I'm setting up a Daytona 675 to race next season and am looking for any input from those of you who have experience with this bike. My main concern at this point is suspension/geometry set-up, as I hear that the Daytona is particularly sensitive to this.
I will be replacing the stock rear shock and fork internals, and am thinking about using Penske and Race Tech components, respectively. I have also read that many pro teams use either an adjustable-offset triple clamp and/or adjustable swingarm pivot to get the geometry into the proper range for racing. Does anyone have experience with these? Keep in mind that I will be a first year expert next season, having raced amateur lightweight this year. I don't expect to be out there winning races, just want to get the bike to handle reasonably well on the track and focus on improving my riding skills. I've had it out for a couple track days this year, and it's a bit of a handful right now, especially on rough tracks.
At this point, I'm not planning on doing much as far as engine mods, but I would like to know what kind of gearing works well for Midwest region tracks. For those of you middleweight riders who don't ride Triumphs (i.e. almost everyone!), if you could tell me the kind of top speeds you're hitting on those tracks (especially BHF), I can do the math for the gearing. Also, do you use all six gears at BHF?
I'd appreciate any advice that anyone cares to offer on setting up a Daytona. Thanks!
Hey, Roy.
Sorry I didn't see this earlier. When reading this, bear in mind that I'm not the quickest guy out there (.18s at BHF) - I expect you'll have a slightly different experience once you get used to the bike.
Chassis-wise, the big thing is dropping the forks down the triple trees. I'm running the bottom of the caps at the top of the triple, a lot of people run them flush. If you don't do that it's tucky as hell. I've read Dave Moss' stuff about making inserts to get the swingarm angle right and all that, but I'm not noticing a big issue (doesn't spin up, doesn't push on the exit). For that matter, some of that is down to the tires you run, too. Running a 190 rear or switching to brands with different diameters could change things up a lot. I've never run anything but pirellis.
Replacing the shock and getting the forks revalved is a Good Thing - the stock Showa stuff is to stiff in high speed movement (or so I was told in '06 by Ed K.)
I run +2 in the rear most places. Other people do -1 front or other variations. I've run both stock and +2 at road america. +2 tops out on the straights, stock doesn't come off the bend quite as well.
I ride an 06 zx6 im not the fastest guy either last year was my first i dropped my times into .17's. I was running one down in the front in terms of gearing and on the front straight i didnt use 6th gear. Never really paid attention to my top speed so i wont be to much help there. i wanna say right around 135mph but im sure one of the more experienced guys could tell you exactly.
Thanks for the input, guys.
The Daytona is coming along. I had 4 and 6 Racing set up the geometry for me. They installed offset steering head bearings to adjust the trail. Previously, I had been running the forks with the caps about halfway down in the upper triple clamp. Now, the top of the fork caps are about 4mm below the top of the upper triple. That's using shorter top-out springs than stock, which make the forks about 4mm longer when fully extended. Otherwise, they'd still be 8mm below the top of the triple. I've re-sprung and re-valved the forks and I have a Penske triple-clicker in the back.
As for gearing, I'm thinking I'll try 15/48 for BHF. That's pretty short, and will probably require all six gears, but I think I'll try it. For Road America, I'm thinking 16/46. I was running stock (16/47) up there at a track day a while back, and with the bike in street form, I was still getting right up against redline with a tail wind on the front straight. Plus, the 675 runs out of steam as you get close to 14,000 rpm. I've still got to think about what I'll use for Heartland.
Thanks again for the comments.
Other than top end tracks like Daytona and Road America where you need the gearing, I would gear your bike more for places you personally feel are better shifting spots around the track. You don't really have to worry so much about squeezing 6th all the way out at a track like Blackhawk if you don't need to, you may find not having to shift so much by using gearing that has you only using 5th on the straight will prove more beneficial to your lap times. As far as Heartland Park goes I would imagine your gearing won't be too different from Blackhawk. :thumb:
nice little article in RRW about set ups for 675's just my 2bits, good luck. :cheers: March issue.
Yeah, I ran long gearing on my SV650 at Blackhawk last year to minimize shifting and found it to work a little better than gearing short and using 6th gear. Maybe that's the way to go with the Daytona, as well, but I thought I'd give it a try with shorter gearing and see how I like it. I do have a quick shifter and slipper clutch on the Daytona, neither of which I had on the SV, and I thought they'd somewhat minimize the penalty of the extra shifts, but I guess I'll just have to try it and see.
Also, just got the latest RRW in the mail. I'll check out the Daytona 675 article.
Roy,
If it helps, contact ASRA pro Mike Himmelsbach at Penske suspension directly here in Reading, Pa.- it may help if you told him I sent you-for advice/setup, etc. since it's not sale related.
If Mike can take the 675 back in it's maiden year of 06, and finish the year behind Wood on the Arclight GSXR6....he may, just may....have some solid info for you and save you a lot of time and wasted money..and he works for Penske now.......yeahhhh.
:cheers:
Thanks, Chris.
That's probably not a bad idea. I did actually by my shock directly from Penske last fall, but I didn't talk to Mike at that time. I did one track day last year with the shock installed, but I've made a few other suspension changes since then.
Roy, I'll agree with the Triumph chassis needing trail. I've been on two. Generally, we've always moved the forks so that the front end sat higher. Those offset bearings should help with that.
The one we really worked the set up, and found that the dampening wasn't really right even with a rebuild. So, back to Mike Himmelsbach at Penske...I think the early Penske's might not be as right as they could be. Hard to say what yours is from, but it might be worth looking into.
Additionally, Penske is going to have some replacement cartridges that are about as expensive as Race Tech valves installed. Scotty Ryan and Mike at Penske would be good resources for that.
Ask Lil Thorny. He's the fastest guy in the midwest on a 675. Last time I spoke with him he had alot to say about the chassis setup. You and I have spoken before but I'm +2t in the rear and that works well for both BHF and HPT. I only get to fifth gear. I believe thorny was geared much more aggressively. Looking forward to seeing you out there.
Dave, I remember talking with you about the Penske shock issue. I asked them about that when I ordered the shock last October, and they said that they had gotten that sorted out. I've only ridden the bike once with that shock, and that was before I revalved/resprung the forks and had the offset head bearings installed, so I still have a lot of sorting out to do. I'm looking forward to getting her back out on the track. I'm also curious to see what the Penske contingency is going to be, although I don't think that's going to be too much of a factor for me this season!
Tim, thanks for the info. I'm looking forward to racing with you this season. Will you be a HPT in April? Does Lil Thorny race in CCS, or somewhere else? Is there anyone else running Triumphs in CCS this year?
Phil Gordon races one in amateur stuff at HPT. Either way, Mike Himmelsbach should be a good resource to you.
I'm probably only in for BHF this year. Lil Thorny is his handle on this forum, i forget his name but met him at BHF last year.
There are not a lot of people racing the triumph but that makes it all the more fun. And they sound way cooler than inline fours.
Phil Gordon is a great guy to know at HPT. He was able to find spare parts between races for the 675 after my crash.
I've been running a 675 since 06 at HPT. Gearing: I feel best with a 15/48. SuperDave and Scotty spent a lot of time working with me over the last two years to get my suspension to work good at HPT. I run one of the original Penske double rears and had GP Suspension do my forks in late 06. GP removed my bottom dampening valve to get more travel.
Chassis setup: I have seen a few bikes that run their 675 forks flush with good results, but I have ran flush mounted forks and it seemed to tuck pretty consistently in Turn 7, 12 and 14. I run a few mm's below the face of the upper tripple clamp and like that better. I have tried a few times to find a way to lower the back end, but to my knowledge, Triumph still hasn't got a part number on the swingarm mount shims that were supposed to be out 2Q of 2006 !!. The rear shock upper mount is non adjustable, but if there is a way to get the rear end down a bit, I think the bike wouldn't need such a high-rise front end.
I got my Penske before Mike started officially working for them, and actually got to see the first Penske stuff at HPT in early 2006 on Mike H's bike that year and was very impressed. I always had wallowing issues under accel. out of turn 8 and couldn't figure it out til Scotty and Dave found that my rebound dampening wasn't working at all. Ended up having to rebuild the shock a couple times to get the rebound valve adjustment range within a useable area.
We ended up figuring out that anything you can do to get the back end down helps lap times. If you're at HPT in April, stop by. I'll be on the Red 675 still sporting yellow plates :ahhh: .
Phil
Thanks for the info, Phil.
I've got 15/48 gearing on the bike now, so I'll start with that at HPT. It sounds like my bike is set up very similarly to yours. I just bought my Penske shock last fall, so hopefully they have sorted out the issues that you had with yours.
I do plan on being at HPT in April, so I'll try to you look you up there.
Thanks again,
Roy
Sounds like a plan. See you there.
Grashpr did you run any CCS MA last year??
Quote from: honda60071 on March 08, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
Grashpr did you run any CCS MA last year??
I can help. No, he didn't.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 08, 2009, 08:33:28 PM
I can help. No, he didn't.
+1. I think I made 3 rounds of GP last year before blowing the motor. This year I'm on it though! Got a Backup bike plus a 2nd backup motor. Gotta Love Triumph.
Lil Thorny is Benji Thorton - He rides well... I think he did 2 races last season - after sitting out a couple seasons and was still able to get down into the 12's at BHF.... Not too shabby.....We just rebuilt Phil Gordon's 675 suspension - Front and rear... He sent the old original shock valving to me so that I could take a look at it - and I can understand why his shock worked like it did before Himmelsbach revalved it.. It's my understanding that the newer 675 Penske shocks have valving very similar to the update that Phil has now.... WIth that said you should be good there...
As far as the taller front end - That along with the offset bearings will be much better for feel....
Phil - I am interested in this rear shim that you are talking about - Can you email me a picture of the stock one with some dimensions? Might be able to make something happen with that - We do have a CNC machine shop and I might be able to employ Mark to make some of these....
Thanks, Scotty! Will you be at HPT for CCS in April? Or BHF on April 15?
That is the plan :)
Quote from: RoyHefner on March 29, 2009, 11:45:53 AM
Thanks, Scotty! Will you be at HPT for CCS in April? Or BHF on April 15?
Quote from: Scotty Ryan on March 29, 2009, 04:02:50 AM
Phil - I am interested in this rear shim that you are talking about - Can you email me a picture of the stock one with some dimensions? Might be able to make something happen with that - We do have a CNC machine shop and I might be able to employ Mark to make some of these....
The shim is the swingarm location bolt surround. It's kind of like the old ZX7RR's, just not as much adjustability. Triumph still hasn't offered the offset bolt surrounds so you can actually make use of the adjustable locator. Just have to use a different setup on the bolt sleeve shim. I have spare setup in the basement, I'll give it to you to play with when you come down for HPT's first round.
I'd sure like to get more info on this offset steering stem bearing nonsense... got any part numbers?
Quote from: Grashopr on April 01, 2009, 06:13:39 PM
I'd sure like to get more info on this offset steering stem bearing nonsense... got any part numbers?
I'd also like to hear more.
And as far as the swing-arm pivot adjustment goes, I thought I'd heard the Augusta Triumph guys were making a few of those. I'd imagine it wouldn't be a hard machining job.
QuoteI'd sure like to get more info on this offset steering stem bearing nonsense... got any part numbers?
4 & 6 Racing here in the Chicago area installed the offset steering head bearings for me. Unfortunately, they recently went out of business. I believe that they got the offset bearing inserts from an outside source, as opposed to machining them themselves, but I'm not certain. I might be able to contact one of their previous employees and see if I can find out any more info on their source for the inserts.
I do know that Attack Performance makes adjustable offset triple clamps for the Daytona, which is another option.
Roy,
FYI, Jimmy is making some BIG promises about your performance this year. Last I heard he had you taking the first Triumph to sub 10's at BHF. Somebody has to do it, may as well be you.
Scotty - If you need someone to do some CAD files / Drawings for you on that kind of stuff let me know.
QuoteFYI, Jimmy is making some BIG promises about your performance this year. Last I heard he had you taking the first Triumph to sub 10's at BHF.
He said what??!!! Sub 10s?!! :lmao: I think he may be exaggerating my abilities just a bit! I just hope not to embarrass myself out there in my first season with white plates!