Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Toy Store on October 24, 2009, 02:55:34 PM

Title: Safety at PBIR
Post by: Toy Store on October 24, 2009, 02:55:34 PM
As Many of you already know PBIR has some serious safety issues to deal with. Last month, Isidro Castillo died at this track when he hit a wall. I didn't know him, but I hope that his death will cause us to take action to get a safer race track.
As if it isn't bad enough to have to deal with a track lined with walls, the corner workers (at least this one) are sporting a used-up fire extinguisher!
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: F2RGK on October 24, 2009, 04:35:15 PM
Not Good....waivers or not!   
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 24, 2009, 07:11:47 PM
They are workin on it, we don't race there for 6 months.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: DEVINC on October 24, 2009, 07:35:44 PM
d-wire. is there any way you could keep us posted on the progress?
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: MELK-MAN on October 24, 2009, 10:29:05 PM
Between this forum and the JGP forum im sure any updates will be posted. If not, just ask.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: DEVINC on October 25, 2009, 04:17:56 AM
thanks guys.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 25, 2009, 07:52:22 AM
I doubt there will be any updates for a  little while. 
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: Toy Store on October 26, 2009, 08:51:18 AM
At the risk of sounding like a dick, I crashed a couple months ago in the same turn the picture was taken. If my bike caught fire and the corner worker responded with this fire extinguisher, I'd have had problems. Considering the poor kid that got burned-up on the carting track, I would think there would be a bit more precautions being taken.

There ARE serious safety issues at that track, but that aside... corner workers with depleted fire extinguishers is just plain complacent and reckless.

Seeing how there are so many challenges at this track, what can we do about it? Would it make sense to form a fund to help the track get things right for motorcycles? I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 11:39:22 AM
Just a hunch, but I would guess CCS and PBIR are going to look at ways to improve safety during this break in action.  I'm always in HD's ear about safety stuff and I'll let you guys know what they come up with.  Let's see what they are going to do before we get to that level Pat. It looks like they pretty much have to get some sections sorted.

The fire extinguisher is completely unacceptable.  I'll see what's up with that for sure. I'm perfectly capable of burning down a bike, it would be nice if they were capable of putting it out.

Just for clarification....I don't hold any kind of position with CCS.  HD seems to listen when I have a suggestion, which is nice.....he listens to the riders.  Any rider that wants to talk safety with HD or Steve Servis either at the riders meeting or otherwise can do so.  Lars Remsen suggested placing a barrier in July in a specific location, and later that day a guy made contact with it and saved him some trouble.

There are reasons behind the walls, from what I understand, which will keep them from being moved.  But IMHO there are ways to improve barriers and stuff.  Maybe they could double up barriers in the two real high impact areas in Turn 3 and Turn 10?  That would be awesome.

If they can sort out a few spots, the track will be awesome.  It is real fun to ride.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: Toy Store on October 26, 2009, 11:44:51 AM
There are some guys out there looking to boycott the track; I'm not even close to that. I have fun on the track, and will continue to do so next season. The walls suck, but I probably accept them more so than many others. It's just scary to me about the fire extinguisher. Not completely because of this, but because of all the little things I'm sure I don't know about.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 11:53:48 AM
Yeah, I don't think the riders will have to boycott the track.  I think they are going to improve it enough that most will find it acceptable.  There will be a few that make their own decision to not race there.  I feel that way about a different track. 

For me, there are a few spots that need attention, but people find the wierdest ways to crash and they have to consider those.  I saw a guy crash there the other night 1/2 down the backstretch after his front brakes locked while he was wide open.  Freaky stuff
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 26, 2009, 11:57:39 AM
Patrick,

You do have some legitimate concerns about safety and I must concur with your thoughts on safety. I have been contemplating a response to your first post for some time now. I think that some of your statements can be a little misleading unless you have specific details confirming the results. I don't have all the details and what I do have I would not be able to confirm with any accuracy.

The facts we do know is that he did hit a wall and there was a death. The death didn't happen at the time of the incident but later at the hospital. Yes a wall was involved but unless there was an investigation done of the incident I can't see a formal concluson being drawn.

The fact is walls and motorcycles don't mix well, even worse a motorcycle running head on into another motorcycle. A track being shoehorned into the space available makes for a track with lots of walls. For some of the bikes(slower bikes) it isn't as much of a factor. On the big bikes stuff happens faster.

The discharged extinguisher is something worth complaining about and I would say the first person to go to is the leader of the organization. I am sure he will then either investigate it himself or go to the person in charge of the corner-workers and safety in general and make the concerns known.

I am not happy about t incident with the kid on the Kart-track , but there is more to it. What we as participants of motorcycle racing should be concerned about is how it did affect our own safety which could have been very detrimental to us-not taking anything away from the child that was hurt.

There are some serious concerns with some of them being addressed as we speak. What can we do? Voice those concerns to Henry. I know I have with some of mine. Pass the hat? Not just yet. How about we form a safety committee that represents the riders? There are some riders now that are speaking up that have been invited by Henry and PBIR and they have been instrumental in improving safety before we ever ran there.

As far as the T3 incident I would have never expected the outcome on that fateful day. I think that anyplace on that track could have the same dire consequences given an ontrack incident that led to that. What we mostly look at is the typical single vehicle incident as in a high-side or lowside crash. What about going into T6 with your normal speed, someone comes by out of control or just plain 'ole misjudged the turn and clip your right clip-on and front brake lever? Where will you go then? Is there enough room to ride it out? I know many didn't like the gravel traps at Homestead but I must first hand experience that it did work for slowing me in an off-track excursion. It's not that I panicked and just ran off the track but instead the rider that had just mtorored by me parked it mid-corner and I had to maneuver to avoid.

Patrick, I am up for getting riders together and forming such as committee if needed. I just don;t know how to go about it.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 12:04:42 PM
I'd like to be on that committee...but they would have to do something to make sure the committee wouldn't be liable for incidents that happen on the track, where barriers are placed and not placed, etc.  I know I'd be concerned with all the lawyers out there and hey, this is a dangerous sport. 
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 26, 2009, 12:09:31 PM
So at least two show interest in the committee. I guess I will need to speak to Joe about the legal ramifications.

Anyone else?
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 12:17:32 PM
I think HD would want to pick the guys if there was one....I'm sure he would want guys in different classes etc.

Mark ..pm over on JGP
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: DEVINC on October 26, 2009, 01:02:12 PM
I may not have much valuable experience or opinions, but I would like to help. That is of course, if there is no legal liability and no personal financial obligations. Just letting you know...
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: GregGorman on October 26, 2009, 02:04:13 PM
I'd be up for this.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: Toy Store on October 26, 2009, 02:09:56 PM
I'm all about it! I will say that HD should NOT have any control over such a group. To do so would threaten any independent sovereignty it would have. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: MELK-MAN on October 26, 2009, 05:13:56 PM
Quote from: Toy Store on October 26, 2009, 02:09:56 PM
I'm all about it! I will say that HD should NOT have any control over such a group. To do so would threaten any independent sovereignty it would have. Just a thought.

? .. Not sure i would agree that would be best. HD had offered to match donations from racers for airfence at Homestead, before Homestead decided to cough up big bucks for a large amount of airfence in T7.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 26, 2009, 05:54:05 PM
Rest assured that Henry is doing everything he can for the riders.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 08:08:10 PM
If anything is ever put together like that, it would have to work through and with HD anyway.  HD can work with the tracks to get things done....he cares about the safety stuff more than people realize.  He was HUGE in getting the air fence for Homestead.  He is working right now on other stuff safety wise.  He isn't in this sport for the money.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 27, 2009, 02:21:35 AM
Quote from: skidMARK on October 26, 2009, 11:57:39 AM
Patrick,

You do have some legitimate concerns about safety and I must concur with your thoughts on safety. I have been contemplating a response to your first post for some time now. I think that some of your statements can be a little misleading unless you have specific details confirming the results. I don't have all the details and what I do have I would not be able to confirm with any accuracy.

The facts we do know is that he did hit a wall and there was a death. The death didn't happen at the time of the incident but later at the hospital. Yes a wall was involved but unless there was an investigation done of the incident I can't see a formal concluson being drawn.

The fact is walls and motorcycles don't mix well, even worse a motorcycle running head on into another motorcycle. A track being shoehorned into the space available makes for a track with lots of walls. For some of the bikes(slower bikes) it isn't as much of a factor. On the big bikes stuff happens faster.

The discharged extinguisher is something worth complaining about and I would say the first person to go to is the leader of the organization. I am sure he will then either investigate it himself or go to the person in charge of the corner-workers and safety in general and make the concerns known.

I am not happy about t incident with the kid on the Kart-track , but there is more to it. What we as participants of motorcycle racing should be concerned about is how it did affect our own safety which could have been very detrimental to us-not taking anything away from the child that was hurt.

There are some serious concerns with some of them being addressed as we speak. What can we do? Voice those concerns to Henry. I know I have with some of mine. Pass the hat? Not just yet. How about we form a safety committee that represents the riders? There are some riders now that are speaking up that have been invited by Henry and PBIR and they have been instrumental in improving safety before we ever ran there.

As far as the T3 incident I would have never expected the outcome on that fateful day. I think that anyplace on that track could have the same dire consequences given an ontrack incident that led to that. What we mostly look at is the typical single vehicle incident as in a high-side or lowside crash. What about going into T6 with your normal speed, someone comes by out of control or just plain 'ole misjudged the turn and clip your right clip-on and front brake lever? Where will you go then? Is there enough room to ride it out? I know many didn't like the gravel traps at Homestead but I must first hand experience that it did work for slowing me in an off-track excursion. It's not that I panicked and just ran off the track but instead the rider that had just mtorored by me parked it mid-corner and I had to maneuver to avoid.

Patrick, I am up for getting riders together and forming such as committee if needed. I just don;t know how to go about it.

Mark

Mark,

I like they way you express yourself, it's refreshing to see someone present the facts as they are without inflammatory statements or misinformation that was not substantiated one way or another. This is a new track and like anything else new you have to work out the problem areas as they arise...its work in progress. I have raced at PBIR since 1976 and each year the motors have more HP, the tires have more grip and bikes are made to handle better. Amateurs have a steep learning curve and present a level of risk from simple lack of experience. On the other hand Experts are pushings limits riding fast and fully committed and on tight areas of the tracks where there is great risk. Let me try to give you the answer you were looking for as far as how to go about initiating the process. There has been an established and recognized process that has been used in Florida and is still used at the National Level to a degree and I'll explain. The tools that were previously used was a handfull of top riders including veterans that had tenure would do a walk thru/ ride thru observation and report back to a rider representative. This individual would analyze the report, get concensus and make the recommendations to the promotor. In turn the promotor would submit the recommendations to the track management for review and comments. Everything takes time and the solution depends on how much needs to be done and how soon. The track owners have made a great investment and the business is trying to make money so understand if change takes time because the solution will have a cost factor. In Topeka, they worked all night to get it right for a National, PBIR is not running Nationals but the safety to life factor can not be ignored for the sake of points or money. This matter indeed affects all and all should participate to contribute to a solution. Just so you know, someone has to step up to the plate and communicate this intent to the general ridership and give Henry a heads up. High level professional communication with concensus should do it and without drama.

Steve Guanche
Ex # 15
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 27, 2009, 06:48:42 AM
Quote from: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 12:04:42 PM
I'd like to be on that committee...but they would have to do something to make sure the committee wouldn't be liable for incidents that happen on the track, where barriers are placed and not placed, etc.  I know I'd be concerned with all the lawyers out there and hey, this is a dangerous sport. 

Sean,
This is your opportunity to contribute to the cause. Please read my posted response to Mark Tenn on his matter and get back to me if you have questions...I believe you would be a good candidate for a safety committee.

Steve Guanche
EX # 15 FL
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 27, 2009, 07:07:04 AM
Steve,

Thank you for the response and insight. With the information within your post I must report that this process has been well underway even before we started racing on the new track. Henry has initiated this process a long time ago. Why did he do it? I believe because he is a racer at heart and he is looking out for my safety. Safety in a high risk endeavor is a difficult proposition to be perfect all the time. We can only speculate on the dangers and deal with the most obvious ones first.

I too have raced on the old Moroso on it's many incarnations. With rough and patchy pavement, canals looming in the background, water run-off coming from the overhead walk-over onto the front straight, and oh yeah walls. I believed that the new track would bring higher corner speeds and maybe even more serious injuries after a crash. I don't know if it more safe or not, I hope so.

Sean has been instrumental in getting things done and he is a voice that is well respected by rider and promoter. I believe we are headed in the right direction.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 27, 2009, 07:38:06 AM
Quote from: skidMARK on October 27, 2009, 07:07:04 AM
Steve,

Thank you for the response and insight. With the information iwhtin your post I must report that this process has been well underway even before we started racing on the new track. Henry has initiated this process a long time ago. Why did he do it? I believe because he is a racer at heart and he is looking out for my safety. Safety in a high risk endeavor is a difficult proposition to be perfect all the time. We can only speculate on the dangers and deal with the most obvious ones first.

I too have raced on the old Moroso on it's many incarnations. With rough and patchy pavement, canals looming in the background, water run-off coming from the overhead walk-over onto the front straight, and oh yeah walls. I believed that the new track would bring higher corner speeds and maybe even more serious injuries after a crash. I don't know if it more safe or not, I hope so.

Sean has been instrumental in getting things done and he is a voice that is well respected by rider and promoter. I believe we are headed in the right direction.

Mark

Mark,

There is a large ridership and a number of them are taking a negative position on PBIR. Whatever is being done should be openly communicated to all the riders in a timely fashion...I did say High Level Professional Communication. This at least cuts the edge and tension from riders that instead of contributing are in a negative stance. This needs to come from Henry if a rider representave has not been formally chosen. So far, all I've seen in the forum is Dwyer, Melka and you post threads as good ambassadors.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 27, 2009, 08:50:55 AM
Steve,

I thoroughly agree with everything you have stated. High Level and Professionalism doesn't lend itself to a descriptioion of me(kidding). I am not currently involved any any of the talks or ideas regarding safety but for some reason I feel obligated to get involved and active.

I take some responsibility for safety after bringing my Sons and brother out to the track and get them riding. I make sure that the safety issues on the bikes they are riding are at least looked after and corrected if needed. This same effort I feel obligated to do when it comes to the track and it's condition.

Your statements have lit a spark under me to have that professional conduct and attitude especially in the communication department. I can only hope that my efforts will be received in a favorable manner by all.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 27, 2009, 09:58:19 AM
Quote from: skidMARK on October 27, 2009, 08:50:55 AM
Steve,

I thoroughly agree with everything you have stated. High Level and Professionalism doesn't lend itself to a descriptioion of me(kidding). I am not currently involved any any of the talks or ideas regarding safety but for some reason I fell obligated to get involved and active.

I take some responsibility for safety after bringing my Sons and brother out to the track and get them riding. I make sure that the safety issues on the bikes they are riding are at least looked after and corrected if needed. This same effort I fell obligated to do when it comes to the track and it's condition.

Your statements have lit a spark under me to have that professional conduct and attitude especially in the communication department. I can only hope that my efforts will be received in a favorable manner by all.

Mark

Sounds good Mark,

I'm here to help and hope more riders fall in behind us for the better of the sport. Since we both understand the current status, all we can do at this point is to give Henry an opportunity and see.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: JCP636 on October 27, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
I don't see any liability issues if the committee is set up in a manner that they simply make recomendations to the organization and the track on ways that safety should be improved and areas that are dangerous. IF there were the possibility of any liability, the only way I could see it happening is if the committee were actually put in charge of approving the track as safe and having the final say on weather or not races would be run there. While I don't see that as likely, an additional indemnification clause for the committee could be added to the normal waivers that riders sign before they get on the track.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: JCP636 on October 27, 2009, 11:44:17 PM
My post on this thread about liability would also apply in that scenario. http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,23715.0.html
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 28, 2009, 07:26:02 AM
Quote from: JCP636 on October 27, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
I don't see any liability issues if the committee is set up in a manner that they simply make recommendations to the organization and the track on ways that safety should be improved and areas that are dangerous. IF there were the possibility of any liability, the only way I could see it happening is if the committee were actually put in charge of approving the track as safe and having the final say on weather or not races would be run there. While I don't see that as likely, an additional indemnification clause for the committee could be added to the normal waivers that riders sign before they get on the track.
Deep Pockets

Gentlemen, let's clear the air and put this to rest about exposure or liability. The track owners (real property) are the first target, if a business enterprise is opporating on that property (race track) 2nd target, The individuals or entities who put on events on said  property (promotors) 3rd target. Sponsors of those events are the last targets and sometimes individuals that are involved that may not have incorporated an indemnity clause in the business agreements . You could have asked Henry DeGouw directly and he would have shared this with anyone. In reference to exposure or liability for anyone making recommendations for anything, as long as the recommendation is not criminal and you did not sign a form letter or other type of document. The liability and exposure would be borne by the targets I mentioned above. There will always be risk in any business and big business should have big insurance and big legal representation to go with it. It's the cost of doing business.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: ScubaSteve on October 29, 2009, 10:14:19 AM
Quote from: d-wire on October 26, 2009, 08:08:10 PM
If anything is ever put together like that, it would have to work through and with HD anyway.  HD can work with the tracks to get things done....he cares about the safety stuff more than people realize.  He was HUGE in getting the air fence for Homestead.  He is working right now on other stuff safety wise.  He isn't in this sport for the money.

+1.

I'll look into the fire extinguishers also.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: vnvbandit on October 29, 2009, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: ScubaSteve on October 29, 2009, 10:14:19 AM
+1.

I'll look into the fire extinguishers also.

Volusia county requires fire extinguishers to be hydrostatic tested once a year for commercial properties. You might want to check your local & state laws also.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 29, 2009, 04:01:27 PM
I am not too sure about being hydrostatic tested each year but surely checked for freshness yes. The Soduim Bicarb tends to cake together after time. Hydro is typically a 3 year proposition.

As far as effective use the most important factor is the user. Most extinguishers are maybe good for up to a mintue of use.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 29, 2009, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from: vnvbandit on October 29, 2009, 12:00:33 PM
Volusia county requires fire extinguishers to be hydrostatic tested once a year for commercial properties. You might want to check your local & state laws also.
Interesting how we analyze what we observe and draw conclusions that are pretty good...but sometimes the most obvious slips by. All fire extinguishers regardless of material type have a certified inspection tag tied around the neck or a sticker on the bottle with the inspection date punched out by the vendor providing the service. Without a valid inspection tag the device is out of compliance. Keep up the good work guys, the more you dig, the more you"ll find and we'll be better off for it.  :thumb:

Happy Trails,

Steve Guanche
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: MELK-MAN on October 29, 2009, 08:16:40 PM
Quote from: redlinepilot on October 29, 2009, 04:22:23 PM
Interesting how we analyze what we observe and draw conclusions that are pretty good...but sometimes the most obvious slips by. All fire extinguishers regardless of material type have a certified inspection tag tied around the neck or a sticker on the bottle with the inspection date punched out by the vendor providing the service. Without a valid inspection tag the device is out of compliance. Keep up the good work guys, the more you dig, the more you"ll find and we'll be better off for it.  :thumb:

Happy Trails,

Steve Guanche

"valid" being the key word. Having the tag does not mean it is in compliance. For commercial use (apartments, commercial spaces, restaurants) the state of FL requires them to be inspected and re-taged once a year. Owning apartments, i have to pay a fee for this and if i don't the divisions of hotels and restaurants can fine me.
That being said.. i have no idea if the track is inspected in the same manner. It is pretty silly however for the dial to read "empty" . Better to not have one than have one that won't work. I'm sure this is one thing that will soon be addressed.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on October 29, 2009, 09:35:56 PM
Quote from: MELK-MAN on October 29, 2009, 08:16:40 PM
"valid" being the key word. Having the tag does not mean it is in compliance. For commercial use (apartments, commercial spaces, restaurants) the state of FL requires them to be inspected and re-taged once a year. Owning apartments, i have to pay a fee for this and if i don't the divisions of hotels and restaurants can fine me.
That being said.. i have no idea if the track is inspected in the same manner. It is pretty silly however for the dial to read "empty" . Better to not have one than have one that won't work. I'm sure this is one thing that will soon be addressed.

Greg your on it, bouncing our experiences and expertice between members of the forum really builds the forum and shows integrity.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: vnvbandit on October 29, 2009, 10:01:11 PM
Steve & Greg, your right! It's the annual inspection and certification tag I was referring to. OOPS   :banghead:
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 29, 2009, 10:48:39 PM
Uh huh...

Typically, at least in Palm Beach County the Fire Department does the inspection during the annual "Company Inspection". We will not only check for compliance(the tag) but we will also make sure the gauge reads full. If it isn't in compliance then there is a warning of violation, then one month later if it hasn't been corrected comes the fine. Sadly, I am not sure who inspects the extinguishers at the track such as the one that was photographed. I don't believe there are any statues governing their presence. I am sure now that Steve S. has said that he would check, it will be done.

Regardless of the tag or the gauge, it is wise to move the contents around so it doen't become caked. Oh, have you ever noticed the big wheeled fire extinguishers in the Daytona garages? That would be a lot more effective than the little fire bottles.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: RAISING CANE on October 31, 2009, 12:06:46 AM
Of course you have to get to the burning bike to put it out....I once watched a guy come into the bus stop at old Moroso....he collected another rider and went down...He quickly picked up his ride and took off not knowing the bike was on fire and getting worse as he blazed into turn 1. I guess he felt the heat cause he stopped at turn 3 :ahhh:
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on October 31, 2009, 09:50:11 AM
I am not so worried about the bike but more the rider under the burning bike. The most likely scenario with a fuly involved burning bike those little extinguishers won't do much good. It will give the rider a chance to get from under it. Extinguishers can be effective in the right hands. I wonder how many have had a course on the use of extinguishers?

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: RAISING CANE on October 31, 2009, 05:22:01 PM
You are correct Mark. when I was on the flight line in the air force we had training a couple times a year because those extinguishers run out very fast. A few wasted passes of the nozel and the fire may not go out with one bottle!

Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: Candelata on November 01, 2009, 09:02:50 AM
Guys let's just make sure the exposed walls are covered with the proper material to protect us.
We all love racing but this terrible accident could have happened to any of us.
Is it worth to die for what you love: yes
Is it wrong to die because people are stupid and greedy (the people that built this track for motorcycle racing with a bunch of walls everywhere): yes!
PBIR / CCS fix it or A LOT  of us won't race on it again.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 01, 2009, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: Candelata on November 01, 2009, 09:02:50 AM
Guys let's just make sure the exposed walls are covered with the proper material to protect us.
We all love racing but this terrible accident could have happened to any of us.
Is it worth to die for what you love: yes
Is it wrong to die because people are stupid and greedy (the people that built this track for motorcycle racing with a bunch of walls everywhere): yes!
PBIR / CCS fix it or A LOT  of us won't race on it again.

Candelata,

Take a minute to read the posts that other members have posted and you'll see that we're all concerned. At the same time I authored a topic in JenningsGP Forum that parallels this concern: "Track Safety" in general discussion. When you say guys, please understand that the riders are not in control of the track directly but you can represent your concern to the promotor. Keep reading the threads for updates and information.

http://www.jenningsgp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18629

I started that Topic for two reasons, one, I wanted to redirect the focus of the bigger picture for general track safety. Two, not to continue to fill this topic endlessly, Isidro, may he rest in peace.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: MELK-MAN on November 01, 2009, 10:52:51 AM
Quote from: redlinepilot on November 01, 2009, 09:25:55 AM
Candelata,

Take a minute to read the posts that other members have posted and you'll see that we're all concerned. At the same time I authored a topic in JenningsGP Forum that parallels this concern: "Track Safety" in general discussion. When you say guys, please understand that the riders are not in control of the track directly but you can represent your concern to the promotor. Keep reading the threads for updates and information.

http://www.jenningsgp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18629

I started that Topic for two reasons, one, I wanted to redirect the focus of the bigger picture for general track safety. Two, not to continue to fill this topic endlessly, Isidro, may he rest in peace.

Steve, i wouldn't waste too much time with Candelata. It is pretty clear he only reads the last couple posts of this and another thread and is just throwing fuel onto the fire.. He did the same thing in another thread (now he has 3 total posts) not even taking the time to read all the posts before making some off handed ill prepared reply.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on November 01, 2009, 11:17:10 AM
Wise man you are Mr Melka.

I do believe that some proactive atttitudes can go a long way. I think that one of those attitudes is in the aspect of training. Training for the new rider and even the experienced rider. Training for the corner worker and even training for the casual observer. How many times have we seen spectators running onto the track as a good samaritan. The corner-worker can benefit by realizing that he/she may not know everything about a given situation.

One such training topic that directly aligns with safety is the statement, "Hold your line". What does that means to you? let me hear what you have and I will give you my take on it.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: MELK-MAN on November 01, 2009, 06:25:41 PM
Quote from: skidMARK on November 01, 2009, 11:17:10 AM
Wise man you are Mr Melka.

I do believe that some proactive atttitudes can go a long way. I think that one of those attitudes is in the aspect of training. Training for the new rider and even the experienced rider. Training for the corner worker and even training for the casual observer. How many times have we seen spectators running onto the track as a good samaritan. The corner-worker can benefit by realizing that he/she may not know everything about a given situation.

One such training topic that directly aligns with safety is the statement, "Hold your line". What does that means to you? let me hear what you have and I will give you my take on it.

Mark

Hey Mark,
     In a limited context, i tell a rider holding a line is simply staying on the race line. However, i also add there is no need to use every inch of racetrack if they are off the pace, or usually being lapped later in most races. I don't need to tell you, but for others, Staying on the line allows the overtaking rider to anticipate with regularity where the rider they are about to overtake will be on the track in relation to they approach. If the slower rider makes an erratic move, it obviously can make a mess of things. Leaving some room inside and out is VERY important i think to allow the faster rider SAFER alternatives when deciding where to pass. It is not slowing the lapped rider one bit to leave some room inside and out to allow for a safer pass. If things go as they do 99 times out of 100, the lapped rider will hardly notice anything happens as teh faster rider goes by.
Again, im not factoring in any variables such as a crash, oil, or some reason the lapped rider would need to alter thier line off the normal race line. 
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 01, 2009, 08:30:58 PM
Greg, I could not have said it better, I've been preaching that for years. I personally have been consulting with new riders on the side and keying them in on leaving space on the inside and not close the door. The riders school teach this but when the novice rider gets on the track the lesson doesn't always take. Reinforcing the firm message at the riders meeting is the only reminder the rider has before going out but I have an idea.
An additional tool may be developed right here in the Forum. A novice rider FAQ could be drafted, proofed and posted. The new riders would be encouraged to read and understand the points of the FAQ. There is no way to obligate them but the onus of self preservation just may have them read it. I guess what I'm saying is to produce a new Novice rider  manual for all intents and purposes. It would be a great solution and a new standard to build upon. The members of the forum or anyone with positive input can contribute collectively. We can build this and take control of the environment of our community. I would rather be in a proactive position and have these tools ready instead of waiting for something that might never be. Will you help to organize this? We have enough stand up guys to do this.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: MELK-MAN on November 01, 2009, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: redlinepilot on November 01, 2009, 08:30:58 PM
Greg, I could not have said it better, I've been preaching that for years. I personally have been consulting with new riders on the side and keying them in on leaving space on the inside and not close the door. The riders school teach this but when the novice rider gets on the track the lesson doesn't always take. Reinforcing the firm message at the riders meeting is the only reminder the rider has before going out but I have an idea.
An additional tool may be developed right here in the Forum. A novice rider FAQ could be drafted, proofed and posted. The new riders would be encouraged to read and understand the points of the FAQ. There is no way to obligate them but the onus of self preservation just may have them read it. I guess what I'm saying is to produce a new Novice rider  manual for all intents and purposes. It would be a great solution and a new standard to build upon. The members of the forum or anyone with positive input can contribute collectively. We can build this and take control of the environment of our community. I would rather be in a proactive position and have these tools ready instead of waiting for something that might never be. Will you help to organize this? We have enough stand up guys to do this.

It can be a slipery slope however on how much you tell newer riders at a race day riders meeting. Would be cool if more new riders were taught this in riding schools, but the trouble is the old addage.. you can lead the horse to water but can ya make em drink?? Riders wanna race, and the last thing the ego of many will allow is keeping in mind what to do when being lapped. Would it keep them and others safe? you bet.. what to do? im not totally sure.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 01, 2009, 11:36:53 PM
I'm an optimist, my perspective is nothing ventured nothing gained. The FAQ is what would be recommended at the riders meeting as the Novice Guide. In the guide would be the "What if column" and the "How to column" for general tips but regardless of the initial format, it's clean, straight forward and logical. No one has to worry about stepping on anyone toes because it is rider generated for riders. As Experts we would be expected to practice what we preach and be resource for those who reach out. Now if you approach me in the pits when I have a free moment... sure what ya need kind of help, just a couple of things to get them on their merry way but the FAQ is still the Guide, really.  Almost anything you do today has a link with FAQ's but it takes effort, time and commitment to produce this knowledge base in a user friendly format. If you don't have the time or not interested in volunteering  your time I would understand but we could delegate or segment some of the tasks to other that would like to contribute....didn't I see your name on the front of the Forum as Administrator?  Yes we can!
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on November 02, 2009, 06:12:05 AM
Greg and Steve,

I think we have a good start here where kicking around some ideas allow many to view and hopefully gain some insight. Remember when your mother or father would give you advice and it wouldn't make sense at the time. then later you would figure out, "oh that is what they were talking about". I think if you say it then someone else says it, and I say it maybe it will stick.

I started a list of tips on the JGP forum that I will share here also in hope that others will add to the list. I am summarizing what others are advising but just doesn't know how to go about telling a group. If we put the list or the FAQ's together then I will get them printed. It will be my effort towards self preservation so that I don't get taken out by that faster Amateur on a big bike.

I too am of the same thinking. One statement I have made to Nancy is, "if I can't tell you why I crashed then I have no business getting back on the track". My thinking behind the statement is if I don't know what I did wrong then I am just going to do it again probably with the same result or even worse.

So the first rider tip, if we all can agree;

1) Know how you crashed and how to correct it. It's not the tire.

2) Don't try a pass on the outside of a 125GP, especially when Wenner is on it. I am sure glad you tried the outside and not the inside.

3) Keep the ego in check. It goes a long way for your own safety and the safety of your competitors.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 02, 2009, 01:02:12 PM
Here is a link on how other racing organzations are providing Novice support.

http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=8026 (http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=8026)
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 02, 2009, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: redlinepilot on November 02, 2009, 01:02:12 PM
Here is a link on how other racing organzations are providing Novice support.

http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=8026 (http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=8026)

OK, this gets even better.

http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=2420&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= (http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=2420&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: GregGorman on November 02, 2009, 05:27:40 PM
I like seeing this thread include ideas for rider education.  Attacking this problem from multiple angles is a good way to go.  Big Brother/Sister racers is a good idea.  Of course the Big B/S would need some kind of verification they know what's going on too. 

Instead of throwing novices off the deep end and say swim.  Work to improve them throughout the whole season.  It could improve the whole level of the sport.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: Graham on November 02, 2009, 08:54:41 PM
Racers can also sign up for advance racing school to.Even experts, theres always something to learn.Another way is to contact the racing schools and let the instructors know alot of riders are struggling with some of the on track desciplines and maybe point out this to the instructors, so maybe they can go into more detail about it with the students.Just a thought...
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 02, 2009, 09:08:38 PM
Quote from: Graham on November 02, 2009, 08:54:41 PM
Racers can also sign up for advance racing school to.Even experts, theres always something to learn.Another way is to contact the racing schools and let the instructors know alot of riders are struggling with some of the on track desciplines and maybe point out this to the instructors, so maybe they can go into more detail about it with the students.Just a thought...

Brad, click on the links posted on Reply 50 and 51. It's true what you say if you have the means and opportunity. The thread reponses on those links speaks volumns.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on November 02, 2009, 10:34:40 PM
Quote from: Graham on November 02, 2009, 08:54:41 PM
Racers can also sign up for advance racing school to.Even experts, theres always something to learn.Another way is to contact the racing schools and let the instructors know alot of riders are struggling with some of the on track desciplines and maybe point out this to the instructors, so maybe they can go into more detail about it with the students.Just a thought...

True, true...I attended the Penguin School December 2008 after 5 seasons of racing. I must tell you I learned some good riding tips to help me along and gave me some tools that I use today to learn new tracks.

I like the statement that Eric Wood made. He stated that this is a racetrack and in a racetrack environment there will be individuals going fast even to the point of pushing their abilities. If they crash while doing so and take you out, they are Really Really really sorry.

Frank Kinsey has also stated whether it is a race weekend, race day,  or track day when there are two motorcycles on track it is a race so ride accordingly smart.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 03, 2009, 08:25:05 AM
ONLINE RACE TRACK  ORIENTATION AND VISUAL AIDES

Looking at the Summit Point Motorsports Park web site I discovered that they have an animated discription of each section of the course and explanation of the race line, entry approach, path and exit of those sections. Additionally provided is a video of an on track car circulating the track while a track map to the side of the video indicates car position.
Excellent tools for all to use.

http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/ (http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/)
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: RAISING CANE on November 03, 2009, 10:12:19 PM
Quote from: Graham on November 02, 2009, 08:54:41 PM
Racers can also sign up for advance racing school to.Even experts, theres always something to learn.Another way is to contact the racing schools and let the instructors know alot of riders are struggling with some of the on track desciplines and maybe point out this to the instructors, so maybe they can go into more detail about it with the students.Just a thought...


I fully agree Brad...I took the Penguin advanced school beginning 08 season and had one of my best weekends ever....also took a few very good bits of info that I can use at any track and some that were specific to Homestead. Have recently thought of taking it again at the start of 2010 season. To quote another Eric Wood instruction "This is the advanced racing school! Today you are going to be either on the brakes 100% or on the gas 100% thats it ,no coasting today".

I found it to be far different than the original licencing school. The advanced school was a true race school.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: RAISING CANE on November 03, 2009, 11:01:13 PM
Quote from: skidMARK on November 01, 2009, 11:17:10 AM
Wise man you are Mr Melka.

I do believe that some proactive atttitudes can go a long way. I think that one of those attitudes is in the aspect of training. Training for the new rider and even the experienced rider. Training for the corner worker and even training for the casual observer. How many times have we seen spectators running onto the track as a good samaritan. The corner-worker can benefit by realizing that he/she may not know everything about a given situation.

One such training topic that directly aligns with safety is the statement, "Hold your line". What does that means to you? let me hear what you have and I will give you my take on it.

Mark


Very true Mark.....you may have herd this but while working T1 at Moroso 04 season  a guy on a 2 stroke in Saturday practice went down and slid all the way out to the tire wall by the canal. Race control radioed down to me that a woman was running up behind me at that I needed to keep her from getting onto the track. The rider had picked up and cleared out immediately but his wife was just going to run out there. She was frantic screaming....I grabbed her and told her that he was fine. She fell to the ground and sat there for a while crying.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on November 04, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Glen- It is such a common thing to find even on the streets where the family member comes to the aid of the loved one involved in a crash. The point is though let the guys and gals trained to do that job actually do it and don't become another victim of the crash. It may seem forever for EMS help to get there but being an obstacle on the track doesn't help either.

I think the Florida Region has in the past suspended individuals from racing and require them to do a little cornerworking.

So "hold your line" to me is similar to other commens from Greg and Steve.
Me passing you-I do believe that staying on your racing line is the best approach. Don't try to get out of my way even if you see me coming, just don't try to race with me if I am clearly faster or we are not racing for position(EX/AM). I recently gave my brother the advice to try not to use all of the track when exiting a corner but leave room on the outside as a safety margin, first for him if he runs wide and for that faster rider that comes up at that particular moment. Sadly, just tat happened to me racing with Kyle Keesee in Ultralight. Kyle got by my brother on the inside just before the apex and me trailing behind used the outside right after, then my brother ran wide.

If you are on the faster bike or faster rider than me- I will hold my race line. I won't try to fight back if you have made a pass on me. So many times guys with bigger faster guys have come blasting in a turn under me only to blow it the turn. Yeah I had the opportunity to stuff it back up the inside but didn't. Why should I take that chance of coming together only to be passed again down the straight? If you are clearly faster I will let you have the position.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 05, 2009, 12:28:45 AM
The old Moroso layout had concrete barriers lined with tires around most of the track. The new PBIR advertises 1700 feet of S.A.V.E. barriers on their web site. I have not seen it and would like to know where it is, I'm not saying they don't have it but what I did see was tires lined in sections like the old Moroso but there was alot of exposed concrete that the average person would never think would matter. I've been educating myself doing research over the last few weeks and found a ton of information. If your going to PBIR for a track day or club race you should consider how easy it was for me to find what tracks across the country have done to improve their safety profile. Roadracing World kicked it off and as not to be outshined, the AMA jumped in as the leading US organization did not want to be behind the curve, this was back in 2001. Since PBIR is a condensed layout compared to other tracks and wrapped with concrete walls, I think a rider of any level would surely praise the comfort and security that if they accept the dangerous risk of racing that the infrastructure of the PBIR facility included a course lined with AirFence in front of those tires. Nobody in the forums can dictate to a privately owned facility what to do but, all of us may request dialog with PBIR to see if they are interested in this direction and as not to completely put the burden solely on PBIR, solutions to appropriate the linear footage necessary. At least the dialog of communication coming directly from PBIR would indicate if there is positive intent to address our safety needs and concerns or not. No one likes to operate or dwell in a cloud of uncertainty but I am certain that strife in not positve and it spreads. The ramifications affect all associated with the business of motorcycle racing. To PBIR's defense, they have many other functions other than motorcycle events  and the sheer costs to provide a safer facility for us might not be feasible for them.

(http://www.siteanswers.com/racing/photo/2001_05_19/2/DSCF0002.jpg)

(http://www.tigertrackdays.com/main/AirFenceOverView.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j125/JPw1kr/pedders_airfence.jpg)

(//)
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: GregGorman on November 05, 2009, 07:09:00 AM
The "Hold your line" advice requires the rider being lapped knows two things:
1. He's being lapped.
2. What his line is.

1. is just rider awareness.  Some riders will know and some won't.  If the rider doesn't know he's being lapped, no advice will help.  Whatever he normally does, the first passer will get.  After he gets passed once though, that should be the warning there's more coming through.

2. is a little trickier. We want the rider to be predictable, that's all.  Predictable means the passing rider has calculated where he expects the lapper to go and he goes there.  Anything else is, by definition, unpredictable.  Most of all, the lapper should not swerve. A swerve is a sudden movement.  Track positioning is a definite movement to a predictable point, be it a turnpoint, mid-corner point or exit point. A lapper needs to figure out his line, using the basic out-in-out formula, from his current position and and go there.  If he's off his line, he should handle his speed accordingly.

Some of the problems with telling someone to "hold their line" are: The lapper's "line" may include swerving across the track to hit a wide turn point at the last second.  If he thinks he should follow the racing line when being lapped that can also lead to swerving as he may not be on the racing line.  The lapper may not know what the racing line is or what his line is.  That can lead to some interesting moments.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: GregGorman on November 05, 2009, 07:10:49 AM
We need endurance racing in FL.  Nothing teaches passing and being passed like endurance racing.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 05, 2009, 09:17:14 AM
Being passed can be surprising an sometimes a momentary shock, I had to work on myself and mentally train knowing that I will be passed unexpectedly. I flinched, sometimes standing the bike up when a rider took the little space I left on the inside and also when the passing rider saw no other choice, the rider would pass on the outside and I would get pinched to the point of letting off the gas and one finger brake to let them in and avoid a hit. Many times down the back straight of Daytona I've heard behind me before entering the chicane tires chirping, swingarms violently rattling the chain from a riders failed attempt to pass and sometime maybe even seeing a wheel by my knee, scary. Seat time is the best teacher, gathering the tips and tools you have learned and applying them while on the track. To be mentally strong to not react (poker face) when passed. Truly, consistency is key, using the same brake markers, entry and exit points and making each lap mirror each other displays to others your predictability and safe riding method that instills confidence for others riding near you. It's your riding signature. 
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on November 05, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Steve, there is 1700ft of barrier out at PBIR right now.  I think they will be adding a substantial amount in this offseason.  Riders have already made contact with the barriers out at PBIR and were saved injury.  Also, I am under the impression that Henry Degouw and PBIR are looking at adding barriers.

Right now it is in turns 2,3, exit of 5,exit of 8,9, and 10
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 05, 2009, 12:36:06 PM
Quote from: d-wire on November 05, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Steve, there is 1700ft of barrier out at PBIR right now.  I think they will be adding a substantial amount in this offseason.  Riders have already made contact with the barriers out at PBIR and were saved injury.  Also, I am under the impression that Henry Degouw and PBIR are looking at adding barriers.


Right now it is in turns 2,3, exit of 5,exit of 8,9, and 10




Good feedback Sean, Thanks. We can only hope that whatever method and areas are chosen comes to fruition.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: GregGorman on November 05, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: d-wire on November 05, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Steve, there is 1700ft of barrier out at PBIR right now.  I think they will be adding a substantial amount in this offseason.  Riders have already made contact with the barriers out at PBIR and were saved injury.  Also, I am under the impression that Henry Degouw and PBIR are looking at adding barriers.

Right now it is in turns 2,3, exit of 5,exit of 8,9, and 10

Wow!  That's 1700 feet?  That's almost 6 football fields of airfence?  I never would have guessed.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: DEVINC on November 05, 2009, 01:44:03 PM
Great news!
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 05, 2009, 02:00:58 PM
Quote from: GregGorman on November 05, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
Wow!  That's 1700 feet?  That's almost 6 football fields of airfence?  I never would have guessed.

It's true Greg but 2 miles of track and concrete on both sides has more or less about 21120 feet (70 football feilds). The corner exits that Sean mentioned might just add about two or three hundred feet per turn and maybe doubling what they have now. Maybe.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 05, 2009, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: d-wire on November 05, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Steve, there is 1700ft of barrier out at PBIR right now.  I think they will be adding a substantial amount in this offseason.  Riders have already made contact with the barriers out at PBIR and were saved injury.  Also, I am under the impression that Henry Degouw and PBIR are looking at adding barriers.

Right now it is in turns 2,3, exit of 5,exit of 8,9, and 10

By the way, where on the track are those barriers covering?
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: d-wire on November 05, 2009, 02:46:29 PM
In turn 2 there are some tire barriers at the exit...the barriers are in front of the tires.  Then in turn 3, there is barrier right next to the wall.......the middle of turn 4 and turn 5 has adequate runoff....there are barriers in front of tires at the exit of turn 5.  Barriers in front of tires at the exit of turn 8 as you are coming onto the front straight.  In turn 9 (the right carousel) there are some barriers at the beginning...where you would hit if you lost the brakes or crashed on the brakes......then just tires in the middle, cause if you fell in the middle you'd be going slower and would likely stop on the asphalt....then barriers in front of the tire wall at the exit of 9 (by the pit entrance) and barriers right at the wall in turn 10 coming onto the front straight.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 05, 2009, 02:58:33 PM
Quote from: d-wire on November 05, 2009, 02:46:29 PM
In turn 2 there are some tire barriers at the exit...the barriers are in front of the tires.  Then in turn 3, there is barrier right next to the wall.......the middle of turn 4 and turn 5 has adequate runoff....there are barriers in front of tires at the exit of turn 5.  Barriers in front of tires at the exit of turn 8 as you are coming onto the front straight.  In turn 9 (the right carousel) there are some barriers at the beginning...where you would hit if you lost the brakes or crashed on the brakes......then just tires in the middle, cause if you fell in the middle you'd be going slower and would likely stop on the asphalt....then barriers in front of the tire wall at the exit of 9 (by the pit entrance) and barriers right at the wall in turn 10 coming onto the front straight.

Your the man, I like doing business with you.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: roadracer162 on November 05, 2009, 08:39:04 PM
The safety barriers have been there for quite some time and they have bee placed in the most obvious location of high impact. More of them will always be needed even at the middle of the back straight as long as a wall is there, but we must do the best that we can with what is there. Henry and PBIR and the group of riders that volunteered their time have been proactive even before we ever raced there.

There are more areas that can be made safer. and I am sure they will be addressed.

Mark
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 06, 2009, 10:58:16 PM
Re: Air Fence at PBIR

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by GsxrLwyr 
some very good points you brought up.

I'm sure CCS is taking this very seriously, but if HD is still anything like he was in the old days, I wish you even more luck. At the end of the day, he does have a financial stake in all of this, so I would keep a close eye on his responses/actions.

Keep in mind that everyone who does race/ride at any event signs a liability waiver, which clearly states that they fully understand and accept the risk of riding/racing at that track.

Perhaps rather than blaming everything solely on PBIR, and forming a massive stink with threats of boycotting, the racing/trackday community can take a stand with a different, more diplomatic approach. Be proactive. RRW provided a great model, which I'm sure that people down here would be very receptive to. Mission - RoadracingWorld Action Fund

just a thought.   To the fallen rider, may he rest in peace. At least he went while doing something he loved, which should be of some consolation to his family and friends.  



Touché sir,

When you say CCS, in Florida that's HDPromos not Texas.

I have presented a proactive course and recommendations to communicate in a positive and professional manner to the members of the JenningsGP and CCS Forums. My posts in "Track Safety" and "Safety at PBIR" respectively have definitely received attention and have been well received by a handful of active riders.

To your point and unfortunately so, HD and PBIR have not responded at all and I really don't expect them to. The responses have come from riders close to HD as third parties that respond to open forum inquiries with impressions or hear say, nothing first hand.

As far as "actions" by HD or PBIR at this time is a complete unknown. Again to your point, the RRW Action Fund Mission was previously presented as resource. Dr. Adams's articles are excellent and time will tell if the powers that be have the means to execute what is required. In bad times or good, the priority for safety is always first.


Steve Guanche
EX #15 FL
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: hamurobby on November 08, 2009, 10:48:11 AM
I have read the post here and contributed my thoughts on the jgp website as far as track rider safety. I would like to add to here as this is probably a more read by racer site than jgp. I dont have all the answers, and this is just my opinion formed from what I have seen, and it certainly does not address every issue pertaining to track safety or rider safety. I dont have all the experience in the world, I have raced for about 7 years off and on in the past 20 years, and watched track safety improve incrementally.  I have ventured to other tracks in the US and I dont find there to be much wrong with PBIR compared to the other tracks I have raced on. In fact, I feel it is one of the safest, second only to JGP, and I will tell you why. The biggest reason is pbir has relatively SLOW corners. Almost all of the corners are exited in second gear, and the track surface is almost glass smooth and has a huge amount of grip, and is the WIDEST track we race on, except for parts of Daytona. This gives a rider plenty of room to maneuver, make mistakes, etc, without running off the track. there is a huge mount of paved runoff at the end of the long straight (I know because I have used it, I wish RRR had half of it off t1). I want to clarify that I dont like walls, armco, stacks of tires, trees, telephone polls or anything of the sort near a racetrack, but the sad fact is, EVERY track, including jgp, has something dangerous about it. I also believe we should speak out about truly dangerous situations that exist, (and anything we dont like) and there are plenty of them on all tracks. There have been deaths at every track in the US, and there will continue to be as long as we ride on them. Its the nature of the game we play. The accident that happened at pbir, from what I hear (I was not there) was a two bike incident where one bike was redirected from contact with another bike. Now picture your favorite track and the one place you would not like to crash there, and imagine two bikes tangling up at speed and one of the bikes being redirected into something bad. Its probably not going to turn out very well. I can sit here and list the 9 tracks I have raced on and point out terrible places to run off just by yourself, and things that could go wrong, but you already know what and where these places are. (okay, t2 at Daytona, t3 at CMP, t12 at jgp, t12 at RA, under the bridge at VIR, t1 at RRR, t7 at homestead,darn near anywhere at Barber, and darn near anywhere you are above 2nd gear). The problem boils down to the fact that we are allowed to ride motorcycles on tracks that cars race on. We will never be able to sway track owners to remove hard barriers so we can have more run off, and in turn, loose all the revenue from car racing. We will never generate for them, enough money for the tracks to justify this. What very well may happen though, is we may be banned from racing motorcycles by the tracks themselves, for fear of bad publicity and pending lawsuits. Once this starts, even the safest tracks will follow, until there is no place to ride but the street. More air fence may be the answer, but where is all the money to come from? and how about the labor to put it up and take it down at every event? At VIR (I know, because I helped one time) it takes hours and hours of labor to put up and remove the airfence by dedicated cornerworkers that receive very little consideration for doing so. The cost will go up, and surprisingly it really hasnt over the years, but promotors have held down the cost, as racers just race more classes if they have the money to do so. The process of promoting racing has a double edge, there are two major competing sanctioning bodies. They have to be competitive with the cost of racing to both gain market share of the racing, but at the same time can not provide all the luxuries of massive amounts of airfence etc, because they cannot charge enough to make it all happen and racers participate.

The greatest part of racing with CCS, is the fact that both Kevin Elliot and Henry Degouw both were competitive racers in their past. They both know what it is like to be a racer, and what is right for the sport as a whole.

Before we ever raced at PBIR, Henry had expert Fla racers on the track running it in both directions and listened to feedback from them as to what was needed to make it as safe as possible. A decision was made to the direction and also placement of soft barriers in the most dangerous places. All the available resources were put in place, and racing resumed. The old PBIR (Moroso) was very treacherous, it was very narrow, very bumpy and surrounded by tire barriers and armco. The New track has its limitations, just like every RACE CAR track in the US we race motorcycles on, but is a far better racetrack for motorcycles than before. There is only ONE motorcycle only track in existence in the US, and thats JGP. Even jgp has its limitations to safety, as 4 people have lost their lives at jgp since it opened in 2001.  It was a terrible and unfortunate accident that happened, there is no disputing that, but I dont believe there is a direct place to put blame, it was, I believe, a racing incident. There is NO way to completely make safe, racing motorcycles on RACE CAR tracks or anywhere for that matter. I believe whole heartily that more rider education is the key to minimizing tragic consequences that can occur, and make racing motorcycles on RACE CAR tracks safer for all of us. So, if you are an experienced racer and can somehow find the time, warm up to a new or less experienced racer if they asked for advise and lend him or her a hand and some experienced opinion on what they are doing. Im sure somewhere in your past, someone has helped you to be a safer better rider.
Title: Re: Safety at PBIR
Post by: redlinepilot on November 09, 2009, 01:10:44 AM
Airfence Update, PBIR has placed a section of airfence where Isidro Castillo crashed.