Motorcycle Racing Forum

I hate to sound pissed,  or out of place, but can someone explain why the LP Sport Rider Day is using our Sat Feb 1 track time at Streets of Willow?! >:(

Is there something wrong with Friday? Or Monday?

I really don't appreciate driving 8 hrs for a race weekend and taking two days off of work to sit around and watch non-licensed racers have a practice day on our time.  

Honestly...I am really a nice guy...but this seems inappropriate!

Yeah, that schedule looks really busy & tight with the Saturday practice in there.  I'm hoping it's not going to be this way for the majority of the dates.  Let us (the folks not going) know how it goes this weekend.

Good Luck!

Here's some even better questions:  How much would we have to pay for the LP trackday to get those extra two sessions of practice in the afternnon?  Full price?

Has CCS or LP considered the liabilty of having licensed racers trying to practice while running the typical track day obstacle course of bobbing and weaving riders of various skill levels?

How are they planning to run four groups, two sessions each in the afternoon practice in the span of an hour?  That works out to 7 1/2 mninutes per session with no time allowed for getting the groups on and off the track.  So figure five minutes per session, that's what, 3 laps?  And I've got to pay how much for that fine priveledge?

So, I guess we hope for a perfect Sunday with no crashes, no clean-up, no mechanicals, no red flags, no re-starts or no timing/scoring issues?

I hope we get refunds if they have to cut races...

hmm? 9 sessions over 2+ hours (12-2:30) seems like more than 5 minutes each seems more like 15 minutes each session.
Normal is three sessions of practice on Sat same as it is here so what is the beef? you have the oppurtunity to buy more practice if you need/want it and not have to take time off work for Friday practice day seems like a bonus to me.
And racers and street are seperated.
SO I am pretty confused on what you are worried about.
 I am not going to be there nor have I been there but seems like non-issue from where I am sitting. 18 races on Sunday big deal they did that at Summit last year and we do 21 every weekend in SC. Florida does too.

Yeah, I think you're right about the time thing.  I read the schedule as 12:00-1:00 for all those sessions.  I stand by the rest.

Yeah, judging by the schedule you'll still get 3 practice sessions Saturday morning and, if the urge strikes you, you can pay for the LP day and get 5 more.

Edit: Doh, just noticed the times. 13 sessions between 8 and 11:15 and 8 sessions between 12 and . That's 15 minutes and 7.5 minutes per session respectively and not counting getting riders on and off the course or anything like that.

You have less to worry about than me.  It seems that USGPRU is supposed to be racing this weekend in conjunction with CCS but I don't see us on the schedule.  It wouldn't be a big deal but we are supposed to have one practice session, 2 qualifying sessions and a full race.  Our rules structure states that the race is to be a minimum of 54 km (32 miles).  With this long of a race it's going to be tough to squeeze into the schedule as it's currently written.

I think some of you that responded are the confused ones:

1) If you are racing on Sat, you have to share your practice time with the LP sport riders...period!

2) Even if you pay for the LP thing that only gets you into the "after lunch" sessions: 1200 to 2:30...where do you get "five more sessions", Rick ?

3) The racers get to sit around with their "hands in their pants" from 11:15 AM until 2:30 PM waiting for street riders to finish oiling the track!

4) In the morning there will be Expert racers in the same sessions on everything from Unlimited Superbikes to Ultra-LW bikes...at the same time!

5) Same thing for the Amateurs! Recipe for disaster...especially with the "advanced" LP USA riders thrown into the mix!

6) Can you say "red flag"!

If anyone knows whom I should contact to address these issues I would REALLY appreciate it!

Oh...and I forgot...if CCS is really looking to make some money in this business...they just lost all the licensed racers track fees that would have been paid by holding a Friday practice/LP USA day...Oops!

i actually spoke with tiff this morning.   she said that the LP Track Day ran from 8 to 1, and even if you are registered to race on Saturday, you have to pay extra to ride on the track before 1pm.  

The schedule doesn't mention it, but the way she was talking, the CCS race day basically starts at 1:00 pm, i assume there would be time for 1 or two practice sessions between the end of the 1:00 riders meeting and the 2:30 start of the GT Lights race.  

So, rather than pay 50 bucks more to ride on Saturday morning, i am going to skip the GT Lights race altogether, and just show up on Sunday.   Saturday just isn't worth the hassle anymore, when i could spend the whole day driving to SOW rather than drive all day Friday, just to hang around on Saturday for one practice and one race.

Let me see if I have this right.  As the schedule reads right now, and if what Tiffiney said is correct, if we choose not to pay for the half ass track day, we do not get to practice before our Saturday races?

Wow, smart!

Don't get me wrong, I think the LP track days in conjunction w/ race events are a great idea, especially if you need to learn a new track.  however, they should not infirnge upon the CCS event.  Why would CCS allow LP to F' up our race weekend like this?

I'm wrong, right?  There's no way they would let people go race w/o practice, right?

QuoteI'm wrong, right?  There's no way they would let people go race w/o practice, right?

i think you are wrong.  i think there is room for practice from 1:15 (or so) to 2:30.  it just doesn't show up on the schedule.

QuoteI think some of you that responded are the confused ones:

2) Even if you pay for the LP thing that only gets you into the "after lunch" sessions: 1200 to 2:30...where do you get "five more sessions", Rick ?

I was thinking, based on the schedule,  that if you signed up for the LP day then you'd get to ride in two groups - A CCS Licensed Racer group (1 or 2)  and a LP USA Rider group (2-4). That may or may not be the case, but if it is then you'd be in two practice groups. :)


For example, the morning schedule shows:

Group 1: All Expert Licensed Racers
Group 2: All Amature Licensed Racers & LP USA Advanced Riders
Group 3: All LP USA Sport Riders
Group 4: All LP USA Street Riders

So, I was thinking that an "Expert" could ride in Group 1 w/ CCS and Group 2 w/ LP

if you are a ccs expert then you could sign up for the LP "Advanced" and get the 5 extra sessions.

But for an ameture like me,  I'm screwed!  why would any ameture ever sign up for a LP day.  I was going to, cause i need the track time, but not with this schedule.

Well, you could always sign up for the "sport" group. I can't remember what the rules were for that group but, I think it was bascially, "no inside passing."

...Assuming that someone could ride in two groups. :)

Only one question: WTF is any track day for street riders doing on a weekend for racing? It should not be. Or is CCS heading towards a track day org. and getting away from racing over time?

I for one plan on getting to the bottom of this...and you can bet it will come up on Saturday!

From what I can tell so far, unless you pay extra, No CCS racer will be on the track until after lunch!

If you do pay extra, then you would ride in the Sat AM class called "CCS expert" or "CCS AM"  You would NOT get to ride in those classes AND then pay expert and ride in another LP USA class...that would be ridiculous!  Can you imagine them letting experts get more track time in the LP USA street class!  Don't think so...!

So it looks like this:

1) Unless you pay...no racers play until after lunch Sat!

2) If you Accidentally took off Friday to get there by Saturday, and only have one race Sat, you will have wasted time off from work, because most likely ...if we would have gotten notice from CCS ...you would have known that you had plently of time to drive to the track Saturday!

If this type of scheduling is going to be repeated in the future, it would be more time-effective to stop racing and just hook up with more track-days!

Again...if anyone knows whom at CCS should be contacted to protest...let me know.  Thanks!

Let's get the correct information out there.

Any CCS entry for the weekend gets you your regular 2-3 sessions of practice. Saturday's racer practice starts first, ends at lunch just as it has for the last 19 seasons with CCS. No change. GT races still run on Saturday, no change. Racers track time is identical to the last season. End of discussion.

Sport Riders track time is dramatically reduced from what they got on Fridays last season. 5-6 sessions from the 8-9 sessions they used to get. 15 minute sessions instead of 20 minutes. Price reduction from last year and being on a weekend day are the only advantages for them.

Reality is that the Pacific and Southwest events have been financial disasters for the past two years. We are looking at alternatives to preserve the two-day format and the inclusion of Sport Riders was the most appealing alternative.

Rather than bash these Sport Riders (where do you think most new racers come from?) you should encourage them to participate. (They are the ones making it possible to continue two-day race events.) Then after they gain some track experience, encourage them to race. This insures the continuation of our sport.

CCS was built on racing both Saturday and Sunday, and the program running the same in Virginia as it does in Illinois as it does in California. If this experiment fails, then in 2004 we will have to become a one-day event in the Southwest and Pacific regions, and I for one do not want that to happen.

Gordy, call me if you have questions.

Thank you Kevin...I appreciate your quick response.

I want to see CCS continue in our area (SW), but if it doesn't, there are an abundance of track days and WSMC.  This is the plain and simple truth.  

Up and coming racers can get their track experience just like I did: by going to track days!  There are a gazillion out there.  They don't need to utilize the licensed racer's weekend practice to do this...plain and simple.

If you read the thread you will see that the word...albiet second hand, but the only "official word" until your reply above, was that the only practice racer's would get would be after lunch.  The prior to lunch track time appears to be devoted to those who pay extra ...unless you say otherwise...oh ya...I guess you did ...thanks!

Thank you Kevin for the clear and concise response.  I absolutely agree with your coments about encouraging the track day rider to show up, work on their skills, and eventually become racers.  Not so long ago, that was me out there doing that very thing. I did, however, enjoy last year's format of the LP track days being on Fridays.  It was a good chance to figure out set-ups, learn new tracks, etc.  By your reposnse, it seems as if the move to Saturday for the LP track days is permanent, at least for this year?  Also, I may have missed it, but what is the cost for the track day now that it has been shortened a bit?  Thanks very much.  

Bottom line:  I just want there to be frequent, concise, communication between CCS officials and "the masses" or racers out there.  People wouldn't feel "left out of the loop" if they were updated from time to time.  And that includes updating the web site too!

Now let's all just shake hands and play nice and hope for the best...including the longevity of CCS.  Afterall, it is OUR club!

Yes, the cost is now $25 for your Sport Rider License (annual fee), then entry will be $75. (We will also be adjusting this because of the cost of the gate pass, say the pass is $15 for one day, your Sport Rider entry will be $60) CCS licensed racers will be $50 if they are running in the Sport Rider sessions. CCS racer practice on Saturday is included with race entry for any class.

We are committed to test this format for the remainder of the 2003 season unless the turn-out increases dramatically. If it does, we will decide how best to handle the situation then.

Hey Kevin,  thanks for the response. Hope all is well with your family.

This was just  one of those things that should have been a "news" item from CCS rather than a rumor of maybe this, maybe that. I must agree with Bob about the communication gap.

I'll call you soon since I do have another question about this.

My only question is why are experts going out on a cold track first instead of the street riders?  

Shouldn't racers paying to race and travelling get the advantage of a little track warm uptime instead of racing on an ice cold track at 8:00 am?

Put the squids out there first and let the track at least get to 50 degrees before we have to go out on it and risk throwing new bikes, new paint, and all winter's preparation down the track.

In short keep the amount of time the same for everyone but move the racers to a bit later so we get track time more in line with the tempratures we race in so we can work on setup instead of guessing, which is what we will be doing if we try to tune and set up in 20 degree cooler weather.  At 8:00 it's only 38 degrees this time of year.  Not a time to be on slicks on a cold track.  :o

Sure, and then the "squids" crash and that eats into everyone's time. Racers on the other hand should hopefully know better. Besides, everyone is paying and traveling out there racer or otherwise.  ;D

Good call.  What he said...

OldRacer, I mean.

Just something to consider...

Street riders are not as experienced with dealing with a cold track.  Many are excited about getting out and riding on the track, and may be a little too generous with the throttle those early sessions.  Racers know all about traction and riding gingerly before picking up the pace.  Most of the tracks I've been to run the experts first, then intermediate, then beginners.  There may be a higher risk of crashes running beginners first.  Not all of them have oil-retaining catch pans, so if a crash happens that first session, everyone waits even longer as stuff gets cleaned up.

Just my thoughts as a rider turned newbie racer.

I mean really... I drive three states and 15 hours to get there and they think I'll cry about higher entry fees?  Hell tires cost more than the entry fees.  I'd pay an extra $20 per race if it meant the street squids were back to a morning session or two and then we could all get back to racing.  

While they are at it maybe we could ditch the " bring whatever crap you have dripping oil on your garage floor" classes and start racing classes that make some sense... even if it costs a little more.  I don't think dropping the quality of racing is the answer to the money problem.  Who's the real target market here anyway?

MZGirl,

Once you've raced for a while you'll realise that the most important thing is consistency in your setup which is almost impossible given this format.

what you don't get is that there is a 30 degree temp difference between 8am and noon and that means your suspension works different, your engine will perform different and your gearing will be different in most cases cause you can't carry as much speed in the corners.

point being:  an 8am practice is meaningless if you are racing at 2:00 the next afternoon.  your setup wil be totally different so why even bother.  you may as well just go preactice on your pit scooter for all the good an 8am practice does you.

I knew there was a reason why I didn't pre-register for this weekend's event. Were we supposed to know before pre-entry registration closed that MWGP was no longer on Saturday's schedule? Would it be reasonable to assume that this is the format around which all of this year's races will be scheduled? If so, how can we find out about Friday practice at future events?

If nobody steps up (as Mr. Baker did this weekend) to host a Friday practice, there will be precious little track time with which to do setups and track learning. How safe is that, especially in the context of EX/AM combined races where some participants may only have a few minutes of exposure to the track with warm tires, suspensions and engines?

Where's the value in driving up to the track for only three practice sessions on Saturday, only to have nothing to do the rest of the day (if not running GT)? That's barely worth the price of the gate fee for which we are all gouged. And we can pay $50 for an additional 30 minutes of track time? Woo-hoo.

BTW, there are no one-day gate passed issued on Saturday. The gatekeepers make you pay for a two-day pass on Saturday, even if you assure them that you aren't coming back on Sunday.

Tim,

You are 100% on target here.  Instead of addressing the problem with rider turnout by offering a better product it seems like w are being asked to pay more for lower quality events.  I don't mind paying as costs increase so I have a place to race next month or next year but his is just stupid.

Those 125 guys got their act together last year and they have a pretty good thing going now... why can't ccs do that for everyone else and cut out the classes that suppot 50 year old crap bikes and concentrate on real racing machines like a good 600 production class and a production superbike class.  quality not quantity... more practice and less BS sprint races with 30 different bike types.

Get back to real racing with real bikes and like 12 classes max.  there's just too many classes out there and not enough time.  I'll pay more if they give me more, quality that is.  hell there's like 25 classes now... what the..?

QuoteLet's get the correct information out there.

Reality is that the Pacific and Southwest events have been financial disasters for the past two years.

Is there any particular reason the Pacific and Southwest events are having issues?  Is it due to racer turn out or the tracks charging more or a combination of both?  If you let the racers know what's happening they may actually be able to come up with some ideas to help...

If I understand what's been posted by CCS about the track day, the cost for licensed racers is $50 minus the $15 gate (gouge) fee?  If that's correct, $35 bones for a couple extra sessions starts to look okay.  Especially since we have to pay that $15 either way.  At least we would actually get something for it instead of it being the typical arbitrary charge.  Anyone want to confirm that I'm right or wrong?

Also, how many of you would rather have the gate charges figured out and included in our entry fees versus having to pay at the track.  I know it's six of one, half dozen of the other but it never ceases to annoy me that I pay to race the event and then have to pay to get in to the facility the event's being held at.  Also, who is getting that money?  I can't believe the faciilty charges a fee to rent the track and then also sits there and charges people to come in.  If that's the case, CCS should resist that to the fullest.  If CCS is charging the money, then WTF?  Do you have to buy tickets to a ball game and then pay to get into the stadium?  I don't see the logic.  If you want to call it an admission ticket, fine.  Charge spectators and friends when they come in.  Doesn't seem right to charge the racers.  I've raced cars for a long time as well, and in most instances, your entry fee includes one or two pit passes for crew.  I've NEVER been charged anything in addition to entry fee to get into the track...

Here here Triple... one fee.. take the guess work out of it... one fee gets you in plus  one crew member.  show your license at the gate... don't have your license yet???  too bad pay the gate fee.. should have registered for that license earlier  ;D  

use wrist bands or something to handle the count... i hate getting nickle and dimed all weekend.  it's like your kids in the back seat asking if we're there yet... it's just annoying and it's just unnecessary.

Great minds...

Hey atleast they aren't making you run with Legends cars. That was the worst thing I've seen done in conjunction with a race weekend. Every session they went out one of them would oil the track, every time.

QuoteIf I understand what's been posted by CCS about the track day, the cost for licensed racers is $50 minus the $15 gate (gouge) fee?  If that's correct, $35 bones for a couple extra sessions starts to look okay.  Especially since we have to pay that $15 either way.  At least we would actually get something for it instead of it being the typical arbitrary charge.  Anyone want to confirm that I'm right or wrong?

I dunno about CCS but in the AFM, as I recall, the tracks gets a percent of the gate fees up to some maximum figure.  For example and I'm making these numbers up, the track gets 10% or $1000 or which ever is smaller of the gate fees.

QuoteIs there any particular reason the Pacific and Southwest events are having issues?  Is it due to racer turn out or the tracks charging more or a combination of both?  If you let the racers know what's happening they may actually be able to come up with some ideas to help...

[size=8]Good point Litespeed. Most of the folks who race are inteligent, logical people (many of whom are succesful business owners). I'm sure someone could offer suggestions for a solution to the problems.

So to answer your question, I think it is both in some aspect, but I'm not sure if it's the tracks that are charging more or if it's Clear Channel. Seems to me they are trying to turn amateur racing into a high-profit businss. That's something it was never meant to be and neveer will be, especially in those regions. If it is the tracks that are raising the prices, why has the cost of independent track days actually gone DOWN in the last year or so?

Also, isn't it ironic that the Pacific and Southwest events have been dubbed "financial disasters for the past two years" when that's the same time Clear Channel took over CCS? Do these rgions have more options for racing than some of the others? Or just smarter racers that aren't going to put up with the crap that Clear channel and CCS are dealing out?

 Looking at the big picture, raising gate and entry fees isn't the answer. Anybody ever heard the phrase "It's better to have little of a lot than a lot of a little"? Keeping it affordable for most people will promote more new interest while maintaining the patronage of existing racers. I spoke recently to a CCS racer (and business owner) who has supported the Southwest series tredemendously in the past two years (showing up for EVERY event and entering 6 to 8 races each time). He said he wouldn't be spending much time at the CCS events in the future because of the constantly increasing cost. Another past loyal supporter said "$100 for a family of four to attend the amateur races is just too far out of line"

To quote a member of the CCS track staff, "We can only hope that Clear Channel sells the CCS series before they run it into the ground"
 [/size]

QuoteDoesn't seem right to charge the racers.  I've raced cars for a long time as well, and in most instances, your entry fee includes one or two pit passes for crew.  I've NEVER been charged anything in addition to entry fee to get into the track...

I concur, I get really upset every time I pay that damn gate fee (as a racer) as well.

In this month's RRW comparison, CCS was found to have among the lowest in racing fees.  In their particular scenario, only $10 more per weekend than the lowest, and significantly lower than some.  I think I would need some type of quantitative analysis to prove to me that CCS is out of line.  The above analysis, the only one I've seen, seems to prove the opposite...

As for gate fees, they (the tracks, CCS, etc..) are going to get their $$ one way or the other.  Fine lower the gate fees or make then free, they will only increase the cost of each race.  The way the fees are structured now enourages racers to enter multiple events for best bang for the buck, albeit at a higher threshold to just get into the game.

Maybe you think CCS makes some outrageous profit?  Prove it to me and I'll help you open another race org.  Reality is they don't make much $$ at all.

QuoteAlso, isn't it ironic that the Pacific and Southwest events have been dubbed "financial disasters for the past two years" when that's the same time Clear Channel took over CCS?

It's also odd that "the past two years" was specifically pointed out.  That's how long the Pacific region has been in existence.  Now it's entirely possible that the SW region has been a financial disaster for much longer than that, but he didn't mention it.

Most SW racers I know have felt that ever since the Pacific region was formed we've been getting a little short changed.  CCS is trying hard to make the Pacific region a success by running more and more SW races in California.  Three years ago we ran 8-9 races in town and 3-4 out of town.  Now it's just the opposite.  I do appreciate the opportunity to ride a variety of tracks, but I simply can't afford to run so many out of town events.  It's even worse when the double points weekend isn't on the home track.  Many racers I know feel the same way and have drastically reduced or eliminated their involvement.

As for gate fees, how is it that the local track days on the same track don't have any gate fees at all?  It's also worth mentioning that the SW gate fees have been cheaper than other places I've seen.

RRW's comparison was made using last years fees, which where reasonable....
as for clear channel making money, `prove it' well clear channel would have to open up their books for anyone to `prove' that and that ain't gonna happen. I would assume that clear channel is trying to make the standard business minimums of 12% margin at the end of the year 10% overhead & 2% profit, spread over the nation this goal is probably met but for some reason pacific/southwest is not meeting quotas set by the corporation. This does trouble me as mentioned before the price of track rental has come down over the past two years sooooo. The only cost that has been rising is insurance which maybe the catch all `especially in California'...... and the only people getting rich off this are our elected officials and thats a whole other `can of worms'.....

As stated above, CCS does not get the entire gate fee.

Also, does CCS pay the same for track rental as does a group renting for a track day? I called Blackhawk Farms once for a rental price when I worked at Buell. They asked what we were renting for, because the price varied. I wouldn't be surprised if CCS paid significantly more than an organization running a track day.

Racing is an expensive hobby. Motorcycle racing is one of the cheaper forms of racing.

CCS is cheaper than most other organizations.  I have run wera, and others and by and large CCS is cheaper.  

The real issue is much deeper than that.  Club racing has never been really organized and it seems that the more we add things like super motard and these other new classes the more fractured the race weekend becomes and the more ALL the events suffer.  like i pointed out yesterday, there are now 26 classes you can run with CCS and that's just absurd.  The weekend is divided up between so many classes you can't get a decent race in any more.  Racers need to figure out what's important and at what point do we need to stop supporting "bring what you got" classes that are representative of 5% of the market.

CCS needs to re-evaluate the entire formula and thing about providing a good solid base of 10-12 classes (not 26) that offer a broad range of interest across the board.  Maybe offering Double headr weekends for key classes like 600 supersport, superbike and 125's so young riders can get a chance to ride and develop more.  A good entry level, low cost class with easy to ride bikes that promote good riding skills that can be attractive to young riders 14 and up, a solid production supersport class, a good production superbike class woiuld be a good start.  Start weeding out the old FZR400's and RZ350's that are so tweaked and rebhuilt they don't even resemble the bikes they started out as.  Some of these grids look like a collection of garbage from Sanford and Sons.

CCS's failures in the SW aren't going to be solved in one year.  They need to identify the real problem, get the riders involved and engaged, modernise their operation and stop trying to cater to everyone with a some old piece of crap bike.  

If they start by offering a quality product and providing well scheduled events that allow for good setup and safe practice then I think the riders will come.  If they continue to provide mediocre events with compromised practice session and more time to street riders than racers (or better track time to street riders) then I fear they are going to continue the downward spiral.  As the quality improves the riders will show up, but CCS has a lot to overcome with quality programs like AFM to compete against.  They just have to do better if they want people to come to their events over others.  Since most of us don't have an infinite supply of money we have to choose who we race with and it's getting tougher and tougher to consider CCS in that decision.

The other issue is with tracks.  We have so many other opportunities in the west but CCS ignores the good tracks like Sears, Portland, and now Arizona.  I'm not saying they don't have some good tracks but who wants to race at Thunderhill in August?  I'd rather take a vacation to Death Valley in August, it's probably cooler.

 :-/

Back to the gouge fee issue: When I used to have a Team Challenge team, we used to pay $160 in gate fees just to get the riders, crew and a couple family members into the paddock (always good to have an RN or SEAL Team medic around) for a one-day race that was typically truncated by nightfall half-way through. That's a bitter pill to swallow.

For those who may have missed it there is going to be a practice on Friday and they are even having one of the groups dedicated to 125 & 250 GP machines for those of us racing GP bikes.  So don't stay home thinking there's no practice when there will be plenty of good racing and practice Friday and Sunday.  

See you all there!  WOOHOO! It's racing season again!

QuoteAlso, does CCS pay the same for track rental as does a group renting for a track day? I called Blackhawk Farms once for a rental price when I worked at Buell. They asked what we were renting for, because the price varied. I wouldn't be surprised if CCS paid significantly more than an organization running a track day.
quote]

No clue what CCS pays for BHF's for the weekend, but guessing near $12K. When a locla group rented BHF's out for a private track day with 44 riders it came out to approx $6600 and only 3-4 actual licensed racers were there. Now the prices most likely wentt up for renting it with the new paving.

BHF does have a scale for rentals depending on who or what you are, individuals are cheapest then it goes up for dealers, schools, clubs, race orgs and manufacturers.

The majority of the gate fee at BHF goes to CCS, the track takes a cut of each gate fee. I know what it was many years ago but not what the current cut is. I'm sure CCS gets 60-75% of it.  Riders should not pay gate fees or you should be allowed one free pass per rider for your wife, girly friend, crew guy or ????  

sdiver, don't kid yourself about how much CCS makes on a race weekend.  I'm sure some regions are down but I know Midwest is and always has been at or near the top of the heap for rider attendance and they make a good chunko'change around here.

I whole heartedly agree about the class mess. There are way too many. The ultra-lightweight thing  was such crap. There used to be a rule that said there needed to be 5 entries for a class. I think we actually had a 1 bike race out there last year, WTF? What's next .... scooters? Or maybe a touring class, full fairings including bags and foot boards required? CD players anyone?

I think most racers will agree that there are too many classes. I know I would prefer fewer, but longer races. So which ones to do away with? Here is a list of the current classes (as per Kevin's post of the midwest schedule), classes listed together are run together.

Thunderbike/LW Sportsman
GTL
Formula 40
GTU
Middleweight Sportsman
GTO
MWGP
MW Superbike
LWGP
Supertwins
HW Superbike
GP Singles/Supersingles/ULW Sportsman
LW Superbike
ULGP
MW Supersport
HW Supersport
LW Supersport
UL Supersport
Sportbike

With some running together - effectively 19 classes.
So which classes could we really do without?

QuoteAs for gate fees, they (the tracks, CCS, etc..) are going to get their $$ one way or the other.  Fine lower the gate fees or make then free, they will only increase the cost of each race.  The way the fees are structured now enourages racers to enter multiple events for best bang for the buck, albeit at a higher threshold to just get into the game.

Maybe you think CCS makes some outrageous profit?  Prove it to me and I'll help you open another race org.  Reality is they don't make much $$ at all.

I'm all for CCS making money.  If they didn't we wouldn't have any place else to race.

Is it really necessary to charge every rider the gate fee?  It seems so nebulous to me.  I mean we are already paying to come there to race, why should we have to pay to get in to the track!  It just doesn't make since, but since we all pay it, it isn't likely to change.

I just think the fee is a little high for people to come watch some schelprocks like me circulate a track.  I mean 25 bucks for 2 days  ::)  Someone has to be saying "Man, for 32 bucks, I can watch a double weekend at Mid-Ohio with 'real' racers"  That's only 7 bucks more to watch some serious factory iron.  So, what is it worth to the average joe to come watch us go around Gateway.

I see a lot more "fans" at the test and tune nights they have at the dragstrip on a Wednesday night than I see at the road course on a Saturday.  Sad really.

QuoteWhat's next .... scooters?  

Ack!  They keep trying to do that at Summit.  It is a sad, sad spectacle :(

If they need to make more money, I'd like to see them do the double headers more often so I can race my 'normal' classes on both Sat and Sun.  I think a lot of people would like this idea...

Let the endurance(30 min) races run on Sat along with the 'regular schedule' then run the other groups not considered 'regular schedule' one Sun with the 'regular schedule'...

Its tough for me to justify a 4-500 dollar trip to race just one day.  But I wouldn't mind spending an extra 100 to get more out of the weekend.

The SW/Pacific region has a problem mostly because the tracks are SO FAR away.  If you did the full season, even living in the optimal location, you still travel way too far.

QuoteSO I am pretty confused on what you are worried about.
  

Eric, I hate to do this to you, because we're friends.  Time and time again, it's been proven that Keven's solution to controversy is to ignore it.  You've chosen to stick your neck out on this issue, so I have to call you on it.  I have a few questions reguarding CCS and their practice policy.  Since you've chosen to comment on this thread, perhaps you can explain these things to me.

I personally feel that we do not get enough practice time, and that the track is way too crowded during practice.  I am definetly not alone in this feeling, as almost everyone I've ever talked to feels the same way.  Lumping together every bike in a displacement catagory for practice can result in massive traffic jams.  In this environment, I can't imagine what would happen if CCS decided to use the transponders to grid us by practice times.  The best racers in the club, running at lap record pace on an overfilled track?  How many helecoptors can you call before lunch?

I raced lightweight last year, but began playing with a middleweight bike as well.  The first time I rode both in the same weekend, I naturally went out to practice in both the lightweight and middleweight sessions.  Two different bikes both need to be sorted, right?  WRONG!!  I was immediately informed by the race director that I had committed an infraction of the rules.  I was told that I was only entitled to go out once each round of practice, even if I had entered two machines of different displacement class.  The director said that "It wouldn't be fair to the guys who only run one motorcycle if I got twice as much practice."  When I asked to be shown the section of the rulebook that stated this rule, I was told that If I wanted to be a $mart@ss, then I'd be thrown out!  Very nice!  Ironically, I've seen other competitors practice the same bike in both lightweight and middleweight, because they were "Racing Up" to the middleweight class with their lightweight bike.  I guess it just depends on whether or not you get caught.  It's true that letting a rider practice each of his bikes would only add to practice track congestion, but it that an issue with greedy riders wanting too much track time, or a general flaw in the way CCS organizes their schedule?

In any other series that I've ever been to, each entry entitles the pilot to practice for that group.  Show up to a car event with a Formula Ford and a Camaro, and you'll get practice time in both.  The AMA and WERA guys get to practice in each class that they enter.  Imagine telling a Bostrom or DuHamel that "you've already been out on your 600, so there'll be no Superbike practice for you, buddy!"  In CCS, if a guy has several bikes, he's supposed to just guess at gearing and jetting when he arrives at a new track for the first time?  He should hope that each bike is running well enough to be safely raced without practicing on each one?  Any official comment on the saftey aspect of that policy?

What it all boils down to is that we don't get enough time to practice.  If a rider intends to be remotely competitive at a new track, he'd better show up for the Friday track day.  There's no way he'll even get to learn the track in the pitiful amount of time alloted to practice by the CCS.  If CCS has figured out how to increase the amount of available practice time, then it should be given to the racers, not track day riders.  The thought that we should have to pay extra to practice in a track day session held during OUR race weekend appalls me.  There is no way for an intelligent person to see the addition of these track day sessions as anything but an attempt by CCS to squeeze more money out of the available time in a weekend.  To say that racers won't lose any track time is a joke.  The only time the track has ever gone cold during a race weekend was when the corner workers were having lunch.  If you add sessions, the time has to come from somewhere.  There is only so much daylight, or so many hours in a track's sound restriction policy.  More sessions can only mean shorter sessions.  Please, explain the error of my thought process here!

Sorry Eric.  I don't mean this as a personal attack.  The riders have complained about this situation for years, and things seem to be getting worse instead of better.  You seem to be the only official with enough balls to even discuss it in a public forum.  I guess that puts you in the hot seat.

Hmm...

All good thoughts.

Yes, too many classes.  Indeed, CCS racing is sportsman racing, which means that it is a competitor event, not really a spectator event.  That means that we, the riders, families, and crew, bear the brunt of the expense.  Face it, who here has a program worthy of a show?  Yes, some are doing a better job at it...

Drag racing?  Hey, just about anyone can do that from a stop light.  Road racing just doesn't attract everyone.  How many times have you gotten across what you do to someone and they think you're crazy?  Quite often, I would think.  And a road racing enthusiaist moves around the track.  At a drag race, you can sit in the stands and drink while watching the whole track.  

Cost of the track?  Those numbers sound about right to me.  CCS's advantage is that they pay their insurance in one lump sum for their events world wide...  So, their insurance has additional things and costs probably 66% less than what I pay.  But I don't even want to think about what the total bulk payment is.  Probably the GNP of some contries.

I know that you can rent the track, if you have a racing license or you know the Irwins, for a reasonable cost.  You don't have any insurance too.  But you don't get an ambulance or staff, etc.  You're on your own.

Back to classes...   More classes, more opportunities for entries.  I mean, it takes so much money to pay for the track and all the expenses.  If you can build a new class, you can have more entries.  I think that some of those new classes are designed to allow some SuperMotard bikes in.  Not much happening there yet.  Might never, but who knows.  Seems like GT Lights was small, and the Lightweight classes were looking pretty bare until the SV's became so popular.

I guess the problem might be that if we have fewer classes, the entry fees might have to go up to offset the expense.

I for one think that "superbike" classes are redundant.  Eliminate them and have them run in "grand prix".  That would open up nearly an hour on Sunday.

Practice?  Yeah, this is a real safety issue.  What gives?  Again, this is sportsman racing, so we should not feel completely obligated to have to come to a practice day, should we?  There should be a reasonable expectation of an opportunity to go through machine and rider checks during a race day.

I see that LCR will now have three practice sessions on Saturday rather than two, in addition to the mock race.  Is it time to enter that for Saturday practice?

This is sportsman racing, but the technology in our production racing is moving more toward full on racing hardware.  Example:  DOT tires NEED tire warmers.  Things were different years ago with bias ply tires, and things were different with the radials of just a few years ago.  In 1999, when I returned to regular racing with CCS after racing for others, I found that the DOT technology was pretty much like a racing slick...it NEEDED heat.

As for not allowing a rider to ride his two bikes?  I think that's BS!  That's a safety issue to me.  Someone had the analogy about an AMA race, but lets make it a better example...  When Barney raced the Hooter's bikes and the Buell, I'm sure they didn't make him choose one or the other because of an unfair advantage...  I thought having to pay the extra tire and fuel bill would be enough of a disadvantage, not to mention the work, that the extra time on the track (how much time are we talking here, fifteen minutes?) would be inconsequential...

 ;Dhelloeveryone
I know this is not the cure but it it the best I could do. I am hosting a friday track day for all CCS racers at the streets of willow on 31 jan. Cost is $125.00 and if all goes well (with both my side and yours) I will host days before the next races in May and Nov.
I know this does not adress the problem directly and it only covers 1 track but... If I am willing to do this other shop owners near a raceway might too.
If interested please contact: Kelly Baker's Performance Unlimited (661)256-7246

QuoteSeems to me they are trying to turn amateur racing into a high-profit businss. That's something it was never meant to be and neveer will be, especially in those regions. If it is the tracks that are raising the prices, why has the cost of independent track days actually gone DOWN in the last year or so?

Also, isn't it ironic that the Pacific and Southwest events have been dubbed "financial disasters for the past two years" when that's the same time Clear Channel took over CCS?

I think SFX Motorsports saw CCS racing as an opportunity.  CCS was a consistant opportunity to have a hold in motorcycle road racing across the nation.  I mean, honestly, there is no other organization that has so many events, and they are across the nation.  AFM, well, you're got a couple of tracks.  Same with WSMC, OMRRA, WMRRA, MRA, CRA, we can go on....    

Clear Channel Entertainment has a tendancy to buy companies to fill their need of fulfilling a niche in the market.  SFX was what they wanted.  Are they making big bucks?  No, but there is some return on their investment.

As for the Pacific regions being a disaster... Sounds like things are improving.  But as that business saying goes, "I loose money on every sale I make;  I just make up for it in volume!"  Hopefully, things will turn around.  You've got to crawl before you walk or run.  

Track days?  My costs have escalated unbelieveably, but my prices have remained reasonably consistent because I've been able to attract more customers.  I don't have gate fees either.  I don't want to have to pay someone to collect those fees all day at the gate...

To Chris O. :  You are right on the money and I truly appreciate your additional perspective on this issue!  I started this thread...thought maybe I had seen something that no one else could see...and now am convinced that others are seeing the reality of the situation as well.  Are you going to be at Willow this weekend?  I know there is going to be some hot and heavy "discussions" to attend :o  Thanks again for seeing the light and speaking your mind!

Scott -

I completely agree with you on fees for spectators or volunteer pit crew.  That was a differnet thread posted not too long ago.  I think they are charged way too much, and defeintely cuts the number of people who attend, or days they attend.

S_D-

Yeah, good point, certain Superbike and GP classes are pretty redundant.  When you throw in Sportbike, which is kinda MW Superbike or GP in practice if not in theory, that adds another.

QuoteTo Chris O. :  You are right on the money and I truly appreciate your additional perspective on this issue!  I started this thread...thought maybe I had seen something that no one else could see...and now am convinced that others are seeing the reality of the situation as well.  Are you going to be at Willow this weekend?  I know there is going to be some hot and heavy "discussions" to attend :o  Thanks again for seeing the light and speaking your mind!

Does this mean you are going to be making a scene?  And if so can you make sure I am there to witness it :).

How about this-

Let's all think positively about this weekend and perhaps we'll see that everything's going to work out fine.  I have faith in it--believe me, I've gone over and over this schedule to learn what's changing, and I really think that once it starts it won't seem so bad.  You guys know that things on this board start as a grain of sand and end up in huge peeing matches.  I'm not saying that you don't have a right to how you feel, or that your points are invalid, or that everyone's right.  All I'm saying is that you give this new format a chance before you curse it into oblivion.

Please call me if you have questions about the schedule.  I have seen some inaccurate information on this site, even after Kevin's post, and you guys can always call me and get the right stuff...along with a nice Texas accent to brighten your day.
 ;D

QuoteHmm...


I see that LCR will now have three practice sessions on Saturday rather than two, in addition to the mock race.  Is it time to enter that for Saturday practice?

Actually we did the 3 practices at selected events in 2001 and had the 3 practices at all of our midwest dates in 2002. Sorry, licensed riders are not eligible :).

I also agree on the redundancy of the superbike classes, especially with the introduction of the Sportbike class.

Chris that was not my point but I do not disagree with what you are saying; practice for each bike type you enter; does make sense to me.

My point is with the LP day inculded in SW/PC schedule you still recieve as many practice sessions as without it . That's it nothing more, nothing less same amount of practice sessions. By looking at the way the schedule is done there must be some give and take to allow CCS to make a approatiate profit in that region. How to do that? Kevin has hinted that one day events would be other alternative. I would think for most people a little later day (that is what the schedule looks like to me) on Sunday compared to other regions is better and maintaining all the classes is best route.

And to dismiss the track time as being of less quality because of there being a bunch of people on the track goes against what the problem is there(SW/PC) there are NOT enough riders to justify the normal schedule you see at the events in MW/GL/GP so the resulting combining of classes/Sport Rider day in THAT region.  So comparing what happens at your event with split classes and large grids is not the same for other regions where grids are smaller and LT and even some of the mediumweight classes are combined. For SW/PC region the run a total of 21 races for MW/GP/GL you have 25 in your region 16 of which are on Sunday they have only two more on Sunday so ~30 minutes more track time. SO no Chris I don't take that as a personal attack it is just different set of circumstances than what you are dealing with/used to.

QuoteLet's all think positively about this weekend and perhaps we'll see that everything's going to work out fine.  I have faith in it--believe me, I've gone over and over this schedule to learn what's changing, and I really think that once it starts it won't seem so bad.  You guys know that things on this board start as a grain of sand and end up in huge peeing matches.  I'm not saying that you don't have a right to how you feel, or that your points are invalid, or that everyone's right.  All I'm saying is that you give this new format a chance before you curse it into oblivion.

 ;D

Since I'm racing this weekend, I'm gonna weigh in (for whatever it mean:-)...

Tiffany, I appreciate all the hard work you and everyone at CCS do, considering the small staff you guys have. I'm not gonna get into money issues either as that's a never ending thread... but I have a major concern this weekend:


I'm an amatuer.. not the fastest, but by no means the slowest. I have never ridden Willow before, and if you look at the practice schedule (see below).... I have to run with EVERY amatuer AND the WHOLE Advanced LPUSA riders (with horsepower ranges from 40 to 160). How many riders will be out there 10? 20? 50? 100? I wish someone would explain to me how that is safe? I'm trying to learn a new track and I know I'm gonna be in the way of riders who've ridden there before and are faster than me. Not just that but, it's supposed to be 38ish degrees at our first practice. I have tire warmers, but what about the 'advanced' street riders? Most likely they'll be on ice (literally) cold tires.

Last year, the practices were broken up somewhat (see Sunday practice schedule) but they were still crowded... now it's just gonna be plain unsafe. I'm glad you 'have faith' and I hope (for CCS, your right). But hey that' my opinion.... I'll still be there ready to ride. (But if my bike gets wadded up by some squid on cold tires from the LPUSA who thinks he's a racer, I'm gonna be p*ssed)

8:00AM        Practice as follows:
∑ Group 1: All Expert Licensed Racers
Group 2: All Amateur Licensed Racers
and LP USA Advanced Riders
∑ Group 3: All LP USA Sport Riders
∑ Group 4: All LP USA Street Riders

∑ Group 1: All Expert Licensed Racers
∑ Group 2: All Amateur Licensed Racers
and LP USA Advanced Riders
∑ Group 3: All LP USA Sport Riders
∑ Group 4: All LP USA Street Riders

∑ Group 1: All Expert Licensed Racers
∑ Group 2: All Amateur Licensed Racers
and LP USA Advanced Riders
∑ Group 3: All LP USA Sport Riders
∑ Group 4: All LP USA Street Riders
∑ Group 5: Riders School Practice

11:15AM      Lunch Break      

Thanks for listening....

Eric- Thanks for the response, but I thought the practices (without LPUSA) were crowded last year... maybe I wasn't used to it (first year). It certinately wasn't like any track day i was used to.

I'll see what happens this weekend. I hope you and the rest of CCS are right.

But, I do like the discussion.... heck, I'd even be happy if it works out. My brother rides, but he's not a licensed racer and it would be an opportunity to ride a race/track day weekend together...

I am going to be a vision of optimism from this moment on... ;D ;D ;D

But if things do get as congested and unsafe as the schedule appears to imply, I will stop racing with CCS and make other arrangements.  

I've got my fingers AND ties crossed on this one... :(

That's "toes"...

I'm doing the track practice Friday and will likely just spectate all day Saturday.  I'm a pretty good photographer and bringing plenty of film so if someone needs pics taken let me know.  I am also anxious to see what happens with the new schedule and kind of relieved I am not a part of it for this first round.  I have NO doubt that CCS will have everything ironed out and functioning smoothly at the remainder of the events this year.

QuoteMy point is with the LP day inculded in SW/PC schedule you still recieve as many practice sessions as without it . That's it nothing more, nothing less same amount of practice sessions.

Actually, now that the Sport Rider days are not being held on Friday, there is a lot less available practice time. By a lot less, I mean about eight hours less. You can't learn a track in three cold sessions, nor can you do any relevant setup work. If you ride a two-stroke, you can't even ballpark your jetting!

You'd think that the elimination of the Team Challenges and the sidecar races would have opened things up sufficiently to spread the racing across two days, such that a person could do some meaningful racing on either day. That, or Saturday could be practice-only, like it is in Florida, where registered racers could get a whole day's worth of practice at no additional charge, not just three frantic, red-flag-shortened flails. As it is now, Saturday is a hurry-up-and-wait affair where one might get two or three fast laps in, unless one opts to cough up more cash to do two more brief sessions before packing up for the night. That's not a whole lot of track time, and not a very efficient use of the ten hours of daylight that winter race days afford.

I'll think as positively about this as I can, but as they say in Texas, you can't polish a turd.

QuoteI raced lightweight last year, but began playing with a middleweight bike as well.  The first time I rode both in the same weekend, I naturally went out to practice in both the lightweight and middleweight sessions.  Two different bikes both need to be sorted, right?  WRONG!!  I was immediately informed by the race director that I had committed an infraction of the rules.  

Chris, I just want to give you a point of comparison.  Here in the SW region they DO let you ride one practice group for each class of bike you run.  If you have a LW and MW bike you get two sessions.  If you have two LW bikes I think you only get one session.  The race director specifically pointed this out to us during several riders meetings last year.  If you continue to have troubles with the race director in your region you need to speak with Kevin about it.

QuoteI think we actually had a 1 bike race out there last year, WTF? What's next .... scooters?

HAHAHAH LOL!!!

I know that guy.  It was at Gingerman towards the end of last season.  He bragged and bragged to my friends and family about how he took a win before DanO and I did.

He caught some serious sh*t for it when we eventually looked up the results and saw that he was the only one in the race.  Hilarious.

Feels good when somebody you absolutely can't stand finally gets put in his place for the BS he pulls.  I hate people who are full of sh*t  ;D

hey, i won a 1 bike race last year!   AM HW Sportsman at Streets of Willow.   Double points too!

whoo hoo!