Guys,
Anyone ever do this before? I have a fellow NESBA member who has a bike for sale. This bike will only be used for racing and for track days. He says he doesn't have a title for it. He bought it from a racer with only a sales agreement, and he would do the same for me.
This is a great bike and a good price. I just want to know how I can cover my ass. Again, this bike will never be registered. Only track days with NESBA and races with CCS. I know CCS requires an unaltered VIN plate, but do you have to have the title?
Thanks!
Bongo
There's lots of race bikes that end up that way so, I wouldn't sweat that too much. Someone doesn't ever plan to put it on the street so, they don't bother registering it, yadda yadda - it happens.
...But, there's the oft told tale of the fuzz showing up at some Texas track and seizing all the bikes that didn't have any sort of proof of ownership. Scary!
I bought a racebike (the one before i have now) with no title, bill of sale, nothin. It was a race bike. I rode it till i got better and had to get a better bike. I sold it the next season to a guy (he races in louden) with the same thing, no title, or bill of sale. I see he is still racing it. I got to run with him a little bit last year at VIR ;D
The bike I am racing now I bought early in last years season. I did get a title signed over to me but since i didn't want to have to pay property tax on it I never transfered it over. I still got it, but havn't done anything with it :-/
So if you have no intention of putting it on the street ever again, and you are pretty sure it ain't stollen, GO FOR IT.
I mean would you title a racing go-kart, or scooter?
If the bike was checked during one of our paddock sweeps and comes up with altered VIN. numbers or worse, stolen. Your bike will go out on a hook and you will have some "bracelets" to wear.We do this because of bike theft rings that steal bikes and sell them to racers. Don't be fooled by a deal that seems too good to be true.Because it usually turns out to be stolen. If they have a title you don't need to register it for the street and you know it is not stolen. It's not just Florida but all over the USA. Don't help these "fools" and their dirty business.
HD
Why doesn't it have a title? Somebody bought it from a dealer somewhere. I have no title for my own bike, but the frame and cases say "FOR RACE USE ONLY" as the bike was assembled from parts and I got a bill of sale with reciepts for the major pieces. Be aware, it may be just a good deal, but think where did it come from. Somebody has paper somewhere.
I know the salvage laws are a little wacky in illinois.
I am a licensed rebuilder in Illinois. That means I can legally own and purchase salvage vehicles. I can not sell a salvage titled vehicle to an illinois resident that does not have a rebuilders license. If I do, it is as a bill of sale only, no title will be exchanged. If your out of the state, I don't care and either does Illinois. Its not up to me or the state of Illinois to enforce salvage laws in other states.
Yes, it is very hard to get a rebuilders license in illinois.
Your best bet is to call the secretary of state police, give them the vin # and have them check it out for you. then you are covered. No I do not have their # handy, sorry, a little surfing on the web will get you what you need.
QuoteIf the bike was checked during one of our paddock sweeps and comes up with altered VIN. numbers or worse, stolen.
When/where has there ever been a paddock sweep? I'm curious as I haven't seen one in the last 3 years in the MW...
FWIW, my bike has a salvage title somewhere signed over from my insurance company back to me. However, if I were to sell it, I'd be hard pressed to find the doc and would likely just provide a bill of sale.
Then again, I know where my bike came from...
My bike has a custom frame, and therefore no VIN numbers. HD, you know the bike's history (Mattson - Butch - Me). I'm assuming I'm ok if the cops come rumbling through, right? It was built by Mattson as an AMA race bike from a kit, but based on a Duc...is there a gray area I should worry about here?
ok guys ask yourself this. You are driving across country with your shiny new racebike that you got a great deal on, but no title, in your trailer. You get pulled over by a state trooper who isn't in the best of moods. He decides that he wants to take a look inside your trailer. Then he decides to run vin#'s. etc. Is a good deal worth going to jail over? Even if it works out in the end, is the time wasted and the extra hassle worth it? No, there haven't been any track sweeps lately, but whos to say we won't have one this year. And, if they do what will they find? All it takes is to find one stolen bike and we will all be considered thieves. All I'm saying is have the vin# ran, if it comes back clean get a bill of sale. Cover your ass. My .02
What about race bikes with a custom frame and no vin #???
Whoever bought the cusom frame paid for it and got a recipt. Even if it was a sponsored free frame, they had a shipping order or something to say it was free from the manufacturer.
Custom bikes, kit bikes, etc. you should have recipts for the parts. Race bikes will have a statement of origin like a dirt bike. Any street bike should have a title even if it's a salvage title.
Don't take the chance if you can't get any proof of ownership. Get the vin# and have a copper run it to see if it's legal or not before you buy. If the guy won't let you run the # you know something is wrong. If the vin# is altered or missing .... stay away for sure.
A "good deal" on a bike isn't worth the trouble of getting busted for possessing stolen merchandise ..... and vehicle theft is a felony. :P
All those things that you know would never happen to you may just come up, like the copper on the road or the sweep at a race or just a tech guy thinking your vin# doesn't look right. That happened
a few years back at Blackhawk and if memory serves me the cops took the guy away in shiny bracelets.
And think of this ..... buying a bike your not sure of only makes the thieves look for more bikes to steal because they know there is a market for them. You buy a stolen bike, you are the same as the thief in my book, because you are supporting their bullshit.
Several years ago, John and his then-wife were campaigning their fuel bike at a dragstrip in Texas when there WAS a sweep... and more than a few unhappy people whose machines were hauled away.
They have had a few paddoc sweeps down south. When I lived in Florida, bike theft was a real problem. I had 4 bikes stolen from me and they were locked down in very public places. One of the bikes was returned to me later in pieces when one of the local racers that I knew figured out it was mine (he had already started parting it out). I got it back under the condition that I would not complain to the cops.
They used to do random checks at Moroso and I remember reading about some of them happening in Texas. I think that paperwork definetly makes it a lot easier in the long run.
Up in the Midwest the theft problem is not so bad, so I would believe that is part of the reason they have not had one here.
QuoteWhat about race bikes with a custom frame and no vin #???
This may be of no great help because I am not sure of a manufacturer of aftermarket frames in the U.S., but try calling a company like harris in the U.K.. If that long disatnce call sounds too pricey, they have a distributor in the U.S. that advertises in RW. These guys must be familiar with your inquiry.
Matt
Ok, there are questions about custom frames and stuff. Is this a custom built bike you are talking about or a production bike that should have a title?
Can someone explain this to me? When they do a "sweep," do they just run the VINs? Or, do you have to produce some proof of ownership at the track?
Also, If that story in TX did happen, how can you be forced to show proof of ownership? The vehicle is not on the street, and thus how can the po-po take any action for not showing proof of ownership? Jeez, I better start saving receipts for all my clothes and carrying them with me, as well as anything I own. Wouldn't want the cops to haul me away and impound my riding lawn mower because I can't show proof of ownership. ::)
They usually run the numbers only and if something comes back hot, they take you and the bike.
The incident in Texas was notorious because they wanted people to have titles or registrations with them even if they were gp bikes. Some of the guys did not have the info with them so the bikes were impounded until they could produce something to show they owned the bike.
QuoteCan someone explain this to me? When they do a "sweep," do they just run the VINs? Or, do you have to produce some proof of ownership at the track?
Also, If that story in TX did happen, how can you be forced to show proof of ownership? The vehicle is not on the street, and thus how can the po-po take any action for not showing proof of ownership? Jeez, I better start saving receipts for all my clothes and carrying them with me, as well as anything I own. Wouldn't want the cops to haul me away and impound my riding lawn mower because I can't show proof of ownership. ::)
Your bike is not on the street, but it carries suspicions of being "stolen property". So they could, with or without proper approval run your Vin # as a part of an "investigation or raid".
If you are wearing a $10,000 suit, you better have proof that you had bought it, or they could crack down you on too.
I would gladly welcome a police sweep. It would most likely be easiest to just check for anything that appears to have an altered VIN because that typically indicates there is something drastically wrong. I would never buy a bike without a minimum of a bill of sale and for street bikes I would want a title or MSO as well as unaltered VIN's. Without either of those look elsewhere.
Here is what to do to protect yourself if you already own a bike without a title, but you have the proper paperwork (bill of sale) or proof of ownership.
Get a "Bonded Title". I few years ago, I purchased a TL-R to race and the seller did not have the title. I was fairly confident the guy legitimately owned the bike, but just never transferred the title into his name since it was purely a track bike. I paid for the bike and asked for a bill of sale listing his name, address, make model and VIN# of the TL-R.
I contacted the state DOT and got an application for a bonded title. I filled out the application and sent it in along with photos of the bike, the bill of sale and a tracing of the VIN# on the frame. The state sent me back a bond form, which I took to my insurance company and paid $200 for a $14,000 bond (1-1/2 times the NADA value of the bike). I sent the bond form back to the state. Once they have the bond, the state ran a stolen vehicle check using the VIN#.
If the VIN comes back as a stolen vehicle, the insurance bond pays the lossee (either the insurance company that paid out a claim on the bike or the owner if they had no insurance) the value of the claim and the person who paid for the bond gets legal ownership of the stolen vehicle and the state will then issue a title.
My VIN came back clear, so the bond paid out nothing, and the state sent out an inspector to check the bike and VIN then gave me a clean title (no salvage or other such designation). The bond lasts three years, so if at any time within 3 years the bike is reported stolen, my bond pays the lossee.
It was a bit of a hassle, but I got a clean title and ended up selling it as a streetbike a year later.
Hope this helps. I live in Iowa, but I am sure every state has some similar service.