Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 25, 2010, 06:37:46 AM

Title: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 25, 2010, 06:37:46 AM
WHat the hell happened? BHF looked like a ghost town.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: alexm on July 25, 2010, 10:02:32 AM
Watching the Inception movie?
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 25, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
I thought the roasted corn was good.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: SV88 on July 25, 2010, 06:51:50 PM
I had to work in Watertown from 05:00 to 11 am then off to Gurnee/Libertyville to watch my youngest daughter's summer dance performance.  Made it to BHF in time for the 2nd practice, Pirelli qualifying & race.  Dead last but I did go faster than I've ever gone @ BHF - can't figure out that damn track....
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: KBOlsen on July 25, 2010, 10:25:51 PM
RAGBRAI.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mdr14 on July 25, 2010, 11:40:50 PM
dave rosno was 100% not there. I ate all the corn so there was none left for anyone else. no way he could have had any
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: IFMracing on July 26, 2010, 09:32:08 AM
I was there, wish I wouldn't have crashed yesterday though.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 26, 2010, 10:13:42 AM
+1 on that comment IFM...tho the bike looks better than I feel lol - gotta luv iboprofen.....
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: red900 on July 26, 2010, 10:34:51 AM
Couldnt have asked for better weather sunday
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: IFMracing on July 26, 2010, 10:47:44 AM
Dustin -
Thanks for the assistance this year.
For you to always take the time to listen and help with questions is greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately it looks like my season will be done.

Craig Davis
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: spyderchick on July 26, 2010, 12:36:47 PM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on July 26, 2010, 10:13:42 AM
+1 on that comment IFM...tho the bike looks better than I feel lol - gotta luv iboprofen.....

Say it ain't so!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: smoke54 on July 26, 2010, 01:00:09 PM
so sorry to hear that Craig.  what happened?  you ok?
tim
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: IFMracing on July 26, 2010, 03:00:12 PM
Yeah, I'm good. My hip and arse are bruised pretty good from sliding over that curbing also.

Here's a thread with pics of the bike: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/582924.html?1280170456
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2010, 04:44:41 PM
So did the girl that was with you get over the crash? She did not look very happy.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: IFMracing on July 26, 2010, 04:56:52 PM
Quote from: Jan on July 26, 2010, 04:44:41 PM
So did the girl that was with you get over the crash? She did not look very happy.

Yeah, I think she's ok.
That was the first real crash she has had to handle, and.....well, you saw how well that went.
I wonder if it was more the worry of what happened from when she realized I wasn't running to getting to me. (she was at turn 6)
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2010, 05:14:20 PM
That's good to hear. If you need a good exercise for the bruised hip and arse, lay the bike down on the pavement and pick it up a few times.. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: DanO966 on July 26, 2010, 05:26:35 PM
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 25, 2010, 06:37:46 AM
WHat the hell happened? BHF looked like a ghost town.

It was hands down the worst BHF turnout I've ever seen!  Don't say it was the weather....Heck I remember a couple of years ago.  We had pretty full grids on rainy/stormy weekends.  I remember back in '05 (the year Schnettler slid over the start/finish line trying to motor me to the finish line for the win) it was raining so hard a bunch of us questioned why CCS is letting us race...(that was sketchy) the grids were fuller then this weekend probably at least 2 or 3 x  more entires....

Track days are killing racing!!!!!! (the economy doesn't help either tho)   CCS, WERA etc...all need to find a way to market to the track day guy/gals.  We need to start filling the amateur/novice grids so they then become experts and so on.....
So quit telling your friends you're racing when you just doing a Nesba or STT or any trackday.  Come out and ROAD RACE so when you say you're racing you're really racing!!!!!! just my .02 cents!

We need some Obama-Bucks....where is the club racer stimulus ??   HAHA :lmao:

Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Mike829 on July 26, 2010, 05:42:31 PM
yeah, if Obama could just subsidize rear tires racing would be much simpler!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: jigs on July 26, 2010, 06:18:28 PM
Danny.....I'm with ya on that,back in the day,when there weren't many track day providers,racing was the only game in town.Yes I would like to see some converts from TD's to racing,and would suggest it any oppertunity I can.I've found that for quite a few,there is an intimidation factor,and the expense factor.Some of my friends say Wifie  poo,say nono to racing.I think you hit the nail on the head,and that's as racers,who want our sport to continue to grow and thive,we need to promote ourselfs.I each of us were to suggest trying racing to some track day riders,it could have some impact....I will keep it in mind,and do what I can for sure.Speking of track days,are you coming out to BHF on Sunday? I want you to ride the Bimmer,I'm curious to see what you can do on the stock bike,only thing I did to it is a 16 front sproket,hit a 13'4....like to see what you can do.Internals are next....great races yesterday by the way!!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Burt Munro on July 26, 2010, 09:15:29 PM
Quote from: jigs on July 26, 2010, 06:18:28 PM
   I want you to ride the Bimmer,I'm curious to see what you can do on the stock bike,only thing I did to it is a 16 front sproket,hit a 13'4....like to see what you can do.Internals are next....
Did I hear Ben right?  He went a second faster on your S1000 Friday than he's ever done on his R1?  Without any modifications and only minor adjustments on the suspension?
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 26, 2010, 11:00:42 PM
Quote from: DanO966 on July 26, 2010, 05:26:35 PMTrack days are killing racing!!!!!! (the economy doesn't help either tho)   CCS, WERA etc...all need to find a way to market to the track day guy/gals.  We need to start filling the amateur/novice grids so they then become experts and so on.....
So quit telling your friends you're racing when you just doing a Nesba or STT or any trackday.  Come out and ROAD RACE so when you say you're racing you're really racing!!!!!! just my .02 cents!

+1

I've been saying this FOREVER and agree 100%!!!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: benprobst on July 27, 2010, 10:49:43 AM
Quote from: Burt Munro on July 26, 2010, 09:15:29 PM
Did I hear Ben right?  He went a second faster on your S1000 Friday than he's ever done on his R1?  Without any modifications and only minor adjustments on the suspension?

I went a second faster than I went the same day on the R1 riding half as hard. I have still gone faster on the R1, but it was silly how fast I was able to get up to speed on a stock bike with tires I had never ridden.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: jigs on July 27, 2010, 11:23:07 AM
Yeah,bike is bone stock,other than plastic,rear sets,exhaust.I did finally go to a different front sprocket,one down from the 17 from the factory.Ben gave a tip on a minor click here,click there,backing out 2 clicks from the fork compression,which we had at 10,the max,and one out the shock,seemed to help a bit.I think 12's are right around the corner,which is good,for me anyway.I was just happy to run some 13's back to back and I really think ther's more for sure.As I stated,springs are next in front,at that pace we know know she's collapsing pretty good....so,the best is yet to come....I guess it's safe to say,BMW got it pretty damn right first go around with this machine.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 27, 2010, 02:53:12 PM
For Alexa - Ya I went down in the LW Supersport race...front tire got clipped setting up for a pass in turn 7 and over I went heh - good news is the Spyder stickers and 90% of the paintjob survived (lil tail section rash)...not suprising since the bike used me for a slider then decided it was goign to run away into the tall stuff lol

I'm a bit bruised is all - new helmet should be here tomorrow etc, have ti check out the front end on the sv but don't think anything got bent - brake lever and windscreen looks to be a bout it on that end
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 27, 2010, 03:44:38 PM
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 26, 2010, 11:00:42 PM
+1

I've been saying this FOREVER and agree 100%!!!
But then you'd see that all over. 

LRRS isn't as bad as what Blackhawk, Road America, Gateway, and HPT are seeing. 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: KTG on July 27, 2010, 04:26:24 PM
I believe our final total was 85 bikes?   Definitely the smallest turnout I've ever seen.  Something needs to be done   
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: gearhead on July 27, 2010, 05:22:52 PM
Yep, it was awfully lonely out on Buell Alley!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mx558 on July 28, 2010, 12:03:35 AM
I had to take this year off because of this great economy. I'm back riding mx for now, I can do a ride day for $20.00 and race for under $150, as opposed to to $1000.00 for a weekend of RR. Oh well maybe next year.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: dylanfan53 on July 28, 2010, 07:45:52 AM
20% + unemployment in the target audience group probably had something to do with it.  I'm out with vision issues that require surgery and recuperation.  Wish I could have been there.  See you (literally) next year!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Team Spalding on July 28, 2010, 08:27:04 AM
I was in New Jersey at the ASRA round. Hotter than shit there.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: spyderchick on July 28, 2010, 09:18:38 AM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on July 27, 2010, 02:53:12 PM
For Alexa - Ya I went down in the LW Supersport race...front tire got clipped setting up for a pass in turn 7 and over I went heh - good news is the Spyder stickers and 90% of the paintjob survived (lil tail section rash)...not suprising since the bike used me for a slider then decided it was goign to run away into the tall stuff lol

I'm a bit bruised is all - new helmet should be here tomorrow etc, have ti check out the front end on the sv but don't think anything got bent - brake lever and windscreen looks to be a bout it on that end

That's good. Glad you were able to save the bike by using your body.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: skiandclimb on July 28, 2010, 09:33:01 AM
I agree with track days being a player in low grids. Our local club here in St. Louis (MCRA) does a good job of generating racers though. We host our own series at our track days- The  MCRA Challenge series. The Sportsman's Race seems to continually generate new CCS riders, and in the past few years, we have seen the local road racer base grow nicely. The Challenge series grids have always been good, and with the addition of a $$$ paying purse sponsor this season- it has been even better.

I guess what I am saying is track days CAN generate new racers, but the organization hosting the TD needs to have a racing focus to it, otherwise folks just show up for the TD, ride then go home. Our club tries to encourage people to grid up...from the website, to the admin, to the CR's. Anywho, it's working for us.  Would be nice to see some other organizations do the same.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 28, 2010, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Super Dave on July 27, 2010, 03:44:38 PM
But then you'd see that all over. 

LRRS isn't as bad as what Blackhawk, Road America, Gateway, and HPT are seeing. 

I'd be really curious to hear what the turn-outs are like at track days at those same race tracks this season.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 28, 2010, 11:18:49 AM
I can speak to some of hte STT days at Autobahn, and Road America - they were sold out ahead of time, haven't checked in with Casper on the Motovid track days at BHF so don't know on that end or what Gateway/Topeka look like but at the couple midwest track day tracks...they've been full
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: HAWK on July 28, 2010, 11:27:35 AM
The problem isn't that trackdays exist but that the promoters don't enforce their own rules. All the trackday organizers specifically state that if you are caught racing your buddy you packup and go home but it is not enforced. Riding at a trackday and in a race are completely different and if someone is happy doing a trackday then they are probably not going to be happy in a real racing setting, conversely a racer is not going to be happy at a trackday. They are different disiplines and they both have their place. I think you need to look at the money issue for the current situation. I did not attend this past BHF but it was because I could not afford it and just for the record I have not done a trackday since May and only then to break in a new motor.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mx558 on July 28, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
I would rather race than do track days, track days seem like same risk and not much reward.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: agron4 on July 28, 2010, 05:34:16 PM
Taking photos, we have pretty accurate numbers. So...

Trackdays.  All riders including CR
NESBA @ Road America June 1-2 = 132 riders
Blackhawk Farms Trackday May 19th = 172 riders
Blackhawk Farms Trackday July 21st = 127

CCS + Learning Curves Weekends
Blackhawk Farms CCS May 23rd = 146 (not including team challenge)
Road America CCS/ASRA July 4th = 187 (not including team challenge)
Blackhawk Farms CCS July 25th = 88

So where's the best place to start to get more people interested in racing?

Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: RMGSXR124 on July 28, 2010, 07:06:55 PM
I started working on the old SV. Planning on a return to the track!
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: HAWK on July 28, 2010, 08:27:35 PM
I can't speak for the other classes but in lightweight I think the interest is pretty good. The grids the last couple years have been growing and the riders are sticking around. As has been mentioned, I think the biggest issue is money. I'm not suggesting that CCS is too expensive just that right now there are an awful lot of people hurting just trying to survive and there is not much left for play. Look around, racing isn't the only business hurting right now. I widh I could have been out last weekend but I can only afford so much and next month is more important with the auction. If I hit the lottery big I promise I'll help with the attendance problem. :cheers:
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: R1Racer99 on July 28, 2010, 09:31:09 PM
I've spent all my racing money buying engines and trying to get the bike to run this year so I've barely been out there, but even if I had the money, CCS is starting to seem like too much of a financial burden compared to CRA. The race fees are almost double which is hard to justify when I'm not making contingency anymore. I'm looking at just doing trackdays for a while and see if grid sizes come back and make racing worth it again. I don't want to spend a grand to ride around by myself or with a couple other guys who run the same pace. I love racing but I would rather ride all day and know that I'm not killing myself financially.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: ChitownNexus on July 28, 2010, 11:31:20 PM
Is running a race weekend so much more money than a trackday?  Both have insurance, same number of corner workers, track staff, etc. 

As an outsider looking in I do think the fees are pretty steep (I am a new track day rider). 

Race school is $200 which is $50 more than a track day at Blackhawk and you only run 3 times. I know it is a school, but I'm just referencing the actual track time.  CCS should work with track day organizations to somehow license people through track days.  The flags can't be any different at a race than a track day.  I honestly believe if I could pay $25 extra one track day and get a license for CCS I would race a few weekends. I am sure others would do so as well.

I looked at the race fees and those seem relatively steep too.  Seems like the cost has gone up, but the return has gone down.

I think I saw on WSMC they run a Novice Race Group.  Something where new riders have to run that class 3 times before entering other actually Novice classes.  Interesting concept to draw new riders in more slowly.

Anyway those are just my random thought from a guy who has lurked on this forum for years.  I rode back in 94-2001 before track days were big and even entered a SV 2 times in CCS just to get track time :)


Now if someone wants to trade me my 3007 GSXR600 for an SV I will race asap! :)
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: backMARKr on July 28, 2010, 11:54:12 PM
Quote from: skiandclimb on July 28, 2010, 09:33:01 AM
I agree with track days being a player in low grids. Our local club here in St. Louis (MCRA) does a good job of generating racers though. We host our own series at our track days- The  MCRA Challenge series. The Sportsman's Race seems to continually generate new CCS riders, and in the past few years, we have seen the local road racer base grow nicely. The Challenge series grids have always been good, and with the addition of a $$$ paying purse sponsor this season- it has been even better.

I guess what I am saying is track days CAN generate new racers, but the organization hosting the TD needs to have a racing focus to it, otherwise folks just show up for the TD, ride then go home. Our club tries to encourage people to grid up...from the website, to the admin, to the CR's. Anywho, it's working for us.  Would be nice to see some other organizations do the same.

Chris....gotta disagree with you on this. I will agree that MCRA has a decent turnout for the trackdays, but last couple years its been pretty clear that the majority of people that show for the trackday are pulling stumps at the end of the day on Saturday and not sticking around and racing Sunday. Not saying the effort or focus is not being made by MCRA, just that the return doesn't  appear to be there. Just my two cents.

I also have to agree with Paul that trackdays and race days are definitely apples and oranges. Went to the STT day at Putnam Saturday and while I was happy to get some seat time, I was underwhelmed with some of the "administrative" aspects of the day.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: JBraun on July 29, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
MRA has a stock class called "superstreet" that has brought in lots of new riders. Sort of a run-whatcha-brung deal. Minimal bike prep.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 29, 2010, 11:57:18 AM
Quote from: ChitownNexus on July 28, 2010, 11:31:20 PM
Is running a race weekend so much more money than a trackday?  Both have insurance, same number of corner workers, track staff, etc. 

Races have more cornerworkers than TD's (at BHF). TD's at BHF usually only staff 1 person per corner manned (T1, T3, T3a, T4, Main gate, T7) and I think one ambulance. Races usually have 2 workers (3 in the hot corners. T1, T3, T3a, Main gate, T7. If we have enough that show) and 3 ambulances.

Pretty sure race insurance is alot more than TD insurance since TD's are not supposed to be a competative event.

Seen pics of Chicago over the weekend and I was surprised anyone from 'Lake' Chicago made it. Only reason I'm not racing now is $$$. Honestly entry fees for CCS are a complete bargain compared to SCCA's. Was at SCCA june sprints talking with a racer there and his race was $450 and it wasnt even a top level class. Was talking with DanO at BHF and hell I didnt realise tire's got that damn expensive. 10 yrs ago it was $220/set, now he said some now are over $500 (w/tax).
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 29, 2010, 01:08:02 PM
Quote from: ChitownNexus on July 28, 2010, 11:31:20 PM
Is running a race weekend so much more money than a trackday?  Both have insurance, same number of corner workers, track staff, etc.
What Woof said...

And the insurance for competition is more expensive than it is for a "lapping" or "learning" day at the track, not to mention the premium date of a weekend. 

Some insurance providers look at trackdays as a learning opportunity and can cover the cost of a crash with your street bike. 

It is the difference between throwing bullets and shooting them. 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 29, 2010, 01:31:37 PM
How to get more individuals involved? 

I think it is complex, but there might be some issues that can be looked at.

I've advocated for a three tier system for some time.  I'm sure someone can pull up the thread here.  Plenty of riders that don't want to race as experts as they just race for the enjoyment.  There are new racers that are intimidated by ten year amateurs.  And the expert/pro field doesn't have much to shoot for.

Next, the cost of motorcycles has really continued to rise while, I feel, that reliability has gone down.  600's have gone from being below $7k in the 1990's, I'm generalizing, to reaching out to $10k.  Tires, depending upon what you're running, in that period have really stayed close to $300 to $380 a set.  Entry fees, which have gone up as a result of insurance and the need to rent race tracks on the ever more covetted weekend, have remained pretty stable for about ten years.  Travel costs for gas have swung around over the years, but are currently sitting about double what I paid per gallon back in the early 90's.  Not terrible, other than having gas well below $1 in 2001 and then over $4 in 2008. 

Ti valve replacement as regular maintanance?  $1200?  How many R6's of this 2006 and up generation have had cranks go bad?  I've heard of too many, not that everyone will experience it, thankfully. 

The thing that I have noticed since around the turn of the millenium has been the lack of younger riders getting into road racing.  Back when we raced on stone tires, although others raced on wood tires, it was common to have a bunch of twenty year old guys racing.  Someone that was actually 40 years old was uncommon often.  Somewhere, the young guy population started to get overpowered by the older demographic.  With that, I'll generalize again, the extraordinary will to RACE at twenty-two and you're learning how not crash while going fast compared trying to learn how to go fast at thirty-something and up while not getting outside your comfort zone or upsetting anyone.

Over the weekend a few of us talked about the small turn out at Blackhawk.  I brought up the new AMA thing.  As it is, there is a more attainable set of rules that has certainly changed the way one as an expert considering AMA competition.  If you've got $5k to blow on an important race weekend, would you do that at Blackhawk racing for a pittance of contingency or would you go to the big show?  For some of us, it would be a no brainer to do the big show.  Or even just save up money to go to a track that you and your friends think is "more cool".

Blackhawk Farms Raceway, like it or not, is a neat little track.  Jeremy McWilliams liked it, and he called it a "park track" as it was like some tracks he'd been to that were in a park.  It's a family friendly place, and, hey, Anna Maria's rocks.  It's been on CCS's schedule regularly and multiple times for a long time, and it was formerly on WERA's schedule for years too.  But, the terrible part, it has lacked any kind of media coverage.  There were local guys that would make a killing in Suzuki contingency years ago at Blackhawk, but no one would write about it.  Blame WERA and CCS for that.  You can only toot your horn so much.  Then there were the local Milwaukee guys that would to to Grattan and clean house.  They got written about!  People knew about Grattan and people knew about the guys that went fast there.  Those guys quit their jobs so they could work on their bikes and work out while the guys that did well at Blackhawk continued working so they could continue their racing program. 

When CCE bought CCS and FUSA, everyone was hoping that everything would change on this side of the promotions issue.  A few things happened, but it was still constrained that the individuals that volunteered to do the write ups eventually quit.  Getting results in a timely fashion was an issue.  (No Blackhawk results on the CCS page right now, as a matter of fact.)  And CCE put constraints upon it also. 

Discuss.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 29, 2010, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Super Dave on July 29, 2010, 01:31:37 PM
How to get more individuals involved?
I'll quote myself...

Some are missing the obvious issue too.

Getting more individuals involved is an awful business question.  It is also the most expensive one. 

When I expanded my schools to my independent program in 1999, I wanted to work with existing road racers.  Why?  It is the most important issue:  How do you keep the racers you have involved?  I struggled personally for years.  After being very obstinate and throwing a lot of time and money at things, I learned a few things or two that I could use to help other riders shortcut some issues.  Most leave after two or three years because of finances (look now as new riders think they need to have $800-$2500 cartridges for their forks in addition to their bike and tire expenses) or frustration. 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: HAWK on July 29, 2010, 02:20:38 PM
Dave, you've been at this much longer than I have so you have numbers to throw out there and they seem pretty good. I don't think that CCS fees are out of line, I do think CCS could learn something from WERA in terms of the SS classes. With a more black and white set of rules SS could become an affordable class for some of the guys on small budgets so they could be on a playing field that is at least reasonable.

Twenty-somethings... in todays economy just how much disposable income do these guys have?

2-3 year burnout... stricter rules that would keep costs reasonable would make the racing more about the rider than the budget. This is being done at the highest levels of motorsports the world over, just not at the club level. Granted enforcement would be an issue but if club racing is to survive then someone is going to have to get creative.

Cost containment is the answer, with as many classes as CCS has right now certainly several of them could be made more restrictive in terms of allowed modifications. Maaybe even look at claiming as an option.

Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on July 29, 2010, 02:33:53 PM
Dan Ortega originally wrote his comment earlier on his facebook page:

Here is what I reply on his page.

Yeah there is no shortage of "those" people. I'm not sure what to make of all this low attendance this season. There are many reasons as to the low grids that we could talk about.
All in all, it just sucks!
I'm not rich or have an easy life... to be able to run all those races. I've been road racing sparingly for the past 16 seasons. I have gained sponsorship through several companies this season of which have helped me support my season. I run all those races so I can make some money back to get me to the next event.
CCS is a little slow on getting me my payment from the last several rounds. I'm wondering if they are just short handed or just low on $$.

2nd Reply:
Another thing is when you have no hopes & dreams of making it to a factory ride because they don't exist anymore, its kind of hard to justify spending a college degree trying to get that factory ride.
When you have nothing to earn there is ...no point to work or try for it. So I believe people are just getting their kicks just riding at track days cause yes its cheaper and they can get off the street and get the thrill every once in awhile.
Bottom line is the manufactures are not going to pay contingency if the fans can't afford new bikes or accessories for their bikes anyways. Some how this economy has to turn around to where people can afford to buy bikes & accessories. We as racers are mearly rolling billboards for the manufactures. If the fans can't afford bikes & parts then we as racers are out of a job.
New riders won't come to races because there is nothing to earn from it. There is no chance of a reward for their hard work.
I can hold signs all day and advertise my products for the fans, the fans might think its all cool of what I can do on a bike but if they have desire and want but no money or job they can't purchase the products I'm advertising anyways.
So if you want to get racing and everything else in the country rolling again, its time to take a look at our failing government.
It's not just racing that I see falling apart, its also the street side of things too. I run a bike shop and I see it daily how people have want but no money.
All I know is, "THIS SHITS GOTTA CHANGE, IT'S TIME WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!"

3rd Reply

Race Tracks & Race Organizations need to run at a non profit for the next few years to bring the interest back into the sport again. If you keep charging more because less people are showing up your going to end up driving everyone away.
On...e of the problems I also see is that CCS pays insurance for a Racing organization without advertising for spectators so their insurance is cheaper. If they promoted or advertised the events their insurance would skyrocket which will also drive the cost up.
AMA at Road America was a joke this year too. Hardly any racers or fans.
We need to attract more fans to the races with cheaper gate fees and more exhibits to see? Fans love interacting with the racers. There needs to be more of that going on.
Once you get a fan to have a great time at a weekend of racing they will come back and bring friends with them next time. That's what we need.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 29, 2010, 02:44:10 PM
Thing is Dave if you want to be competitive, you need a good suspension, the electronics...etc - part of the truth I guess in todays age and that adds up to quite a bit in a hurry.  Some of that adds to the frustration and definitely affects the expense factor to club racing motorcycles.  if there was more of a financial incentive to race I think we would see larger grids and some younger folks but like all the rest of cycle racing...it's not that great right now.  I was suprised to see 8 on the starting grid for Amateur LW SS at BFR with 0 expert SS racers - the arguably most affordable racing class there is.

I'm around to have fun...I like the competition aspect, but a lot of track day riders are there just to have fun and don't care about competing and seven twenty minute session for $165ish beats the hell out of 8 laps for $105 (the rough equivalent CCS track time would run around $435 for 7 events and the gate fee for 2 days).  Part of this might just be finding ways to make the entry fees lower for a true novice racer say a rookie year class in some fashion to replace a nearly or dead existing class - might make it affordable for a bit more of hte track day crowd that thinks about racing to at least try it...might get a few of them hooked even....

Anyway, my random couple thoughts
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: HAWK on July 29, 2010, 03:52:16 PM
Whaty I was trying to say above is that SS has no coherant rules structure. While it should be the most affordable class LWSS is in fact the most expensive class to be competetive in at least here in the midwest. Ask Ed how much he had invested in his SS bike. He left the class in favor of Ultra Lightweight SB because there were no entries in SS. For years Ed has asked CCS to tighten the SS rules but they won't so he has built a bike to show the folly of the SS rules.

If you want to create an affordable class then pick one and establish a claiming rule. At any time a fellow competitor can "Claim" your bike for a preset price. If you know that someone can hand you say $3000 for your bike and you can't say no how much are you going to put into it. You can say no but you would lose all your points upto that point in the season. The fact is that CCS is really out of synd with the rest of the the racing world right now. Look at AMA, they have recently clamped down on allowable mods and are agressivly enforcing the rules to try and give the privateer a chance. F1, every year they add new rules to try and contain costs by limiting what the big boys with bottomless pockets can do. Your first line is VERY true but that is what is causing the problem, if a guy can't be competitive on his budget how long is he going to last. We can't control insurance or track rental but the rulebook can certainly do better at controlling the cost of the bikes.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on July 29, 2010, 05:48:13 PM
That's kinda what my rambling was referring to...that and trying to find an affordable way to get more folks into racing
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Mike829 on July 29, 2010, 08:39:02 PM
i wish we could have the SS classes just be bonestock motored bikes, not so much as an airfilter or TI exhaust slipon.  and no trac control or race gas.  just fairings, hand/foot controls, and suspension(internals and aftermarket shock)  I would love to run a 600, but these EX 600's making 130hp are ridiculous, last year my 750 was about as fast as purk's R6.  i love racing a 1000 this year, guys with 180hp superstock builds don't gain anything by the time they're done battling to keep the front down. 

sorry for the rant, i just wish club racing could be cheaper for most classes to be competitive and leave the $$$ in the GP classes.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 29, 2010, 08:40:33 PM
Quote from: twilkinson3 on July 29, 2010, 02:44:10 PM
Thing is Dave if you want to be competitive, you need a good suspension, the electronics...etc - part of the truth I guess in todays age and that adds up to quite a bit in a hurry.  Some of that adds to the frustration and definitely affects the expense factor to club racing motorcycles.  if there was more of a financial incentive to race I think we would see larger grids and some younger folks but like all the rest of cycle racing...it's not that great right now.  I was suprised to see 8 on the starting grid for Amateur LW SS at BFR with 0 expert SS racers - the arguably most affordable racing class there is.
Yes, good suspension.  But the cost of some of the exponential items only account to a BCH betterment of lap times.  Those are the exceptional cost items.  Get a bike, get THE CORRECT SPRINGS (and even some optional ones), tune the geometry and some dampening.  Throw tires at it.  This is the way to affordable racing. 

LW SS is a mess because it is such a singular class anymore because of the "weapons race" in the other lightweight classes.  It's not an attractive class so much anymore for "regular" racers. 

Quote from: twilkinson3 on July 29, 2010, 02:44:10 PM
I'm around to have fun...I like the competition aspect, but a lot of track day riders are there just to have fun and don't care about competing and seven twenty minute session for $165ish beats the hell out of 8 laps for $105 (the rough equivalent CCS track time would run around $435 for 7 events and the gate fee for 2 days).  Part of this might just be finding ways to make the entry fees lower for a true novice racer say a rookie year class in some fashion to replace a nearly or dead existing class - might make it affordable for a bit more of hte track day crowd that thinks about racing to at least try it...might get a few of them hooked even....
I have fun racing.  The trackday thing for me isn't racing, so it isn't fun.  Two five lap races with a couple of practice sessions working with my data is more fun for me, and more valuable, than a bunch of mindless sessions.  But, I am a competitor. 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 29, 2010, 08:50:57 PM
Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on July 29, 2010, 02:33:53 PM
Another thing is when you have no hopes & dreams of making it to a factory ride because they don't exist anymore, its kind of hard to justify spending a college degree trying to get that factory ride.
Yeah.  Even when there were a good number of factory rides, they were about impossible to get.  For me, I always looked at building my own program.  Investment in self is always valuable, even when there isn't necessarily a monetary reward. 

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on July 29, 2010, 02:33:53 PM
So if you want to get racing and everything else in the country rolling again, its time to take a look at our failing government.
It's not just racing that I see falling apart, its also the street side of things too. I run a bike shop and I see it daily how people have want but no money.
All I know is, "THIS SHITS GOTTA CHANGE, IT'S TIME WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!"
Hell, yeah!  It's beyond a political statement.  It's an issue of freedom. 

With more acts of force being placed on private health care, how long is it before it will be impossible for most of use to ever consider racing even as an irregular thing?  Then there is the claim of various "environmental impacts" that certainly could be linked to the stuff we do, but not to those that claim these impacts by man while utilizing various man made products to excess...  The passing of the Cap & Trade bill by the House of Representatives in June of 2009 was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge. 

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on July 29, 2010, 02:33:53 PMRace Tracks & Race Organizations need to run at a non profit for the next few years to bring the interest back into the sport again. If you keep charging more because less people are showing up your going to end up driving everyone away.
Sure, but they are going to be impacted by the government too.  Centralized planning and zoning issues continue to come up for race tracks.  They are private entities, thus, they are a target for many groups that have anti-man attitudes.  Don't forget the "papercut companies to death" attitudes of the legal system.  This impacts tracks and organizations too.  I think the insurance for CCS at Daytona is over $42,000 for those days CCS is there.  That was a quote I heard a few years ago, so it certainly could be more now.  At what point should Kevin Elliott decide that his investment makes more money in a simple interest bearing account at 1.5% versus breaking even or loosing money?  It's a hard place to be in. 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Ducmarc on July 29, 2010, 11:10:17 PM
i suppose there's a point where the wife tells you that we can't spend your unemployment check on tires to go racing. i think the economy is still emploading atleast in FLA 1000 laid off at NASA monday and wed winn dixie decides to close a bunch of stores    how do you justify spending any money even if you have some . everyone in business is trying to survive  how can you sponser someone especally in a race with no spectators. it used to be you stretched out you visa on tires and hotels then paid it off. now if you can pay it off they freeze your credit.  i was at the mega bike store they got brand new 08 600's they can't give them away. no credit .  even the crook donald trump was on tv complaining he has projects in the works but can't get backing   the whole thing stinks  so by the time i can afford to race again we will need F50   maybe CCS and WERA need to enter talks      or maybe the clintons can sponser us they got plenty    i'm going to bed 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mwsportsimaging on July 30, 2010, 12:47:09 AM
Is it possible we just have too damn many classes?
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mdr14 on July 30, 2010, 01:46:09 AM
So, How much is insurance at BHF for a CCS Weekend? How much more would the insurance premium be to promote to attract spectators?
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 30, 2010, 04:34:06 AM
One thing I do hear that keeps spectators from coming out is the $25 gate fee on saturday. Some people just want to come out sat and not sunday also. Really wish BHF would go back to teh single day charge like they did back in 2000ish. But of course a few people staying overnight sat and staying sunday without paying for sunday ruined that.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on July 30, 2010, 05:47:11 AM
Quote from: mdr14 on July 30, 2010, 01:46:09 AM
So, How much is insurance at BHF for a CCS Weekend? How much more would the insurance premium be to promote to attract spectators?
I'm not exactly sure on the cost.  CCS is buying in bulk as it is. 

I think the real question is this:  CCE did spend money on FUSA promotions.  How many people came to that?  Not many, really.  You've got to have personalities and teams to attract people.  You can see a GSXR with a bunch of decals almost anywhere.  Without team identities, attractive personalities, and a fun program, you're not gonna get much.  Sunday is long.  Compare that to a two and a half hour evening pro/am flat track program, a football game, or some other events. 

Unless you know people, club racing is hard to watch.  What do you think, Matt?
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mdr14 on July 30, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
This is what I think. I think that properly presented. 2-3 hours of prime class CCS MW region racing at Blackhawk Farms on a sunday can be fun to watch for a non hardcore casual spectator.

I think that those of us involved in our regional racing need to think out, around and on top of the box to generate revenue each weekend so that the racer is not taxed into oblivion and is not the sole source of income for the track and the sanctioning body.

I think that it is not 1993 any longer and that the racing community needs to be adaptable so that it can be healthy.
In 1993 at BHF, Sundays at BHF had a lot of spectators. Over the next few years, spectators were not properly managed. As a result spectator access was limited, consequently spectator attendance started to decline. Then coincidentally, racer attendance started to decline. Albeit gradual, but still decline.

Spectator access cant be limited, but some control needs to be applied so that racers and children are safe in the pits. All very easy to be proactive with. Just need some foresight to implement some guidelines.

At one time CCS MW was the strongest region. It can be again. But, a new approach needs to be applied.

I have a few plans I have been outlining. I need to meet with a potential business partner. I also need to discuss those ideas with Mr. Elliot. Money will always be the key. For all I know, it really might be too expensive to pursue anything above and beyond what we already have. Maybe CCS does not want any change, because change is bad.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Ducmarc on July 30, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
maybe practice and racing both days like practice morning then half racing so a spectator can come one day and watch racing no matter what day. most people won't or can't as in work one of the day's of the weekend and run tv ads  and do the blood and gore no one in the general public wants to see us fiddle dicking around lap after lap. do 30 seconds of crashes and all the kids will want to go. then shorten the tracks to around a mile so it's easier to see the whole race. like flattrack you see the whole race 2 turns and 2 drag races in each lap.   last march i could not believe the turnout it was packed.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: skiandclimb on July 31, 2010, 12:24:19 PM
FWIW, we had over 600 spectators at our first track day this season.  I attribute the turnout to two club sponsors- Cycle House Performance, and Big St. Charles Motorspots, both from st. Louis.  Both shops used their already existing radio ad accounts to promote local roadracing....we got a ton of spectators, and they got great airtime, and more folks spending money in their shops.
Another reaosn for the high spectator numbers is Gateway's spectator fee with our club is almost nothing- five whole bucks.  Some of these track entry fees are beyond ridiculous.  I am about as low-buck as it gets, so adding gas, tires, entries and then tagging another $50 bucks on top of it get really old, really fast.
I honestly would have raced more classes this year, but the entry fees were an issue, as was (is) CCS' inability to reclass older bikes. Yeah, I know- I'm whipping a dead horse here, but for me- it's the truth.
I think CCS would do well to drop entry fees to $50, period. None of this 85 for the first, 65 for the second crap. Just 50 bucks. I know I would race a lot more.  And if my poor ass would- I bet alot of others would too. I'm not saying the org. would "flourish" by doing so, but I don't think they'd lose any money. And grid sizes would increase, IMHO.  And let's face it- bigger grids = more contingency $$$ paid out in the long run....
Just sayin.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: gonecrazy on July 31, 2010, 01:28:10 PM
Ski if your gonna drop the sponsor names that support the club do them all. Our turn out isnt because of them 2 only even though they contribute just like all the others. One a side note we have produced alot more racers that are griding up the past few years. The last race weekend we probably lost 10-12 that crashed in saturday practice and couldnt get there bike back together. It was a crazy day for crashes and much higher than normal. we have even had spectors come back and start doing trackdays. we have a great spector turn out due to the low,cheap gate fee and its easier for someone to have there friends and family attend. We are consintly looking to make sure all riders get the best bang for the buck and have 100 plus riders every event for the last 2 years. After all it a addiction, the avarage racer only last 3-4 years. so we focus on getting them to the track and then into racing and it has been working well. I hope next years grids will be better expicially since ill be back and more of our friends and fellow racers find work or get finacially stable to come back out and play.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 02, 2010, 10:38:39 AM
I think what alot of people don't consider concerning riders being encouraged by Track Days to progress to Racing is the business side of that issue - most Track Days are intended to be 'For Profit', as is most Racing (even though it may not be in times like these). For Track Days to be encouraging their customers to step-up to Racing is bad business, that's revenue their pushing away. And even for those Track Days that are designated 'Not For Profit' there's still personal benefits they're recieving by putting on those events - writing off race tires, race fuel, transportation costs, transporters / trailers, accomodations, etc.

As far as the arguement about Track Days being for those who don't want to race, that represents a large portion of the participants, BUT..... I think Track Days can act as a 'passifier' for many of the remaining participants who previously may have gone racing prior to Track Days being available. Unfortunately many of those people end up falling into the seemingly never ending " I'm not fast enough to go racing yet " trap that's so common amongst many Track Day participants (I've heard that statement so many times, it's really sad).

That's my opinion.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: jr2racing on August 07, 2010, 10:11:55 AM
For me the economy has very little to do with it. I simply don't make enough money. Sure if the economy was roaring along I might get a raise here or there but still not enough to afford racing. I started out doing trackdays like many others but my competitive nature drew me to racing. I wanted better and better laptimes and knew that racing would deliver. I had heard about the 3yr. life span for the "average racer ". That's exactly how long I made it 1yr as an am and 2 yrs as an expert. I spent alot of money and would do it again. Motorcycle racing was the most enjoyable and rewarding thing I've ever done. But now it's just a memory while I try to chip away at a 5 digit credit card balance. I miss my friends and the track big time, but what am I going to do. People have said well why don't you just do 1 or 2 races a weekend that would be cheaper. Well for me I'm not sure that would be enough seat time for me to continue to improve. Once you get into the 13's you want 12's then 11's then 10's and so on. So for me, knowing 09 would be my last year I ran almost a complete season running approx. 6 races a weekend, trying do get better and better. So now just when I'm getting things figured out and going pretty good I have to throw in the towel. :wah: I'm envious of the guys that have the coin to race year after year but in the end I have no one to blame but me. It's not CCS fault that I make what I make. I'd love to think I could race again someday but the reality of it is it's not going to get any cheaper. Anyway that's my little poor me rant.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: mx558 on August 07, 2010, 12:06:06 PM
Well said Jason, for me it was more the economy taking a dump. I'm doing the motocross thing again and it's practically free. Shit it is less than 1/10 the cost. I spend $20 and can practice all day and not wear out a tire and I have just as much fun, that said I do like road racing a little better. I'll try to come back next year but who knows its kind of hard to justify the cost. Baldi's letting me ride his 1000 at a test and tune day so that will probably hook me in again. lol 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Expat2b on August 07, 2010, 03:41:25 PM
Lots of great thoughts and suggestions here.

My observations from corner working and taking photography at events in the East are consistent with Gron4's - attendance at motorcycle events all around in everything from track days, CCS racing, WERA racing and AMA Pro Racing are growing disturbingly low in recent years.

Earlier in the thread, J Farrell summed it up nicely, "Bottom line is the manufacturers are not going to pay contingency if the fans can't afford new bikes or accessories for their bikes anyways. Some how this economy has to turn around to where people can afford to buy bikes & accessories. We as racers are [merely] rolling billboards for the manufacturers. If the fans can't afford bikes & parts then we as racers are out of a job."

The entire ecosystem in which racing exists needs to be healthy in order to sustain the sport.  Not so easy in this day and age. In addition to the weakened economy, in the years prior to the downturn, the internet has disrupted the way that media and advertising works. It has fragmented consumers. Media buyers have been challenged to understand where to effectively spend their limited dollars.  Motorcycle racing is fast becoming victim to this 'perfect storm'. 

How do other industries cope?  When volumes drop and margins get thin, consolidation between players starts occurring. Think about airlines, or the beer industry.... if racing were beer, car racing would be the big commercial/commodity brands (Budweiser, Miller,etc) and motorcycle racing would be a fine microbrew with a discerning taste and intellectual consumers.  Once the big commercial beer brands became commoditized, they began to acquire and/or launch their own microbrew products to expand their portfolio. Larger players with big market share have deep pockets to sustain the ups and downs of the economy. 

Sound familiar?  Think what you may about the controversy and execution to date, but from a strategic standpoint, DMG's taking over AMA Pro Racing was a necessary move to save the sport in the US.  To get the ecosystem back on track they and other motorcycle industry leaders have their work cut out for them.  And so do you and I.

If you are not paying your own way to race, then you are working for someone else who needs you as a channel to advertise their product. It's not just about winning - it's how you differentiate yourself to get your sponsors exposure and attention. Being sponsored does not mean just putting a sticker on your bike or hanging a banner on your EZ-up and winning races. How many people have heard of Johnny Rock Page?  www.johnnyrockpage.net    Here is celebrity without winning. His gift is storytelling and being a unique character. You have a passion for racing, take the initiative and share it beyond this discussion board. Tell your story to a local newspaper reporter. Write a blog. Offer to bring your race bike to the local bike shop during a sales event and give a talk about what it takes and how fun it is to race.  Entertain disabled veterans (as Patriot Racing does at Summit Point). I don't race but I love the sport and want to do more to help. Lately I am taking fewer photos and have started to put my MBA to work writing sponsorship proposals.  In order to resurrect the sport's popularity, we all have to help others understand why they should care about racing. 

Will there be more consolidation? Probably.  How will the business of promotion and sponsorships change to increase audiences? If it follows the current trend, it will continue to get more specific.  This means more storytelling to educate and engage your discerning audiences.  TV is important but not the only channel. Every one of us has the potential to plant a seed in our communities today that will grow the sport back to a healthy, sustainable level. 

We all own the solution. The most important thing is to stop talking and start DOING, now.  What are you waiting for???

OK, next person can have the soap box...





Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: gonecrazy on August 08, 2010, 11:35:48 PM
and its eacing accross the board..everything from your local club racing to moto gp. moto gp grids are half the size of what they were say 4 years ago. the new moto2 class seems to be healthy grids but the rest are way down.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on August 08, 2010, 11:53:40 PM
Quote from: gonecrazy on August 08, 2010, 11:35:48 PM
and its eacing accross the board..everything from your local club racing to moto gp. moto gp grids are half the size of what they were say 4 years ago. the new moto2 class seems to be healthy grids but the rest are way down.

Even nascar is having problems filling the stands.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 09, 2010, 11:56:42 AM
Just noticed that this thread should be called Blackhawk & HPT. Did anybody take a look at the grids for Hearltand Park?
Nobody even entered the MWSS EX race. There was at most like 3-4 riders per race.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on August 09, 2010, 01:47:20 PM
Ok I'll take the soap box for a second....

I'm 38 (in a few days) and a successful Software Engineer...in other words I fund my own racing habit....The origins of motorcycle racing were based around what today isn't even a privateer club racing effort - some wrenchs, a few parts, a couple bucks, and a lot of time invested (that part hasn't changed) - you could be young and still afford to race fairly competitively....fast forward to today, a competitive 600 in amatuer is what at least 10k?  Add in the  race license, track time to practice and then the race fees themselves...how many 20 year olds have that kind of money?  Trace has to be by far the youngest guy on the grid at BFR and the only 20something in LW I think.  The current problem like the economy has it's roots farther back in time than just this recession, there is a lack - at least in the MW region - of younger racers showing up to replace the retirees.  So I see the big issue is how do we make this sport at the club level attainable financially to a wider group of people, second comes the how do we get them interested....

oh well my 2 min soap box/ramble...carry on (NEXT!!)
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on August 09, 2010, 02:14:20 PM
I see quite a few 20 somethings riding around on $20K+ bikes and $40K+ cars/trucks around here. Most just dont have a care to even go to a race much less compete. I'm seeing more and more stretched & lowered liter bikes on the street here (yet 90% probably will never set a tire on a drag strip either). Hell I'm looking into going back to racing open wheel cars.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: CCS on August 09, 2010, 04:43:20 PM
Just so you all have an idea exactly what we are dealing with and why entry fees are what they are.

For a 2 day event at regional track:
Track rent for the average weekend is $20k to $24k,
racing insurance (liability and participant accident) $7k,
2 ambulances $2.5k to $3.5k
Trophies $2k
corner workers $3k to $5k
staff $8k to $10k
Scoring system $1k
Average weekend Cost $42k to $50k

Average CCS entry is $65 per class
Takes 615 entries to break event
Current CCS average 515 entries

Today, CCS is a non-profit entity, just without tax-exempt status

I'm sure I've missed some smaller expenses like postage, printing, flags, radios, uniforms, computers, printers, paper, etc. and I did not add credential fees since most tracks split those in some way with us anyway.

Track days usually do not have the same insurance cost, weekday rent is lower, cornerworkers at 1 per corner are 1/2 of what we pay, only 4-6 people on staff, no trophies, no scoring system, 1 ambulance, etc., etc., that is why they can offer the time for $165 and the equivalent track time for racing is between $200 and $250

Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 09, 2010, 06:25:19 PM
Good deal pointing that out Kevin.
Many people do not understand the scope of running a racing organization.

I'm doing my best to get more people involved in the sport. We need to come up with some outside the box thinking. Times are tough but I know there are plenty of trackday riders & street riders in general who need to get more info on the sport of road racing.

Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 09, 2010, 06:46:34 PM
 :thumb:
Got 3 guys signing up for Learning Curves already!
Let see. If I could do that in a few hours...... How many in a week?
:boink:
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: HAWK on August 09, 2010, 09:39:37 PM
Kevin,

I never meant to imply that the cost to participate in CCS events was unreasonable. Only that it is more than many can afford right now. I have never felt that entry fees are too much, I just need to pace myself budget wise right now.

I would like to see the gate fees lowered though. It is really tough to get new people out to see what we do when you have to tell them that it's going to cost them $25 to get in and watch. I didn't mention this to people at first thinking that it is what it is but then after getting an earful from them I started to tell them what it was going to cost to get through the gate and nobody comes.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on August 09, 2010, 11:14:12 PM
Hawk does have a good point - maybe for 2011 we could see about working out a spectator day pass? Assuming we might be going back to 2 race days a weekend.  I've heard there were problems in the past but say a $10 a day spectator pass could be worked out with the track we might talk a few more iffy folks into coming to watch...which would lead to wanting to participate - just a thought
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: truckstop on August 10, 2010, 01:59:44 AM
X and I aren't racing this year because of health insurance issues which should be solved for next year. We're also broke partially because of his liter bike experiment.

Anyhoo... we haven't spectated at all this season partially because he's busy racing bicycles now, but also because $35 ($70 for the two of us) is kind of expensive to go hang out and torture ourselves because we can't race. I mean, we love you guys and miss our track friends like crazy, and $70 is a bargain compared to what a weekend costs to race, but it's hard to justify. (We'd come for just Sunday and pay less, but all the fun is Saturday nights.)

We'll see y'all for the Red Flag Fund Auction though. Can't miss that.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 10, 2010, 01:01:00 PM
I started a new business 2 years ago as this whole economic mess was starting to kick into gear, I knew even before that I would miss 2 or 3 seasons of racing as a result - so for me, not participating right now is not because of the economy but because I'm dumping everything I have into building my business. Many people may not know this, but tough times are the #1 time new businesses are started. Why? Because people find ways to do things better, cheaper, more efficiently, etc while many established businesses continue doing things as they always have (which can easily lead to their failure in tough times). My shop did not require a loan, we have a location which has great accessibility and proximity to a large extended population, we have low operating costs, and a great reputation for the work we do (the absolute majority of our new work comes thru referrals from customers we've already done work for).

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 09, 2010, 06:25:19 PMWe need to come up with some outside the box thinking. Times are tough but I know there are plenty of trackday riders & street riders in general who need to get more info on the sport of road racing.

The phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" comes to mind. We need more Track Day riders to realize it's not that difficult to make the jump to Racing. What if CCS started hosting Track Days the day before race weekends similar to what Track Addix did? Track Day rates for those without a race license could be priced competitive with other Track Day org's. Offer free or greatly discounted gate passes to that weekends races for non-racer participants of the Track Day (even to spectators of the Track Day). Also offer some free (or GREATLY reduced) race entries for those who are willing to try racing - for example 6 race entries for $100, enough races that they can get their head into what racing's all about. Possibly put a limit of 2 or 3 of these passes used per event so they will return for at least a 2nd or 3rd event (if they want to run more races on those weekends they could pay the current 3rd race class rate).

The day could be divided into 3 groups per hour :
Group 1 (licensed Expert Racers / Faster Amateur Racers & non-racers approved for the group)
Group 2 (intermediate paced licensed Racers & non-racers approved for the group)
Group 3 (new / slower / lesser experienced riders)

Advancement to a faster group comes from an evaluation of your riding ability by a control rider, once you get approved your status is upgraded thru registration for future events (but can also be lowered back if deemed necessary). Control Riders could be some of the Expert Racers who are already going to be there for the race event, for example they could get assigned a certain amount of sessions to control ride in exchange for free time on the track that day.

It's not like the current 'Racer Only' practice days are packed, this might be the little push those Track Day riders who are the fence about racing need to make the jump. As long as hosting something like this wasn't a loss economically it could potentially pay dividends thru adding new racers to CCS.

That's my 'outside the box' idea.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: ChitownNexus on August 10, 2010, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 09, 2010, 06:46:34 PM
:thumb:
Got 3 guys signing up for Learning Curves already!
Let see. If I could do that in a few hours...... How many in a week?
:boink:

Could LCR ever be any cheaper?  I know you get the "race license" included in the cost, but really shouldn't CCS licensing be cheaper?  Just wondering since you really are not learning to ride.  The time is more focused on learning the flags, rules, and regs of racing. 

Just wondering and my random thoughts.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Super Dave on August 10, 2010, 06:25:15 PM
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 10, 2010, 01:01:00 PMWhat if CCS started hosting Track Days the day before race weekends similar to what Track Addix did? Track Day rates for those without a race license could be priced competitive with other Track Day org's.
How did Trackaddix do?  How did CCS do with their trackday programs?  On the flip side, how is MCRA doing with that?


Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 10, 2010, 01:01:00 PM
It's not like the current 'Racer Only' practice days are packed, this might be the little push those Track Day riders who are the fence about racing need to make the jump. As long as hosting something like this wasn't a loss economically it could potentially pay dividends thru adding new racers to CCS.
The "racer only" practice days are actually racer only because the insurance required for those days is less because it is for those that hold a competition license compared to those that have no competition license.

The flip side is that any trackday rider could go to an approved school and get any kind of a motorcycle competition license and take advantage of those days rather than race.  Doesn't happen often, but it has and will continue to happen. 
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: twilkinson3 on August 10, 2010, 10:58:25 PM
So what if the price was hgiher (but not outrageous) if you weren't racing that weekend for the trackday, in other words if you prereg and add the track day the cost is x and the cost is y if you aren't racing

It's an interesting idea and if remotely feasible could possible create an additional revenue stream into CCS to defray some of the costs for running the racing org, if that in turn reduced the cost to enter (at some point) and made racing more accessible to folks with smaller budgets....win win - but that's probably an idealistic view..... probably missed a few gotchas
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: gonecrazy on August 10, 2010, 11:12:37 PM
Quote from: Super Dave on August 10, 2010, 06:25:15 PM
How did Trackaddix do?  How did CCS do with their trackday programs?  On the flip side, how is MCRA doing with that?


Dave we are(the MCRA) doing pretty good with it. biggest think is we have our own little challenge series with a sportsman race for entry level racers to get there feet wet and they are making the jump. 1. we figure out how to get them to the track 2. even if they spectate or are still unsure about getting on the track we offer the "test the track" program to help hook them into full trackdays.3. then from there we have the school which now learning curves is doing during our trackdays.4 after there school we sudgest the sportsman race or am gt races.(these guys come out and what to mix it up with there buddies and a regular trackday is no where for that)5. on into grid up in to amature races. Its kind of like a 5 step program and takes away the "im not fast enough to race" idea they have in there head. For me, I just cant get the same rush riding in a trackday as i do racing, so the money spent for racing is well worth it to me more so than a trackday.
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: Ducmarc on August 15, 2010, 05:21:59 PM
looks like the big expense for ccs is the track . and if things are that slow for all racing is the weekand time still that lucrative? i mean if we don't rent will anybody else? look at jennings what can you do with it hunt on it ? how about to cut cost practice on friday and race on sat. i'm sure ccs is under contract how iron clad that is i don't know, but there are tracks all over place do they have any leverage with them?    anyway as for new riders how about big discounts for the first time license and the first weekend . a while back i went cruzing through the archives and was amazed of how many riders with 500plus posts that we don't see anymore how do we bring them back? they don't even post anymore.   i  think i spent about 40k over the couple of years i raced maybe that's all i can set aside on a hobbie in my life time maybe not but the boss thinks so        next
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: roadracer162 on August 15, 2010, 07:16:32 PM
I don't think that racing has to cost a lot. I think it really is dependent on the bike of choice and also what classes to run. If grids are the marker most riders choose the middleweight stuff. Yes the lightweight stuff can be expensive but that really is that person's choice.

For the time that I have been racing I always shoot for a $5000 yearly budget. In 2009 my budget was blown to hell costing me $14K total. But the increase in cost was mainly due to the bike of choice. Tires cost me a total of $700 out of pocket for the year due to Bridgestone contingency. And of course riding a bike for free(Thanks Marc) helps the budget in the Thunderbike and LW F40 classes(I did buy some parts for the 748).

Mark
Title: Re: Where the hell was everybody yesterday? BHF
Post by: murf99 on September 06, 2010, 04:15:59 PM
I'm a 'converted' trackday junkie turned 'racer' - probably the target audience for club racing - so I thought I'd chime in here.

One can have a look at the paddock density during the August BHF CCS weekend, 'trackday' on Saturday, Racing on Sunday.... For those not present, there were about twice as many people Saturday (sold out) as Sunday.  I spoke with quite a few people that 'were just (there) for the trackday' - and sure enough, the space was vacant the next day.

I think there are three perceptions preventing trackday 'regulars' from griding up (yes, I subscribed to these at one point as well):

1 - Racers are crazy.  I have a job to return to on Monday, and don't want to get taken out by some 22 year old, that thinks he's the next Ben Spies, racing for a bowling trophy.

2 - Racing is too expensive, and I don't have the budget.

3 - I'm not fast enough to win.  Why go racing if I can't win?

I'm not sure the best way to fight these perceptions, but I figured I'd point them out - as recognition is the first step to recovery?

Funny thing is that, since I started racing in 2008, I can't tell you how many trackday regulars have come up to me and said 'I really want to try racing, but (insert one of the first 3 perceptions).'

Here are several disorgamized ideas, to get people involved:

A - When I got involved in car racing (autocross) in college, my first event was a 'Chicken Race' - an event only for people that have never competed before.  The event was a big hit, and enough to get me to the grid - so in my case a success as I became a regular participant.  Is there any way CCS could emulate this?  I understand motorcycle racing, at large, does this by subdividing each category into Amateur and Expert, but in many cases, front running Amateurs are hugely fast and, to trackday riders, quite intimidating.

B - Cost of racing is no new problem.  I do my best to save money where possible, but in the end I don't find racing a regional season significantly more expensive than doing a bunch of trackdays all over the country.  I think a lot of trackday riders think that racers spend a lot more money on their sport than they actually do? 

On that note, one of the most popular 4-wheel road racing categories is 'Spec Miata' - whereby racers are allowed the base car, plus 'specified' modifications...  In other words, a specific part number exhaust, a specific part number shock absorbers... etc.  I think this lends credence to the call for a 'street stock' category, allowing only basic modifications, and spec tires.

I can't really think of anything more to say here - and I can't think of a reasonable conclusion to my observations, so I guess I'll leave it at that.