Since I have 30 minutes to spare I'll see if I can make some sense out of a few thoughts I have.
Mostly this is in response to people doing track days because they're cheaper, how to get people racing, etc. But what I want to do is share my story to see if anyone has a similar experience, or may be able to use it in conversation with people sitting on the fence. As usual, I will be writing way too much here. Deal with it...
How I got to the track...
My first run on the track EVER was at a track day sponsored by Loudon Motorsports I think. It was in 99 and at Summit. I had a shiny new 99 CBR600F4.
The day was freaking fantastic. I had more fun than I could have imagined. It was there, that I met a racer who was spending the day practicing. I talked to him about what racing cost, etc. He had a small setup. Older bike, etc. It still seemed to be a huge expense.
Shortly thereafter, I moved to from WV (I lived like 3 miles from Summit Pt) to IA. I went from Shenandoah mountains to flat-straight-corn. It sucked. I wanted to find a track that I could run a few track days at, and in the process, ran into Bill Hitchcock and Brian Weber who ran CCS. I started running scenarios around racing and figured that if I bought an older bike for $2k, I could run a few races each year pretty cheap. Heck, with practice time, and running GT races I could get a LOT of track time for not much more than a track day cost. Plus, I was doing it on a dedicated race bike and not my street bike.
In all this, I the midst of this all, I ended up wadding up my F4 and that became my racebike.
When I first started racing, the BIG people actually had covered trailers, a generator and TIRE WARMERS!!! Imagine that, you were BIG TIME if you had warmers. Not 3-4 sets with digital controls, we're talking 1 set of half melted Tyr Sox.
People came in vans, in open trucks, packed lunches, drank beer. Nobody had "team shirts", nobody owned decking to make the paddock pavement pretty. But we raced... We had fun...
Somewhere along the line, we all seemed to get sucked in to the bigger/better/faster/more. And I'm not necessarily talking about bikes. While the $20k bike was a part of it (I've had a few of them), it also came in the form of suit dryers, custom canopies, team-wear, spare bikes, tire machines, 38' trailers, 40' RV's.
In my last few years, I traveled to the track with nearly a $200k setup. TWO-HUNDRED-THOUSAND DOLLARS... Many people don't have houses that cost that! I slept in the air conditioned comfort of an RV that cost me $9,000 more than the previous house I owned. I had new bikes. They were built professionally. I had the decking, I had the canopy, I had everything... I did greatly improve over the years, and I can justify every dime I spent (not that I need to), but in the end, how much of it was for the show?
As I look back on totals approaching half a million dollars spent over my racing career between myself, my sponsors and everyone else helping, I reflect on a fantastic journey and one which I will never forget. It was an incredible journey, complete with pictures, scars and friends all over the world; and a journey I will never regret one second of.
Yet I still go back to those simple and humble beginnings... Sleeping in a tent. Sleeping in a van. Sleeping in a GMC Jimmy. With a wife, 2 kids, 2 dogs all piled on top of each other. Freezing our ASSES off at Gateway when it was 15 degrees at night. Sweating to death at MAM when it was 8 million degrees with no shade. Running used tires. Running pump gas. Rubbing paint with guys like Bill Hitchcock, Brian Weber, Mike Chachare, Billy Casper, David Vaughn, K3, Rob Borowicz, on and on and on... Most all of us on bikes that we hoped would hold together, tires which had far too much wear and were only as warm as the ambient temperature of the day, pump gas, and leathers held together with duct tape.
We were cheap. We helped each other. None of us were setting the world on fire, but all of us had fun... And we did it on shoestring budgets.
The bullshit of not enough money is ridiculous. The sport costs as much as you put into it.
The bullshit of it's too dangerous is stupid. Life is calculated risk. Understand what you're dealing with before you make arbitrary decisions.
The bullshit of "I'm not fast enough" is just plain bullshit. I don't care how many track days you go through. Nothing can prepare you for a race except for a race. And your trackday laps won't mean crap when that green flag drops.
I got my race license because I wanted track time. I kept it because I became a racer...
Great post Jeff. It is a shame these days that people choose not to race or even track days because they don't have most of the things that you couldn't even get back when you started! I think I did my first track day in 2000 or 2001. I even rode my bike to the track! Now I am that guy with the enclosed trailer, generator, tire warmers, etc. There is something to be said for keeping it cheap...as it tends to keep it simple too!!
I"m still cheap.. after 5 yrs of racing I still do not own a generator, use a converted sailboat trailer, run tires a long time and spend money on the longer races. I only share hotel rooms when the overnight temp is below freezing or above 80F. Both my bikes run pump gas with SS motors because I'm not good enought to be able to justify built motors. I do spent money on good suspension and brakes. This is why I've been able to continue racing while being unemployed. Better to race a stock bike than have an expensive built one that has sucked up all your money....
Jeff, I have been thinking a lot about this as well after reading the threads about the HPT race cancellation, and the GP/MW regions future. I am passionate about the sport, and one of the highlights of my life was getting to race for quite a few years. I still love it and watch all the races(headed to Indy on Friday!), and do trackdays occassionally, but I don't ride hard. I decided I was done racing after the 2008 season. '07 and '08 both ended with injuries that put me out of commission for about 10 months combined. I had multiple surgeries that took over 3 months of this time, and some very painful rehabilitation. Physically, I'll never be 100%, but I'm close enough now that I'm ok with it. The biggest problem I had was with 2 pretty heavy concussions, and significant memory loss. To this day, I still struggle a bit with this and it is not cool. I was lucky that I was properly covered, so my family did not take a financial hit, but my family definitely sacrificied in other ways. When I talk to racers that have dependents, and find out they either have no coverage or minimal coverage because the tire budget is more important, it really makes me sick to my stomach. Life insurance and Medical insurance are just a start. You should also have disability insurance and long term care insurance. This all costs a lot, but if you need it and don't have it, you are in a world of trouble. Just my .02. Having said all this, racing kicks ass, just be sure you do it with both eyes wide open.
+1 for keeping it on the cheap!
I raced an 11 year old bike for the past 2 seasons. It broke alot and I worked on it alot. I was lucky enought to have great sponsorship this year though, which made maintaining the aging beast alot easier! I rant this season on two sets of tires. Yup, two. I rolled to the track in a beat up old cherokee, towing a Harbor Freight 4x8 foldable trailer. I slept in my jeep or in a tent. I brought MRE's to eat. I did splurge on a few beers though!
Sure, I wish I could have had the enclosed trailer, or an rv....or a bike that wasn't eligible for Vintage status, but I had FUN.
I think one thing to think about, in terms of TD vs. racing, is the competition mindset. Many people ride TD's because it isn't a race. Racing requires a winning attitude, and let's be honest- who here is racing to be last place??? None of us are. We are ALL out there to win. With this said- I think Jeff is right on the money with his post....the giant RV's, pit crews and endless $$$ some folks throw at club racing DOES INDEED keep certain people from the track. I know that it definitely keeps alot of AM's from bumping to EX. MAybe I'm way off base here, but I think its true. Now, I know someone will undoubtedly reply with, "There will always be one or two guys with more money than talent out there..." blah blah blah. Yes, that USED to be true. It used to be one or two guys. Now, with the economy in the shitter, the majority of regulars joes are getting out, and the guys with the high dollar programs are still out there gridding up. And I think there are WAY more of these high dollar programs nowadays.
I ran my first laps out at Firebird in AZ around 1994. I showed up to the track on a bone stock FZR 600 with a D&D slip on and some cheap ass race plastics. I RODE to the track with my rear stand slung over my back. No canopy, no warmers, no spares. Two piece leathersThere were no trackdays then. On Saturday, you learned the rules and got your license. On Sunday, they threw you to the wolves....and it rocked.
Trackdays do have a place in our world, but for most people, those laps at a track day satiates their need for speed, and they look at a race paddock and see all the $$$ tied up, and think, "I'll stick to the cheap TD, thank you very much."
Anywho, great post, Jeff. Hopefully we can weather this low grid storm. I'll see you guys and gals next year on my NEW 11 year old bike which I will still tow with my 14 year old jeep.
-Ski
Thanks for the thoughts Jeff. It was a good read and I can identify, although I am still using that concept today. I keep my budget low compared to many others that race. I race a select few races but I do it with support from contingency from Michelin. I manage my tires and expenses but racing is a luxury for me. Lat year I spent $700 in tires for the season out of my pocket. Yes I wasn't on Dunlops but yet i was on fresh tires that yielded me some wins.
Racing on the cheap can be accomplished just mostly in the Ultralight or lightweight classes.
Bring it out, let's race.
Mark
sweet write up! I spend more than some, less than others.. Here's to racing as long as we can!
After reading the replies, I'd like to follow up with the thought that if you're on the track without insurance (medical, life, disability), you really have no business doing such unless you have a few $M in the bank to cover yourself and your family when you get hurt. And if you're talking to anyone trying to convert them, I'd press insurance being as important as a helmet and leathers.
I guess in the end, my whole point was that while it does take money to race, it doesn't have to be what some people make it out to be. And if you're running multiple track days per year, the costs can be very comparable... Just my $.02...
well jeff it seems that actually my1st race weekend will end up being way more expensive than any other only because you have to factor in the cost of the school and then the cost of the license. my next race weekend is going to be way cheaper. i think the only thing i have on the upper hand is that i have full coverage insurance for me and my family through the army. if you try to jump right into it out of the blue and buy all the parts at once you end up looking like you forked out alot of money. it took me a year from the time i set my mind to do it to slowly piece things together using a few dollars out of each paycheck. buy race take offs here (thanks jason) to a chain there...etc.
it was way worth it. my next race will be waaaaaaaay cheaper.
I sold my camper, took the van to my first race this year. Did about 10 laps. Total cost $1000
Quote from: Jeff on August 26, 2010, 08:38:15 AM
After reading the replies, I'd like to follow up with the thought that if you're on the track without insurance (medical, life, disability), you really have no business doing such unless you have a few $M in the bank to cover yourself and your family when you get hurt.
That's the exact reason I'm not participating this season, no medical insurance once I left my job to start my own business. At this point with my business I could maybe come up with the money to make an event here or there, but I wouldn't have insurance so I don't even consider getting on the track.
In my opinion I think one of the greatest enemies to racers is CREDIT, I bet debt takes out more people than anything else. If everyone was paying for their racing expenses as they went along (which is what I've done since around 2000), and not using credit to do it, there would probably be more racers racing for longer because they would concentrate on paying for essentials to race - not the luxuries. I've personally been there, I fell very deeply into the depths of credit Hell from charging a combination of racing and other recreational sports expenses in the mid to late 90's. Trying to get out of that credit hole while continueing to race (and paying cash for it as I went along) was extremely challenging - but I did it by sacrificing tire costs which left me at the back of the pack the majority of the time, but I still had fun.
IMHO the expense just needs to be managed. If you use credit, make sure you can pay it off. I carried some debt into the off season for a few seasons but always managed to pay it off. And most of the time I stayed current on the expenses.
Early on I think it was Rosno who I was talking to that said that it seemed like most racers had a 2 year lifespan. Year 1 they get their feet wet in the amateur ranks. Year 2 they rack up $50k in debt to win an amateur championship. Then they fall off the face of the earth for 10 years trying to pay it off...
Me, I chose to run 3-5 races each weekend and run EVERY weekend vice running 14 races for 1-2 weekends per year.
great post jeff,+1 on the insurance. If I didnt have good health insurance when i had my accident last oct i would be buried in about 650,000 in medical bills. And yes you just have to learn how to do it on a budget. I would bring 1 set on new tires to a race weekend. I would run old tires for practice and a some what good set for the gt races and save my new ones for the sprints. then on the next weekend those would become my gt tires. I have run tires backwards if i had to. Also getting a traveling partner helps with cost also. not to mention if something does happen theres someone there to help take care of things.
Quote from: Jeff on August 26, 2010, 10:41:50 AM
Early on I think it was Rosno who I was talking to that said that it seemed like most racers had a 2 year lifespan. Year 1 they get their feet wet in the amateur ranks. Year 2 they rack up $50k in debt to win an amateur championship. Then they fall off the face of the earth for 10 years trying to pay it off...
Well, it was Kurt Hall that told me that the average road racer lasted 2 to 2.5 years. Kurt is well before most racer's time, I imagine, but he raced with the Human Race Team, his own program, Team Suzuki Endurance/Valvoline...racing the Methanol Monsters, etc. And he worked for WERA here and there.
The 2 to 2.5 year span has always been an issue, as I believe even KE has said the same thing.
Is credit an enemy? Nah, don't push the cart with that rope, responsibility with credit is the enemy.
I suppose that starting a long time ago makes a difference. I started with my street bike, a GSXR750. Fell over with it on the street, so it's stock exhaust got replaced with a V&H unit. That made it a Superbike in WERA classes. An aftermarket shock was more rare to me then even though the stock shocks weren't as good as the current ones. Tires cheaper? Yeah, but they were bias ply tires that didn't last forever either. Bodywork? Well, you used the stock stuff. I believe that the factory teams had the advantage then as they were using warranty stock bodywork for their bikes. I think that went on in the Honda camp into the early 90's. Erion/Two Brothers was an early adopter of aftermarket bodywork.
Tire warmers? Well, they really started to come out in 1993. I didn't have any in 1999 when I came back to 600's, and tire technology changed enough that they were necessary. I think things have moved away from that in that they aren't so sensitive to a lack of warmers.
I'm kind of with Steve on this. Bike and suspension. Tune that. Took me until 2004 to get some kind of thing to tune FI (never had a Power Commander myself). I've ran a lot of stock motors with great luck, but had back luck in 2006. I think the manufacturers have pumped themselves up a little bit in the 600 classes a bit much. Ti valves do die over time with expensive needs. How much does an 848 take to operate? Was supposed to be great, but I think it is expensive as how the 748's were early on.
Should be simple to start with a decent bike, get some front and rear springs, bodywork, safetywire, and then some new track day tires that don't need warmers and are durable and even useable if it rains. We used van's and rail trailers when we started. I used a van through 1999, and I would have continued along that way except that I went on with my school thing so that I could increase the "shelf life" of current racers, if they came to my school. Sometimes that worked, other times it didn't. Obviously, an SV is the shit for all of this with how easy it is to spec one out from aftermarket parts, swapping parts from other bikes, and leaving it pretty stock to do anything from a stock bored Supersport bike in UlSB through a big bore what ever making big power.
Or a 125GP bike... Or a vintage bike, but they aren't cheap...but they are forever.
There's a crossroads that can happen for some riders. They decide that they need the parts to go faster. Or that they have peaked on speed, but they still love the action, so the spending goes on into making life more comfortable. I went after a $3500 shuttle bus for economy (I saved $1800 my first year) rather than the new to newer dually and a toy hauler. Wasn't always pretty, and it wasn't always comfortable. It was practical. And that's what an individual that races for the long term has to be, practical. As an example, I'm always amazed how many pro flat trackers still run around in super length vans with their bikes...some bikes being $60k XR750's. In the end, it's practical.
Me, I chose to run 3-5 races each weekend and run EVERY weekend vice running 14 races for 1-2 weekends per year.
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Racing verse trackdays are no comparision. I can not have as much fun at a trackday as i do racing. We(the mcra) started the sportsman class a few years ago to get them riders that are not sure and have the Im not fast enough idea in there head. I would say 90% of them that have run sportsman end up running am gt and ccs sprints very shortly after. Once they get the rush of the race enviorment there hooked in and change there prospective. Biggest thing is to be smart about it, just because you start racing doesnt mean you have to have a 30,000 tied up in your bike. I have seen it alot lately were imediatley there droping $$$ on warmers,shocks,fancy suite,3 sets of wheels,trailers,ect. then that leaves no money for racing or anything else.I alway sudgest putting it together slowly and as you need it. You can do a race weekend for the same or just a little over a trackday if you are smart about it and will have a ton more fun and better memories. hell I ran stock suspension for 2 1/2 years before i even thought about upgrading. just freshened it up and changed oil wieghts and i was good with descent finishes, another good idea to pass on is to be selective about your races and what contingency pay outs are to help budget.
My biggest rant about cost is when it rains and there are certain riders would will not run in the rain but are registered for a race atleast come to the grid. there were several times last year that riders did not show to the grid a screwed the rest of the field out of $$$. If you dont want to run atleat show up to hot pit so the grid marshalls can check you off
I'll rephrase what I meant by credit being the enemy, because debt is definitely one of the major reasons people stop racing. If your starting a new race season, and you still have debt from your last race season(s), then your sinking. Unless that debt has no interest being charged, that debt's effects are also exponential. If your paying for your racing 'as you go' then it will limit how much you can spend on racing. That's why I switched to a 'pay cash as I go' route to racing, but doing that while I still had this massive amount of credit debt hanging over my head was very difficult and required me to cut back on racing costs. As I mentioned before, I chose to eliminate tire costs in order to keep racing, I literally (without exaggeration) have used each pair of race tires I bought over the last decade for 2 YEARS (or more). Also, I was running multiple classes during the entire Midwest schedule plus Daytona (sometimes spring and fall) on those tires, but of course I was always at the back of the pack as a result. The few times that I've bought tires in the last decade I've had the different tire guy's say the same thing everytime: "So you decided to switch back to our tires?". My response is always the same as well: "I never switched, these are still the same tires I bought from you 2+ years ago".
Some people are in situations that can get, or have the skills to acquire, sponsership and/or financial support much easier than others, for those who never have that support the bill is footed exclusively by their own paycheck. I've covered the entire cost for me to go racing since I took my licensing school in '95, the only 'support' I recieved was a discount on the bikes I bought and on the occasional parts I purchased from a specific dealership (which I appreciated). For those in situations like myself I think the possibility of credit debt is far greater than those who get support from whatever source. My suggesting to stay away from credit as much as possible is based on personal experience and seeing what's happened to others as well - take it for what it's worth. :thumb:
Quote from: gonecrazy on August 26, 2010, 07:38:23 PM
My biggest rant about cost is when it rains and there are certain riders would will not run in the rain but are registered for a race atleast come to the grid. there were several times last year that riders did not show to the grid a screwed the rest of the field out of $$$. If you dont want to run atleat show up to hot pit so the grid marshalls can check you off
Unless something changed, it doesn't quite work out that way. The (way it used to be and may still be) contingency sponsors get the FINISH results... And if you don't complete X number of laps (I think it's at least one), you don't even get counted for a DNF. So if 50 people showed up for the marshall but only 4 ran, the score sheet would have 4 bikes on it...
Quote from: Jeff on August 25, 2010, 04:05:41 PM
Rubbing paint with guys like Bill Hitchcock, Brian Weber, Mike Chachare, Billy Casper, David Vaughn, K3, Rob Borowicz, on and on and on... Most all of us on bikes that we hoped would hold together, tires which had far too much wear and were only as warm as the ambient temperature of the day, pump gas, and leathers held together with duct tape.
Jeff, I'm honored to be included in this post. That was indeed a magnificent era and you captured it well!
I'll add some thoughts which have been going through my own head lately. I raced Sunday at Blackhawk. It was the first time in several years that I'd done a club race, although I got a dream shot to ride Mid Illini Motorsports' bikes in AMA's MotoGT class last year. I've been pretty much a dedicated trackday coach since 2004, so I see both sides.
At a trackday, the only way you can lose is to wad your bike or get hurt. At a race, the only way to win is to beat everyone else. So what does that mean to the average racetrack rider?
Trackdays are huge fun. Find the group you fit into and go ride like you never legally could on the street. If others are faster, it really doesn't matter. The run-watcha brung format allows for plenty of excuses when you get passed. (He has a literbike, he has suspension, he has slicks, whatever...)
Racing. Hmmm.... It's all good when you start out. Just being involved is a complete rush! Back in the day, I ran in fields of 20, 30 or even more bikes. Pulling a 19th place on my lightweight bike in a middleweight field of 35 at Gateway after starting last was a huge accomplishment for me! Getting my first top ten in lightweight was equally incredible. Then I got wood. It was only a fifth place but that plaque reset the bar. From then on, no wood meant failure. It got worse. I wanted a championship. Within my limited means, I spent every second of my life outside work and every dollar I could scrounge on racing in pursuit of my goals. It turned into war. The joy of just being involved was replaced by the burning obsession of achieving success. I eventually obtained the race wins and championships I was after but the ordeal burned my soul to a crisp. In five years, I was emotionally finished. The jump to expert was especially hard on me. I lacked the funding to have a competitive setup and even if one had been provided to me, I just wasn't fast enough to be a winner if my bike carried a white plate. That more than anything else broke my heart and spirit.
Trackday coaching was medicine. I could help newcomers learn about the sport and ride as much as I could stand. I always did well in the impromptu "Instructor Derbys" that seem to occur toward the end of a weekend and that was enough to keep me happy. I thought I was cured. Then Mitch Stien offered me the MotoGT opportunity. HO LEE SHNIT! I was in no way ready for that! In the month I had before my first AMA race, I coached nothing but advanced and rode like my life depended on it. I found all I'd lost and more. When I got to MotoGT, I did not embarrass myself. It was a good feeling.
This year, I've coached a lot but spent part of each weekend riding for myself, working to keep my skills sharpened. This has been my fastest year. I've raced at Gateway and Blackhawk. No trophies but when I looked at the machines which beat mine, I saw 20K vs 4K and didn't feel too bad, especially when I looked at some of the very nice bikes that I managed to beat. Now I'm thinking that I need to run a few races each year in addition to the coaching, if only to remember who I am. The racer in me had been asleep for some time but now I feel it again. You know what? It feels good now!
Racing myself into spiritual ruin was not a good thing. At least I didn't let that be accompanied by financial ruin. The lesson I see from my own path is one of balance. When the sport stops being fun and becomes a holy crusade, it's time to back off or if you can't do that, quit.
Trackdays are awesome fun! They are not racing. The polite pass will eventually drive a racer crazy. When you race, any piece of asphalt you can get to first is yours. THAT is the most enjoyable aspect of competition. "Winning" a trackday is a hollow victory. Beating some other racer straight up for fifth place at a club race is far more satisfying. I'd forgotten that.
Some trackday riders will never have the necessary desire to make the jump to racing, just as some canyon riders will never take it to the track. If you have the desire, go racing. Do it on nickles and dimes if necessary but just do it. Try not to get sucked into the success vortex and just enjoy competition for the thrill it brings you. This is my goal for the future. I will not let another year go by without competing occasionally. I'll lose gracefully and savor my victory over those I've beaten. I won't let it consume me like it once did. Dammit! Racing is fun! I'm not going to lose sight of that again.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on August 27, 2010, 07:39:38 PMIt's all good when you start out. Just being involved is a complete rush! ... From then on, no wood meant failure. The joy of just being involved was replaced by the burning obsession of achieving success.
I just wasn't fast enough to be a winner if my bike carried a white plate. That more than anything else broke my heart and spirit.
Great write up Kris! 8)
I went from a fast amatuer who had a crappy day if I didn't podium, to a sloth of an expert, who had no fun. It was a futile attempt at every race. Disappointment and crumbling confidence everytime out.
Did track days for more than a few years after hanging it up, and came back this year.
Still one of the slowest on the grid, but I am now all right with that, and am finally having fun again out there. Modest investment, but still worth evey penny this year.
Great write up. After a 7 year break, I started racing again. I race within my means. I have a modest set up and I race lightweight. I pull my small enclosed trailer with my daily driver pick up. I have 2 bikes which cost me less then 8k combined. I use pump gas and bring all my food to the track and sleep in the trailer which has an AC unit. Still, racing is not cheap. A weekend costs me $500-$600 if I don't need tires. Add $360 to that if I need a set. Last year, I did nothing but track days to get back into it. My 1st race weekend this year made me realize nothing compares to gridding up to race...
yeah, the first time someone tries to take your front tire out in practice you realize this is not a track day lol.
Quote from: Ducmarc on August 29, 2010, 09:46:27 PM
yeah, the first time someone tries to take your front tire out in practice you realize this is not a track day lol.
You were watching Charlie?
Quote from: MACOP1104 on August 28, 2010, 08:00:29 AM
Great write up. After a 7 year break, I started racing again. I race within my means. I have a modest set up and I race lightweight. I pull my small enclosed trailer with my daily driver pick up. I have 2 bikes which cost me less then 8k combined. I use pump gas and bring all my food to the track and sleep in the trailer which has an AC unit. Still, racing is not cheap. A weekend costs me $500-$600 if I don't need tires. Add $360 to that if I need a set. Last year, I did nothing but track days to get back into it. My 1st race weekend this year made me realize nothing compares to gridding up to race...
That sounds like the way to go and familiar to my own racing program. I must say though you must be including everything like food and ice. I use race fuel only because the higher compression pistons require it. So, $185 for 2 races and practice all day on Saturday. $30 gate fee for the weekend. $70 for fuel. Right now about $200 average for tires placing second twice(thank you Michelin), $485 so far before food which I was gonna eat anyway. Travel expenses which I would have probably attended to watch. Room and board which I stay at home because I am close enough to the track, or $125 if I must drive to Jennings GP(6 hour drive).
Some things to consider: With the lightweight classes as light as they are, consider Continental tires that pay regardless of how many are on the grid. Finish top 5 and you get tire money. I like the Michelin brand allowing me resullts gaining me enough money each weekend out in Ultralight. Gt Lights I am outclassed when riding my Ducati 800.
Mark
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on August 27, 2010, 06:58:43 PM
Jeff, I'm honored to be included in this post. That was indeed a magnificent era and you captured it well!
Magnificent indeed... I'm just sorry there are so many who we shared it with that I left off and just don't remember. Guys like Ike, Sean Wyatt, Edgar Dorn, Anthony Connor. Hell, Andy Feursthaler(sp??) and I ran our amateur year together. I was there when Ortega came out onto BHF for the first time. Bastard stuffed me in 3D and I returned the favor in 6. And the latter years with Johnny Petta, Greg Langman, etc.
The list of riders I've shared pavement with is a mile long, and at that one level, we're brothers & a few sisters...
Good times man.... Good times...
i was thing about how to lower costs especially in lightweight how about a class index as much as i disliked it in drag racing that is probably what saved sportsman racing in the 70's if it were not for bracket racing the local level would be dead. i thoght 3 class levels all running on a track index except unlimited lightweight would be like 5 seconds under the record middleweight 2 seconds and unlimited no index . you could keep safety rules and throw out the rest of the rule book. you ride under the index on any lap and your DQ ed you still have to be first to finsh but be under the index. that way you enter anybike you want in any class . no crying on who's got what if you want to run a gixer 1000 in lightweight and you suck riding fine . if you think you can win in middleweight on an SV fine that way if you don't have to buy the latest bike on the planet to try and collect a cup. and if your a rising star witha pocket full of cash go unlimited or join the AMA we all cry about the it works now but no one wants to change anything. look at track days slow medium fast same thing. for differant races during the day change the amount of laps like 5 lap 10 lap15 lap . i we want to keep people riding make it to where you don't have to buy a 20k bimota and 3 sets of tires every weekend in lightweight just to win a cup.
Hey K3 Chris Onwiler.... nice writeup.
You should think about writing a book! :kicknuts:
Rick
Marc,
What are you thinking, $20K for a Bimota try $34K now that everyone wants one. The Bimota is good but I think your ebay special Ducati 748 is the way. It is what it is where some guys or gals have the money and maybe they need that bike. I found myself this past weekend keeping up pretty close to those guys with my Ducati 800.
That $50K SV built by Prieto would certainly give them a run for the money.
Me likey index racing idea! That could really work for a guy who rides well but is... um... BIG.
The index idea has some merit. Though would you find someone sandbagging that is capable of riding the same consistent lap time lap after lap? Also, if someone jams on the brakes at the line that could cause a whole heap of problems. It may be worth some investigating as it would help those without the means to buy the latest and greatest be competitive.
Or.....like I've been saying FOREVER - Power to Weight Ratio (PWR) classes. Have some classes with a minimum weight per Horsepower, for example there would be a minimum of 5 lbs per Hp in the class shown below:
combined bike & rider weight divided by rear wheel HP
375 lb bike + 125 lb rider = 500 lbs / 100 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
400 lb bike + 185 lb rider = 585 lbs / 117 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
425 lb bike + 250 lb rider = 675 lbs / 135 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
450 lb bike + 300 lb rider = 750 lbs / 150 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
Do that and your going to see a whole lot of competition and a bunch of new people finishing Top 3. Even with the PWR equalized amongst competitors the heavier riders would still be at a disadvantage due to less traction available in turns and longer braking distances, but it would still result in one Hell of a lot closer competition thru out the entire field than there is now. This would also give racers like K3 a chance at winning 'fair and square' due to his ability, not like it is now where even if everyone has the same tires winning can be very influenced by who has the lowest amount of weight per Hp. This would also give heavier racers who currently finish well a chance to show just how good they really are (they might even run away with wins once the playing field is leveled out).
Worried about cheating? These type of classes are about competing on a level playing field and would be on an honor system of stating your Rear Wheel Hp to tech - if you have to cheat in this class then it's obvious your not confident in your ability as a racer. If you want to prove to yourself that your a better racer than the competition, and that your not winning because you have a power to weight ratio advantage, this is where you race. No purse money in these classes (unless a dyno is available to confirm PWR), just plaques.
That's my idea. :thumb:
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 31, 2010, 11:23:52 AM
Or.....like I've been saying FOREVER - Power to Weight Ratio (PWR) classes. Have some classes with a minimum weight per Horsepower, for example there would be a minimum of 5 lbs per Hp in the class shown below:
combined bike & rider weight divided by rear wheel HP
375 lb bike + 125 lb rider = 500 lbs / 100 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
400 lb bike + 185 lb rider = 585 lbs / 117 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
425 lb bike + 250 lb rider = 675 lbs / 135 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
450 lb bike + 300 lb rider = 750 lbs / 150 Rear Wheel Hp = 5.00 lbs per Hp
Do that and your going to see a whole lot of competition and a bunch of new people finishing Top 3. Even with the PWR equalized amongst competitors the heavier riders would still be at a disadvantage due to less traction available in turns and longer braking distances, but it would still result in one Hell of a lot closer competition thru out the entire field than there is now. This would also give racers like K3 a chance at winning 'fair and square' due to his ability, not like it is now where even if everyone has the same tires winning can be very influenced by who has the lowest amount of weight per Hp. This would also give heavier racers who currently finish well a chance to show just how good they really are (they might even run away with wins once the playing field is leveled out).
Worried about cheating? These type of classes are about competing on a level playing field and would be on an honor system of stating your Rear Wheel Hp to tech - if you have to cheat in this class then it's obvious your not confident in your ability as a racer. If you want to prove to yourself that your a better racer than the competition, and that your not winning because you have a power to weight ratio advantage, this is where you race. No purse money in these classes (unless a dyno is available to confirm PWR), just plaques.
That's my idea. :thumb:
But I don't want to race a moped!
They got rid of the power to weight classes last year because it cost too much to haul around and run the dyno at races.
Quote from: Team Spalding on August 31, 2010, 03:33:47 PM
They got rid of the power to weight classes last year because it cost too much to haul around and run the dyno at races.
And that there are ways to have multiple maps in a system...
i was thinking maybe use it in lightweight as an basic class for slower , older or less funded riders could ride with older bikes rather than parting out a nice race bike on ebay it still could be competitive it might even help bike shops and aftermarketers with engine rebuilds and parts sales . it must suck to have a hole bin of of rear sets that fit an RC51 and no one to sell to. mashing the brake at the line is a problem and is illegal in bracket racing they use brake lights to watch for that. I'm not sure we could do that. we all know after practice about what we and everyone else is doing. and if you want to spend stupid money go unlimited but it would have to be a true lightweight index . not taking the fastest time from the last race .maybe average everyone in the class. could take one or to classes and try this like f40 or lightweight grand prix and see if it works. drag racers have 11.90 10.90 9.90 8.90 classes with 9.90 being the most popular since it doesn't take a million bucks to race it . i think we are going to be stuck with a sour economy with tight credit for several more years and if we can't find a we to keep cost down and more people riding the whole series may unravel
In a power-to-weight class, Billy Casper would be God. I'd do my best to keep him honest!
Quote from: majicMARKer on August 30, 2010, 09:35:13 PM
Marc,
What are you thinking, $20K for a Bimota try $34K now that everyone wants one. The Bimota is good but I think your ebay special Ducati 748 is the way. It is what it is where some guys or gals have the money and maybe they need that bike. I found myself this past weekend keeping up pretty close to those guys with my Ducati 800.
That $50K SV built by Prieto would certainly give them a run for the money.
you talking about the SV Mills and I ran? If so it was still less then a Bimota. It wasn't 50k in it. Bike was built from parts and majority cost was motor and radiator. We never had a mech dnf and it put out 98hp. The weekend I crashed it it was making 103hp. Rob Buroker bought it after my injury and ran it a few year without freshing it up before he blew it up.
Still waiting on the bimotas to catch my times from the SV. I think Edmunds or Kevin finally caught them at Homestead. I heard they ran 31 in June
It is the SV that I am speaking of. I am only going by what the mechanic at the time I took my FZR600 there to be tuned. My FZR600 produced the same horsepower on that dyno but the SV was much stronger especially right from the apex. In those years that Rob had the bike I was competing against him in the Thunderbike ranks as an amateur.
The Bimota is $34K to start before any mods.
I also had heard that Edmonds and Kevin were in the 31's but I didn't see it on the time sheets. Those times may be from Kevin's GPS.
i was looking for a way to slow down lap times and expense so the average yoke can stay in racing sure it will piss a few people off but i think it would narrow the disparity between the fastest and the slowest riders and keep from losing more riders of course we can not change anything and let it all go to pot.
For me to keep racing it's a matter of me keeping my old bikes and continue to run them. The option of purchasing new becomes too much for my racing budget which is what I think leads to many racers dropping out. Of course the mentality of most only settling for being at the front comes into play.
For me it has been quite a challenge to run on equipment and resources of very little. It was very satisfying running that ebay special Ducati 748 against the likes of the leading LW group. There was something to be said having a $700 bike bringing me half way through the 2008 Ultralight SB Championship which ultimately I won.
It's nice to have a place to run my old bikes. Not necessarily vintage but the ten year old stuff and not get too badly bruised.
Racing is what it is. If you have the money to afford the upgrades to run at the front then by all means I can't complain. If you want me to keep racing give me an incentive. I do it because I love it. I'm not the fastest guy out there but I do win some races.
Hi gang,
Just thought I would share my experience. I had NO interest in racing. I have raced cars and know it is not cheap to race, period. I wanted to ride fast and have fun. With a little encouragement from others, I got my license this year and can't wait for the next round.
I think track days need to be treated like a talent pool to recruited from so to speak. We need to encourage track riders to try the next level. We need to explain to them how much fun you can have without being the fasted.
One of the best things that has happened to me was having another rider I know comment on how he was comfortable riding near me cause he trusted my riding. I thought that was a great compliment and as good as a win.
We must stop huddling in our little racer groups and venture out into the squids and spread the word. :ahhh: