If I change the internals of my forks, does that eliminate me from the super sport class? Thanks in advance. :cheers:
No. Just states forks must appear stock.
OK, I see. Thanks so much for the info, I am very new to this.
:preachon:
I think it sucks. I'm broke already building a competitive 600, and we haven't even turned a wheel yet.
We need a stock class...
Quote from: JBraun on January 13, 2007, 11:02:02 AM
:preachon:
I think it sucks. I'm broke already building a competitive 600, and we haven't even turned a wheel yet.
We need a stock class...
that would be awesome. a totally stock class. nothing but different plastic.
ironically pure stock classes can turn into the most expensive classes and the amount of cheating really skyrockets. Also you'd have to figure a way out to "seal" a stock motor after being inspected and usually that would require everyone to use the same model bike. Supersport pretty much is a 'stock' class. Other than you can change teh rear shock out and redo teh fork internals, allowed a valve job to a certain spec, remapping/rejetting and exhaust (which most streetbikes have done anyways) and certain safety mods (case guards, belly pan, saftey wire) everythign else has to be stock.
Like Rob said, there's cheating.
Secondly, the expense of OEM replacement parts like exhaust systems and such develop a higher cost.
You don't have to go crazy with expenses to necessarily be competitive, period. Some riders get all kinds of cute parts but can't utilize them. Where's the value?
I get both points, and I completely agree about the cheating.
However, supersport is the least modified class we get, and the bikes at the front are running fork internals, shocks, master cylinders, pissed off motors, quickshifters, full TI exhaust systems etc, etc. You could run half a season on those reciepts alone!!
A stock class is a pipe dream, I realize it would never happen. But I would love to see something with similar rules to the Suzuki cup. Stock bikes, you can change spring rates and bodywork, nothing more. I would even lobby for spec tires, ie: pilot powers or dunlop qualifiers.
I've thought about all the angles, and the current system has it's advantages. For example, right now a competitive ss legal bike can win sb races, which is nice because you don't need to show up with two bikes.
But it would still be cool to put it all on the rider, and may the best man win. Of course we'd also run clean out of excuses. :biggrin:
Dave, I don't spend money for bling, trust me. I raced my GSXR last year with a slip-on, penske double and stock forks. It was what I could afford. I struggled to get that bike into the 1:13s at BHF, and flirted with the top five.
I don't think I'm going to spend a bunch of money on parts, and go race with Andy and Brian next year, those guys (and many others) will still kick my ass. I just wanna level the playing field.
Quote from: JBraun on January 13, 2007, 11:14:31 PM
I get both points, and I completely agree about the cheating.
However, supersport is the least modified class we get, and the bikes at the front are running fork internals, shocks, master cylinders, pissed off motors, quickshifters, full TI exhaust systems etc, etc. You could run half a season on those reciepts alone!!
Still motor mods are kept to a minimum. I can only think of 2 things you can do to a ss motor and stay legal. 1mm overbore (still must use OEM parts and be the same C/R) and a supersport valve job. Thats it for internals. Everything else MUST stay stock. A full ti exhaust is nice, but unless its GIVEN TO ME FREE, I aint paying $1500 for one. Last I heard the master cyl has to be stock sized. Only reason I could think that you would want to use aftermarket ones are if your bike is rarish and parts are hard to comeby. One thing I'd like to see added to ss rules is a requirement that the bikes still have the charging/starting system ON the bike and functional.
Quote
I've thought about all the angles, and the current system has it's advantages. For example, right now a competitive ss legal bike can win sb races, which is nice because you don't need to show up with two bikes.
Thing is most (my guess 90%) of the bikes in superbike classes ARE supersport prepped.
I know where you are coming from. When I quit racing full size cars, I started racing R/C cars. Running a stock class ($27 27 turn stock motor with a $35 battery by rule) was costing me more than running modifieds ($80 10T motors unlimited battery). The stock motors were so high strung they lasted 4-5 runs before they were "junk". Plus we've caught guys putting timed brushes and intermediat windings (14-18Turn) into stock cans. People were putting exotic battery cells into stock battery cases. 3-4 racers being dq'd a day was normal. Mind you this is REMOTE CONTROL RACING and people were cheating so they could get a $5 piece of wood. Its pathetic to watch a guy in his 40's purposely ramming a kids car because the kid was a better driver.
Quote from: JBraun on January 13, 2007, 11:14:31 PM
However, supersport is the least modified class we get, and the bikes at the front are running fork internals, shocks, master cylinders, pissed off motors, quickshifters, full TI exhaust systems etc, etc. You could run half a season on those reciepts alone!!
Suzuki World Cup was what you were refering to...not US Suzuki Cup.
As for all the things you list, there are fast guys like Larry Denning, who up until this year made a living racing for contingency money, didn't use some the things that you listed.
Yeah, shocks are pretty necessary. There is just more one can do with an aftermarket unit. Stock units are getting better. Fork internals. I don't see that the full replacement cartridges are necessary. I won races with stock internals with springs only. Yes, we did improve the dampening quality by changing internals.
Pissed motors...see the thread about lap times an HP. Give a 600 about 40 more HP and you'll have the power of a 1000...and, if you're an unbelieveable rider, you might go only a little faster...might.
Alot of good info here. So, basically with my stock internals I will probaly not be competitive (assuming equal riders)?
No, doesn't mean that.
Springs are first. Geometry is a real important part too. Then dampening.
I wouldn't consider springs a part of "internals" as they are easy to replace.
What bike?
Thats why I play nitro cars now,electric is about who has the best batterys and taking apart the motors every run and dynoing it also.With nitro i just put gas and go.
Quote from: Super Dave on January 14, 2007, 10:43:03 AM
Suzuki World Cup was what you were refering to...not US Suzuki Cup.
As for all the things you list, there are fast guys like Larry Denning, who up until this year made a living racing for contingency money, didn't use some the things that you listed.
Yeah, shocks are pretty necessary. There is just more one can do with an aftermarket unit. Stock units are getting better. Fork internals. I don't see that the full replacement cartridges are necessary. I won races with stock internals with springs only. Yes, we did improve the dampening quality by changing internals.
Pissed motors...see the thread about lap times an HP. Give a 600 about 40 more HP and you'll have the power of a 1000...and, if you're an unbelieveable rider, you might go only a little faster...might.
Yes, Suzuki world cup is what I'm referring to.
Denning's bikes are stupid fast. He's a far better rider on his worst day than I am on my best, but let's not pretend he's on stock shit, and neither are you for that matter.
I'm sure there are riders who could go out and win expert races today on a stock bike with just a shock on it, but I'm not one of them. That's why I'll take every advantage I can afford.
Quote from: JBraun on January 15, 2007, 12:10:28 AM
Yes, Suzuki world cup is what I'm referring to.
Denning's bikes are stupid fast. He's a far better rider on his worst day than I am on my best, but let's not pretend he's on stock shit, and neither are you for that matter.
No, mine isn't stock.
Last year, most of my riding was on my '03 R6.
At the ASRA round at HPT, I was making 91.7 HP. Far off of stock. Other bikes wer making 102 to 105 HP.
I have never had my aftermarket Hyperpro shock serviced. It's been on the bike since April of 2003. My forks were stock except for Hyperpro springs through most of the year. 4&6 installed valving late that year. I put different fork oil in the forks in 2005.
No quick shifter. No Power Commander. (I've found the Techlusion unit works better...and is cheaper.)
Similarly, Larry didn't service his shock all the time either. Often, he measured it in years as he'd just move a shock from one bike to another.
Quote from: JBraun on January 15, 2007, 12:10:28 AM
I'm sure there are riders who could go out and win expert races today on a stock bike with just a shock on it, but I'm not one of them. That's why I'll take every advantage I can afford.
Only if it is an advantage. I never could afford "advantages". I'm not a naturally gifted rider either. But I've been around long enough to recognize some patterns that help me. Don't ride as hard as I used to either. I'm tired, but I like having fun. Motorcycle Road Racing is fun, and I now focus a lot of effort on some of the riders I get to work with, if they are willing to work with me.
Actually it's not an advantage at all. It just makes it a fair fight.
A lot of it is psychological too. I'm building the best bike I can afford so I don't have any excuses. If I show up on a bike I know can win, it's all up to me.
You're right, a wicked motor may not actually improve your lap times. but it makes you a hell of a lot harder to pass.
When you've been doing this as long as I have you'll understand. :biggrin: :biggrin: :lmao:
Quote from: Super Dave on January 15, 2007, 08:16:16 AM
No, mine isn't stock.
Last year, most of my riding was on my '03 R6.
At the ASRA round at HPT, I was making 91.7 HP. Far off of stock. Other bikes wer making 102 to 105 HP.
I have never had my aftermarket Hyperpro shock serviced. It's been on the bike since April of 2003. My forks were stock except for Hyperpro springs through most of the year. 4&6 installed valving late that year. I put different fork oil in the forks in 2005.
No quick shifter. No Power Commander. (I've found the Techlusion unit works better...and is cheaper.)
Similarly, Larry didn't service his shock all the time either. Often, he measured it in years as he'd just move a shock from one bike to another.
Only if it is an advantage. I never could afford "advantages". I'm not a naturally gifted rider either. But I've been around long enough to recognize some patterns that help me. Don't ride as hard as I used to either. I'm tired, but I like having fun. Motorcycle Road Racing is fun, and I now focus a lot of effort on some of the riders I get to work with, if they are willing to work with me.
I can attest to all of this.... For lord sake Dave changes his oil in his bikes once a year because he thinks that the clutch grabs too much with new oil......
:biggrin:
Oh, no, I'm doing it more often now that I recycle my oil in the bus' diesel fuel tank.
Just run the shit you brung :blahblah: and if it won't turn then pull in and look at your tire wear. If your tires look good then go faster and run it in a little deeper. Continue this process until the front end starts to chatter and or slide. If your rebound is maxed, try backing out of the pre-load. Not until you ride smooth will suspension give you the feedback that you desire. :preachon: I began racing with a bunch of stock crap and listened to Super Dave. He watched me, told me what to do better, then when I could go no faster without chatter I called Traxxion. I knocked 7 tenths of a second off of my laptimes by valving (renewed confidence). Not 2-3 seconds mind you but less than a second but not until I figured most everything else out first. WARNING: Do not spend a bunch of money on your bike until you learn how to ride it. Buy good tire warmers before anything else. :thumb:
8)
You go and get married and now you're lurkin' on racin' boards...
:whine:
:biggrin:
Well...
I had to spend my money on something other than racing for a bit. Guess what I am spending all my money on once again???
Wifey bought me a new Trumpet...oh yes she did! :cheers: Not the kind Dave sticks up his ars either :spank:
Three cylinders... :spank: :biggrin:
You damn skippy :boink:
Dave-you gonna race 'ol yeller again this year?
I agree with a lot of people here-I see guys with TONS of crap on their bikes that is totally useless in going fast. A lot of times those same guys complain about not having any money...hmmm...
My current bike does have a bit of 'bling', but I bought it in its current state, plus it sits in a showroom and all the street guys like to see cool parts lol! As an amateur I rode a total pig GSXR and did pretty good-I valved the front end myself, I'm sure that worked greaattt..lol!
Quote from: lil_thorny on January 24, 2007, 11:41:31 PM
Well...
I had to spend my money on something other than racing for a bit. Guess what I am spending all my money on once again???
Wifey bought me a new Trumpet...oh yes she did! :cheers: Not the kind Dave sticks up his ars either :spank:
Is she gonna race it? Which one did she get?
Quote from: Grashopr on January 26, 2007, 08:23:32 PM
Is she gonna race it? Which one did she get?
She bought the Tornado and no, she will not be racing it. She has to start out like everyone else, being a pit bitch.
Benny.
Now when you sit on the Trumpet, do you just want to stand up and see if you sat in sum gum?? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: