H-D discontinued production of Buell motorcycles. :finger:
WOW..... are you serious?
I heard they were starting to sell well in Europe as well!
Hernan
Yeah...go to Buell.com Erik announces it today...tough to watch...someone will buy them,I would think.
Did you guys see Eric Buell's farewell video on the Buell homepage? Wow- very emotional. I feel for the guy. http://www.buell.com/en_us/
far cry different from his attitude at the Red Flag Fund auction.
http://www.buell.com/en_us/
it would be nice if they were purchased by some one. But H-D didn't even offer them up for sale. Just shit canned them.
If ever I was in the market for a cruiser, H-D is off my list.
Hmmmmm....perhaps there is a company out there with racing history that is/was looking to buy an existing brand.....that maybe fell through....and maybe they have the capitol lying around to buy a MC brand......
Penske, anyone?
Seriously- how badass would that be?
Food for thought.
Would be nice. Regardless of what you ride/race, it's better to have more bikes to compete against, and it's nice to have an option to buy an American motorcycle other than a cruiser. I know there are other "American" sports bikes out there, but they're a little out of the club racers price range.
I simply cannot imagine this being the absolute end....Harley bought MV...which is up for sale ..again...I would think Buell is much more valuable,marketable than MV.
Sad day indeed!
Whats is going to happen with DMG now ? That not only will Honda not be racing and now Buells gone! Not going to be good thats for sure.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/harley-posts-84-profit-drop-shuts-down-buell-2009-10-15
Evidently the Buell brand doesn't fit in HD's current marketing strategy. I don't know there exact marketing strategy, but an unscientific observation of their ridership would suggest that 55 year old, un-skilled, over-paid, tough-guy posers that couldn't turn a bike to save their life are not interested in riding a Buell. Erik made a turd fly... and HD can't even sell it!
Hopefully HD will sell the brand and Bombardier will buy them... considering they're already supplying the powertrain for the 1125R (like anybody ever believed HD had the competency to design a motor that good)
Interesting observation 123.......un-skilled,overpaid tough guy poser...I'm going to use that one :thumb:
Excuse my language. THIS FUCKING SUCKS!!!! Buell is a kickass company, I met and worked with many of the Buell people through the relationship with Pirelli and I can say that you will not find a finer group of people with more heart and love for a copany than those fine people at Buell motorcycles. I also had the great opportunity to sit with Erik and talk with him about the engineering aspects of the business, he truly is one of the great inspirations of this sport. I guarantee he will be up to something, and it will amaze us all again.
Good Luck to you Erik.
Dustin Boyd
Cyclepath Racing LLC
Pirelli Midwest
Bombardier, I believe is in no position to do that. They have a plant in Wisconsin that is laying people off as we speak.
Quote from: 123user on October 15, 2009, 11:15:33 AM
Evidently the Buell brand doesn't fit in HD's current marketing strategy. I don't know there exact marketing strategy, but an unscientific observation of their ridership would suggest that 55 year old, un-skilled, over-paid, tough-guy posers that couldn't turn a bike to save their life are not interested in riding a Buell. Erik made a turd fly... and HD can't even sell it!
Hopefully HD will sell the brand and Bombardier will buy them... considering they're already supplying the powertrain for the 1125R (like anybody ever believed HD had the competency to design a motor that good)
You were doing fine until the "55 year old" comment...... :kicknuts:
Hernan
Yeah- I agree. Someone will pick up the brand. Love them or hate them- Buell has been good for racing. Personally, I think the brand would prosper by getting as far away as possible from HD.
I still think Penske would be a great route for Buell to consider. I wonder if Erik retained rights to the name/brand when HD dropped it??? Will be interesting to see how this pans out.
This is really a sad day. Erik is such a great person as well as an innovator. I hope that somehow he is able to resurrect the mark in the near future. They were definitely on a better path once they started using the Rotax engines.
I am deeply saddend by this definitely agree that this is unfortunate and a bad thing for the racing community. However, being a finance guy I can certainly understand why this happened from the HD Corporate perspective. The Buell model's just don't fit with the core HD customer desires and unless there was a lot of allocated corporate overhead or high transfer prices on the HD motors in the Buell's then a capitalistic market dictates that management at HD needs to do what is in the interest of their shareholders and as a result they can not carry a non-viable loss making product line forever. I'm sure that they looked at cross-over shopping and sales from HD to Buell as well as from Buell to HD and just figured out that they were not acheiving what they wanted as well.
I suspect that the warranty issues prevent HD from doing anything else to dispose of Buell immediately. After some time or with the appropriate structuring of financial or insurance contracts they just may be able to do something to allow the name and certain designs to continue.
The real interesting question becomes - could Buell be a viable company on a stand alone basis and could it generate profits and cash flows if it was not subject to the financial structure, overheads and beaurocracy of a large corporate parent? Could it make sense as part of something other than HD given that the 1125 did get them away from solely being based on HD powerplants?
I deeply respect what Eric has done in the past and agree that he has come up with some very cool products. I wish him all of the best and sincerly hope that something gets resurected here.
George
Quote from: xb12racerX on October 15, 2009, 11:41:26 AM
Bombardier, I believe is in no position to do that. They have a plant in Wisconsin that is laying people off as we speak.
Just because they're laying off, doesn't mean anything. Bombardier is HUGE, Buell is tiny... if Bombardier stopped buying toilet paper for year, they could afford it. (they could use pages out of the AMA advertisement... oops! I meant magazine, instead) Buell would fill a hole in the Victory/Polaris lineup nicely... including the "american made" thing they love to spout. I would imagine that it would be a great "image" brand for them... and considering the times, I suspect Canadian Gov. might subsidize the purchase.
Nothing against our senior racers... but the stereotype of the old fart on a chrome harley just fits. I see these guys going down the Interstate at 60mph and wonder how any of them are still alive.
There's a reason why this happened...government.
http://www.foxpolitics.net/printerfriendly.iml?ID=35175
The state of Wisconsin decided that it was in the interest of the state to develop a new tax program called combined reporting. You'll notice from the article that it cost the Motor Company over $20,000,000 in this current economy. This is why this course of action came about.
It sucks a big shit pile.
this is bad news indeed, I just discovered that Buell racing was not just gang members on the race track. The Buell comunity is first rate, and the race support, (and contingency) is the best I have ever experienced. I have raced for 18 years, racing Buell for the past 2 years. I should have started sooner, Now the hard decisions, do I keep racing a Buell? or go back to Kawasaki?
Quote from: Super Dave on October 15, 2009, 02:03:38 PM
There's a reason why this happened...government.
http://www.foxpolitics.net/printerfriendly.iml?ID=35175
OK Dave - 2 question for you.
1) How is this tax change a cause to shut down Buell - I would think that a more appropriate action is to consider moving the HQ to a non-combined reporting state or, alternatively, to relocate the Buell factory if Buell somehow uniquely affected the Wisconsin tax issues.
2) What should the state be doing in order to continue to operate and provide public services in this environment? Tax revenues are down so they need to raise tax rates to make up for the deficit in the state budget - right?
Since you are pointing to this single issue as a causie for today's announcment on the closure of Buell I think its a fair question
George
from all reports, H-D is flat out closing Buell down and taking all of it's idea's and patents with it.
Doesn't sound like Buell has an option of being purchased by others.
Quote from: George_Linhart on October 15, 2009, 02:39:10 PM
OK Dave - 2 question for you.
1) How is this tax change a cause to shut down Buell - I would think that a more appropriate action is to consider moving the HQ to a non-combined reporting state or, alternatively, to relocate the Buell factory if Buell somehow uniquely affected the Wisconsin tax issues.
2) What should the state be doing in order to continue to operate and provide public services in this environment? Tax revenues are down so they need to raise tax rates to make up for the deficit in the state budget - right?
Since you are pointing to this single issue as a causie for today's announcment on the closure of Buell I think its a fair question
George
Actually, good questions. I don't have all the answers, but...
Moving Buell would not change the tax situation. It's part of the Motor Company.
Move Harley-Davidson's HQ? Well, Harley-Davidson has been here for a long, long, long time. Milwaukee is an integral part of the Motor Company's history. Having spent some time in the motorcycle industry, they just sell a whole lot of Milwaukee Iron in the state. Would a change like that dramatically affect their sales? I think it might.
Now, public services? There are too many. There is corruption. There is monopolization of services that could be provided by non government entities that would be more cost effective. Really brings up a whole number of issues. Wisconsin is right behind California in nearing collapse. It's from over spending and a host of issues. Meanwhile, Harley-Davidson has to make serious decision to entice voluntary investors and buyers of product in addition to maintaining their production with voluntary employees.
Buell, in the real scope, is small. Along with MV. Harley-Davidson continues to exist. They've cut out their trucking program and other things. I'm sure there are other people that know more about that. I think they also had to renegotiate the H-D union contracts. Again, Buell is small. What comes next with this climate?
Actually Dave, when non-government entities take over from the government the costs generally escalate. I cant think of an example when the private sector was able to do something as effectively as the government for the same amount of money. But then, that should be obvious, since there is no direct profit motive in the public sector as there is in the private sector.
It also seems disingenuous to suggest that there is corruption in government when compared to corporations in the private sector. Corporate america makes the government guys look like pikers in comparison.
Since more than 50% of federal tax revenue goes to support the military, would you recommend that we reduce military spending?
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 05:40:11 PM
Actually Dave, when non-government entities take over from the government the costs generally escalate. I cant think of an example when the private sector was able to do something as effectively as the government for the same amount of money. But then, that should be obvious, since there is no direct profit motive in the public sector as there is in the private sector.
Ah, profit motive. Maybe you could explain debt motive then...
You believe that profits are bad?
As for the government doing something effectively for less cost, provide examples.
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 05:40:11 PM
It also seems disingenuous to suggest that there is corruption in government when compared to corporations in the private sector. Corporate america makes the government guys look like pikers in comparison.
Really, Medicare/Medicaid already has fraud they do nothing about that is staggering. What examples are you providing?
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 05:40:11 PM
Since more than 50% of federal tax revenue goes to support the military, would you recommend that we reduce military spending?
Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
What does Wisconsin combined reporting have to do with the federal budget?
I dont believe that profit is bad at all, obviously, since I sold you a battery at profit. :)
What I do believe is that government services should be out of the private sector. Have been in the defense and intelligence sector for years, I can assure you that waste and corruption by corporations dwarves that of the govt.
I will wait for you to provide a case where the private sector saved taxpayer money. Again, since this was your claim
Quote from: Super Dave on October 15, 2009, 05:22:05 PM
Now, public services? There are too many. There is corruption. There is monopolization of services that could be provided by non government entities that would be more cost effective.
it should be up to you to back that claim up.
Its also funny that you mention Medicare, as they operate with something like 1% overhead, and provide care at far less cost than any private insurer. Im sure there is fraud in the system and it should be dealt with immediately, but where do you think Medicare fraud is coming from? Is it private hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies ripping off the government, or is it the government ripping off...itself?
Lastly, the Federal budget estimates that you linked dont actually break down spending that isnt included in the DoD budget, like after-care for troops (Tri, Va), the Dept of Energy (which is out Nuke arsenal) or "supplemental" spending on Iraq and Afghanistan, which add approximately $200 billion to that total alone.
Wisconsin combined reporting is part of a larger effort to recoup lost tax revenue from companies that are trying to "hide" revenue by going offshore. I cant do it with my business, and find it appalling that other corporations are doing it as a matter of course.
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 06:32:04 PM
I dont believe that profit is bad at all, obviously, since I sold you a battery at profit. :)
I hope so since I didn't buy one...
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 06:32:04 PM
I will wait for you to provide a case where the private sector saved taxpayer money. Again, since this was your claim
Actually, that's your claim.
The private sector is voluntary. So, it is about choice. Government does not allow choice. It is force. The force of a gun.
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 06:32:04 PM
Its also funny that you mention Medicare, as they operate with something like 1% overhead, and provide care at far less cost than any private insurer. Im sure there is fraud in the system and it should be dealt with immediately, but where do you think Medicare fraud is coming from? Is it private hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies ripping off the government, or is it the government ripping off...itself?
Well, why doesn't it deal with it immedately? Or even in five years? Ten? It isn't the government's money. It's yours taken by force.
As for ripping off, you obviously know the payment programs that Medicare has and the results of that. If I had bought a battery from you by force at a price that was 40-70% of your cost...
Even then, they have a higher rate of turning down their "customers" for services.
Quote from: Eye-p on October 15, 2009, 06:32:04 PM
Wisconsin combined reporting is part of a larger effort to recoup lost tax revenue from companies that are trying to "hide" revenue by going offshore. I cant do it with my business, and find it appalling that other corporations are doing it as a matter of course.
Really doesn't matter. It's not the government's money to take. Harley made it, it is removed by force. If that is what you believe and support, then that is your opinion.
Quote from: 123user on October 15, 2009, 01:22:18 PM
Nothing against our senior racers... but the stereotype of the old fart on a chrome harley just fits. I see these guys going down the Interstate at 60mph and wonder how any of them are still alive.
Don't worry at my age I forget what I read within ten minutes :biggrin:
Hernan
As bitter as this is for those who have really enjoyed this bike, Buell is only about 4-5% of Harley's units sold.
Harley's bleeding (again) and Buell was expendable. Damn shame. I feel terrible for Erik Buell, Henry Duga and all the good people whose brains, hard work and courage took the Buell brand as far as they did.
What now for the Buell CCS'ers? Bad day for many racing organizations
As far as this Buell racer is concerned, I'll be racing my XB in 2010 and will continue until I can't buy parts.
The bike still has a lot more than I can ring out of it so I have no reason to stop racing it.
I wish the season started this weekend, I'm already having withdrawal pains!
Actually, if it weren't for tuition and taxes...
http://www.ukeshd.com
that's where I'm headed in about 10 minutes. I want to see if it's real.
Whoa! 1125R's starting at $3995?!?!?!? I bet the DOC fee is like seven grand! lol
Quote from: Super Dave on October 15, 2009, 05:22:05 PM
Moving Buell would not change the tax situation. It's part of the Motor Company.
Move Harley-Davidson's HQ? Well, Harley-Davidson has been here for a long, long, long time. Milwaukee is an integral part of the Motor Company's history. Having spent some time in the motorcycle industry, they just sell a whole lot of Milwaukee Iron in the state. Would a change like that dramatically affect their sales? I think it might.
Ah - Dave, there is the rub. They do have the choice to move their HQ and if they choose not to because their analysis determined that their connection to Milwakee is such a vital part of their success that allows them to generate profits, shouldn't these profits be taxed by the city/state that gives rise to the ability to generate profit rather than allowing them to falsely export that profit to a lower tax rate state though tricks of accounting (internal cost allocations, transfer pricing, etc...)?
The efficiency and appropriateness of the federal, state and local goverments are a completely seperate issue. I'm with you that there is too much waste and that government itself has become too much of a source of profits for the individuals engaged in business of politics.
All of this said - I still don't see any direct causality between the state tax issues and the closure of Buell. It was coincidental at best, but certainly not a linear cause. I only point this out because your anti-government raving is making you sound more and more like a kook every day.
George
Quote from: xb12racerX on October 16, 2009, 10:35:23 AM
that's where I'm headed in about 10 minutes. I want to see if it's real.
Thats almost too good to pass up!
Sad day. As a former employee (1986 - 1990, loaded Buell #6 on a truck the day I started) I feel bad for the people that I worked with (and hired) who are still working there. Saw most of them about a month ago when I picked up Buell's donation for the RFF auction. I hope most of them stay employed.
this is a sorry deal in a long line of them lately.as a business owner i understand that some times you have to make cuts . but you also have to make a decision to carry on even with losses, like most business are doing now in the hopes that things will turn around. wallstreet and the government is keene to tell you things are turning around because they run on hopes . this is one more example that it's not. if it was then they would have cut production and rode it out. look at saturn now i here SK tools is on the rocks . a couple of weeks ago pat mooney was showing me his new 1125 what a nice bike he told me about how good the payout is so i go down to the harley megastore in town and they don't have any ( i did this once before when the xb12 came out) they only had one then.that's the problem they don't push the dealers to be in your face with them if the made each dealer take a couple a dozen or else then they would be on TV ,the newspaper at all the local bike night's selling them it's not a gsxer 1000 that sells itself you have to make an effort to sell it . no one's selling anything right now so that's no excuse to shut down permanently. our local metric megastore still has 07's. part of the problem i think is all the little bike dealers have been bought up we now have one store champions honda susuki kawasaki yamaha all in one building. so there's no loyalty and no profit. oh and ride now buy's cycle riders a year or so ago then pulls out now no ducati and i think no suzuki in orlando. just my 5 cents
Quote from: gearhead on October 15, 2009, 11:59:30 PM
As far as this Buell racer is concerned, I'll be racing my XB in 2010 and will continue until I can't buy parts.
The bike still has a lot more than I can ring out of it so I have no reason to stop racing it.
I wish the season started this weekend, I'm already having withdrawal pains!
What would you consider after then parts are scarce?
Quote from: xb12racerX on October 16, 2009, 10:35:23 AM
that's where I'm headed in about 10 minutes. I want to see if it's real.
Well?
I called this after noon about 3:00pm. They said they opened the doors this morning with 10 (I think he said) 1125R's. Five or so were 08's and five were 09's. They only had one left. $5800 out the door for the 09.
They had a couple cafe racers left.
Honestly, I don't know what else I'd race. Maybe I'll have to go back to a Duc, but unless I wreck this bike I'll go on with it. I wasn't doing it for the contingency money.
I'm not much of a reader.... nor economist, but a good book to read if you love to read about economy and things...
"The Great Boom Ahead" by Harry Dent. and "The Great Depression Ahead" by the same.
Basically, he predicted that the economy would come to this state by around 2007. It was predicted in one of his books he wrote in i think 1991. Like I said, read them if it interests you.
Anyways, back to the Buell tragedy.
Heard a rumor Yamaha may be intrerested in Buell.
For us who race Buell, the end is not quite as dark as it may seem.
Buell announced yesterday that they will support privateer racers through the 2010 season with parts but no contingency money.
HD will be responsible to continue supplying regular parts for the next seven years. So other than race only pieces, there should
be plenty of parts available to keep our Buells running strong for years to come.
I agree it's not perfect but...
Quote from: gearhead on October 17, 2009, 06:38:14 PM
For us who race Buell, the end is not quite as dark as it may seem.
Buell announced yesterday that they will support privateer racers through the 2010 season with parts but no contingency money.
HD will be responsible to continue supplying regular parts for the next seven years. So other than race only pieces, there should
be plenty of parts available to keep our Buells running strong for years to come.
I agree it's not perfect but...
7yrs...seems like a long time
i wouldn't worry about parts 748's are 8 yrs out and there's still alot of r and rs parts out there if they don't have any case or crank issues there should be plenty of parts for a long time. the way i work imay get one since i never seem to ride anything in production
Quote from: KTG on October 17, 2009, 07:55:38 PM
7yrs...seems like a long time
Especially for a race bike. Screeeecchhhh....thumpp..thumppp.....shhhhhhhttttt..... :banghead:
Quote from: dylanfan53 on October 16, 2009, 08:14:33 AM
Actually, if it weren't for tuition and taxes...
http://www.ukeshd.com
The folks at Uke's are really good people. They were a great help in getting Erik moving. Very entrenched in both Harley-Davidson and Buell as a long time dealer and as employees of both.
Hmmmm... I have been pondering this 'move' by H-D...
Let's see if I understand it correctly. (follow along to help me get all the points right..)
ONE - H-D intruduced a bunch of new models that arent' selling. (for reasons no one understands, in these fiscally tight times)
TWO - MV/Agusta (who with VERY little due dilligence you could tell wouldn't be profitable in a LONG TIME) has to go. So you put it up for sale.
THREE - Buell Motorcycles posted a PROFIT of something akin to $54 Millions - this year, in this economy. They had their best two years ever the last two (I thnk something like $128M last year) and as all of you know, were looking to grow even stronger in the next few years.
SO - It follows that there is the problem. Buell made money. They should have lost a ton of it, then maybe the parent would have kept them around. After all, I suppose the 'new' success is to loose as much as possible, then crow about it to attract investors. I'm sure most of the H-D investors are like the new CEO over there.. Not sure what a motorcycle is or does, but do know that T-Shirts and hats made in Malysia are a good bet for making money. Is the H-D plan to divest itself of all motor vehicle related items and concentrate on jewlery and clothing lines?
It makes no sense to me, but then what do I know about finance? I just have to try and keep my own books straight.
On a personal note. Erik and the 'Elves' at Buell were some of the nicest, most honest and friendly people I've ever had the pleasure to meet. All of them, from the person on the line attaching the wheels to the person answering the phone love motorcycles and what they did. They love motorcycle riders, no matter what brand you ride or how you ride it. Just so long as you rode. I will miss them the most. I can only hope that Mr. Buell and his staff find a new home, one where they can practice their craft and someday, bring back that feeling that all riders are good. All of us are worth talking too and sharing with. In 26 years Buell brought about revolutions in design that other brands are only now starting to use. They (in their time) created the most aerodynamic motorcycle ever (the body work is still used by LS racers to this day). They centered on the MOST important part of the riding experiance... The rider. Perhaps someone will pick up the baton they have been forced to drop and carry it on.
Thank you Erik, Flick, Henry and all the rest over there. As a team the only thing that couild have stopped you was... A myopic little man that hates motorcycles and the people that ride them almost as much as he hates success.
Thank you. For everything.
Oh. I picked up a new 1125R, 08, with the "full" bodywork. $5400 out the door.
At golf last night, my Uncle handed me a brouchure he got at his office yesterday from the Wisconsin Department of Commerce.
It was outlining why companies choose Wisconsin and how great Wisconsin is to their business.
Among the companies/owners profiled were:
the CEO of Culvers Restaurants
the CEO of Ariens lawn equipment
the CEO of Bucyrus Mining equipment
the CEO of Quad Graphics printing (Time, Playboy)
and
the chairman of Buell motorcycle- Erik Buell
Caption on photo of Erik- "Entering its 25th year as Harley-Davidsons sport bike division"
Erik- "Wisconsin is a great place for a motorcycle company. Where else in the world could you find a team of 180 people who can produce motorcycles that can win in the market against huge companies like Honda, BMW and Suzuki?"
ooops
-
was a great place for a motorcycle co. Sad.