I havent raced with ccs in two years so i dont know the answer to these questions. i looked in the rulebook, but one section is unclear.
First, can a desleeved SV600 run in ultralight sbk? the rulebook says pre 1999, but there's nothing for post 99 bikes for twin cylinder liquid cooled bikes of any cc's.
Second, what all bikes can run in lwt supersport? can the duc 1000's and buells run in this?
thanks
kris wall
1. Superbike is pretty open on mods but that is 1 of 6 aspects that is controlled.
6.2.1.C. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet
lower class displacement limits is not allowed. (i.e. a bike that is a
Heavyweight in origin cannot be re-sized for Middleweight
competition.
2. Some depends on models.
thanks, that answers that one.
cheater.
and yes the other cheaters can run LWSS (ducs and buells) :biggrin:
I just don't see a 1000 anything being Lightweight although the rules allow it.
Mark - the CCS LW grids have some good performance parity while avoiding the look of an SV cup. In the Mid West region the class finishes are generally SV, Buell and a Ducati 750SS. It is still primarilly about rider skill and bike set-up - there is no piece of equipment that makes that equation obsolete.
Others have raised this argument time and time again - if you are racing LW and think one of the other bikes has such a big advantage, nothing to stop you from going out and buying one to race... There is a reason the SVs are still so popular in the LW class and are not being entirely replaced. Frankly, a water cooled 4 valve twin has significant advantates against the two valve air cooled twins by either Buell or Ducati even with the displacement advantage. With a liquid cooled engine you can build a lot more power reliably where the air-cooled motors have real issues becoming a large heat sink.
George
George, you're kind of like a broken record, aren't you?
Your point?
I've got an opinion - I'm not bashful about it and I'm happy to share it with others. The subject seems to come up often with certain factions who seem to want to change rules to reduce the level of competition.
Don't like it - feel free to ignore it...
George
George,
I hear what you say and they are some good points. this will be a neverending debate long after we are done with it-always has been.
Here in Florida the Duc 1000DS seems to rule the roost in the LW classes especially in the supersport trim. Duc in SS trim is about 95 rwhp where as the SV in SS trim is 75 rwhp. Where is the parity? The Duc DS seems pretty reliable with that much HP.
Mark
Ben, now you both sound like broken records! :whine:
The 1000ss is fast, but only if ridden well.
Mark,
1000ss Horsepower claims are highly exagerated. On a factory Pro dyno, mine pulled 77 hp. That's only about 88 on a whirly-jig dyno. A properly built SV in SS trim is probably only 8 hp down... but doesn't stop revving at 8000rpm
The SV is no different then the hawk or FZR, move on or move over!
Mark,
Is it the bikes, or the riders that are winning? Were the same guys that are now winning on the 1000DS back of the pack on other bikes previously, or have the names on the top of the list stayed the same while the bikes changed?
In all seriousness I do think you need to also look at the larger LW class and allow for changes under full Super bike rules because SS is just one single category of the LW class. Under full Superbike rules, if done right the SV is at no disadvantage. Look at Ed Key's bike for the definitive example.
With all due respect to Mr. Probst, I will re-loop my broken record. If the 1000DS is such the cat's meow in Florida and leads to instant on track success there is nothing to stop you from buying one! Even if we can prove that it is a better bike in SS trim, is evolution bad? Should we change the rules to go back to restrict LW classes to EX500's, FZR400's and Honda Hawks?
George
Ben,
I think George is probably right. We both run 1000ss. His is SB spec, mine is SS spec. I can tell you there is a difference in power between the two. Just look at my results from this year... a faster bike hasn't made me any more talented!
You should come over and ride mine some time, we can go down below Potosi and do some speed blasts on highway Z.
Having a bike that only overrevs to 8.7K is more challenging to ride that a bike that peaks at 9.5K, but can be overreved to 11.5K.
A good comparison is between 250MX'r and a xr400. Sure the thumpers got more power, but its heavy, the front wheel is 4 inch's further foward than it seems, and its hard to start. A 250 has got good overrev, a xr400 has none.
I bought the Duc. because it was a good deal and I like having something to complain about/work on. An SV is a good choice for people that don't want to keep $300 worth of shims laying around, or who doesn't want to replace clutch plates twice per season, or wants to buy spares without spending a small fortune, or doesn't change oil every weekend, or doesn't like buying tires.
The SV was and remains the best lightweight bike for the masses. Most people simply don't have the desire or time to maintain an Italian bike.
From what I can tell, I'm the only person in CCS midwest with a dual spark ducati that has run every single weekend this season. Really, if your not going to all the races, worrying about class suitability is pretty irrational.
Quote from: George_Linhart on August 08, 2007, 10:35:43 AMShould we change the rules to go back to restrict LW classes to EX500's, FZR400's and Honda Hawks?
No, but everyone with those bikes wishes that the Duc 750 wasn't allowed in UltraLW. Then again, if we didn't have them, we probably wouldn't have a class in the midwest where we're even remotely competitive so really I don't mind. (And I like Barney and the other guys who run them.) Whatev's. A lot of it is still about the rider. Put me on a Duc 750 and I'm still not going to be winning any races. I'm just happy to have a class to run in.
The funny thing to me about the original post is that the class that desleeved SV runs in with WERA doesn't allow built Hawks.
Amen Scott!
I could have bought two SS spec SV650's or one well sorted SB SV650 for what I have into my 1000DS - and we are still working out bugs. I am done racing for the year because of another catestrophic failure (occured on Lap 1 of the Thunderbike race at Road America).
What I have learned first hand is that the Ducatis consistently take a lot of tinkering and when things go wrong they are very expensive. Unlike Scott, I am not nearly as handy with the tools and I do rely on a mechanic to do a lot of the work so it probably isn't the best track weapon for my skill set. That said, I have always wanted to race a Ducati - its something about the sound and the feel which is just different.
Once I have the bugs out it should be pretty reliable and I believe it will be very fast; however, in retrospect and with emotional issues asside I believe I would have been better off getting an SV650 and spending the extra money on more track time and doing a weekend at the Freddie Spencer school.
George
Reliable Ducati.... oxymoron. I easily spend 15-20 hrs of prep. time after each weekend. Some of its just regular stuff like cleaning, but doing the valves is time consuming, but also pulling the filter screen, retightening every bolt. I'm pretty handy and can do a complete valve lash (every valve needs changing- opener and closer) in about 3 hours.
A lot of racers couldn't find a ducati valve in 3 hours... there's a reason why there isn't a full grid of Ducs.
By the way George, I added a second oil cooler- temp stays constant at 250F. Stop by and see it at the next race.
I raced a "built" hawk for two years, and did fairly well last year on it. I decided it was a "put up or shut up" sort of deal- thus I'm on a new bike this year. Paul Onley figured out the same thing on his Hawk... Instead of complaining, he bought an SV
Again, if your not racing a full season... your not really serious about winning are you? In which case, you have no business complaining about class suitability. Show up, race every weekend, get knocked off the podium a few times by an outclassed bike... now you have something to complain about!
Quote from: roadracer22 on August 06, 2007, 09:28:04 PM
I just don't see a 1000 anything being Lightweight although the rules allow it.
I haven't been beat by a Duc yet on my Sv in regional races, but there aren't many in my region. Although with a good rider I think a 1000 Duc would be an advantage over an SV. The biggest issue for most guys is the cost though. Lightweight classes are run by many due to the lower costs. I have a SB SV and it makes 10 more hp than my SS Sv, My buddy has an SS 800 with mild SB work and it makes the same hp with more torque than my SB built SV. I hear it is easy to get close to 100 hp out of an air cooled 1000 Duc.
Being realistic, it costs about the same to get power out of either a 1000ss or an SV700. I'm not sure what HP scale we're talking about. So lets use a repeatable one.
On a FactoryPro dyno a well built SV/SS would post about 68HP, a ducati DS /SS about 75. Anything over 85HP (on a factory pro) starts getting pretty expensive for either.
The rumors of the 1000ds are just plain over-hyped. The simple fact is that the SV is cheaper to buy, build, and maintain.
Basically, if YOU have never disassembled a motor, rebuilt it, blueprinted it, YOU have no idea what it takes to build a good SS motor. Your mechanic is going to either oversimplify or try to impress you.
Fact is, most racers are more concerned over the color of their plastic, than completely understanding the insides of their motors. :preachon: And while I'm up here, race plastic is an expensive rip off... I've never seen the test data from anyone's wind tunnel that proves aftermarket bodywork really helps. If your bodywork didn't come from the HRC or TZ-factory, its never been in a wind tunnel!!!
Quote from: 123user on August 08, 2007, 01:46:54 PMFact is, most racers are more concerned over the color of their plastic, than completely understanding the insides of their motors. :preachon: And while I'm up here, race plastic is an expensive rip off... I've never seen the test data from anyone's wind tunnel that proves aftermarket bodywork really helps. If your bodywork didn't come from the HRC or TZ-factory, its never been in a wind tunnel!!!
Ha! I know every time you see my bike you want to run over and tear all that damn plastic off... sorry. :biggrin: Since X rode my bike in GTL I know for a fact that the bike as it is, is capable of running 6 or 7 seconds faster, so I'm concentrating more on my riding and more pressing issues like the brake sucking and the suspension being not right. Hey man, I'm a graphic designer, not a mechanic or engineer. :ahhh:
Also, not complaining about the class structure, as I'm not competitive yet anyway, and it's been a great learning experience. I just wonder how many people would have stuck with the funny old machinery if the Ducs didn't dominate it.
Jen, I haven't ridden your hawk, but I would bet that you don't need better brakes. I rarely used heavy braking. X is probably used to braking deep into the corner, but with the hawk, a simple downshift or two is usually sufficient. Heavy trail braking just isn't necessary on such a small bike (mine weight 331) Note: I weight about 250 with leathers. I think Paul weighs about 160!
Is that a Hurricane front end on yours, the front wheel looks heavy. When X told me he almost ran 1:22 on yours I was pretty impressed, luckily he didn't crash it... that's pretty close to the limit for a mildly built hawk.
At blackhawk, on the hawk, I only used the brakes in 1, 6, and 7- but very little in 7. If that bike drove out as well as it pitched in, I'd still be riding it this year
Arnie - you perfectly exemplify my point. It is clearly the rider that is more important than the bike. If it isn't the all about the rider, couldn't we argue that the SV650 is by far the best bike for the class since both the MW and NE regions are brutally dominated by SV650's?
As far as getting 100 BHP from the 1000DS motor - please define "easy" and let me know just how optimistic a dyno we can use. Even if you can do some things just to pick up peak power on the Ducati, unless it is developed as a total package to lighten and balance everything as well as to provide for additional cooling (and with the corresponding expense of such an effort) will it last? From my experience I would say the answer is no.
I have also thought about this a lot - ultimately, in terms of equipment doesn't it all come down to cubic dollars? With the same money you would throw at the Ducati couldn't you build up a really super superbike SV to results in just as good of a package? Before we even begin to debate if it is fair to spend that much money - isn't that a problem with running any true SB class against those who are willing and able to spend the money on the build? I can tell you that if I didn't have the Ducati to spend money on I would be feeding the same money into a ultra-trick SV650 - basically from my competition's standpoint it should not matter...
Really, despite all these issues - doesn't your domination of the NE region demonstrate that we are all better off spending money on track time and training vs. equipment? If I had the time I would - but I don't have the time so I just throw money at the problem...
George
Hey George,
I've got a definition of "easy" for you.
Somebody else's time, somebody elses money. I think you've also proved some of my points:
1: Benchracing is free!
2: Be competetive before complaining!
3: Put up or shut up!
I say the Ducs are fine to be let in with the superbikes, like in WERA: supersport rules for the DUC and superbike classes. And in reality if you get beat you get beat, it really doesnt matter which bike beat you. However, i do have a pretty light full blow superbike chassis sv with a mild mild superbike motor as well as ram air, and at road atlanta I would lose in the neighborhood of 150-250 ft going down the back straight to a very healthy ss 1000ss. Where the ducs kill the svs is their torque, the svs are capable of making it back up under braking as well as tight "flick sections". I also think one reason there is so much complaining is that both national series hold their championship races at hp/torque tracks, and it results in scewed results vs. say blackhawk or talladega. All in all i just like giving you guys shit, ill race any bike anytime and if it meets the rules of the org. you choose to race with either shut up or dont race.
Yeah, I know Ben. I like to stir the pot too. You really aught to ride one though before you make up your mind.
Hey, my kx500/hawk hybrid is running again... you should come over and ride that too. Watch out, sometimes the throttle sticks open. I thought I was going to die the other day! New shorts please!
Wait a minute... a 70 hp motor in a 230lb chassis, that shouldn't be legal for ultra light SB. Well, I guess it isn't all about horsepower is it?
eeehhhh, ill be done with all of this lightweight bull in a few months. Ill go down to road atlanta in october and either win a couple championships or lose a couple championships, then Ill move on to a big bike and see if i actually am capable of riding a motorcycle quickly. Hopefully someone buys my superbike for mucho money. :thumb:
Quote from: benprobst on August 08, 2007, 07:00:03 PM
eeehhhh, ill be done with all of this lightweight bull in a few months. Ill go down to road atlanta in october and either win a couple championships or lose a couple championships, then Ill move on to a big bike and see if i actually am capable of riding a motorcycle quickly. Hopefully someone buys my superbike for mucho money. :thumb:
Are you planning on going from running the lightweight classes as an amatuer to the bigger bikes as an expert? I don't know your experience, but that is a big big jump. I ride both and there is a big difference. You might want to stay on lw bikes for your first year expert unless you are staying am another year.
Ill be ok, but thanks for the concern. I know its going to be a big jump, but ill spend next year running a shortened schedule while i learn how to ride a big bike as well as get some personal stuff sorted out then go for my AMA license the following year(collect expert regional points). :thumb: My future if I have one in motorcycle racing is on big bikes most likely endurance because of my size, so im going to skip the 600 class and start learning how to ride the big bikes.
i've been around long enough and won enough races to know a ss SV and a ss Duc 1000 are not equal machinery. thats the reason i asked my question. i dont care if they're allowed in or not, rules are rules and i respect that with any organization. looking at the results and times from barber this weekend, i should have come over anyway. oh well.
yes. SV is not equal to Ducati is not equal to Buell. There are benefits and drawbacks to each design.
SV advantages over Buell and Ducati:
1. Low buy-in cost
2. plentiful spares
3. Good aftermarket representation
4. Reliable
5. OEM parts take less than 3 weeks to get!
The SV has allowed hundreds of racers to "club race" competetively, while Ducati's and Buells continue to cause hair loss and teeth grinding for team owners. That's why the SV has been the dominant bike in the lightweight class for 7 years now.
Hey scott, you should go ahead and do a live comparison, buy my superbike at the end of this year and run them both next year, every other round. That will give you time to work on the Ducati and time to look at the SV and appreciate only having to check the valves :biggrin:
Quote from: 123user on August 08, 2007, 02:51:52 PM
Heavy trail braking just isn't necessary on such a small bike (mine weight 331)
you so crazy. my sv is 15 pounds lighter than your old hawk and I trail brake waaay deep. Have you seen Ed run his bikes? they weigh 15 - 30 lbs less than mine and he trail brakes into the next damn corner nearly.
Ben, you caught me, I'm a p*ssy! I'm trying to make it to F40... only 9 seasons to go!
yeah, what does trail braking have to do with the bike being light? that doesnt make any sense.
I think I answered that question in my response to Ben's question. "I" don't need to trail brake on the hawk, because "I'm" a p*ssy. Trail braking would require me to ride fast!
So I'll revise my previous statement: For people other than me, feel free to grab the brakes on the entrance.
Quote from: 123user on August 14, 2007, 08:51:26 AM
Ben, you caught me, I'm a p*ssy! I'm trying to make it to F40... only 9 seasons to go!
You're not a pussy, you rode a hawk chassis with a 70hp KX500 motor that you built in your garage around a racetrack, that automatically qualifies you as not a pussy. As well as riding the most brutal dirtbike ive ever swung a leg over around the rocky ass woods at St. Joes, once again not a pussie. I was gonna say maybe your smarter than most of us and might actually make it to F40 then I reread the fist two sentences of my post and i changed my mind. :biggrin:
Honestly, I can say I rarely trailed in to corners on the hawk because it just wouldn't go fast enough with me on it. Maybe, only turns 7 and 1 at blackhawk. The bike would just take everything I could throw at it. Either I just went neutral after turning in, or I'd bang a down shift and the bike just seem to turn on its own. I guess I should have tried leaving the throttle open all the way through. Remember, it only made 37 hp when I dynoed it at Heartland Park.
I think I'm bringing the ol' Hondasaki 500 to blackhawk this weekend. I wanted to run it at least once this year... I was thinking about bringing it to Daytona this fall, but I'm afraid it'll seize.
If I read this thread correctly...
The whole topic of trail braking stems off of comments made about me riding Truckstop's bike.
Yes, I was trail braking...
If you have to use the brakes, the only fast way around the track includes trail braking.
Yes, if is possible to use lean angle and pushing the front tire on purpose to slow the bike down.
I was unwilling to do this, on her bike. Simply put, it is the first time I ever rode it at BHFs or trying to go fast.
As far as how when I did my braking...
Turn 1 and 7 yes.. as hard as the brakes would take it... and yes, right up to apex.
This is NOT how I wanted to brake, I actually wanted to be WFO by apex, to get better exit speed.
The lack of brakes on her bike did not meet well with my chosen brake markers.
Also, I was hard on the brakes going in to 3A.
On the exit of 3, I was getting the bike to wheelie from the hard drive (man twins are fun). In an effort to reach my lap time goal, I was not going to lift till the last second.
More braking...
Entering 3, I had the bike topped out in 5th. I needed some brakes there.
Entering 6, I may have been able to get away with just a down shift... But it was still an unfamiliar bike, and I was not going to force any issues.
I do NOT claim to be a good light weight bike rider. Hell I do not claim to be a great rider on any bike rider.
It is my humble opinion... If you have to use the brakes, the only fast way through the corner is, drive it in deep and brake at the last possible moment.
123user...
I look forward to seeing this bike. I heard about it at Gingerman in 2005.
XIII
Quote from: ahastings on August 08, 2007, 01:01:01 PM
I haven't been beat by a Duc yet on my Sv in regional races, but there aren't many in my region. Although with a good rider I think a 1000 Duc would be an advantage over an SV. The biggest issue for most guys is the cost though. Lightweight classes are run by many due to the lower costs. I have a SB SV and it makes 10 more hp than my SS Sv, My buddy has an SS 800 with mild SB work and it makes the same hp with more torque than my SB built SV. I hear it is easy to get close to 100 hp out of an air cooled 1000 Duc.
I havent been beat by an SV all yr in my region on my DS...hopefully ill see you at VIR next weekend! its on like donkey kong. haha
I'll be there , just go easy on this old man.
haha alright #1 :cheers:
I have a pretty fast Duc, and have closed the gap to Arnie this year ... but I'm still a long ways off his SV lap times. I won't be at VIR ... but I'll put my money on Arnie v. someone else on a Duc.
I'm still waitin' for the $5 Probst owes me for the decals I brought him at Gateway in June... :err:
Quote from: xseal on September 19, 2007, 01:11:04 PM
I have a pretty fast Duc, and have closed the gap to Arnie this year ... but I'm still a long ways off his SV lap times. I won't be at VIR ... but I'll put my money on Arnie v. someone else on a Duc.
I don't know Max , Garrett is one of those fast youngsters from down south.
im excited for the weekend, should be good racing...i just sold my 749r so im just on the LW bike this weekend....see you soon, ill come introduce myself arnie!
Quote from: backMARKr on September 19, 2007, 04:07:47 PM
I'm still waitin' for the $5 Probst owes me for the decals I brought him at Gateway in June... :err:
I must have been mistaken, I did'nt know your "dont worry about it" meant "I am going to follow you around on the ccs forum and say you didnt pay me for the stickers", I thought it meant, ya know, dont worry about it. :biggrin: Do you have paypal, id be happy to send you 5 bucks anytime. :thumb:
Quote from: benprobst on September 20, 2007, 08:00:19 PM
I must have been mistaken, I did'nt know your "dont worry about it" meant "I am going to follow you around on the ccs forum and say you didnt pay me for the stickers", I thought it meant, ya know, dont worry about it. :biggrin: Do you have paypal, id be happy to send you 5 bucks anytime. :thumb:
Cmon Ben...as much as you bust balls.....gotta expect a little... :biggrin:
Quote from: backMARKr on September 20, 2007, 11:45:06 PM
Cmon Ben...as much as you bust balls.....gotta expect a little... :biggrin:
Yeah, what the guy with the pink wristband said!!
Smack him some Fear and Loathing Mark!
(Was I the the only one to recognize your avitar?)
Quote from: Burt Munro on September 20, 2007, 11:52:48 PM
Yeah, what the guy with the pink wristband said!!
Smack him some Fear and Loathing Mark!
(Was I the the only one to recognize your avitar?)
Finally...someone else who has read a book (gotta love Dr. Thompson)....and from Iowa none the less.
Rick ..now you need to teach Lonny to read!