I was looking for the reason why this class was revised. I guess somebody must have entered a 40K Ducati 800DS or something to disrupt what may possibly have been the new home for SV's. I don't race this class so maybe someone can share some insight.
Catering to the largest grouping of the SV? The 1000 is the DS and the 800 is a SS. DS the designation I believe for dual spark, the 800 does not. I guess they wanted to fix the Ultralight class. I think they made a mistake with allwoing the SV or the 800SS for that matter. I believe they should have left it alone and allowed the GS500 to have it's day. My FZR400 ran pretty good there too.
The lightweight should have been up to the 900+ mark and not the 1000+ bikes. That way you could see the Buell XB9 and Ducati 900 do their thing along with the SV. Where would the Ducati 1000 play? What about a Welterweight class.
I don't have any insight but just speculation. Now we will have that $50K SV.
Mark
Crap! Here we go again!!
I'll summarize the subject: Highly exagerated hp claims for the 1000ds and XB-12R prompted whiney SV'ers to complained their way down to the slowest CCS racing class... thereby displacing two generations worth of antiquated machinery.
Are the Ducati and Buell really superior? With the right rider and the right chassis re-tune they certainly can be, but for the average talent rider I still think the SV is a better racing package.
too bad there isn't enough interest in making a vintage lightweight class for those displaced machines..
are teh 125's still competitive somewhere? what about an fzr400? it's sad to think about.
Along with my poor little Hawk GT. :)
Quote from: mattg on December 18, 2009, 11:55:49 AM
too bad there isn't enough interest in making a vintage lightweight class for those displaced machines..
are teh 125's still competitive somewhere? what about an fzr400? it's sad to think about.
Hopefully there will be. Working on an idea with Mike Perry for an updated vintage class. 3 events per year, up front committments by eligible riders and a "William's Cup" at the end. Premier class, meduium weight and lightweight classes. The pre 1990 125 will be lightweight and the FZR400 in lightweight.
More to come...
Mark
i still got my fzr 400,i have tags and ride it on the street now.I got upto 61 mpg riding at the blue ridge parkway taken it easy. If there would be a class for the old bikes it would be fun.Doesnt matter how hard i push my fzr it is still an avg 6 sec a lap on most tracks slower then my SV.
hey you spilled the beans on my secret weapon he he he he
Ooops. The FZR400 is medium weight. it will be fun to run with the FZR400 but I will probably go for the premier class and try for that inaugural "William's Cup".
Mark-I must say that I am much closer in time onboard the FZR as compared to the Duc 800. At Jennings the FZR and me have a best lap of 1:26.6 and the Duc at 1:24.0. At Moroso the FZR does a 1:34+/- and the Duc a 1:26.2-I know the track a lot better now while on the Duc. At Homestead my best aboard the FZR is 1:43 and the Duc is a 1:37.0.
Oh by the way Mark-bring the FZR to Jennings 'cause it will probably be the first vintage race(fingers crossed)
Mark
have to work in palm beach tomorrow hope to get it done in one day and go back that evening. if i have to stay over i'll give you a call
That will be fine.
i could bring it but i dont have room in my 8ft bed for 3 bikes unless somone wants to bring it for me.
Leave the SV and run the FZR
Quote from: skidMARK on December 18, 2009, 07:14:43 AM
I don't have any insight but just speculation. Now we will have that $50K SV.
Mark
$50k SV that would be 1 insane bike I hope
Quote from: ScubaSteve on December 21, 2009, 12:13:39 PM
$50k SV that would be 1 insane bike I hope
Do you remember Ed Key? He still has and races several 50K SV's.They are professionally built and maintained
where Ed has dominated for several years now. Quite the investment and dedication to be at the top.
Quote from: redlinepilot on December 22, 2009, 12:17:19 AM
Do you remember Ed Key? He still has and races several 50K SV's.They are professionally built and maintained
where Ed has dominated for several years now. Quite the investment and dedication to be at the top.
Yes Steve I know Ed very well. Raced him a few times. I dont think he has 50k in them though. When I raced Mills SV superbike I think at most Mills had 25k in it and it put out the same HP as Ed. Not many people can say they built a 100 hp SV and made it last a full year which we accomplished.
Quote from: 123user on December 18, 2009, 09:10:13 AM
Crap! Here we go again!!
I'll summarize the subject: Highly exagerated hp claims for the 1000ds and XB-12R prompted whiney SV'ers to complained their way down to the slowest CCS racing class... thereby displacing two generations worth of antiquated machinery.
Are the Ducati and Buell really superior? With the right rider and the right chassis re-tune they certainly can be, but for the average talent rider I still think the SV is a better racing package.
You can't seriously say the XBR12 doesn't have a serious HP advantage over an SV?
Quote from: ScubaSteve on December 22, 2009, 09:27:03 AM
Yes Steve I know Ed very well. Raced him a few times. I dont think he has 50k in them though. When I raced Mills SV superbike I think at most Mills had 25k in it and it put out the same HP as Ed. Not many people can say they built a 100 hp SV and made it last a full year which we accomplished.
Yeah, Ed's 'O' bikes are well maintained machines for their respective classes.
However, the GP Bike owned by Bill Whisenant of Motorcycle performance is 'priceless', considering the amount of blood sweat and tears that went into it. I hope they get it dialed in this year, sure would like to see that bike dominating.
Quote from: ktd on December 22, 2009, 11:16:09 AM
You can't seriously say the XBR12 doesn't have a serious HP advantage over an SV?
Don't forget that the Buell weighs quite a bit more than an sv and certainly doesn't handle quite as well. I don't think that a well prepped Buell is a match for a well prepped sv. The Ducatis (DS1000) often make a lot more power than sv and weight a little more but they appear hard to ride compared to the svs.
Quote from: ScubaSteve on December 21, 2009, 12:13:39 PM
$50k SV that would be 1 insane bike I hope
Well I hear ya Steve. I can only go by what my experience is. When i raced the FZR the Mike Mills SV was built and running strong. I was told then that the price tag after all the R&D was about that $50K mark. My FZR put on the same dyno as that SV made less power than that SV at the 100 hp mark. I have raced against that SV when it went to Rob Buroker and it is one fast SV. With Rob and I abot the same level of rider it was a pretty good match but he definately had the motor on my FZR600 which incidentally is built to 630cc, headwork and flatslide carbs.
The SV is a formidable weapon but I don't believe it is necessarily a match for a Ducati in close to stock form. I do race my Ducati 800 against some other SV. I am an average rider and compete against other average riders on near to stock SV.
Mark
Quote from: SV88 on December 22, 2009, 04:15:06 PM
Don't forget that the Buell weighs quite a bit more than an sv and certainly doesn't handle quite as well.
Hey wait a minute. According to the official Eric Buell propaganda machine, Buells are the best handling motorcycles ever built. How is a base model commuter motorcycle, with pogo sticks for forks, like the SV out handling such an awesome weight-centralized beast? :biggrin:
I have had both bikes and I really can't agree with that.
Quote from: SV88 on December 22, 2009, 04:15:06 PM
Don't forget that the Buell weighs quite a bit more than an sv and certainly doesn't handle quite as well. I don't think that a well prepped Buell is a match for a well prepped sv. The Ducatis (DS1000) often make a lot more power than sv and weight a little more but they appear hard to ride compared to the svs.
To cut down thread repetition, maybe we can convince our moderator to create a "sticky" thread on this topic. It can be titled: "My SV should be the top bike in every class" or how about: "I'd be riding MotoGP... if my SV wasn't holding me back" I still see a lot of SV's winning a lot of races. If I had to guess, those winning on the Buells and Ducs would still be winning on SV's. Its you, not the bike. Just cut the sh*t and quit benchracing... buy the bike you think is the best or get over it!
KTD - I'm very interested in your experience. I'm essentially a slow expert sv rider and can comment on the SV vs R6. I've ridden all the older Buells (I used to teach for Rider's Edge) on the street (never @ race pace).
Scott: I do agree with you but only at our level. For the really fast experts where the skill differences are minute, the bikes have more of an impact.
On another thread it was mentionned that SVs won 56% of the races against smaller Buell and Duc. %s. Well yeah, most LW races are overun by SVs. So proportionally speaking, more races are won on Ducs and Buells; this contradicts my earlier argument that SVs are comparable to Buells....
This argument cannot go anywhere since a well prepped sv (eg: Key's) will kill any Buell or Duc. It would be more interesting to have a $2500 limit on mods and compare performance at that level (hp, torque, 0-100 mph) for the 3 platforms.
I really like the idea of the 600cc Pirelli spec class. Then it's only my fault if i don't win.
Quote from: 123user on December 23, 2009, 08:24:28 AM
"I'd be riding MotoGP... if my SV wasn't holding me back"
Best quote of year! :lmao:
BTW, Ed Key is going to win even on a tricycle. That man is a legend.
Edit:
Also, I've ridden all 3 bikes (SV, 1000DS, and XB12) In supersport form, I didn't feel that one was that much better than the other. Of course, I also disagreed with everyone on how the DS handled so who knows.
Well having been to BHF with the local Buell guys in the Amateur ranks running a decently set up SV SS bike...I hate the HP and torque advantage - unless I put 2-3 corners between me and them I couldn't keep them behind me and I was faster in the corners than the buell at least
In the end...well...I'm around to have fun and compete, if the calss says you can run it I'll just find a way past it...might take some work tho hehe
Besides I think attrition in hte BUell ranks will take care of most of that issue either way 8-( (I like a challenge after all...)
so what did they change the rule to?
what bikes are aloud in this class in 2010 ? any more then in 2009? or less
Quote from: 123user on December 18, 2009, 09:10:13 AM
Crap! Here we go again!! "Edited for space"
Are the Ducati and Buell really superior? With the right rider and the right chassis re-tune they certainly can be, but for the average talent rider I still think the SV is a better racing package.
My Ducati 800ss with an average rider(me) is very competitive with the SV and an average rider. Don't need the 1000 to be competitive with the SV. A well ridden SV will always beat the average ridden Ducati 1000. Heck I even beat a couple 1000 on my 800. There are definitely better riders than me on the 800SS.
Changes this year seems to be the 99 and earlier liquid cooled twins to 800cc instead of the stock bore/displacement SV. Keep in mind a SS build is not necessarily a stock build. There are a couple HC piston SV running in the Ultralight class.
Mark
"This argument cannot go anywhere since a well prepped sv (eg: Key's) will kill any Buell or Duc."
Really? Ever heard of a few guys names, Paul, Dan or Joel? I believe they all ride BUELLS and have beaten Ed a number of times.
x12racerx - yes they've beaten EK but has it not been consistent. I barely consider Ed's bikes svs anyway except for the SS plus he's a phenomenal rider. I suspect that a well prepped Buel or Duc is better than a well prepped SV particularly in the power dept. I beat my share of Buells as an AM however that was on ss sv and they definately had motor on the straights.
I'm happy to have different bikes in LW that have strength in different areas. For the sv rider it's clear that you have to brake later and corner faster to even have a chance against a equally prepped Buel or Duc.
Quote from: xb12racerX on December 24, 2009, 12:14:41 AM
"This argument cannot go anywhere since a well prepped sv (eg: Key's) will kill any Buell or Duc."
Really? Ever heard of a few guys names, Paul, Dan or Joel? I believe they all ride BUELLS and have beaten Ed a number of times.
Sorry man, not a good example, well except for Danny. Ask Paul what his record against Ed is. And beating Ed on a 150hp unlimited bike shouldnt even be brought into this conversation, even though Joel is an excellent rider.
who cares I am going to race my stock SV (besides a M4 pipe) again this season too!
We'll just ask Danny then. Sorry man, but Ed is an exception to the rule.
my sv is finnally fixed and the power is back.I had 59hp all year :-(((( All it was is the o rings on the choke cable were worn out so it was leaking air.The bike would only go to 8k all year,now it goes all the way to 10.5k :-),dont know the power yet but i hope to see at least a blazing 75.
Quote from: skidMARK on December 23, 2009, 10:22:55 PM
My Ducati 800ss with an average rider(me) is very competitive with the SV and an average rider. Don't need the 1000 to be competitive with the SV. A well ridden SV will always beat the average ridden Ducati 1000. Heck I even beat a couple 1000 on my 800. There are definitely better riders than me on the 800SS.
Changes this year seems to be the 99 and earlier liquid cooled twins to 800cc instead of the stock bore/displacement SV. Keep in mind a SS build is not necessarily a stock build. There are a couple HC piston SV running in the Ultralight class.
Mark
Mark. i'm still waiting for you Duc and Buell guys to catch my SV times in Fl. It all comes down to the rider in the end.
Quote from: ScubaSteve on December 29, 2009, 12:04:58 PM
Mark. i'm still waiting for you Duc and Buell guys to catch my SV times in Fl. It all comes down to the rider in the end.
Steve- I don't think we can at least not on the lightweight legal bikes. It does come down to the rider being able to extract every bit of performance out of whatever bike. In my limited experience I have found that more motor only gives a better position on track while in a race. More power doesn't always translate to faster lap times. Learn to use it and the bike/rider cobo gets faster.
Mark
Am I missing something? Did the rule change do something else beside eliminate the Duc 748 with the desmo
valvetrain from ULWSB?
Quote from: skidMARK on December 29, 2009, 05:16:37 PM
Steve- I don't think we can at least not on the lightweight legal bikes. It does come down to the rider being able to extract every bit of performance out of whatever bike. In my limited experience I have found that more motor only gives a better position on track while in a race. More power doesn't always translate to faster lap times. Learn to use it and the bike/rider cobo gets faster.
Mark
I know what you mean first hand. When i jumped on Mills bike and started racing it I was 2-3 secs a lap faster then he was. I had a lil more power then he did but I think what helped me out so much was having to race with him and Bryan C on their 90hp SB's and I was running a 75hp SS bike. That taught me a ton.
I think Mendez is close to 31's at Homestead and Pony was only a tenth off i believe
Quote from: MACOP1104 on December 29, 2009, 10:43:28 PM
Am I missing something? Did the rule change do something else beside eliminate the Duc 748 with the desmo
valvetrain from ULWSB?
No, Mark just misquoted the rule. It is pre-'99 not '99 and earlier so SV's are not affected at all. Still 650cc limit.
Quote from: Cowboy 6 on December 30, 2009, 10:25:58 AM
No, Mark just misquoted the rule. It is pre-'99 not '99 and earlier so SV's are not affected at all. Still 650cc limit.
Ahhh now I see. I guess I didn't read it thoroughly. So is the 748 still in?
Steve-I think Mendez has arrived at the 1:32 mark but I can't confirm that. Needless to say but it is pretty fast on a lightweight bike no matter which bike it is.
I know I still have more to go because I found myself seemingly coasting in some corners but I have never been that quick around Homestead on any bike. That 748 of Marc Miller is one fast bike. I am an old goat and I take a long time to learn.
Mark