http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jul/080719a.htm
Ok..here's my take on it...So basically they just renamed Superbike=Factory Superbike, Superstock=American Superbike, FX=Daytona Superbike.
more or less
but............ are getting lots more money from the homologation list of approved pieces and tires, fuel for two classes.
Do we get pace cars and rolling starts? Do we get the "lucky dog" during the yellow flags? How about Darrell Waltrip doing commentary?:biggrin:
Damn I'm bored. :lmao:
Whoever saw the AMA Superbike race today - What did you think??? Personaly I thought the battle for 3rd-6th was better then the Mladin/Spies runaway.... Watching the World Superbike race today was really neat - a battle the whole way.....
If the new rules - make the racing closer - Then I'm all for it........
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 20, 2008, 09:27:15 PM
Do we get pace cars and rolling starts? Do we get the "lucky dog" during the yellow flags? How about Darrell Waltrip doing commentary?:biggrin:
Damn I'm bored. :lmao:
I hate NASCAR with a passion I can't describe and I'll STILL take DW over any current commentator doing AMA right now :)
So they basically kept all the classes except for the one that has traditionally been the best to watch... supersport... yeah, that makes sense. Supersport and Superbike are pretty much the only classes you need and I don't know why it's so difficult to understand.
At first I read it and said, thank you baby Jesus.
Then I realized Supersport kicked the bucket. I, for one, shall continue to bitch.
And enjoy the Superbike races. All is not lost. I'm honestly hoping for the best for American motorcycle racing.
Always the superfan,
Heather
When you read these rules they are not at all the same. For 1000's its pretty good, I like it. . But for 600 they are trying what I expected would happen. They want to give the Buell an advantage. They want those Harley fans somehow to get involved. With those rules there is no way they will get 140 hp out of a 600. These are not the Formula Extream rules like everyone is thinking. What kind of horsepower is the new Buell putting out stock?
Check them out
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33334
the harley fans with a lot of cash. what a stupid idea! ::)
The Buell has about 120rwhp. 146 at the crank is what I've heard. I don't see that being a huge advantage.
How dare they try to involve other manufacturer's!
I don't care if they involve them as long as its a fare race. I don't think it will work to get the Harley riders. They don't care about racing.
Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 20, 2008, 09:27:15 PM
Do we get pace cars and rolling starts? Do we get the "lucky dog" during the yellow flags? How about Darrell Waltrip doing commentary?:biggrin:
Boogadee boogadee boogadee! Let's go racing boys!!
LOLOLOLOL
Damn I'm bored. :lmao:
.lol if anything good comes of this I hope the give the axe to Freddie Spencer.
Anyone had a peak at the drafted rules yet?
Quote
Daytona Superbike departs from the traditional displacement and weight regulations and introduces power-to-weight and dynamometer controls to limit horsepower. This class is expected to be contested mostly by 600cc four-cylinder motorcycles, however the rules will provide for close competition with 675cc triples and up to 1200cc twins.
If they let the Buell in what about the KTM & more importantly the 1098/S/R, granted a bit detuned maybe... but still, or are they going to outlaw the real 1200cc twins and bump them up to American & Factory superbike?
Quote from: cardzilla on July 21, 2008, 04:45:56 AM
I hate NASCAR with a passion I can't describe and I'll STILL take DW over any current commentator doing AMA right now :)
DW is a nice guy. I prefer nascar from back in his era. When teh race cars looked ALOT like the street cars and not a 4dr converted to a 2dr.
Quote from: Jason748 on July 21, 2008, 11:30:20 PM
Anyone had a peak at the drafted rules yet?
If they let the Buell in what about the KTM & more importantly the 1098/S/R, granted a bit detuned maybe... but still, or are they going to outlaw the real 1200cc twins and bump them up to American & Factory superbike?
Ducati can run the 848. Go figure.
well so far with the same bikes running none have won a race it has been the 600 winning them all
the 848 and the bmw make a good showing in the race. and do buells even finish races?
Quote from: Garywc on July 22, 2008, 08:17:40 AM
well so far with the same bikes running none have won a race it has been the 600 winning them all
the 848 and the bmw make a good showing in the race. and do buells even finish races?
Yea but these are not formula X rules. That is what everyone its thinking but it isn't so. They are more SS. And I understand a 1200CC Pushrod engine racing a 600 but not a 1200cc DOHC. Just seems strange. Maybe the HP limits will solve it don't know
Quote from: Garywc on July 22, 2008, 08:17:40 AMand do buells even finish races?
Given the sucess of Buells in MOTO-ST endurance racing, I would say yes...
With the HP and rules restrictions, this could be close multi-brand racing. That would be cool.
I'm still gonna miss 600 SuperSport though.
I guess we just have to wait and see how it goes.
Yea, I seam to remember seeing a purposed list that it was actually pushrod & air cooled Twins up to 1200cc with the watercooled twins up to 1200cc where they belong... I guess we'll have to wait and see the rules when the publish them.
I'm optimistic that it'll be close racing and hopefully with more than just usual suspects at the front.
The rules are published.
Apparently a liquid cooled 1125cc DOHC twin is comparable to a 600 i-four as long as it says buell on the side.
On paper the Buell's engine is comparable to a Ducati 1098, but it gets to race against 600s while the Ducati has to race 1000s..... :err:
the 1125R and the 1098R aren't even close.
Buell is 146hp
1098S is 160hp
1098R is 180hp
i would like to see the bikes with the same horsepower, weight, tires and fuel then we will see who is the better rider.
Quote from: xb9racer on July 22, 2008, 02:38:07 PM
the 1125R and the 1098R aren't even close.
No, they're not. Who's fault is that?
You're the bitching that they are in different classes. The point is there is a reason, not because one says Buell and one doesn't. That's a rather large HP difference. Buell never made the 1125 to compete with the 1098. What exactly is your point?
Oh good grief. It's a horsepower restricted class. What difference does it make that the 848 is legal and the 1098 is not?? What matters is that there are Ducatis, Buells, Triumphs, and other interesting bikes out there competing. Many of us simply don't care to see Japan, Inc. race each other on virtually identical bikes that look the same, sound the same and essentially are the same. Zzzzzzz.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing and hearing the other bikes out there.
its not about the bike man lol lol lol
i think they call it a superbike
Don't worry guys, they'll "NASCAR" it up by somehow penalizing any bike that shows it can be dominant. The engineer in me says that's crap, but it will make for closer racing. The problem I see from a mfr's standpoint is that racing is a showcase and if your bike is dominant you want to show that so you can also dominate the sales market... if they strap lead to your bike to slow it down then what's in it for you? I know this isn't part of the rules yet, but you can bet something like it will be.
Also, those arguing about HP limits are forgetting one thing : it's not the PEAK power, but the area under the HP curve that really matters. If you limit top end to something below a bikes usual HP output, and said bike is generally tuned for that HP number then you gain a huge advantage by being able to retune for area under the curve vs. the guy whose bike came stock with that same HP limit.
Quote from: xb9racer on July 22, 2008, 08:00:41 PM
You're the bitching that they are in different classes. The point is there is a reason, not because one says Buell and one doesn't. That's a rather large HP difference. Buell never made the 1125 to compete with the 1098. What exactly is your point?
If a bike isn't competitive in the class that it fits into based on it's displacement and engine configuration, it's not the sanctioning bodies responsibility to re-classify it so it can be competitive.
When Ilmor's MotoGP bike was too slow to compete, they didn't let them race it against 250s. Classes are based on displacement for a reason, It's objective.
Quote from: StumpysWife on July 21, 2008, 10:29:30 AM
Then I realized Supersport kicked the bucket. I, for one, shall continue to bitch.
Supersport used to be about production bikes. As it grew, it became more about production parts too that weren't available to everyone.
While I like Supersport, I think AMA Daytona Superbike allows for the production based racing to continue, eliminates some issues, but it also allows for some individual innovations in machine selection, etc.
It will be fine.
JB your arguement isn't objective when you base it on displacement when DMG's stated goal is provide a competition balance that makes for close racing. Somehow Buell can run a 1125 LC V-twin but Ducati can't is another issue altogether. As for 848 not being competitive with 600's remove the factory backed Honda's and Larry Pegram would be leading FX on what amounts to a private effort. Who knows how this will all play out in AMA/DMG racing. I still find it ironic (moronic?) that people on this forum consider DMG - NASCAR when they are really the guys behind GrandAm. I agree with the squirrel jerky eater, it will be fine. Right tOm
Were all morns the mans says.
"Jim France, Vice Chairman/Executive Vice President of NASCAR"
Quote from: Ducati23 on July 24, 2008, 02:29:33 PM
JB your arguement isn't objective when you base it on displacement when DMG's stated goal is provide a competition balance that makes for close racing. Somehow Buell can run a 1125 LC V-twin but Ducati can't is another issue altogether. As for 848 not being competitive with 600's remove the factory backed Honda's and Larry Pegram would be leading FX on what amounts to a private effort. Who knows how this will all play out in AMA/DMG racing. I still find it ironic (moronic?) that people on this forum consider DMG - NASCAR when they are really the guys behind GrandAm. I agree with the squirrel jerky eater, it will be fine. Right tOm
Yes we are moronic
"Jim France, Vice Chairman/Executive Vice President of NASCAR"
Guys it's not that big of a deal. It's basically Supersport rules with spec fuel, spec tire and 1 to 3 hp.
Basically, a Supersport Suzuki will be able to make 120 hp at the rear wheel. Our bikes weigh 362 without any fuel in them.
Therefore, we will have to detune our bikes even with a spec fuel to be under the hp limit.
As for the Buell or BMW's, you have to remember a lot has to do with how easy those bikes are to get around a corner, accelerate, etc. I think you will still see the same japanese bikes up front with the same riders.
I think the racing will be really good though in Daytona Superbike with a freight train of people vying for a win.
Quote from: ktd on July 25, 2008, 10:32:07 AM
Were all morns the mans says.
"Jim France, Vice Chairman/Executive Vice President of NASCAR"
Yes we are moronic
um...Roger Edmondson seems to be more in charge than Jim...all of the press releases, rules, ect....are coming from Roger....
and if you recall he was the founder of the CCS, currently the President of the Grand American Series, and head of Moto-ST....
Sure NASCAR and the France family have input...but this is more Roger's baby.
The genius of Edmonson utilizing the money of nascar, let it roll and iron out the squirmy details later.
The idea of dyno limited classes is great, but like all great ideas......
With today's electronics, it is too easy to cheat, and nearly impossible to regulate. If you've ever raced ASRA or MotoST (or have an in depth knowledge of ECU technology) you know this. I raced ASRA Daytona, and in qualifying I was passed on the banking by BMW's that were making 12 HP less than me, but despite thier greater size and weight, were somehow magically 20MPH faster on the top end....(and don't give me that business about corner exit drives, either...redline in 6th is redline in 6th!) Yes, these guys were better riders, but don't tell me there's no cheating going on.
As for the rest of the classes, I like the idea of FIM Superbikes, but I thought the whole reason for getting rid of Superstock was because it was repetitive... but two Superbike classes is not? And Supersport, the most exciting and competitive class, is gone!
Quote from: Gino230 on July 29, 2008, 11:53:34 PM
The idea of dyno limited classes is great, but like all great ideas......
With today's electronics, it is too easy to cheat, and nearly impossible to regulate. If you've ever raced ASRA or MotoST (or have an in depth knowledge of ECU technology) you know this. I raced ASRA Daytona, and in qualifying I was passed on the banking by BMW's that were making 12 HP less than me, but despite thier greater size and weight, were somehow magically 20MPH faster on the top end....(and don't give me that business about corner exit drives, either...redline in 6th is redline in 6th!) Yes, these guys were better riders, but don't tell me there's no cheating going on.
As for the rest of the classes, I like the idea of FIM Superbikes, but I thought the whole reason for getting rid of Superstock was because it was repetitive... but two Superbike classes is not? And Supersport, the most exciting and competitive class, is gone!
I have to disagree there. I understand that people will cheat, but my one Moto-ST experience was on a pretty much bone stock Superhawk in the first 8 hr event and I was amazed at how I could hang with any top bike out there. I passed the lead SV1000 several times using the draft in fact (too bad for the chicane). A lot goes into top speed, tuck position, rider weight, bike attitude on the bank, tire pressure, gearing, tire growth, etc... so don't necessarily assume you're getting hosed by a cheater, it's been my experience in racing that most times you think someone's cheating, they're not.