CCS / ASRA Racing Forum

All the other stuff => Wrenching => Topic started by: EX_#76 on July 21, 2006, 03:49:15 pm

Title: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on July 21, 2006, 03:49:15 pm
Does anyone know if you can install a second generation crankshaft in a first generation engine?
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on July 21, 2006, 07:15:49 pm
WHY? :wtf: Do you have a first generation crank you want to sell? Or how about a second generation one? Just curious ::)
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: dylanfan53 on July 21, 2006, 10:23:11 pm
I'm getting you a definitive answer.  Stay tuned...
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on July 21, 2006, 10:30:12 pm
I a
WHY? :wtf: Do you have a first generation crank you want to sell? Or how about a second generation one? Just curious ::)
I'm trying to put a superbike together for next year.  I have a damaged first gen crank and need something for the new motor.

Guy
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on July 25, 2006, 05:36:51 pm
Hey Guy-

From what I understand, the first generation crank is better. Better, meaning that there aren't as many issues as with the second generation cranks. I've heard of some builders who have used first gen. cranks in the FI motors but had to have some minor machine work done to facilitate using a shim for thrust clearance.

If you know anyone with an SV crank for sale email me.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on July 26, 2006, 09:25:25 am
Hey Guy-

From what I understand, the first generation crank is better. Better, meaning that there aren't as many issues as with the second generation cranks. I've heard of some builders who have used first gen. cranks in the FI motors but had to have some minor machine work done to facilitate using a shim for thrust clearance.

Ya that is what I have heard too.  I am not so sure that the 2nd gen crank is any worse in terms of strength.  I think the real differnece is that the shim kit is not used on the second gen cranks.  I think a loose end clearance coupled with the higher rev limit on the second gen models is the primary couse of crank failures in those models.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on July 26, 2006, 05:10:49 pm
+1 :cheers:
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 02, 2006, 04:47:10 pm
Buy a billet Falicon crank.

Seriously before you put that all together make sure and send the pistons, rods and crank out and get it all balanced, you'll get a lot more life out of the motor.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 02, 2006, 05:02:27 pm
A brand spankin new crank is 500 bucks. You can justify that with comparing to a set of tires. 200 bucks more than tires. Or you can justify that with a price of a new helmet, a new helmet can cost more than a crank. Skip a weekend of racing and buy a new crank if you need one.

Part Number:  12000-20840 
Description:  CRANKSHAFT SET 
Source:  SUZUKI 
Price:  $498.11 
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on August 03, 2006, 02:27:22 pm
A brand spankin new crank is 500 bucks. You can justify that with comparing to a set of tires. 200 bucks more than tires. Or you can justify that with a price of a new helmet, a new helmet can cost more than a crank. Skip a weekend of racing and buy a new crank if you need one.

Part Number:  12000-20840 
Description:  CRANKSHAFT SET 
Source:  SUZUKI 
Price:  $498.11 



Thanks for the info.  Matt Mcnoll told me about some internet based company where you could buy cranks for a similar price.  I lost the paper that I wrote the sight's name on. 

Matt,  Can you post the name of that sight for all to see.

Guy

 
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on August 03, 2006, 03:37:50 pm
FALICON  :ass:!!! Tried to order cranks (2) from them. Lot's of BLAH BLAH  :jerkoff: about the lead time involved. 6-8 weeks, OK, that will work. 6-8 weeks later; where's my cranks?
"Well, we don't do our own heat treating, the people who did the treating, warped both cranks" "we have to start over and machine new ones" :jerkoff: This is all said a week before week 8. This means 6-8 more weeks? :finger:

I don't think they are the only game in town, we'll see.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 03, 2006, 03:53:51 pm
FALICON  :ass:!!! Tried to order cranks (2) from them. Lot's of BLAH BLAH  :jerkoff: about the lead time involved. 6-8 weeks, OK, that will work. 6-8 weeks later; where's my cranks?
"Well, we don't do our own heat treating, the people who did the treating, warped both cranks" "we have to start over and machine new ones" :jerkoff: This is all said a week before week 8. This means 6-8 more weeks? :finger:

I don't think they are the only game in town, we'll see.

No Kidding?!?!?!

We need a tool and die maker with some extra time on his hands to start making good strong SV cranks. The things are hard to come by.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on August 03, 2006, 04:52:18 pm
Yup! We do! :cheers:
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: Protein Filled on August 03, 2006, 05:55:00 pm
He was probably talking about www.RonAyers.com. They have them for $498.00


Thanks for the info.  Matt Mcnoll told me about some internet based company where you could buy cranks for a similar price.  I lost the paper that I wrote the sight's name on. 

Matt,  Can you post the name of that sight for all to see.

Guy

 
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on August 03, 2006, 06:37:45 pm
Numbskulz.....  You are a god damn genious!!!
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 03, 2006, 10:51:00 pm
We need a tool and die maker with some extra time on his hands to start making good strong SV cranks. The things are hard to come by.

Just because I'm a Tool & Die Maker doesn't mean I have the equipment to machine cranks.  :biggrin:  LOL

Anyways, cranks are ground after Heat Treat, if the heat treater warped them they are idiots (which I find hard to believe if this is the heat treater that does this type of work for them on a regular basis) or the material had flaws/stress/bad grain structure, or the hack that machined them before Heat Treat cut the areas to be ground too close to the finish size by accident or was trying to cheat and save time by leaving minimal material to grind after Heat treat. Leaving minimal grinding stock is a real gamble, especially on something so irregularly shaped as a crankshaft. Do any of you know if they use forged blanks for their cranks or do they machine them from a solid piece? If from a solid piece they should be normalizing and/or stress relieving the blank once it has been machined down to relatively close to it's finished size/shape from the original solid piece of steel, this allows the blank to relax the built up stresses from the grain being interupted when they machined out all the material.

Blaming the Heat Treater is a common cop-out that is often times not true, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. My money would be on the crank manufacturer getting burned by cutting the blank too close to the finished dimensions before heat treat and then it changed more then they anticipated during the heat treat process.  8)
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: ekraft84 on August 04, 2006, 07:56:00 am
I just skimmed the thread here, but I would not use a 2nd generation crank for anything.  The first gen cranks are different and more reliable.  Something about Suzuki using a harder metal coating on it from what I've been told.

I would think you could find a salvage yard or somewhere to get one cheap ..
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: catman on August 04, 2006, 08:00:10 am
Lovin my  2   "00" SV's more everyday!john
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on August 08, 2006, 12:09:02 am
Hey Mike:

Thanks for the info on metallurgy. After reading your post, my bet is with you on the "finish tolerances".
Still looking for a crank or two..... :ahhh:
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 08, 2006, 10:06:10 am
Isn't there a little Japanese Suzuki Engineer here that can answer all of Mikes questions?? :err:
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: matt49g on August 08, 2006, 09:42:16 pm
Hey Guy,
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: matt49g on August 08, 2006, 09:49:24 pm
Dang! I hate electronic communication, anyway I just got around to reading this thread, the place I got my crank is Ron Ayers Motorsports.  It was $512. or something close to that with the shipping.  It took about ten days to get it and it came with the entire range of shims to adjust endplay.  I honestly think it beats the daylights out of gambling $2-300 on a used one of uncertain quality.
Matt
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 09, 2006, 11:04:29 am
Dang! I hate electronic communication, anyway I just got around to reading this thread, the place I got my crank is Ron Ayers Motorsports.  It was $512. or something close to that with the shipping.  It took about ten days to get it and it came with the entire range of shims to adjust endplay.  I honestly think it beats the daylights out of gambling $2-300 on a used one of uncertain quality.
Matt

Agreed.

But, do you have a used one you want to get ride of? I've spun rod bearings on 2 cranks and was able to salvage both. We used the next smaller babbet bearing. The cranks were not scored badly at all. Clean them up and put the motor back together.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on August 09, 2006, 11:25:47 am
Agreed.

But, do you have a used one you want to get ride of? I've spun rod bearings on 2 cranks and was able to salvage both. We used the next smaller babbet bearing. The cranks were not scored badly at all. Clean them up and put the motor back together.

Did you have the cranks that you salvaged reground?  How far undersized was the damaged journal?
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 09, 2006, 02:34:05 pm
Just used a little bit of some fine grit sand paper to get the little bit off. I'm on the smallest bearing available rite now. Suzuki only sells 3 sizes of babbet bearings for the crank.

If you did have to machine it down if the crank was scored badly it would be risky business. scat! All this is risky business, but what sucks is I'm on the smallest bearings.

If you do go down past what the smallest bearing will fit on I'm wondering if there's a company out there that can make or fit that same kind of babbet in a smaller size.

I have replaced babbet bearings in 2 motors without opening up the bottom end, theres enough room (if you're careful) to remove the rods and replace the bearings with just the cyclinders off.

Another question I have. Usually one side spins, usually the front rod. I wonder if its Ok to use 2 different size babbets for front and rear.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: L8brake731 on August 09, 2006, 02:45:40 pm
Hey Matt!! Your'e the MAN :cheers:
Called Ron Ayers, they have the 02' cranks in stock and all the associated parts (bearings, shims etc.)

Thanks for the information, now I can sleep..... :sleeping2:
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: Addicted2Danger on August 09, 2006, 02:55:00 pm
Nick,
   I think the main hold up to something like that would be the fact that the big end of both rods ride on the same journal.  In many "Autozone Rebuilt" engines you will find similar stuff.  Maybe .010 undersize on 1 rod journal, another 1 standard, and then another maybe .020 undersize.  If it were mine- I'd turn it down to a uniform size.
Besides, how do you gaurantee that journal is round after you have worked it w/ sandpaper or emery cloth?  I've seen that done on $1000 dollar used cars, and they ran for a while after it was done.  All I know is the ride you could take from that rod seizing to the crank doesnt sound like it would make for a good race weekend.  I'll bet somebody makes undersize rod bearings, or could make them.  It may not be any cheaper than a new crank at some point, but they cant be that hard to make.
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: grasshopper on August 09, 2006, 03:06:46 pm
I must have gotten lucky on the race bike then. She's holding strong, almost 3 seasons on that bearing replacement. Knock on wood!!!!

I'll be hunting down guy like a hawk in Amatuer lightweight and spank his ass come Autobahn or Blackhawk!  :spank:
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: Protein Filled on August 09, 2006, 04:30:11 pm
The SV rod bearing journals are wide enough that an automobile crank repair facility is able to grind them down and re-harden them. I have had them do that before at a cost of about $40.00 per crank. It works as long as you are whithin the clearanced range of the tighter bearings.

Now that I have said this, I am not sure if that is the best solution for a race motor on a machine that is known to be hard on cranks...
Title: Re: SV Cranks
Post by: EX_#76 on August 09, 2006, 05:36:12 pm
I must have gotten lucky on the race bike then. She's holding strong, almost 3 seasons on that bearing replacement. Knock on wood!!!!



You did get very lucky on the crank resize with sand paper.  I can only assume that you were lucky enough to just transfer a little of the bearing material to the crank without damaging the crank journal.

If someone out there has access to, or knowlage of brearings that are .010 or .020 under to fit an SV rod, I sure would like to know some part numbers.  I would bet that you could easily run a moderate HP superbike .010 undersized crank.  There are tons of grindable SV crank cores out there.

I'll be hunting down guy like a hawk in Amatuer lightweight and spank his ass come Autobahn or Blackhawk!  :spank:

I love it when you talk dirty to me....   Big Boy