Motorcycle Racing Forum

Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 21, 2003, 06:47:53 PM

Title: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 21, 2003, 06:47:53 PM
     I noticed in the license renewal brochure that the gate fees are going up to $15/1 day, $25/2 days, and $35/3days. I very much question if this is overall beneficial to our sport? I have had enough trouble convincing people to come out to the track at $10 per head - I imagine it will be really difficult now at $15 for 1 day! I personally think that the more people we can get spectating our sport the better. More spectators = more sponsers, more potential media coverage, and more potential future racers. If it had not been for a freinds persistance in getting me to spend the money and go spectate at BHF, I may have never gotten into this sport in the first place (sadly the gate fee was deterring me from going on my own).
     As much as I hate to say this, I would be willing to pay these higher rates if it meant that the non-racers could get in at a lower rate. Once you get into double digit gate fees people are alot more reluctant to spend the cash, especially when multiple people are attending from a family. If Mom, Dad, and the 2 kids were to go at these prices it would cost them $60 for 1 day - truely discouraging this from being a family activity to attend multiple times per year. I think that $8 or $9 is much more in line with drawing crowds (costing this same family of four $32 or $36).
     Am I totally off base with this or do the rest of you agree?
Title: fans must travel juRe: Concerned about our future
Post by: K3 Chris Onwiler on January 21, 2003, 07:38:52 PM
I'm cheap, so I hate it when stuff costs more.  I suppose the ever-climbing insurance rates could be to blame.  Are we entertaining enough to charge $15 per day to watch us?  Absolutly.  Would $15 a day deter someone who actually wanted to watch?  I don't think so.  
I used to ride 20,000 miles a year when I had a street bike.  Most street riders do 2-3 thousand per year.  They just don't like to ride for long distances.  No one lives close to any race track, so there's travel involved.  This is the problem.  I've tried to get hundreds of riders to come to the track, even offering to pay their gate fees.  I've had maybe 20 actually show up, and most have eventually become racers.  People just aren't willing to drive 100 miles each way, and commit their entire day or weekend to going to an amateur race.  Look at the miserable turnout we had at Road America for the F-USA/CCS weekend.  MAYBE 1000 people who weren't in some way connected to a competitor.  Compare that crowd to the June Sprints car race there.  This for a Pro/Am motorcycle race at one of the most famous circuts in the country?
I was equally bummed by the turnout at the ROC in Daytona.  I've been to the SCCA car runoffs at Mid Ohio and Road Atlanta, and they had ten times as many people watching.
I sure don't know the solution.  Speed Channel coverage would sure help.  What American viewer really cares about Grass Track racing in the communist bloc?  I would think that at least our Runoffs would be worth a later-date airing.  Until the public becomes aware of what we do, there won't be a real spectator base for us.  Free gate fees for spectators wouldn't change that.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: R6Chris760 on January 21, 2003, 08:46:27 PM
One thing we could all do to promote our sport is to give local dealers information on CCS.  Specifically race dates and locations.  I'm sure if all the dealers in one town of say 100,000 know of the event, at least a few people may be inclined to go watch or participate in the LP track day.  Just my $0.02.

Chris Watts
EX 760
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 21, 2003, 09:16:26 PM
     I live in Rockford,Il. which is right next to BHF and am use to having this luxury. I guess in the case where you don't live near a track it wouldn't make near as much difference about the gate fee if you have to travel to get there anyway.
     I compare this issue to the local 1/4 mile drag strip which charges similar gate fees to spectators. I can't even count the number of times that I have heard potential spectators complaining about the gate fees for their family to go to the drag strip - even for a semi-major event there. I have freinds that have told me if the fee was less they would go all the time to watch my brother run his 9 second Camaro.
     Similarly is our local 1/4 mile paved oval speedway. It is entertaining enough, but almost everyone I have ever talked to (that is going purely for entertainment) has complained about the gate fee, and that they would like to take their kids more often but can't really afford to.
     As for the die hard enthusiasts, I don't think that the price is as big of an issue to them. But they are the majority of the spectators currently, not too many non-enthusiasts looking for entertainment are coming to our events. I do agree that advertising locally (to the track) is a definate requirement, but finding economical ways to do it is the key. Even cleverly placed picture ads in the newspapers local to the track could help. By the way, Rockford is in Winnebago county, same as BHF, population of nearly 1/4 million!
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 22, 2003, 02:34:42 AM
Boy, this is a hard issue.  

CCS racing is sportsman racing.  But it is pretty intense.  The gate fees are there, they are high in some ways, but they are pretty comperable with other events.

TV, etc...

CART is a really terrible organization.  Why is it so big?  The teams promote themselves and the races that they are going to.  That's what draws the crowd and the TV.  THIS IS THE KEY!

Organizations are kind of like meetings...  Nothing really important was ever really accomplished by either.

AMA Superbike racing really exceled recently because the manufacturers and teams started investing in their racing and advertising what they do and where they do it.

The opposite problem happens in FUSA.  The teams are relatively fragmented and under funded.  

Scott Zampach was a good racer.  He did get beat on occasion.  Usually when he did, it was at places where there was no press.  But he won at places where there was great press.  That helped his program get the help it needed to go on to do what he did.

CCS spends loads of money making really nice wall hangings for dealerships.  But unless the dealership hangs it in a place where someone can see it...

And if you're "sponsored" by a dealership, unless they let their customers know that it sponsors you....

And unless you actually type out a list of results for your dealership, they don't knonw how you do.  And even if you did poorly, they would be happy to hear how you did.  Afterall, they probably can't do what you're doing.

Comments?
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 22, 2003, 04:41:16 AM
I agree with Chris, Chris & Dave.
If someone wants to come watch, there gonna pay the 10 or 15 $.

OK So think about it like this.. say it's $15 on Sun... racing (is supposed to) start at 10:30 and go till ~4:30, with 1 hour break... that's 5 hours of racing = $3/hour. OK, so not really, ya wanna get technical?... then go with 14 races.. that's $1+ per race.

Look at what you pay for an AMA event, the 'per race' or 'per hour' rate. Sure the experience/environment is there... but if you (friends, family) just want to watch a live motorcycle race who cares? The better bang-for-your-buck is a CCS race :) PLUS you're the one racing!

I have friends that came to watch me on my first race weekend in April, my engine seized in morning practice on Sun. I had 8-10 friends come out ~11a just to find out that I wasn't gonna be racing, but they hung out and watched. They liked it so much, that they are now gonna come to all the races @ VIR this year. And every time my one friend comes, he brings another one. Now he loads up his SUV w/ people & beer and drive the WHOLE hour to VIR :)

The gate fee issue is pretty beat. We want it less, CCS wants it same/more.. it's not gonna budge... so instead of making it seem like too much, talk up the races... make people believe that $15 is worth watching 14 races!
It's all about marketing... word of mouth costs nothing, a 30 sec. ad on the networks costs a lot.

Even if you lower the price... how many more people would that draw.. honestly probably not too much... I think laziness/drive/interest is the deterring factor, not the price. Whether it's $5 or $15, ya still gotta make people aware that there's races going on.

How much does it cost you to make up a stupid little flyer and drop it in people's mailboxes, take it to dealers, stores, schools, etc.?  not much.

IE: I keep getting this flyer from this dude Henry De Gouw, in FL. It's a color flyer promoting the CCS races at Homestead. I think it looks good. That gave me the great idea of copying/making one for the VIR races and distributing them here.
If you haven't seen it, I can scan it in for ya and post it here.

Whew... sorry, just my .02
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: schpreck on January 22, 2003, 05:27:23 AM
IE: I keep getting this flyer from this dude Henry De Gouw, in FL. It's a color flyer promoting the CCS races at Homestead. I think it looks good. That gave me the great idea of copying/making one for the VIR races and distributing them here.
If you haven't seen it, I can scan it in for ya and post it here


Hey now...Flyers...Why didn't I think of that?!  I would love it if you would post that flyer so I could steal the design for my area.  or e-mail it to schpreck@cox.net.  
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Jeff on January 22, 2003, 07:03:32 AM
I guess my only real comment of value (if I can jump on the band-wagon full of whine) would be that I think it sucks to be a competitor and have to pay the gate fee...

I'm providing the entertainment!  

I'd like to see 2 gate entries with license purchase/event registration.  But that's cheap ole me...

As for the sponsor thing and promotion thing...  I run a pretty good promotional program for all my events and sponsors.  It's beneficial back to my sponsors.  To the point of 10's of thousands of dollars each year in some cases added to their bottom lines.  

Does this affect the crowd at a race?  Dunno... I suppose by a few people it does.  But nothing "massive".  

TV coverage would be nice and draw larger crowds.  I think it sucks that high school football/basketball/hockey are covered on local channels, but road racing is forgotten.

Friggin Nascar mentality...  >:(
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 22, 2003, 08:12:19 AM
     I agree that word of mouth is defenitely a good way to promote our sport, but it does have it's limitations. I also agree that our sport is alot more exciting to watch than so many other things that people could be doing on their day off. I personally have never seen a CCS advertisement at a dealership before and I have been thinking about doing something about that. Kinkos can make relatively large banners fairly economically, I just have to find out what the dealerships will display (size wise). I assume that CCS has some type of advertising budget figured into all the fees that they collect, and I have an idea on how to put it to good use.
     Cycle News has a deal where they will print race coverage - if you write it! If I remember correctly they give you some type of an info kit to help you get started. What I think would be a good idea is if CCS would offer to individuals the opportunity to do a little of the leg work for them for free. If CCS were to provide banners, flyers, local advertising coverage at their cost, then an interested person could do the work of getting this material out to the local area near a track. I live so close to BHF that I would have no problem offering myself to go to all the local dealerships in the area, get ads published, etc. as long as CCS would help with the cost. A packet similar to what Cycle News provides could be used to help guide myself and other volunteers along the right path to effective advertising. I believe that there is at least 1 person near every track CCS uses that would be willing to offer their time to help out.
     Lastly I had an idea of having business cards printed that have all the race dates for that region, directions to the local track, CCS's web address, and even my own e-mail address to provide answers to questions. Boxes of these could be left at the dealerships so people would stick them in their wallet for immediate reference if they ever got the desire to attend our races.
     Though I believe these things would help, I also believe that this advertising is still more focused on the current enthusiast. Non motorcyle related advertising such as in the local newspaper or on the radio might prove very beneficial. Live radio broadcast from the track (on a locally popular music station) might prove very effective and usually is preceeded that week by random advertising for the event coming up.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: magyar on January 22, 2003, 09:41:23 AM
How many times have you met someone and told them you race motrocycles, only to have them respond "motocross"? The only way our sport is going to get any recognition is if the AMA does a better job promoting it. Like it or not it is the premier "brand" in our country. Motorcycle road racing is by far the most exciting racing there is. The red neck wreck fest called nascar pales in comparison, yet look at it. Most "common" people don't even know of our meager existence. Unfortunatly if our sport ever gets the recognition it deserves ,that will only drive up gate fees. So there in lies the problem. Do we remain do we remain small potatoes and increase our gate fees by a few bucks each year. Or rocket into the main stream and make gate fees so expensive it will be impossible for the competitors to afford the already costly weekends. And that's the rest of the story
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 22, 2003, 10:32:15 AM
     I believe the reason that NASCAR has such a large spectator base is the whole association thing with driving. Pretty much everyone drives cars or trucks and has been for as long as they could, therefore each person has their own idea as to how they would do it themself if in the racers position, based on their own personal ability. The same applies to sports such as football, many have played or still play the game at a purely recreational level and have their own ideas as to how it should be done which inturn creates an association. The motorcycle community does not have this massive association factor in it's favor, and ultimately riding motorcycles can be somewhat intimidating to those who do not ride for themself.
     I personally never got into the football thing and would not normally seek it on TV, but if I stumbled onto it I may watch it for a while for entertainment. I think that our sport is in much the same position, if presented to the general public more aggressively they might at least go see what it's all about and possibly find it entertaining.
     Another issue that many may not consider is that race tracks often come under attack by locals who didn't think ahead and moved right by a race track, and now are complaining about the noise/traffic. The last several years have seen BHF, the Rockford Speedway, and Byron Dragway all come under attack locally because shady developers are building new housing right by these tracks and mis-leading the home purchasers as to the minimal noise levels generated by racing. Byron Dragway has already seen strict noise restrictions implemented and had their operating hours limited by the county due to complaints. The more people we can get involved in our sport the more people that will be on our side in these issues.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Chef on January 22, 2003, 10:59:59 AM
QuoteI guess my only real comment of value (if I can jump on the band-wagon full of whine) would be that I think it sucks to be a competitor and have to pay the gate fee...

I'm providing the entertainment!  

I'd like to see 2 gate entries with license purchase/event registration.  But that's cheap ole me...

  
TV coverage would be nice and draw larger crowds.  I think it sucks that high school football/basketball/hockey are covered on local channels, but road racing is forgotten.

   >:(

your stomach ever turn at these high school students getting drafted into the pro's for millions simply because they can dunk and shoot a basketball, and a little taller ??      reason is, people pay to see them perform, to entertain...
i'd think the police and school teachers and fire fighters would be the most important.... go figure.....

for my tu sense...
im ok  to pay a bit to enter and use the facilities for myself, but if there are people paying to see us, we should at least get a discount, if not millions......
making a three pointer is not life threatening ......

ikedrty
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: chris_chops on January 22, 2003, 11:36:56 AM
Many of us racers are individuals and we were led to this sport because it is was our individual goal to race and challange ourselves and the limits of speed.  Fortunately, we meet similar people and build lasting friendships with other racers and people who invovle themselves in this intense sport.  Within the gates of blackhawk on any particular weekend is a gathering of what I consider to be a blend of individuals, ambitious freaks, talented atheletes, challengers and the challenged.  All together we are still a fringe society.  Name one other racer from your highschool or college.  In Chicago, I have never met another racer other than at a motorcycle shop.  The chances of meeting another racer in America is 1 in 54000.  My math may be flawed, sorry.  I'm going off of approx.5000 liscened racers and approx. 270million Americans.  What is entertaining about motorcycle roadracing to the other 53,999 people for every one of us?  I know why we like it, but why would anyone else?  What would make it more entertaining and what do we have to gain or lose from it?  I have some ideas but I'd love to hear some others?  Dave, if you already have a book on the subject, I'll take a signed copy at the banquet.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Chef on January 22, 2003, 11:44:21 AM
OOOOHHHH !!!!

KC124 !!!!

those serving our country should also earn more than the defensive player of the year....

<singin>
go KC, its ya brthday....... go KC..........

Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Lowe119 on January 22, 2003, 12:21:11 PM
What about promoting at huge rides or motorcycle get-togethers?  I put a couple lights on my race bike (granted mine is still close to stock) and went to the Crud Run outside of Madison, WI in October. Almost everyone there (usually hundreds show up) went over and scoped my bike out. I was too shy to stand by it and explain to people what it was about, but the people I did talk to didn't even know our races existed.  This ride happens twice a year (May and October) and is always a huge turnout. If someone who would benefit from more race spectators or participants had some sort of display or booth, the word might get out a lot more (at least in this area).

Motorcycle Performance had their two Ducatis there, but it seemed pretty intimidating to approach the guy.  I tried to play my bike off as street legal so I didn't attract attention. I just wanted to ride.

It took me almost a year of asking dealers, mechanics, and riders to even find out that these races were only 50 minutes away. I know there are a lot of people that think the only ones close are the AMA races at RA.

I'm just putting in my 2 cents also. I'm hoping some of you with more ideas will expand on these thoughts
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Nate R on January 22, 2003, 12:51:44 PM
I'll be street riding my bike this year, too. (Race bike with lights)

I'm hoping that a side benifit will be promoting a positive image for M/C racers, and helping raise awareness of the sport, and more importantly, my sponsors!  :D
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Speedballer347 on January 22, 2003, 01:02:45 PM
QuoteAnd if you're "sponsored" by a dealership, unless they let their customers know that it sponsors you...
Dave, I am sponsored by a local dealer (cost on parts) and they actually told me when we set up the deal, to "not tell anyone, cause they don't want all the racers coming in trying to get discounts" ;D ::)

$15 bucks a day is too much for spectators.  I can guarantee that my friends, and their friends, and their friends aren't going to ride all the way to our local track and pay that.
Club racing's OK if you are doing it, but it isn't that cool to watch...I prefer watching Rossi for free while I pound chips on my easy chair ;D

I sure wouldn't pay $15 bucks to watch you guys :D ;)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: TZDeSioux on January 22, 2003, 01:16:14 PM
What can you buy with $15 these days anyway? 3 packs of cigarettes cost $15. Can't even eat a decent steak for $15. A day at the race track as a spectator is worth more to me than to go see a movie and eat a bucket of popcorn for the same price.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: spyderchick on January 22, 2003, 01:21:20 PM
If you tell 2 people and they tell 2 people and they tell 2 people...

Maybe CCS should rip off that old shampoo ad and put on local stations the weekend before we race.

Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Speedballer347 on January 22, 2003, 01:31:03 PM
QuoteWhat can you buy with $15 these days anyway? 3 packs of cigarettes cost $15. Can't even eat a decent steak for $15. A day at the race track as a spectator is worth more to me than to go see a movie and eat a bucket of popcorn for the same price.
If there was a wheelie shootoff at the end of the day's events...I know plenty of squids who would cut down on their smoking to see that ;)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: f1fty0n3 on January 22, 2003, 01:49:06 PM
I would have to agree with jef4y on this one.  Just to get myself and my girlfriend in the gate will be $70 for the weekend, and over $700 for the year, even though I am participating and shelling out another couple hundred bux for races.  I think a valid CCS license should get at least the competitor in the gate.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 22, 2003, 02:37:48 PM
OK I've scanned in that flyer.. I'll start a new thread with it so everyone can find it easily.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Frank_Angel on January 22, 2003, 02:56:09 PM
Last year FUSA had a "grassroots" promotional program where they would send promotional materials, including large posters, to anyone willing to help promote the races locally. I don't know who else did, but we helped out and handed out a few hundred of them, especially for the Summit Point and Pocono events. Had them posted at all of the local bike shops, and many restaurants and convenience stores.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Baltobuell on January 22, 2003, 04:07:41 PM
 I had my (yes I know it almost doesn't count) Buell for over a year before I even heard of track days. I had no idea CCS existed. The big problem with roadracing for spectators is you can't see unless it's a nascar track. Dirt track grandstands are usually full for a national.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: the_weggie_man on January 22, 2003, 04:20:39 PM
Soon there will be nothing left of this dead horse to beat on any longer.......... people, this is a car oriented society we live in and I don't care if you had $2 gate fees the stands would still be empty. The street squids don't care and the rest only know NASQUEER.

As for CCS gate fees, it all comes down to insurance and track rentals. They go up, your gate fees go up, end of story except for this.... when the track raises their cut of the gate fee $1-$2 per person to CCS, don't be surprised if CCS doesn't just cover their expense but makes it $5 on your end and comes up with a good deal more profit.  As an ex race director, I saw it happen more than once.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 22, 2003, 04:37:55 PM
Bam!

Great stuff, Gordy...

Shall we share what entry fees were years ago with everyone?

It comes down to insurance and rental.  I know way too much about that.

Stop people from getting money for having no common sense, maybe insurance costs will come down....

As for the AMA, WERA, CCS, etc. being "responsible" for advertising...

I think it is too much for them to get that done.  Sure, there are things that they could do...

But who is this for anyway?

First, CCS and WERA racing are sportsman event's.  It's not a pro event, but there isn't a good differentiation between pro's and not pro's...  In ways, that benefits the guys that are doing local stuff.  It doesn't take too much, compared to other motorsports, to have a pro machine, and some pro's compete in local sportsman events.

In 1991, I was interviewed by a TV station for my road racing and the up coming AMA national at Heartland Park Topeka.  I did that, not the AMA, not anyone else.  That was good for me, and the AMA.

Self promotion, although self serving, is the best way to do this.  

Do you type out anything for your sponsors after a race?  No.  Gotta do it.  

Send anything to a newspaper?  Go to a school's career day?  Whatever...

We grow by building our own programs, not by the AMA, CCS, WERA, AHRMA, CRA, OMRRA, AFM, etc. doing anything.

People would much rather watch YOU race than a bunch of other people they don't know.

You go to watch Nicky or Eric, not the AMA Superbikes.

It's all about personalities.  NASCAR. as much as some don't like them, understands that it's about personalities.

Here's my pet peeve...  CCS, WERA, AMA ads in mags that have pictures of riders with no caption with a name.  Who does that help.

Would you rather watch some nameless guy ride a bike or Rossi on anything.  
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 22, 2003, 05:27:06 PM
Right on Dave!

So.. as a matter of fact.. I can get you an article written on a local newspaper's Web site, and printed in the actual newspaper... it depends on how many I get. I can almost guarantee
it on the Web site, instantly. The paper?...  The Carolina Breeze, www.carolinabreeze.com

How can I do that... welll.. I'm the Webmaster. Send me photos and articles. Bruce Wilkins is the editor, in case you've seen him, he posts alot on the 'other' org's site.

I'll talk to him tomorrow about making a special 'racer' section, since 'tis the season, where maybe we can post little bio's and photos of us.
Yea.. sounds like a good idea to me. His paper is growing and now he's gearing up for the racing season, trying to get some articles going.

Actually FUSA has an example of what I want to do....
http://www.formulausa.com/roadrace/riders.asp
Since they always seem to be struggling with their site, I figure we can put them on the newspaper's site.

So 3 things I'm looking to discuss with Bruce are
1.  Getting articles from you/us/racers about racing, experiences, etc.
2.  Making a 'riders profiles' section
3.  Posting photos

Actually... SEND ME PHOTOS NOW. I can post those in the photo gallery w/o talking to bruce, he LOVES PHOTOS. Let's set it at max of 2 per person. (just so we don't get swarmed with em)

When you send me a photo, also send a 20-25 word caption to go along with it.


Hey, I know it's no Washington Post, but it's exposure and something to show sponsors, & people.

STAY TUNED!
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 22, 2003, 05:44:56 PM
     I feel like I started an out of control wild-fire here, not quite what I was expecting for responses. I like the whole idea of a local volunteer to each track doing the leg work for CCS, it would take the responsibility off of them having to promote regular events. I do disagree with the concept that this racing is put on for us to simply meet a need to race and not for any other reason. CCS is a business and is in this to make money (not that this is wrong) and I strongly believe they would not be interested in racing if it was non-for-profit. The suggestions I have been making are from this point of view and not as much from the racers point of view.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Xian_13 on January 22, 2003, 05:48:00 PM
"Super" Dave
 Do you teach self promotion in your school also? and if not why not?
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Bernie on January 22, 2003, 05:58:04 PM
QuoteHey, I know it's no Washington Post

Thank God!  One Washington Post is one too many! ;)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 22, 2003, 06:32:50 PM
QuoteThank God!  One Washington Post is one too many! ;)


Haha, yea that's actually what Bruce is trying to do with the paper.. not make it a typical boring, news, opinion, politics, same-'ol-shlt newspaper. There's enough of those. I think he's trying to go for the alternative, up-to-date, 'new style' sports, interesting newspaper.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: stickman on January 22, 2003, 07:24:40 PM
We do not live in a motorcycle friendly society. I doubt if we ever will, here in the US of A cars rule. Take a look at Europe. I would guess just as many people have rode motorcycles as drove cars. They are more accepting and knowledgable of motorcycles. Thus, they get 75,000 spectators at the track watching motorcycle races.

Second, motorcycle roadracing is not really a spectator friendly sport. The track is too big and the bikes are too small. It's difficult to follow the action. This is why I think motocross is more popular, much easier to watch in person. NASCAR is the execption, but those people are just idiots :)

And finally, why do you want our sport to be more popular anyway? Better sponsorships? Bigger purses? More money? Maybe. But if that ever happened, most of us wouldn't have the money to race anymore. It would become too complicated. The fun factor would be deminished, as often happens when money is involved. I enjoy the family-like atmosphere we currently have, I'm not sure that would remain if things changed.

One last thing. Gate fees suck. Especially for the racers, we're already paying enough to race. I've never paid a gate fee at a track day. And I'm sure a race weekend brings in more revenue than a track day.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 22, 2003, 08:35:06 PM
     The direction I was coming from with more involvement by more people was that it should help to lower costs, not increase them. I suppose that if greed jumped into play on behalf of CCS then it could go the other way. In theory the more people attending an event the more the profit margin goes up for CCS and in return SHOULD result in lower entry fees and more cash winnings for the racers (and still increase CCS's take - which is what any business wants - profit).
     On the other hand I suppose if we keep our racing hidden for the most part from the general public as we have in the past we can help to preserve the tightly knit racing community we all have come to enjoy so much. The concern I have with this is that we all bear the brunt of increases then, instead of spreading it out amongst a larger group of people, strength generally comes in numbers.
     I still don't know which would be better? Mabey the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" statement applies here. But then again I sure wish that I didn't have to pay that extra $500+ this year to race.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: schpreck on January 23, 2003, 12:17:13 AM
OK I've scanned in that flyer.. I'll start a new thread with it so everyone can find it easily.

Where is that thread?  I don't see it.  I want to talk to the printer to get prices.  I think I'm also going to make up some bumperstickers that say (something like) "support your local motorcycle roadracer" or something.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: schpreck on January 23, 2003, 12:22:40 AM
ok, found it.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 23, 2003, 03:01:35 AM
Quote"Super" Dave
 Do you teach self promotion in your school also? and if not why not?

During the school?  No.

It costs enough to pay for the time on the track, etc.  But I am happy to work with my students afterwards.  That's always what I've done.  I don't know everything, but since I've done this for so long, and I'm a sponsor with fuel to some people in various form of motorsports with Power Mist Racing Fuels, I get to see some good and better ideas.  
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: SfGentlemn on January 23, 2003, 04:06:56 AM
Hello All,

Just a quick observation if I may..

As far as CCS gates I cannot speak to, but AFM gates were and have always been 80% plus competitors and their direct friends and pit crews, families etc and 20% or less, outside fan base. Lets face it, it's grass roots racing and as exciting as we find it, most do not. I'm sure the Midget and Sprint guys feel the same way but I can tell you I never spent the 10 bucks to go watch the local Sprints run at the fairgrounds, yet I'll watch World of Outlaws on tv..go figure

For four years our team actively pursued corporate sponsorship.  We found that local sponsorship was relatively easy.  Dealerships (parts at cost) Paint and Body shops (Paint work and some small cash) Embroidery shops (Uniforms) and industry sponsors (bodies, brakes, clutches etc) were relatively easy to obtain merely by having multiple bikes w/ matching paint, matching uniforms and a fairly large pit , two 10x20 EZ-Ups and our Trailer. We knew we didnt have to win but merely present a polished and professional image and we self promoted our local sponsors heavily by placing the bikes in their shops on weekends we werent riding or wrenching etc, etc.  We even managed to get one local body shop approval to use their flatbed as the crash truck at Sears Point.

Despite this, corporations were still not interested. So we produced a five minute splash video, a website, more interest and we managed to secure small corporate deals and picked up Big 4 Rents (a West Coast Rental Company) and Primestar.  

Finally, when we entered into negotiation with Hewlett-Packard, we discovered a couple of interesting items.  We had been cold calling every high tech firm we could, with little success. At the time we were letting people jump up on the bikes, we swould shoot a digital picture of them on the bike and then email the pic to them from a laptop via wireless modem. We managed to talk to HP seriously only after an AMA round at Laguna Seca after the partner of HP's Director of Marketing - America One program stopped by our pits and got a picture.

After 4 months of negotation we stalled. Here are a couple of some surprising and some obvious reasons.  1. We priced ourselves too low at 1.2 million. Apparently HP America doesn't look at serious sports marketing programs untill they reach the 3-5 million plus stage. ie Nascar/Yachting.
2. There were no altruistic benefits, ie cancer research, or community enrichment etc, etc.
3. ProfessionalRoadracing in the consumer television popularity demographic ranks 41'st BEHIND womens golf?!?!
4.  Barcelona Spain and their High Speed Printer Division of HP was the only division that ended up being interested.  They wanted to use the picture concept but add their printers and models and print posters right there at the track of fans on bikes to demonstrate the printers. But they wanted everything based in Spain running an Euro series.
5. Finally and the point of this whole post, was the deal finally fell apart based on Nascar indirectly..  NASCAR as a format makes sense.  You will notice that FORD, CHEVY and DODGE do not field their own teams, unlike professional motorcycle roadracing in which we ALWAYS find ourselves competing on equipment which will never compare to a factory.  Historically Dale Quarterly is the only "privateer" in recent history that managed to place on the podium (second I believe) in the AMA championship, and even then he was getting Muzzy motors and a ton of Kawi factory support. For those who have ever been caught in the vortex of a Superbike leaving the same corner, you know what I mean.  Simply put, until the motorcycle factories support multiple teams and allow real competition and rider name branding similiar to NASCAR, no corporation will be willing to invest TV dollars in privateer teams who cannot run in the top 5 in AMA Superbike.

And until the day that happens, grass roots  motorcycle roadracing will always remain, grass roots.

Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 23, 2003, 05:04:41 AM
     Wow, has this ever gone to an extreme. I originally said "more spectators = more sponsors, more potential media coverage, and more potential future racers" when I started this thread. I was not suggesting that I wanted live TV coverage, full page newspaper coverage, or corporate sponsorship - that is not what this level of racing is all about. What I was suggesting was at a much more reasonable level. "More sponsors" was meant as more local sponsors, such as a local businessman who happened to see an ad of some type and came out to spectate and liked what he saw. "More potential media coverage" was meant as the local TV station coming out and getting some highlights for the 10 pm news or the local newspaper doing a write up on our races. It would be nice if the ROC could at least get some TV time on a major network but I realize that may not happen. And lastly "more potential future racers" which I think is obvious to everyone.
     I certainly do not expect to get more than what I just mentioned by increasing the spectator base, though I still believe the potential for lower fees and higher pay-outs should be a result. If not, it should at least help to keep the fees stable for longer and help reduce the dollar amount of future increases.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Jeff on January 23, 2003, 05:25:13 AM
Quote   In theory the more people attending an event the more the profit margin goes up for CCS and in return SHOULD result in lower entry fees and more cash winnings for the racers (and still increase CCS's take - which is what any business wants - profit).

But we all know that would *NEVER* happen.  If Kevin were to show the books to the clear channel entertainment folks and say "Hey Look, we profited $3M this year compared to $500k last year!  Let's cut entry fees in half for next year and I'm sure that people will race even more, and draw larger crowds which will keep us at $3M and be a win-win for everyone!" they'd slap him so hard he'd need a steering damper on his head.

We'd be picking up our McDonald's lunches from him outside BHF...

Face it, this "grass roots" club is owned by a corporate giant who doesn't give a F$CK about our whining.  They know we'll pi$$ and moan, but in the end we'll pay it.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 23, 2003, 06:32:50 AM
Quote    Wow, has this ever gone to an extreme. I originally said "more spectators = more sponsors, more potential media coverage, and more potential future racers" when I started this thread. I was not suggesting that I wanted live TV coverage, full page newspaper coverage, or corporate sponsorship - that is not what this level of racing is all about. What I was suggesting was at a much more reasonable level. "More sponsors" was meant as more local sponsors, such as a local businessman who happened to see an ad of some type and came out to spectate and liked what he saw. "More potential media coverage" was meant as the local TV station coming out and getting some highlights for the 10 pm news or the local newspaper doing a write up on our races. It would be nice if the ROC could at least get some TV time on a major network but I realize that may not happen. And lastly "more potential future racers" which I think is obvious to everyone.
     I certainly do not expect to get more than what I just mentioned by increasing the spectator base, though I still believe the potential for lower fees and higher pay-outs should be a result. If not, it should at least help to keep the fees stable for longer and help reduce the dollar amount of future increases.


Yes, exactly what I'm talking about... we're offering some free exposure to us 'grass roots' racers.
I talked to bruce last nite b4 he left for the Outer Banks.. We're gonna make a 'racer profiles' section similar to the FUSA's one, which will include a photo and a little bio about the racer. Also we will can post reports/stories that you send me, as well as any photos.

Hey, it's something, better than nothing... what site currently has info and stuff about the Club level racing?.. none that I can think of besides each our own sites.

Will this make more people aware of our races?... hopefully, that's the purpoose
Will this make more people come watch?... hopefully it'll spark the interest.
Will this make the gate fees lower?... nope, not the point here.
Will this give you a value ad to current and potential sponsors?... Hopefully, that's another point of this.

The CCS site is only 'good for' results and schedules, there's nothing about 'hometown heros' or businesses/sponsors that back the sport. That's where Bruce's newspaper is going to come in play.

Stay tuned

Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 23, 2003, 06:34:51 AM
And more...

Ok, first...

Europe is Europe.  Europe is hundreds and hundreds of years old.  The housing is very close together, and the countries...well, we've got states that are bigger.  So, as a result, things are closer.  Space is tight.  Motorcycles and scooters are an accepted mode of transportation as a result.  Even among grand parents, etc.  Oh, and the socialized economies have fuel costs that are outrageous compared to ours.

Here, well, things are a bit spaced out.  I live on a 1/3 acre lot.  I know people with more.  Erik Buell's house is down the road from me.  That's still eight miles or so.  My work is 15 miles.  The dealership I work with is thirty. My dad's house is 510 miles.  You get the picture.

Comparing the two markets is not relavent.  Just doesn't make sense.

NASCAR has a rich history that it has developed for years.  The playing field is strictly regulated so that FACTORY teams don't makes sense.  Teams receive support, but otherwise, they are viable businesses on their own.  

continued
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 23, 2003, 06:36:31 AM

In motorcycle racing, we have a small family community where the factories control the information.  There are special bikes that you and I can't get.  Information that we can't get.  How can someone compete?  The costs continue to escalate.  And the machines change year after year.

Sure, a Winston Cup car is kind of old tech, in a way, but the development receipe is there.  You build on that.  Makes for a really cool playing field.

Dale Quarterley...

I was introduced to Dale in 1990 when the company that I was doing work for  and was sponsored by, the Roscetti Corportation, began talks with him about riding the Bimota's that they were going to import.  In 1991, I was part of a B team that never really emergered.  I did create a relationship and friendship with Dale.

Dale's big program started probably in 1990 when a group of guys that had been helping him stepped up the support.  In 1992, he sold his RC30 and bought a used Superbike from Muzzy.  In 1993, "The Boy's" helped more.  One of "The Boy's" owned Mirage Studio's, the creator of the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", offered more support.  Dale was leasing the Muzzy Superbike's for about $50k a year with a clause where he could buy the bike for $25k at the end of the season.  I think Dale got ninth in the 200 that year (he fell down on the last lap in one?),  I was on the podium with him at Charlotte when he got third,  he probably would have won Loudon in the rain (but the bike got away from him), Jason Pridmore and I cried together watching him on top of the box at Mid-Ohio.  He did take second overall.

He did have support from Kawasaki, but, really, Dale just did his own work.  When we'd do a motor swap, he'd pick up the motor while standing over the frame (he was 6'3", 195#) while Ron Barrick, Daytona Mike, and I would toss the motor mounts on...

To another subject....

Don't push the cart up the hill with the rope...

More self promotion to spectators and the press will lead to more spectators, more press, more spectators, and potentially less cost to us.

Are we entertaining at the club level?  Ok, who's got autograph cards?  Shirts?  A website?  A recognizable team name?  Any team name?  Do you have huge stickers on your bike for sponsors that offer you a free windscreen and a product discount?  Personally, I've got VRS (Visionsports Riding Schools) about three feet long on my bike.  After all, my money is way more involved than everyone else's.

And how many bikes are really sold because of the stickers that you run on your race bike 150 miles away from the dealership?

Is CCS/FUSA/CCE getting rich on our racing?  I believe that their return for investment is about 8 to 10%.  No big money there.  The rotation of a road racer is about two and a half to three years.  Track riding programs are eroding at the racer base.  The racer demographic is getting older.  Where's the new blood?  And what can CCE do that hasn't been done over the twenty years or so that CCS has existed?  They actually paid to have FUSA on TV.  Went pretty well.  Where was the bigger investment by the teams?  

Does someone give a cr@p?  Yeah, Kevin Elliott was a racer, and, I believe, a racer deep inside yet.  How much can one person do?  Or two, or three, etc.

Ultimately, we are in charge of our own programs.  Hey, get some nice T-Shirts made for $10, sell them for $15.  You could get your own gate fee back and do some great advertising for yourself.  And isn't that who's important?  Charge your sponsor to be on the shirt?  Get a better deal from a sponsor.  

Sponsorships are about relationships.  They happen over long periods.  I've been with Vanson since 1991.  Power Mist since 1992.  Sometimes, I conceed somethings when times are rough.  Payback comes later.  Sometimes it doesn't.  

continued
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 23, 2003, 06:37:14 AM
Maybe we should state that CCS's responsibility is for our racing;  our outlet for doing what we do.  Competing.  Most of the other stuff is really our responsibility.  Building a business of our racing.  

If we can make ourselves marketable, then the press might be interested in what we do.  Then people might come and watch.  Then the press would be more interested.  Then outside sponsors.  Then maybe a local paper would print results.  

Rising costs and gate fees, etc. have been problems forever.  But really it goes back to the rider/"team".

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 23, 2003, 07:04:41 AM
     Well I guess that I was totally off base with my thoughts on this subject (when looking over the responses). I suppose that I am just not educated enough on the in's and out's of what makes a successful business. I hate to see things 'just getting by' instead of 'kickin butt' when they should be able to. I know for a fact that when the local speedway and dragstrip advertise/do a live broadcast on the local popular radio stations that they 'pack the house', and see a ripple affect for some time afterward. I gather by what has been said so far that sadly this would not be the case with us though. Oh well, I just thought I was on to something with the advertising thing.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Jeff on January 23, 2003, 07:08:21 AM
QuoteOk, who's got autograph cards?  Shirts?  A website?  A recognizable team name?  Any team name?  Do you have huge stickers on your bike for sponsors that offer you a free windscreen and a product discount?  

ME.....  I should have gone with the name 'man-wh0re racing'.  You scratch my back a little, and I'll pay you back 10 fold...

(can you believe they censored the word wh0re and replaced it with "sleeper"?!?!  what's up with that!)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 23, 2003, 07:34:23 AM
Super Dave... Amen brother.

Yes, to all.. I've got a Web site, hats, polos, team name, and my sponsor's about to buy me an enclosed trailer so I can paint his logo all over it like a moving billboard.

Self promotion is what it's about... and not just yourself, but promoting the races as well to potential sponsors and spectators alike.

Mike.. you're not off with the advertising thing. Make a flyer like the one I posted, pass it out to business, etc. Tell the radion/tv stations about the races, do it all man.. that's what we're saying... it will help with the exposure and bring more spectators.

I agree it's expensive and tough starting out, but ya gotta stay with it, don't give up.. as Dave said:  

"More self promotion to spectators and the press will lead to more spectators, more press, more spectators, and potentially less cost to us."

I believe, and have found out, that racing is what you make of it... To me, if you're not totally dedicated about it, then it'll be like a weekend hobby thing to you and you won't get much return.
If you are dedicated it'll be like a second life, you'll find ways to promote, get sponsors, get friends to come watch, come up with new excuses for your Friday sick days, and hopefully find the ways to reap the benefits of your time & dedication

It's also about relationships and building them. Not just popping by or asking someone for something as a 'quick fix'. Market yourself.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: SfGentlemn on January 23, 2003, 07:45:54 AM
Mike,

Actually you are not off base at all!  

We should be able to draw spectators.  It is exciting to watch. As all of those who have posted before here have shown, there are hundreds of ways to market your program no matter how big or small that may be! The more we emulate the AMA in our pit set-ups the more appealing it will be to the street guys who come to snag takeoffs, grab tuning tips and ogle fast bikes.  

Ultimately do I know from sitting through countless AFM financial meetings that the club organizers really dont want to raise fee's and even though it is always inevitable, the more people we put through the gate and on the track may make this escalation slower. I say keep up the good work!!

Chuckling here... Or you can employ the lazy route as preferred by myself and the rest of my worthless buddies; Save a ton of money on bodywork and paint by going so slow you never tip over. Trade your ezups for blue tarp tied to the fence, forget lawn chairs, thats what dead tires are for, save gas money by scamming lifts to the track in your buddies truck and never bring a tool you cant borrow from the guy in the fifth wheel pitted next to you, oh and uniforms?? You know that No Fear shirt/rag you've had since 94? ....exactly!!

Zig


Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: ecumike on January 23, 2003, 07:54:57 AM
LOL.. but how true
I had (still have) bottom of the line AGV leathers for 2 years
EX-UP.. nope, $25 'canopy' from Lowe's Foods store
never had a trailer: used my Honda Civic and rented an open 4x8 trailer from Uhaul for $10/day for 1.5 years
spares?.. what are those?
Air tank? I'm sure someone there'll have one.
$15 camping chairs from Sam's

Of course that all ended last Feb when I got the truck and luckily got some great sponsors. Now I've got it all. But point is, I did my 'time' ( I like to think) so by saving that $$ I can now afford the real-deal

Now, If only I could get a real 250! (TZ250)  :)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 23, 2003, 10:47:07 AM
     I am still planing on doing some of these things on my own but I was refering more to the larger stuff like live radio broadcasts and larger picture ads in the local newspaper. I plan on going to the local motorcycle shops and dropping off flyers and possible making up some little displays orientated toward their product line if possible (such as using a Buell or Harley in the photo at those shops). I don't think I will be purchasing any banners or business cards though. The concern I do have with this is the possible legal concerns with using CCS's name and the track's name. I realize you don't make any unrealistic promises in an advertisement but beyond that I don't know? That's why I thought if CCS was involved in at least guiding a volunteer with an advertising info packet it would be safer in the event of a problem. I thought it would be easier than having everyone concerned calling CCS and asking questions.
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 23, 2003, 11:06:11 AM
Screw CCS's logo! (Don't get me started...)

Put the dates, put some pictures on it, put the location.

If they think road racing is cool, they will come.  

Whether it's CCS or the ABSRO (American Belt Sander Racing Organization), who cares.  You're gonna race there, so I guess it's the place to be.

Now, I just need a place to teach people how to race belt sanders... ??? ???
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: EX#996 on January 23, 2003, 11:18:34 AM
QuoteNow, I just need a place to teach people how to race belt sanders... ??? ???

I have an ol' Black & Decker belt sander that can scoot across a table pretty good.  Just remind me to bring a longer extension cord.  The last time I almost got konk'd in the head by the plug as it flew out of the wall.   ;D

Dawn   :)

http://www.beltsander-races.com/
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: Super Dave on January 23, 2003, 12:39:37 PM
There will have to be rules....
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: the_weggie_man on January 23, 2003, 04:05:25 PM
Zig had it partly right, some organizations really don't want to raise fees but it is inevitable. Some org's will just cover expenses while others will look at it as a chance to make a bigger profit. Like taxes, once the fees are raised you'll never see them go down. I don't care how many people you put through the front gate.  AMA pros still pay gate fees don't they?  AMA should be paying them appearance money but ......no way Charlie.

As for promotion .... you can stick your hard earned money and time into promoting the race org. if you like but don't expect much return, if any.  Promote yourself, your team, your sponsors.  That may lead to bringing more people to the track with a specific goal of watching you compete.  Trying to promote the race org. is an up hill battle all the way. Been there, done that, LOL.  Not trying to be a downer on this thread but having been around this stuff for 20 years as racer, free lance correspondent/photographer, promoter, race director and a huge fan it's as I said in my first reply, you're beating a dead horse that's been dead a long, long time.  :(

So anyway, have a great day  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: EX#996 on January 23, 2003, 04:18:24 PM
QuoteThere will have to be rules....

Divisions determined by the amps of the motor.....
Stock division would have stock drive rollers...
Superstock, modify at will...
Corded and Cordless divisions as well (do they make a cordless belt sander?)

Dawn   :)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on January 23, 2003, 04:23:05 PM
     Belt sander racing, hmmmm sounds interesting. I think I already have a team name for it - Got Wood? Racing. lol
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: the_weggie_man on January 23, 2003, 05:16:41 PM
Bar stool racing .... gotta be bar stool racing, unless I can build a 4 stroke belt sander. ::)
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: T595 on January 23, 2003, 06:39:10 PM
first of all I must applaud each of you for some very insightful thoughts.  I am obviously not a rocket scientist but have a bit of experience in the business end of things. I believe your on the right track, and able to do it cheaper than nassscar did it in the 50's. With the use of the internet and instant communication CCS privateers could organize, sending a flyer prior to each event and followed it up at each following event etc.... the ball would start rolling. Sponsorships will come, as stated, from relationship's and it won't be $10,000 from one but $500 from 20, it is hardwork and what is paved today will be fruitful for racers in the future. The common privateer will not see an income worth the risk's, that's why it is done for the love of the sport..... entertain thread though, by the way i'm looking for a few more sponsors are any of you willing... please send cash.....
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: DRU2 on January 23, 2003, 08:23:26 PM
You kNow as I read alot of these  letters i get to thinking how we could do this and really not have to put alot of effort into i.Now bare with me! Theres a movie coming out and we all know what it is! and we all now that the sport riding industreis going to take the fall!(we the bad guys) BUT,if we could get some on with more nollage them myself to go and talk to the news stations when all of the negative thoughts come out,and show them that there is a place and there are responsible people with a place to go fast and be competive .Maybe we can use this bandwagon of sorts to help us get some coverag and show the country that there is a time and place for all this! wether it be stunt shows at lunch or more people coming to see us or more racers into the sport.I was always told uyou just have to wait for the time and place you just cant miss it. are we going to miss ours? All I'm saying is if there's going to be negative thought articals lets be the one to say NO! thats not what sport riding is all about and that is not the sport that we all came to love!!!!!


         Thats just my humble thought take it how you may! but if someone going to say something bed and get all kinds of air tim about it and exposer then why can't we use this negativity to our advantage!!!!          

 JUST A HUMBLE RIDERS THOUGHTS!  
                                   JOE
Title: Re: Concerned about our future
Post by: DRU2 on January 23, 2003, 08:27:16 PM
Another thing i just thought of . I dont mean the motorcycle mags and the racing mags. the people that we have to get ahold of dont read those!