And why? Why not bring them back and have them start with the ltwt bikes. Call it sportsman. Superbike rules. EXs, Hawks, and FZR400s, and Motards. Won't take up track time and offers more entries for CCS. What you think?
2004
there were not any bikes being produced/imported for the classes or in case of ultralight sportsman noone was building/running the motards the class was designed for so grids fell to unsustainable levels.
What has changed in last 7 years?
The SV is now the dominant bike for Ultralight Superbike. Oh wait count the 125GP bike too. The 125GP bike will literally run away from a well ridden LW bike at Jennings and it also runs damn well against my Ducati 800 on all the other tracks.
There are quite a few Motards here in Florida but were special. There are also three FZR400 here too. No concessions for those bikes, Next year I will submit my requests for the FZR400. I love running the FZR and it is time for a little concession.
Quote from: Eric Kelcher on December 25, 2010, 12:48:31 PM
2004
there were not any bikes being produced/imported for the classes or in case of ultralight sportsman noone was building/running the motards the class was designed for so grids fell to unsustainable levels.
What has changed in last 7 years?
What has changed is your competitor has a place for these bikes to race and you don't. Starting them with an existing class doesn't use up track time. If 3 or 4 bikes show up that's more entries. First, you run off the Sportsman guys, then you run off the SV guys, now you're pissing off everyone else in lightweight by allowing in the GP bikes. Keep it up and you'll have 2 guys on Bimotas and two guys on TZ250s racing each other. "lightweight" bikes that cost 3 times more than a 600. That's a great lightweight grid.....
I would spend three times the money on my Ducati 800 if I had it. Instead I bought three times the bikes.
I don't understand why the LW class isn't just the class for everything unless it is a less than 10 year old 600, 750 or 1000. Everything else seems to be in that class. Bring a bike, any bike, it will be legal for LW in CCS.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on December 26, 2010, 12:25:29 AM
What has changed is your competitor has a place for these bikes to race and you don't. Starting them with an existing class doesn't use up track time. If 3 or 4 bikes show up that's more entries. First, you run off the Sportsman guys, then you run off the SV guys, now you're pissing off everyone else in lightweight by allowing in the GP bikes. Keep it up and you'll have 2 guys on Bimotas and two guys on TZ250s racing each other. "lightweight" bikes that cost 3 times more than a 600. That's a great lightweight grid.....
Like I said before, I think there intention is to produce larger grids. You know the analogy, keep dumping bikes into the LT class and eventually we will have big grids. Unfortunately, I think the last couple changes to the light weight rules are actually contributing to SMALLER grids and the guys in charge either don't get it, or just don't care. There's always going to be those who think this bike should be allowed in, or that one should be allowed in but good sound business decisions is ultimately what should be considered. After all, CCS is in business to make money. The light weight class is a perfect example of making POOR business decisions. From a business prospective, you should look at the class and take note of your biggest costumer (most common bike on the grid). Now common sense dictates that you don't make rules changes that might run off that costumer, right?
Quote from: poppop587 on December 27, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
I don't understand why the LW class isn't just the class for everything unless it is a less than 10 year old 600, 750 or 1000. Everything else seems to be in that class. Bring a bike, any bike, it will be legal for LW in CCS.
That's pretty much what it has turned into. With the current rules, it's cheaper to race a 600 then it is to race lightweight. In CCS, the days of buying a competitive supersport legal bike for $3500 are gone. Now, you have to buy a Bimota or dump a wad of cash into a Ducati to have a competitive lightweight ride. The question is where does the low budget racer go where he can be competitive? The answer is WERA. A lot of SV guys I have talked to are switching over. Plus the guys with older Sportsman bikes can race in D superbike or in some cases Clubman. Check out the WERA Forum. There is already chatter about WERA trying to get a race at Daytona.
speaking of rules, how come the BMW HP2 is indexed out of lightweight classes but the Bimota isn't???
There used to be always more then 20 bikes in a LW race when i started. in 2000. In 2006 I went to barber and there was 35 bikes in my race and I got my worst finish ever at 23rd place!!In 2009 when we were there there was only around 5 bikes in the same races.I guess thats why we dont go there anymore.I would like to have another class to race my FZR also.
No one says anything about 600's?? What if you have a 1997 ZX6R or a 1998 GSXR 600? Your not goona catch up to the newer bikes so what do you do??? Just save them for track days I guess, and have fun riding them not worrying about how fast your going.
We are getting off topic a little here and back to the "what is lightweinght" topic. I believe the rules have been this way for some years now until adding in the GP bikes into the Superbike class. The Ducati motor tech hasn't really changed much, but the bikes have become better. Yes Bimota has built a bike that is ultra expensive for the average beginner. If I can use Kat on her Bimotas-she truely is a first year racer with the ability to afford a Bimota and she has done well. She has improved tremendously by riding what it seems like every weekend. She attends every big school known to man stateside and even abroad. That's why she is fast.
Now back on topic-Sportsman, Yes but maybe make it GP rules. GP rules will allow me to use an FZR600 case and replace the aging and hard to find FZR400 case. There is not much difference in the case and yes the 560cc motor is built using FZR400 case and 600 crank.
Then there is the topic of that FZR rider cheating and using oversize FZR600 motor. Is it any different than the current crop of SV guys running Ultralight with larger bore motors. I see so many times SV guys with High comp pistons running SS, or that SS legal overbored SV running Ultralight. I don't complain because in my eyes they need it to keep the competition close.
In Florida we have been able to bring back the Vintage class after it had been cancelled the year before. What we have chosen is to run a limited schedule during the year. We initially chose to not have trophies, although Henry has continued to give out plaques for the top three. In the end the Top Premier Class points leader won this really nice trophy($500).
I would have no problem with "GP type" rules for sportsman. I say GP type because the 2 stroke GP bikes will jump in there also. Yes I agree, the ease of cheating should not drive the rulebook. In some ways it has (milling of the head and quickshifters in supersport) but if you need FZR600 cases it shouldn't be an issue. If someone feels you're running a full FZR motor than it's up to then to lay down the cash and protest.
As far as older in-line 4 cyl bikes like 94-99 600s. Make a vintage 600 class and let them run with the 600s but scored separately.
Once again like a stated before. A new class that runs with an existing one doesn't burn track time and adds entries.
I like the idea
Again, I simply want to know what other class has bikes from 125cc to 1200cc in it. That doesn't sound reasonable to me or anyone else that I know. Now to talk about the cheating issue. Cheating should never be tolerated. I know that some may unknowingly cheat by misreading a rule or simply not knowing but that is not normally the case. Those that cheat know they are cheating and usually the guy that throws down the money in a protest is doing so because he is cheating and knows the other guy must be cheating to blow by him the way he just did. Now with that said, the poor guy who bought a LW bike when it was a reasonable class may not be able to afford a new or different bike but he can afford to do a little cheating. When the rules make you have to cheat to be competitive there is a major problem. Once again, look at the enteries in the races going back several years when grids were larger. Those bikes are leaving the racing grids and you are getting fewer bikes. The bikes you are getting are the ones that you seem to be catering too. If they were that important, the grids would have increased in size, they did not. I have run a business for many years, and I know that you never do anything to piss off the top 10% of your customers. They generate 70% of you income. CCS has taken it upon themselves to piss off 70% of their customers and expect good things to come from it. I don't think so!!!! Please stop!!! I have always liked running with CCS but you have made it impossible for me to justify spending my money with you except on rare occasions that you run at Summit or NJMP.
Well this has been a thread about sportsman class racing and not the lightweight class-that's the other thread. Anyway the lightweight class seems to me as a class that is an indexed class where there are multiple configurations of motors and bikes coming together. For 2011 the Ultralight class will be a class including 125GP machines(water cooled) up to aircooled 800's. The lightweight will consist of 250GP machines(water cooled) up to aircooled 1200. Don't be fooled though because just because something is 1200 it doesn't mean it is the fastest. The 1200 also includes the Harley motors or are they 1300+??
I remember when middleweight was once GPZ550's and Seca 550's. That has changed and so must the lightweight class change as well. It is possible that a sportsman class would have been the more appropriate class but consider this-the lightweight class have had these rules for soe time now. The Ducati aircooled motor has been within those rules for a long time and haven't changed that much. Yeah Bimota has used that to their advantage and built a bike using the Ducati 1070 motor (I think) which is also based on the 1000DS.
Typically around the country you won't be racing against a Bimota so there is no reason for you to worry-not many can afford it. Racing against a Ducati 1000 was put to the test when Arnie Hastings took on some very fast Ducati 1000 riders and beat them with his SV. It can be done. Spend enough time with your SS SV and you can achieve some of the things that Ed Key has achieved with his SS SV.
If the Sportsman class was to be instituted should the lightweight class be populated by the true lightweight machine-the FZR400?
Just some thoughts... Time moves on and CCS has chosen a different path than WERA.
I wonder what the grids were like for WERA say ten years ago, and the comparison of the CCS grids at the same time. I seem to think that the grids are smaller just because the grids are smaller. It seems to me that the most populated class is the middleweight class.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on December 28, 2010, 02:26:30 PM
As far as older in-line 4 cyl bikes like 94-99 600s. Make a vintage 600 class and let them run with the 600s but scored separately.
Once again like a stated before. A new class that runs with an existing one doesn't burn track time and adds entries.
There is. Its called Thunderbike. Although it has limits for 600 liquid cooled I4's up to 1992 (although they let F2's up to 94 and FZR600's up to the end of production in 99 since they are pretty much unchanged from 92).
Thunderbike used to be Heavyweight Sportsman. Was a fun class. Old VFR700's, hurricanes, oil cooled 750's. But when theres only 5 bikes in it for a season, things change.
9 weeks to go and the season starts. Interestingly, CCS and WERA have back to back weekends at Roebling in March. It will be a good time to study the results/lap times with each orgs rules package.
That's just not enough time for me to rebuild all the bkes I need done. The Ducati needs to come completely apart to have the frame painted and the FZR needs to be completed and fine tuned.
So the answer is what? Run only worn out antquies in lightweght? Limit anything (high tech)? So make the bimotas and the duel spark motor illegal? Your still not going to fill the grid. Lightweight is dying because the averge guy rides a 600 on the street so when he looks at a race bike he looks at 600s or bigger the only ones left are cheap old guys who like working on there bikes. Yhats why two strokes are about gone because it requires you to work on it. So now the last 5 guys in the class fuss about what should be legal. It doesn't matter who you let in the grid will be smaller next year. No rule change is going to increase grids I even gave a payout in tbike and it did not add one bike. Buy a dyno and a scale hire a operator 80hp lighweight 125middleweight 175heavyweight and its done
Yes there is a big performance gap in the lightweight classes,but even the fastest LW bikes are 3-6 sec slower a lap then the fastest 600 in the same day.So if you put them to race in the 600 class,there is no way your gonna catch up to win even if its a 10 person grid.
Marc & Mark-That makes a lof of sense.
Markie I don't think I've ever made any sense
Probably what's really hurt lightweght enteries is no. contingency without that reason to race that class why would you. Buells gone ducati cheaped out suzuki is out. So why start there? I started at forty and dummied up and bought a air cooled bike to start with. But if I was 30ish I would buy a 848 or a 600 and wait till I'm criippled to buy a lighweight. Go to a track day no one rides. Lightweght. There will be fifty bikes and 5 of them will be true lightweghts and 3 of those will be racers and the other two didn't have anything else to ride
yep when i did both nesba vir full corse 3.25mi trackdays i was the only LW bike out there.
I never did track days before racing, but I did start on a 1991 FZR600. Does that count as a middleweight or lightweight.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 28, 2010, 11:42:36 PMI seem to think that the grids are smaller just because the grids are smaller. It seems to me that the most populated class is the middleweight class.
Yeah, a lot of truth there...
Middleweight classes have been and will be popular. A lot of riders start their riding on 600's, for good or for bad, and then their street bike becomes their racing bike. 600cc production based racing has and will continue to be one of the most competitive classes worldwide. It can be the starter class, a class that one travels through, and it can be a class that is the final destination.
There are a lot of stresses on racing in general, so, sure, grids are down. Exchange rates, employment, emissions...honestly, it's a huge list anymore.
I do still believe that the complexity of some of CCS's structure has made things a little goofy. Between five to seven year amateurs and experts returning as amateurs, failure to have something more like a "close to production class", and other things...well, that isn't helping.
Quote from: Super Dave on January 03, 2011, 02:41:26 PM
I do still believe that the complexity of some of CCS's structure has made things a little goofy. Between five to seven year amateurs and experts returning as amateurs, failure to have something more like a "close to production class", and other things...well, that isn't helping.
Dave, I agree that economy is an issue and a lot of people have less money to go racing. In addition, the reduced consumver spending has resulted in lower amounts of contingency being made available to support rading so that per-event "net" costs are up at the same time really compounding the issue.
It may help, but do you make SuperSport became more production oriented accross the board. Limit the modificaitons in this class to bodywork, springs and tires (ok, maybe rearsets as well). Or, do you keep SuperSport as it currently is and create a new "Sport Production" class - but then do you run it in conjuction with SS or do you eliminate somehting else in the race day?
Really difficult questions - the devil is always in the detail.
George
Quote from: apriliaman on December 30, 2010, 11:12:07 PM
Yes there is a big performance gap in the lightweight classes,but even the fastest LW bikes are 3-6 sec slower a lap then the fastest 600 in the same day.So if you put them to race in the 600 class,there is no way your gonna catch up to win even if its a 10 person grid.
I have seen a front runing LW bike run mi-dpack or the middleweight class, but then again that's what the SV guys are left with in lightweight. I must say that Doucette on his SV ran extremely well at Homestead against the fastest Bimota.
As for a stock class-I seem to think most guys are not just in it for the rider aspect but they are also in it for who can best tune the bike. HP mods come to mind along with all the "bling" that is attractive to the "street rider gone racing".
Quote from: majicMARKer on January 03, 2011, 05:07:25 PM
I have seen a front runing LW bike run mi-dpack or the middleweight class,
A few years back when I was running my CBR600F2 in Thunderbike I would race it in GTU and MWSB for fun. Despite the ungodly weight of that steel framed pig, at tight tracks I could finish mid-pack. Even at Road America where I was giving up huge amounts of speed on all the straights I didn't finish last (OK, it was like 2nd or 3rd to last, but it wasn't last). It was actually a lot of fun and a huge sense of accomplishment given that every lap I would pass 5-6 bikes between the Carosel, Thunder Alley and Canada Corner only to have all of them suck my paint off by the entry to Turn 1.
As I think about it, perhaps one of the reasons that grids are smaller is that there is always a 1st place finisher at a race and everyone can not win. The youth of today are so spoiled and used to getting their participation trophies that they can not accept that they are not all #1. Think about the demographics at the track. Seems to me that there are just fewer young faces when I am racing but they are all there at the few track days I have attended.
Maybe?
George
George it seems you may have something there. In conversation with another racer, who incidentally races AHRMA, reported that the AHRMA grids are sunstantial and make the CCS rounds look like a ghost town. He also reports the average age of the AHRMA group is also substantial compared to the CCS group.
We now live in a society of entitlement.
George, you might be onto something...
Doesn't cover the whole "demographic", but it does explain some of the change. Fewer willing to be part of the competitive crowd.
Not that it would work, but maybe that dyno and a scale would be the best thing to have. At least that would take the major money out of the game.
Cost, time, and the ability to have multiple maps make trackside dynos a little impractical.
now that i'm an old crippled guy there is an allure to ahrmadillo racing. no next nicky hayden althuogh there's doug polen . there seems to be a class for almost everybike in the garage except late model 4 cylinders.they have a trhimph spec class that seems to work. they also are a club and they have gone bankrupt before. they only have a few road races so it makes it an event. they also don't seem to mind riders spending thouands on there bikes. i've never raced wera and there classes seem confusing but that maybe because i haven't raced with them. what do they complain about? us? or the same problems we have. ive bought a few wera motors and their destroked 748s seem anything but cheap inside. i do think 5 years ago lightweight was for cheap guys and cripples but then a few guys with deep pockets and not enough nerve to ride a 200hp 1000 found the class fun. so now you have 50k bimotas. outlaw them and you will have 50k SVs. ten years ago how many sets of olins forks did you see? now everyones buying gas charged sets. i think its all sour grapes because chris boy is a ducati guy and not in to SVs lol. if it were'nt for him you guys would not be able to spell bimota. maybe you should outlaw ducati motocorse. how about do like disney have a class hopper pass pay 200$ and race every class you want. lightweight is hopeless kill it now and put it out of its misery
I think some of you pricks need to realize that there is a difference between being cheap and racing what a person can afford.
Quote from: MACOP1104 on January 03, 2011, 11:58:07 PM
I think some of you pricks need to realize that there is a difference between being cheap and racing what a person can afford.
You have every right to pay your entry and race what you can afford as long as it meets satety standards.
What the hell gives you the right to dictate that rules should be changed to make what you can afford as the leading equipment in the class ? The rules have been unchanged for 5+ years, now because you want to win more races our bikes should be come illegal? That just reduces YOUR competition, it doesn't increse the grids what-so-ever.
I'm not dictating shit. I'm stating my opinion on how I think the class should be set up. You don't like what I have to say, then don't read it. You guys love your big air cooled twins and that's fine. My opinion is that the lightweight class should have some concession for a racer that can buy a supersport legal lightwieght for a reasonable amount of money and have a level playing ground. I guess you could say ULWSB fills that need but you all think the SV is too much bike for that class. You wanna boot the SV out of ULWSB fine, but then you need to level the playing field in LW. I love supersport racing because it levels the playing field with riders on equal equipment. That's true for all classes except lightweight.
about 2004 is when they got the boot.
Most of us have already raced the antiques that you want to use as an excuse to boot out better machines. That was then, this is now. I think we're breaking a record this winter for whiney LW threads...and that says something.
Quote from: dylanfan53 on January 04, 2011, 10:27:22 PM
Most of us have already raced the antiques that you want to use as an excuse to boot out better machines. That was then, this is now. I think we're breaking a record this winter for whiney LW threads...and that says something.
I don't think you understand what I would like to see. Let me spell it out.
Aprilia cup bikes, Motards, EXs, HAwks, and FZR400s would be in a Sportsman class with SBK rules
Ninja 650, SV650, Duc800 in LWSS (also ULWSB but limited to SS rules)
air cooled 1000s 1100s 1200s allowed in LWSB
everything above allowed in LWGP, Thunderbike, GT Lights.
i listed the class limits, and of course you can raise up for additional classes.