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Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 09:29:55 PM

Title: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 09:29:55 PM
In another post another new racer asked about whether to get into the supertwins or the 600 AM class and some of you guys were making the 600cc AM class seem like a cutting room floor scene of Saving Private Ryan.   Is the 600cc AM class really THAT bad?   This is my first year racing also, and I'm going to be smack-dab in the middle of the class and now I'm wondering if I dont need to forgo the case savers and go for some of those spikes to stick out from my axles to cut the other guys (and gals) achille's tendons.   

Is it REALLY as bad as you guys are makin it out to be? 
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Woofentino Pugrossi on December 05, 2006, 09:40:10 PM
A few years ago it would be packed to the gills. This past season it didnt seem that large. Maybe 30ish bikes instead of 50.

I should add this is from my experience for the midwest region at Blackhawk Farms
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: roadracer162 on December 05, 2006, 10:05:05 PM
It's that bad with two wave starts because the field is that big and some guys coming from the second wave trying to make it to the front of the first wave. It can get crazy when a bunch of amateurs are trying to prove something.

There's gotta be a better way for new racers to start out other than 600 and sometimes even 1000cc bikes. I believe that the fastest bikes should be left for the Experts. If a new racer is that good then maybe forgo the amateur year and move up to Expert.

Just my thoughts
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 05, 2006, 10:42:52 PM
The 600 classes are generally the ones that have the most accidents and red flag situations from what I've seen. Because of this they are often times the reason the schedule gets so screwed up from all the delays. I've seen multiple restarts (in 1 race) in the 600 classes, at many events on top of it!

I personally feel very strongly if 1 particular division of bikes is so much of a problem then all it's races need to be moved to the end of the race days, that way if there are delays from red flags it doesn't screw everyone else out of their track time. I don't see how that is unfair at all, I mean why should the class that screws up the whole schedule on such a regular basis be given any privelage of earlier races at all? Middleweight bikes are easier to ride than Heavyweight and Unlimited bikes, yet they seem to have the most red flags, "Houston we have a problem"!

Sure you can race in the 600 class, and you may be fine, but I think it would be a safe bet that your chances of 'incidents' in that class are much higher than other classes. Good luck with what ever you chose to do.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on December 05, 2006, 10:42:52 PM
Good luck with what ever you chose to do.  :thumb:

Thanks, but no real 'choice' to it at this point.  It's either race with the 'bad group' or dont race;  I've already got the the bike and changing isn't an option.  However at least I wont worry as much about how the bike looks if it's just going to get beat to piss by the other bikes (and ground) anyways.   Lol... 
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Jason748 on December 05, 2006, 10:51:22 PM
Here is the Midwest & Great Plains regions....  NO it's not half as bad and most make it out to be, I've been running Middleweight for the last two years, and before that Lightweights off and on.  Honestly other than more bikes on the grid (more chance of getting caught-up in someone else's mistake), I have never really though is was any more dangerous than other classes.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 10:58:12 PM
I will be in the GP region for 2007 also.  Thanks for the heads up on the lighter grids from what the 'doomsdayer's were obviously referring to when they were saying that the AM 600 classes were trips to hell and back.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Super Dave on December 05, 2006, 10:59:01 PM
Exactly...

600cc sportbikes are very popular and have been very popular for quite a long time now.

Most new racers begin racing with their street bike following the completion of a riding school, etc.  So, it follows that amateur middleweight grids are pretty large.  With the distribution of rider ability, maturaty, and set ups being distributed all along a bell shaped curve, well, crashes happen.

Some of the middleweight amateur crashes even occur when amateur and expert grids are combined, which can be seen as a cause of some accidents.

Some say that it's caused by young riders in amateur middleweight classes, but the average age of club racers has continued to increase.


Advice?  Buy good tires, replace them with regularity, work on developing a bike that handles well.  Your body positioning can be a reflection of what the problems might be.  Things aren't always as they seem.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Court Jester on December 05, 2006, 10:59:20 PM
Quote from: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 10:50:25 PM
Thanks, but no real 'choice' to it at this point.  It's either race with the 'bad group' or dont race;  I've already got the the bike and changing isn't an option.  However at least I wont worry as much about how the bike looks if it's just going to get beat to piss by the other bikes (and ground) anyways.   Lol... 

just like everything else, it is what you make of it. (most of the time)
you're going real fast on two wheels in turns real close. shit happens. but try to keep a postive tude about what you can do and where you can put your bike, stay on your toes and you'll do just fine. just don't go into it thinking someone's going to take you out.
if you have the 600 and are ready then jump in with both feet and you'll do fine. be be aware of what's going on around you.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: brotekind269 on December 06, 2006, 11:58:52 AM
This was my second year as a novice. I (was)wrecked 5 times, one of which was my fault (but I didn't hit anybody). Maybe it's the color of my bike, but people just love slamming into me. Maybe I shouldn't have painted that big target on my back. Already committed to my 600 and love my 600 so I'll go through it again next year.

Mid Atlantic really is that bad; and it seems the faster you get, the worst it gets.  I had no problems with people my first year.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Grashopr on December 06, 2006, 12:11:45 PM
I've only been on the East Coast a couple of times, but if you guys race like you drive, I can imagine that it would be like Mad Max meets Torque. 

You were 'taken out' or you were 'hit' 5 times (4 times?)
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: George_Linhart on December 06, 2006, 01:18:22 PM
I think the real answer is usually but sometimes not.  The 600SS riders tend to be very agressive and willing to take chances.  A lot of really questionable moves out there by people that don't necessarily care if they take you out or themselves.  Quite a few "win it or bin it" type of people.

With me this is a hobby - I do it for pure enjoyment and the thrill of competition.  What I did a lot of time was just avoid 600 SS and 600SB - I would run MW GP, HW SB & HW SS.  These classes were not so crowded and it just seemed easier to avoid problems.  If you are fast a 600 will still do very well against the HW and Unlimited class bikes with yellow plates.

As a personal safety issue I would purposely take it easy on the start and enter T-1  towards the back of the pack.  I watched a lot of first turn accidents from behind.  I think it is a lot better to pick my way past slower riders on the track than to try and win the race to turn one only to be taken out by the kid that things they are Nicky Hayden.

When I went to racing LW and Thunderbike the riders did seem to be a bit more careful (or at least aware of their mortality) and I didn't have the same reservations racing from green flag.

George
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Spooner on December 06, 2006, 01:30:26 PM
I have been racing 3 seasons now all on a 600, and also on a lightweight this season.  I don't think its all that bad other than HUGE national rounds like Barber.  I have never been taken out once, but have been bumped a couple times.  Getting good starts seems to help along with getting good grid positions.  Its the guys at the rear that feel like they need to pass everyone going into T1 that can be a problem. 

Like the above poster, I often bumped up to heavyweight and even unlimited as an amateur and was very competitive plus the grids were a fair bit lighter. 

Hell I thought the lightweights were rougher because we all had slow bikes so we put in some pretty close passes lol! 
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: funsizeracing on December 06, 2006, 01:45:43 PM
Lightweights rough? 
I have no idea what your talking about  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: tstruyk on December 06, 2006, 01:46:20 PM
QuoteHell I thought the lightweights were rougher because we all had slow bikes so we put in some pretty close passes lol!  

I think also with experienced racers suggesting racing LW to new racers more and more guys are leaning that direction.  I remember at Barber and ACC in 05 talking with Randy and Harvey about how many red flags seemed to be coming from the LW grids...

that being said, I only felt uncomfy at Barber... 5-6 crashes in MWSS (might have been SB) several close calls, it was VERY dicey!  Back in the midwest/great plains though things where never a problem.  MWSS red flagged twice at ACC but it wasnt that bad.  First one was Brian Eaton getting tangled under braking with 2 other riders, ended up unconcious.  I think the one rider had checked up forcing the other to turn in late, forcing brian off track.  the 2nd was because the remaining ambualnce had to role for a guy that tucked the front in 3, he saw me come up the inside (4-5 feet between us) got spooked and grabbed the front brake... no mo busses means no mo racey

errors are going to be made in any AM race, part of the learning process...
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: tstruyk on December 06, 2006, 01:48:23 PM
QuoteLightweights rough? 
I have no idea what your talking about

bully...  :ahhh:

:biggrin:
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: rwracer on December 06, 2006, 03:48:10 PM
Take most of the negative remarks, more or less reverse them, and you have a more accurate description.   In CCS at least, small grid combined classes have way more problems with needless wrecks than the large grid 600 classes.  And most of the incidents are caused by the kind of rider errors that you would have regardless of grid size.

Decide what class you want to run in based SOLELY on your goals for the sport and your financial backing.  You'll be glad you did.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: mdr14 on December 06, 2006, 04:01:21 PM
Thats one of those urban legends that seem to endure. I remember hearing those same naysayers stating how crazy racing was and the 600 class was dangerous..blah blah blah...

Racing amateur 600 will be fine. Just hold your line and don't be a bone head and it will all be good
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Scotty Ryan on December 06, 2006, 10:26:17 PM
You gotta start somewhere... I personally started on an SV 650 so I could learn the basics.... Then moved up to the 600.......But I also had quite a few knowledgeable people helping me out and pointing me in the right direction along the way..... I agree with Super Dave - make sure that the bike and yourself are well prepared each and every time you go out on the track...... 2 cents
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: motobenco on December 07, 2006, 12:33:59 PM
yes
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Spooner on December 07, 2006, 12:37:49 PM
SV's are cool bikes too.  I think riding one made me a little faster on the R6 this year.  But, I think a fast rider is fast on any bike so I see no problem starting on an SV, then bumping to a 600 when going expert. 
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Z-man on December 10, 2006, 12:17:05 PM
Quote from: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 09:29:55 PM
In another post another new racer asked about whether to get into the supertwins or the 600 AM class and some of you guys were making the 600cc AM class seem like a cutting room floor scene of Saving Private Ryan.   Is the 600cc AM class really THAT bad?   This is my first year racing also, and I'm going to be smack-dab in the middle of the class and now I'm wondering if I dont need to forgo the case savers and go for some of those spikes to stick out from my axles to cut the other guys (and gals) achille's tendons.   

Is it REALLY as bad as you guys are makin it out to be? 
Quote from: Grashopr on December 05, 2006, 09:29:55 PM
In another post another new racer asked about whether to get into the supertwins or the 600 AM class and some of you guys were making the 600cc AM class seem like a cutting room floor scene of Saving Private Ryan.   Is the 600cc AM class really THAT bad?   This is my first year racing also, and I'm going to be smack-dab in the middle of the class and now I'm wondering if I dont need to forgo the case savers and go for some of those spikes to stick out from my axles to cut the other guys (and gals) achille's tendons.   

Is it REALLY as bad as you guys are makin it out to be? 

It is called the meat-grinder class for a reason.  I didn't read all the posts so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone.  But just because you have a 600cc bike it doesn't mean you can only race the 600 class.  The heavyweight and ulimited classes generally have much fewer riders.  I live out in NJ and the closest track is Summit Point and next closest is VIR, these events sell out much of the time in the middleweight classes.  When you have 60 guys all trying to get to the front of the pack in 7 laps it can get a bit hairy and agressive in the turns and since there are so many people in the same portion of track, once one goes many types multiple people go. 

However, once you go past VIR and hit some of the other tracks like CMP, Roebling and even Barber to some degree aren't nearly as busy as the two tracks within 10 hours drive of NYC, Philly, DC, Baltimore, Richmond ETC.  I would say if it is your first time racing hit a less populated event or go for the heavyweight class or Unlimited class.  This year in the Mid Atlantic region and much of the Southeast the Heavyweight class and Unlimited classes were won by people on 600's, I picked up unlimited superbike MA and SE and Bret Garretson picked up a few classes on a 600.

First race can be a bit hairy, it is very very different from a trackday.  Nerves are flying, adrenaline is pumping and there is always a story on the boards the day after the first race weekend of someone all bent out of shape because someone cut them off or someone fell right in front of them and took them out.  There is a phrase for that, "that's racing" take it easy the first time out and get a feel for things.  You can also grid in the back and wear a bright colored t-shirt over your leathers to give the more senior guys a heads up that you are out for your first couple times and to be sure to give you a bit more space.

Z
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Rich on December 10, 2006, 06:39:35 PM
Quote from: Spooner on December 06, 2006, 01:30:26 PM

Hell I thought the lightweights were rougher because we all had slow bikes so we put in some pretty close passes lol! 

If you would have just stayed behind me like I told you to none of that would have happened.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: jimmyboost on December 11, 2006, 02:54:16 AM
Quote from: Z-man on December 10, 2006, 12:17:05 PM
You can also grid in the back and wear a bright colored t-shirt over your leathers to give the more senior guys a heads up that you are out for your first couple times and to be sure to give you a bit more space.

Glad you mentioned that.  From what I've been told, wearing your racing school shirt your first few races will definitely get you a little bit of slack from the other riders.   I will definitely be sporting my mean green EBRS shirt for my first couple races.  Its a shame Ed got rid of all of those sexy pink shirts though.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: YellowDesmo998 on December 12, 2006, 10:16:33 AM
The 600 AM class isn't that bad.  I crashed 3 times in 2006.  One time was another rider standing the bike up and hitting me in T1 at VIR, the second was me being too aggressive in the rain and the third was rider error on my part at Daytona but I picked the bike up and still finished the race (not even in last place)!

In the GTU at Daytona we had 2 restarts.  Both red flags caused by... hold on... Expert riders.  One on the warm-up lap and the other in T3 on the second start.  They ended up scrapping the race until the end of the day and only gave us 5 laps instead of our 25 minutes.

Don't stand the bike up in a turn when you feel you're being squeezed, hold your line and all will be well in the world.  You won't be able to control what another rider does but that's racing.  You'll be fine, enjoy!
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: StumpysWife on December 13, 2006, 08:46:22 AM
Just get out in front and then you won't have anything to worry about!!! 

Well, until you have to work through the sketchy lappers, I guess...

Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: xseal on December 13, 2006, 09:24:03 PM
I started out racing 600s and only felt it was a bit much after I moved up to expert (to many AMA privateers).  Its a good class, and as an amateur its easy to race up classes.  Start by racing it in the HW classes, those are usually a bit tamer. After a couple weekends you'll be able to assess for yourself.
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Z-man on December 15, 2006, 03:44:25 PM
Quote from: StumpysWife on December 13, 2006, 08:46:22 AM
Just get out in front and then you won't have anything to worry about!!! 

Well, until you have to work through the sketchy lappers, I guess...



Sketchy lappers are a big problem, especially in the GT races where there are more laps.  I've lapped guys 2X in a sprint race.  That would mean they are generally running 30+ seconds above race pace.  They are very very easily spooked and stand the bike straight up and down.  I had a guy this year get spooked by someone passing them, I was setting him up and he picked up the bike right before the turn and crashed right into me.  He turned and was face shield to face shield coming into a turn.  If you could hear me in my helment screaming to stop looking and look at the #$%%^ track.  Also,many times will register early which only makes them 3X as dangerous because you might have to get around them at the start as well. 

Z
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Sobottka on December 15, 2006, 05:23:21 PM
 2 years in 600 am classes and no wrecks!! its what you make of it...
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Viper on December 17, 2006, 04:04:57 PM
Quote from: Z-man on December 15, 2006, 03:44:25 PM
  If you could hear me in my helment screaming to stop looking and look at the #$%%^ track.  . 

Z

LOL..........Pretty sure it wasn't at the time thou.....
Title: Re: Is 600 AM Really THAT bad?!
Post by: Z-man on December 18, 2006, 08:42:34 PM
Quote from: Viper on December 17, 2006, 04:04:57 PM
LOL..........Pretty sure it wasn't at the time thou.....

When your nose to nose with someone, trust me I was screaming look at the track