Out as your bike needs to pass within 5ft of it for the activation signal to be received. Note too the standardized mounting location on the right fork leg. That'll be a plus for guys who have battled with finding a good spot to mount the old units.
For sprint racing it will turn on your transponder for 1 hr. If you're doing a team challenge you will need to by (or rent) a special version that stays turned on for 2.5 hrs.
The design on this is to conserve the life of the battery so that it will last the entire race season without needing to be recharged.
From everything I've found this sounds like a great solution for everyone!
Ok, so it's the blue one?
It doesn't go into a little pouch or bracket? It straps directly onto the bike?
Does it belong to the bike or the rider?
I'm asking because X and I will be bringing three bikes and sharing one next year, and the old style was easy to swap (transponder went with rider). If the transponder goes with the bike, can we use one transponder for both of us? If someone brings two (or more) bikes, do you buy a transponder for each bike, or do you buy one, and have to move it from bike to bike?
Quote from: Burt Munro on December 10, 2011, 01:16:26 AMNote too the standardized mounting location on the right fork leg. That'll be a plus for guys who have battled with finding a good spot to mount the old units.
What if you race a Yamaha GTS? It doesnt have a right fork leg. :biggrin:
Then you'll have to put it on the left fork leg and race backwards. Which, come to think of it, should be pretty natural for you! :kicknuts:
Truckstop poses good questions, I'm bringing 2 bikes this coming season...so do I need 1 or 2 transponders....aka how hard are they to move bike to bike
Oh and in on the group buy idea
One transponder unless you want two.
OK then, I want one! Where is the pre-order form?
Quote from: truckstop on December 12, 2011, 11:18:19 AM
Ok, so it's the blue one?
It doesn't go into a little pouch or bracket? It straps directly onto the bike?
Does it belong to the bike or the rider?
I'm asking because X and I will be bringing three bikes and sharing one next year, and the old style was easy to swap (transponder went with rider). If the transponder goes with the bike, can we use one transponder for both of us? If someone brings two (or more) bikes, do you buy a transponder for each bike, or do you buy one, and have to move it from bike to bike?
I'm no expert on this .... just figuring it out based on what I've read and what I know from dealing with the timing system and equipment. Here's what I can throw out there with reasonable certainty:
1. Yes, it's the blue one.
2. If 1 rider has 2 bikes it's your choice - buy(or rent) 1 transponder or 2. If you buy 2 then you don't have to worry about switching it from bike to bike like you did in the past
3. The transponder is registered to the rider - not the bike. If 2 people are sharing 1 bike for different events, i.e. Rider X in Ex Ultralight Superbike and Rider J in 125 GP it would be the same as past years - you swap the transponder out depending on who's riding the bike.
4. Attaching the transponder should be as easy as zip-tying it to the fork leg. I'm sure someone will come up with a more advanced way of attaching and be able to fund their entire season of racing by selling their invention.
5. If you plan on racing Team Challenge it will require a different transponder than the one you use for Sprint and GT races. The Team Challenge version will stay activated for 2 1/2 hrs after you go past Pit Out. The Sprint/GT version will only stay activated for 1 hour. This is done to prolong the life of the battery for the entire season - you'll only run 1 Team Challenge per race weekend whereas you'll run a number of Sprint/GT races each weekend. If you're only going to run 1 Team Challenge for the year it may make more sense to just rent the Transponder rather than buy one for 1 event.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: Greeny on June 02, 2011, 10:35:28 AM
So, whaddya guys think?
Well, you kinda got your wish.
Are you gunna race next year Jordanthesandbagger?
All Westhold transponders (yellow, blue and orange) will work, correct?
Quote from: nafterclifen on December 14, 2011, 05:50:33 PM
All Westhold transponders (yellow, blue and orange) will work, correct?
I checked with Westhold...... The yellow rechargeable and orange hardwire transponders are still usable. All our transponders down to our R/C car ones are completely compatible and can be read by the same decoder.
So why doesn't CCS just sell the old yellow ones to us that want them for less than the cost of a new blue one and rid themselves of their inventory?
Quote from: gixxer188 on December 16, 2011, 09:32:23 AM
So why doesn't CCS just sell the old yellow ones to us that want them for less than the cost of a new blue one and rid themselves of their inventory?
I believe that CCS had leased these from Westhold and hence, do not own them an can not re-sell what they do not own.
Even if CCS did own these units (or perhaps has a bargain purchase option contained within the lease), it would make sense to me that these may make up the a significant portion of the rental fleet for that will be available at the track.
One one hand, it would be nice if all racing orgs used the same transponders. However, given that these units appear much less expensive than the others, this isn't as bad as it could have been from an economics point of view if you only are racing CCS.
George
Quote from: gixxer188 on December 16, 2011, 09:32:23 AM
So why doesn't CCS just sell the old yellow ones to us that want them for less than the cost of a new blue one and rid themselves of their inventory?
These were part of lease program, as stated before, and were signicantly more expensive units; $200+ not including charger.
will CCS be selling the new units for sprint and tc at the group buy prices or are we on our own?
tim
Quote from: smoke54 on December 18, 2011, 07:20:31 AM
will CCS be selling the new units for sprint and tc at the group buy prices or are we on our own?
tim
The price for Pre-order on a Westhold Activated Transponder is $80. These units will be available for shipment approximately January 15, 2012. If you order your unit before January 15, 2012, standard USPS shipping will be included free of charge. After January 15th, standard shipping and handling rates will apply.
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2012/misc/2011transponder%20pre-order%20form.pdf
I'm willing to bet that CCS received a volume discount on their purchase of transponders but according to the pricing information they posted, they are not extending the discount to their members. Hence why license and entry fees remain the same this year, the transponder sales will create income.
thanks Brian.
tim
Quote from: nafterclifen on December 18, 2011, 07:19:32 PM
I'm willing to bet that CCS received a volume discount on their purchase of transponders but according to the pricing information they posted, they are not extending the discount to their members. Hence why license and entry fees remain the same this year, the transponder sales will create income.
That may be true, but they still have to buy the transmitters with back ups! I think the CCS crew did ok keeping the costs down. I didn't have to buy the AMD transponder!
@ Smoke 54, you're welcome Tim!
Quote from: nafterclifen on December 18, 2011, 07:19:32 PM
I'm willing to bet that CCS received a volume discount on their purchase of transponders but according to the pricing information they posted, they are not extending the discount to their members. Hence why license and entry fees remain the same this year, the transponder sales will create income.
Since you are "willing to bet members are not getting discounted pricing" on transponders, are you suggesting "members" are getting ripped off by CCS? If so, "hence" you sir, are a God damn fool!
HD
No one ever said that any savings CCS may have received had to be passed onto us. I think you're expecting too much. Why not let them keep the extra to help keep costs down in other areas? People that run businesses are in business to stay in business and that doesn't happen if they are always giving away the farm. If you expect to always be able to buy stuff at dealer cost pretty soon there won't be anyone left to buy from because they can't stay in business on such low profit margins.
I'm all for buying at the lowest price possible but I also understand that businesses need to make a profit to stay in business. And I'm more than willing to let them make a profit to do so.
Quote from: gixxer188 on December 19, 2011, 11:26:52 AM
No one ever said that any savings CCS may have received had to be passed onto us. I think you're expecting too much. Why not let them keep the extra to help keep costs down in other areas? People that run businesses are in business to stay in business and that doesn't happen if they are always giving away the farm. If you expect to always be able to buy stuff at dealer cost pretty soon there won't be anyone left to buy from because they can't stay in business on such low profit margins.
I'm all for buying at the lowest price possible but I also understand that businesses need to make a profit to stay in business. And I'm more than willing to let them make a profit to do so.
As much as I dislike CCS and their practices, I agree with you. CCS needs to make money in order to stay in business. Economics 101
Quote from: steve p on December 19, 2011, 02:35:01 PM
As much as I dislike CCS and their practices, I agree with you. CCS needs to make money in order to stay in business. Economics 101
So, as much as you dislike CCS and their practices", "CCS needs to make money in order to stay in business"! Nice one, who say's you can't have it both ways?
HD
Quote from: hdpromos on December 19, 2011, 09:54:18 AM
Since you are "willing to bet members are not getting discounted pricing" on transponders, are you suggesting "members" are getting ripped off by CCS? If so, "hence" you sir, are a God damn fool!
HD
I didn't suggest anything. My response was targeted to Tim's question "will CCS be selling the new units for sprint and tc at the group buy prices or are we on our own."
Quote from: steve p on December 19, 2011, 02:35:01 PM
As much as I dislike CCS and their practices, I agree with you. CCS needs to make money in order to stay in business. Economics 101
Most of the things that CCS does that make me upset leave me wondering "how the heck they do they make money operating like this... "
Quote from: vnvbandit on December 18, 2011, 09:20:02 PM
That may be true, but they still have to buy the transmitters with back ups! I think the CCS crew did ok keeping the costs down. I didn't have to buy the AMD transponder!
+1 !
I didn't see it reported anywhere that the new timing system will have a corresponding web site where we can go and view lap times. Is that happening?
I was really happy to see the transponders were only $80.00 to be honest. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
Yes, in the grand scheme of the cost of motorcycle roadracing, eighty bucks is not unreasonable.
Quote from: eh427 on December 21, 2011, 05:34:06 PM
Yes, in the grand scheme of the cost of motorcycle roadracing, eighty bucks is not unreasonable.
Agreed. I wonder if the cost of entry fees are going to go down to match the savings from CCS having to lease them instead.
Sounds like CCS should just Give Away The Farm! as any other 501 org!
Quote from: Gixxerblade on December 24, 2011, 09:35:51 PM
Agreed. I wonder if the cost of entry fees are going to go down to match the savings from CCS having to lease them instead.
I think it's more of a case of entry fees not going up because of the savings.
Quote from: Gixxerblade on December 24, 2011, 09:35:51 PM
Agreed. I wonder if the cost of entry fees are going to go down to match the savings from CCS having to lease them instead.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy new Year!
HD
Quote from: metricdevilmoto on December 21, 2011, 09:54:25 AM
I didn't see it reported anywhere that the new timing system will have a corresponding web site where we can go and view lap times. Is that happening?
Cause there isn't
Does anyone know what the handheld unit does and is it programable to you're transponder. Looks to me that you could use it for individual lap time keeping, not sure though the web site is pretty vauge. Price does'nt look to bad if it could be used for a personal lap timer.
Quote from: metricdevilmoto on December 21, 2011, 09:54:25 AM
I didn't see it reported anywhere that the new timing system will have a corresponding web site where we can go and view lap times. Is that happening?
My question also.
2012 will mark the sixth season of using my AMB transmitter. I bet I could sell it yet for quite a bit more than 50% of current retail...
Quote from: Super Dave on December 28, 2011, 04:23:43 AM
My question also.
2012 will mark the sixth season of using my AMB transmitter. I bet I could sell it yet for quite a bit more than 50% of current retail...
Yes, but you're just stirring the pot now.
I too would have like to switch, but alas that is not the case.
Yeah Dave got a big stick out to stir with ::)
The AMB transponders have battery life of 5-7 years replacement batteries ~$100 thru 3rd party as officially batteries are non-replacable and a transfer fee of $40 for used transponder.
And yes there are plans for use of the Westhold lap time posting capabilities be it on the ASRA/CCS website or the Westhold website.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on January 04, 2012, 10:39:08 PM
Yeah Dave got a big stick out to stir with ::)
If you had boobs, I'd be happier when you said that... LOL!
Quote from: vnvbandit on December 18, 2011, 11:20:50 AM
The price for Pre-order on a Westhold Activated Transponder is $80. These units will be available for shipment approximately January 15, 2012. If you order your unit before January 15, 2012, standard USPS shipping will be included free of charge. After January 15th, standard shipping and handling rates will apply.
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2012/misc/2011transponder%20pre-order%20form.pdf (http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2012/misc/2011transponder%20pre-order%20form.pdf)
Or just wait to buy it at the track your first event of the year and avoid all those troublesome shipping rates and handling fees. :cheers:
OK, but don't be surprised if it cost more than $80 track side.
According to the newsletter they will be $80 at the track.
QuoteFor the events run from Fort Worth and CCS Florida, we will no longer "loan" out units, we will rent them if the rider does not want to purchase them. Rental will be $25 per race weekend with a valid credit card. If you leave the facility with the unit, we will charge you the $80 price of the unit.
awesome! thanks ccs...