CCS / ASRA Racing Forum

CCS / ASRA Racing Discussion => CCS / ASRA Racing Discussion => Topic started by: kam1996 on May 24, 2010, 07:41:17 am

Title: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: kam1996 on May 24, 2010, 07:41:17 am
First off, a big Hello to all.

I raced a 1996 Aprilia RS250 from 1997-2000 in the CCS/WERA series. Back then, the Aprilia RS250 was competitve in the hands of a decent rider. I am hoping to return to the track this year and have started looking for a race bike.
I find myself baised towards what I know, which is the RS250. My question is, how competitive will the RS250 be among the SV650s (both in SS trim)?

Thank you

Kamran
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: erock768 on May 24, 2010, 08:35:36 am
You're talking about the Aprilia RS 250 street/cup bike and not the RSV 250 GP bike, correct?
If you are contemplating the former ( RS 250 street/cup bike) I think you will find it uncompetitive against the SV650 and aircooled Ducatis and Buells of the light weight classes. There was a gentleman who raced his RS250 in the mid atlantic division, I think his name is Jason Zelibor, I've seen him on this board and maybe he can chime in here and give you a better picture than I can. 

For what its worth, I race my TZ250 GP bike against all those superbike SVs and Ducs in the Lightweight GP class and I'd have to say that a well built SV or Duc gives my little TZ a run for the money. Although I have never had one be able to pull me on a strait. With that in mind I can't see the Aprilia RS250 being competitive. Maybe in ultra light? If its elegible?
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: kam1996 on May 24, 2010, 09:10:41 am
Yes I was talking about the Aprilia Cup (street) bike.

On paper it doesnt seem that the RS250 will be so unmatched to the much heavier SV but the twins do have a huge torque advantage.

Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: erock768 on May 24, 2010, 10:05:02 am
I know what you mean. My opinion was based soley on my observation of the performance of these machines (RS 250) in races in which I was in. So, my opinion may be a little skewed. Whether it's competitive or not, I'm sure its a fun package to ride.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 24, 2010, 10:14:47 am
My opinion is also based on real life observations also. The RS250 can be competitive with the right rider and depending on the track. The more flowing tracks seeem to benefit the bikes with lower overall weight which the RS has over the SS Sv.

The RS250 is legal in Ultralight and is competitive against the SS SV and the Ducati 800 which are both legal for ULWSB. The lighter rider is more suited towards the RS, the heavier rider is probably better on an SV.

On another note there is a performance group overseas that will modify the RS to give some 130hp that has my mind reeling at the possibilities. Personally I like running something different than the mass and get great satisfaction doing it.

Mark
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: erock768 on May 24, 2010, 10:42:09 am
Quote
On another note there is a performance group overseas that will modify the RS to give some 130hp that has my mind reeling at the possibilities. Personally I like running something different than the mass and get great satisfaction doing it.
+1

I forget the name of the company, they are based in Australia. And it is to my understanding that they do not "modify" the RS250, but rather they have developed an entirely new engine that bolts right into the RS250 chassis. I beleive they are selling complete bikes as well as retrofitting customer RS 250's. If I am recalling correcly, the engine is a 500 cc parallel twin, similar in layout to an RZ350 with reed valve induction, power valves and dual 44mm Keihin FCR carbs.....and yes, it makes a claimed 130 HP at the real wheel. Probably the closest to a 500GP bike we could get.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: kam1996 on May 24, 2010, 10:54:36 am
Wish my wallet could afford a 130hp Aprilia.

I am already contemplating if buying spares and repairing crash damage will be far more expensive when compared to the SV.

I want to get the RS250 because that what I am /was familiar with back in the day, but since my street bike for the last 5 years has been a 998, I am guessing racing an SV might not be such a bad thing.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 24, 2010, 12:15:16 pm
You are correct. $22K for a complete bike, or $14K for the motor and all assorted bits to build your own. Just 120-130hp, 115kg wet weight in a RS250 chassis. It is still cheaper than starting with a Bimota.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: antirich on May 24, 2010, 12:18:03 pm
Yea, there's no way a Suzuki RGV engine will last one lap with more than 90HP, it just doesn't have the strength to stand the revs. Actually, anything over 75 is grenade material without a weekly rebuild.

I had one for three years. Fun track bike, but man, pulling off of turns was an issue. A typical SV will slow you down in the turns, but will totally out gun an RS coming out of the turn. Unless you get the holeshot and clear track, you'll always be chasing them.

TZ250s are much lighter and powerful. If they're having problems with SVs, then the RS doesn't have much hope :-(

There was a guy at Mid-Ohio who shoe-horned an RGV500 gama engine into an RGV250. Very cool looking bike, but even that didn't have the power that you'd expect. Probably too much of a liability to ride it hard.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: antirich on May 24, 2010, 12:20:53 pm
In terms of crash parts, the RS250 crashes very well. Very few critical parts are exposed, and the frame is 'strong as bull'

Spares are getting tougher to find. Check out apriliaforum.com for the latest.

Oh, and grab onto a new crank if you find one. I had my motor go boom one spring, and it took over 6 months to locate a new one. I have a feeling that Suzuki will (or has) stopped production on engine parts, considering the age and current economy.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: SoudersD on May 25, 2010, 01:39:36 pm
FWIW, I came out of the final turn at NJMP Thunderbolt in 6th gear (stock 15/44 gearing), closing slightly on a TZ250. I pulled a tight exit and got along side him on the inside, and our speeds matched as he hit 6th gear, right where the exit curb ended. We went down the whole straight side by side until I outbraked him into T1.

I'm not sure how big he was. I'm 5'7", 135 lbs. My motor is stock, only power mod is a full M4 system. Stock ECU, no PCIII.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: George_Linhart on May 25, 2010, 02:59:29 pm
In theory a well riden  and well prepared 250 GP bike will be faster than a MW class bike.  Look at the old 250 GP lap times compared to either WSS or the new Moto2 format.  From personal experience, I've personally had my @$$ handed to me by a kid on a 125 GP bike at Road America when I was on a very built Ducauti 1000SS.  As long as he carried speed out of the corners the acceleration advantage of my big twin just couldn't overcome the lead that he could build up. I would aolso point out, if you go through the records, anytime that they combined CCS with the GRPU weekend  the LWGP and GT lights class gets dominated by the 2 strokes.

I think that the reality is that at outside of GPRU not many club riders maintain a top-level 2 stroke program and frankly these bikes don't get ridden to the maximum capability of the machine.  Obviously the de-tuned Aprillia 250 cup bikes will be slower than the pure 250 GP bikes; but I don't know specifically how much that would slow that bike down.

Ultimatly, I don't mind having them in the LW classes; but, I do think it takes a good rider who knows how to carry a lot of speed through the corners to be succesfull.

George
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 25, 2010, 07:03:45 pm
The Aprillia RS250 streetbike is no GP monster but I love them anyway. I almost bought one to preserve my points lead in Ultralight in 2008. I bought a Ducati 800 instead and pimped it out. The Aprillia has about 60hp and a 250GP will have around 80. Of course a well ridden bike can go a long way. My conclusion based on observations of others is that the Aprillia is about on par with most 125GP bikes.

Mark
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: Ducmarc on May 25, 2010, 08:35:59 pm
go to www.gpcustoms.com markie browns sight if you want odd 2 stroke power  he's big into gamma's  he was a super rider and is building some gaint 2 stroke plus he has a tz 750 sidecar motor he's talking about shoehorning something.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: antirich on May 26, 2010, 02:45:38 pm
The real 250 GP bikes, especially the $1M/year factory bikes, are over 110 Rear Wheel HP and have a minimum 220lb. weight rule. The Customer Aprilia 250s were about 20% down on power vs. the factory.

I believe the  Hondas and Yamaha's make around 80HP safely. I say safely, cause there's always ways to make more, but the engine becomes disposable. I'm sure Ayoama's last Honda 250 was over the 100 HP mark, for he held is own against the Aprilias.


Quite a difference from the 320lb, 55Hp RS250.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: kam1996 on May 26, 2010, 04:36:35 pm



Quite a difference from the 320lb, 55Hp RS250.

Not to nit-pick, but my 1996 RS250 "street" converted to race was a hair over 313 pounds and Dynd at 63.8 hp bone stock.
At the same dyno my 1993 CBRf2 was dyno'd at 87 hp and my 1998 R1 at 127 hp. So its fair to say that the dyno wasnt that much off the mark.
I hear that the "Cup" RS250 is the same weight if not lighter than the street RS250 and has 5 more hp per Aprilia USA release (I remember reading it back in 2000)

That said, on paper, a 300 lb bike with at least 60 hp and correct gearing for the track should be easily be able to hang with an almost 380 lb SV in stock (supersport) trim. Thats on paper, and thats why I wondered if in real life, things were different.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 26, 2010, 04:45:21 pm
So the conclusion is, if we can all agree, the Aprilia RS250 street or cup bike can hang with the SV Supersports with the right rider.

The Aprilia doesn't have the torque of the V-twin which may handicap the heavier rider that miss the correct rpm for a particular corner.

The 250 GP bike in any brand is far superior than any lightweight Supersport.

So the answer is still yes the aprilia can be competitive against the SV in Supersport trim.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: apriliaman on May 26, 2010, 09:57:58 pm
That bike can be fast. if a very fast rider rides it.I rode one before on a track day.I never seen one that was super fast before.When i was racing my fzr 400 410 lbs with a full tank and 63 hp.I ve raced against some of those bike and on the straights my fzr and the rs 250 were the same.I cant brake as hard or turn as good  as that bike.And my fzr has the same speed on the straights as a 125gp.So overall a 125 gp is faster cause it is half the weight then the rs 250.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: Gino230 on May 27, 2010, 01:06:32 am
I owned an Aprillia RS 250 and raced it in LW for a few seasons. Awesome chassis, light weight, great brakes. Engine not too peaky for a two stroke, crashes really well, too. The SV came out the next year and I started getting killed by guys parking it and then leaving me coming off corners. The RS is more like a 125 than a GP 250, it's really fun to ride but like someone said above, it depends on your track. All of the S. Florida tracks are point and shoot with pretty good size straights, you are going to have to be WAY fast to win at one of those tracks vs an SV or 800 Ducati. There is a reason nobody is riding them in LW.

Of course I'm not saying it can't be done, we all know a fast rider on a slow bike will beat a slow rider on a great bike- I guess it depends how competitive you plan to be and how much your heart is set on riding the 250- If you're not determined to win and just want to have fun, get the bike that is the most fun for you to ride. I loved the little Aprillia, but I liked being competitive better, so I got a 750 Ducati.

Why not just get an SV? Plentiful, cheap, competitive, and great fun to ride?

Whatever you pick, good luck and welcome back to the sport.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: mwsportsimaging on May 27, 2010, 02:44:59 am
I think it comes down to this. If you want to beat me, no problem. If you want to beat Ed Key, good luck!
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: SoudersD on May 28, 2010, 09:31:56 am
It should be noted that if you're short, the SV650 will stretch you out more than a 600, at least with clip-ons. I'm 5'7" and I often have trouble getting my upper body off the bike due to the way I'm stretched out.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: apriliaman on May 28, 2010, 08:43:52 pm
So that means that bike these day's it is better to be a track day bike and you if you dont care about lap tmes its good just have fun.Thats the same as my fzr 400,too slow to race now but still fun to ride for fun with out racing.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: Ducmarc on May 29, 2010, 08:05:25 am
maybe there's a spot somewhere in AHRMADILLO racing for it. or do like i do and get a hired gun to make it go fast
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: roadracer162 on May 29, 2010, 12:29:03 pm
Marc M.-Is Barrett riding for you now?

Mark E.- There is always the Florida Vintage Series of CCS where the FZR400 is now legal for Medium-weight. Troy did race his in the Premium class and did fairly well but of course that is Jennings where corner speed is king.

Dave S.- I can see where your 06 SV would give you problems with the tank. The 1st gen doesn't have the problems with the tank or rech to the bars-at least that is my impression. On another note the Ducati SS is definately worse than the SV as far as reach.

The Aprilia is a great bike and a great ride. it offers something different than the norm, but if it is convenient, low cost racing or riding then the SV is hard to beat. I wanted something different and at the time the Ducati 800 was the class leading bike in 2008.

Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: Ducmarc on May 30, 2010, 12:25:25 pm
i can't get barrett to even look at my bike much less sit on it   you know how those ama guys are   lol  i figured i'd get  my old chinese fart to ride again. i'll pay him in fortune cookies.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: kam1996 on June 02, 2010, 09:05:52 am
Well looks like that the battle between lust and logic was won by lust.

I was almost sure that the SV would be a more logical, more relaible and cost effective choice, but I found this 2004 Cup bike that has never been tracked or raced and couldn't pass it up. Has just under 450 miles total. Its not running perfect because it needs some re-jetting (from sitting  in storage for a long time)

I am looking for a 2 stroke tunning expert (pref near Raleigh NC) so please PM me if you know of one.

(http://www.pbase.com/kam1996/image/125149949.jpg)
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: roadracer162 on June 02, 2010, 11:39:26 am
That is a beautiful machine. Now I am lusting, I'd better not let Nancy see me looking at this.
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: Ducmarc on June 02, 2010, 09:08:18 pm
that's nice you sure you want to race it?
Title: Re: How competitive will the Aprilia RS250 be against the Sv650?
Post by: kam1996 on June 02, 2010, 09:15:01 pm
Some swingarm porn:

(http://www.pbase.com/kam1996/image/125028069.jpg)