Visionsports Riding Schools has traditionally operated on the Thursday prior to CCS racing at Blackhawk Farms Raceway for four years, offering the opportunity for new riders, current racers, and sport riders to work on their skills.
I scheduled my dates with Blackhawk recently and had good reason to believe that my dates were solid. I have a message that I receive from Blackhawk Farms that CCS has now asked for their "Sport Rider Day" to be on Thursday prior to CCS racing.
Information was relayed to me from one of the tire vendors in late August that CCS thought that Thursday would help build their poor attendance of their "Sport Rider Day."
Hmmm....
Uh, maybe we have a nice program, Bill and Kevin. Thanks for your input.
So, operate your school on Friday and then Thursdays won't be attended hardly at all! ;D And that's one less day I have to take off work! ;D
Can't do that.
Blackhawk Farms operates its practice on Friday. Needless to say, I'm pretty unimpressed with CCS right now. BFR at this point too.
You do things with a reason to believe that people will do as they say...
For those of you that have attended on of my schools, and usually return for more help, it might be in our interest to tell CCS to back off our opportunity to get better.
Especially since CCS has cut our practice time down in the interest in getting out earlier.
Boy Dave...
That sucks the big one..... :-[
Bill asked me to attend one of his sport rider days, but I didn't. It is not because it was on a Monday, it was because it didn't interest me and it wouldn't interest Paul either.
Paul will be attending your school because you will be able to teach him and help him increase his skills on the race track. That is what he is looking for.
If all else fails, perhaps have your school on Monday. We will stay the extra day.
Dawn
Monday's are bad for me for two reasons.
One, we set up riders for the race weekend. Two, it's just a bad day for me.
I have had plenty of feedback that was similar to what you said about their track day. And that's what it is, a track day. You can do NESBA or Midwest Rider and get that. What's CCS going to offer that's different than that?
I'm pretty angry right now, for many reasons. I really take a lot of time to defend CCS. However, I don't have anything to defend for them here. I find it a bit concerning. Additionally, for Blackhawk to give me the dates, then notify me afterwards.
But, regardless, I know that Bill F was trying to arrange this for 2003. We could call it a business decision. But if it affects the riders that I help, which is a good number... Then I find it more troubling.
The Sport Rider Day is meant for non racers, primarily. Some racers, I'm sure. But that's why Blackhawk has it's practice day.
So what is the plan of action to stop this silly sportrider crap. You would think ccs would want us(the racers) to sharpen our skills so our racing would be cleaner and less crashes which makes watching and running a race event faster and more fun? CCS must be drinking the funny water the AMA Pro racing staff is drinking. ???
I'll let you say it. Tell CCS.
I have like $5. CCE has quite a bit more. So, the big guys win? I tried to contact Kevin Elliott on several occasions about doing something together, but I received no response.
I originally started teaching with CCS in 1993 under Roder Edmonson. So, I have always tried to work with the organization.
In 1999, I formed my own independant school so that I could have more time and opportunity to try to help riders. At the end of 2000, Learning Curves negotiated a program that bumped me out of the CCS school programs that I was working in. I was not given any opportunity to offer a program, etc. Since that time, I have only done my schools at my program dates, and for those that wish for independant work on their dates.
Here's a suggestion... Have Sport Rider Days on Wednesday - it's a lot more valuable from a racer's perspective than the "Monday after".
Well then everyone who has taken a VRS day needs to email Kevin Elliott and let him know he is acting like a damn fool. This is club racing and us slow guys need thursday for the "get fast school" aka VRS.I think there are enough people who respect Super Dave to make an arguement so as not to take Super Daves school dates away. And I will send Kevin the first one. If you help out do not act like an A** hole be cool and let him know why you want to help keep VRS schools at blackhawk on Thursday.
Hey Dave,
They have a habit of screwing people that are dedicated to them. I am living proof. It seems the more your dedicated the more they screw you. But it will all work out in the end. Hope it does for you too. Miss seeing you at the races. But you know I never got to come up there. I guess i didn't kiss enough ass. Hope to hear from you soon.
Take care,
Stacey
Admittedly, I'm a bit angry. I don't admit to knowing thw whole story. But I've been doing these days for a good while. So, I have that to stand on. If I have my school on Wednesdays, now riders will have to take off a day that they wouldn't need to.
I will call BFR tomorrow. I'm sure the answer I will get will be that CCS scheduled it this way before I did, even though I've been putting on VRS dates on Thursdays for quite some time.
Hey, Stacy...
What's new? Didn't see your post. You just lurking around on the board? LOL!
Uh, racing never changes? I think we can come up with too many examples.
Good to hear from you Stacy. What are you doing for real?
Still living in Texas and working back in the medical field. But have some leads on some other jobs. It pays the bills for right now. Making a move to another city outside of Fort Worth. Closer to work. I am always lurking on here seeing what is happening. I guess things without haven't gotten much better. Oh well. But I am going back to work with WERA here in Texas. I don't think i'll ever get away from roadracing completely. But I am staying busy working MX races here. To me, bikes are bikes and races are races. So I am keeping up with my scoring abilities. And I don't mean with the riders..........lol.......
LOL, scoring abilities!
Yeah, it does get in your blood. When you've been around it long enough, it's funny how much cross over there is.
MX is alot easier. I do it with my eyes clothes.......lol.........If they could only keep the bikes clean. 25 bikes compared to 80 is a peice of cake. So it is keeping my skills up for WERA next year. Come down and do a race with them at Hallet sometime. I'd love to see you. It was great when they raced TWS this year. Got to see a bunch of guys from the MW and MA Regions. It was good to know that I may be gone but never forgotten.
Hey Dave I would say that CCS can take Wed. and u have thurs. or else take the School to a different track. Or even maybe CRA. I know some people that would leave. Just my thought.
I am always interested in other opportunities.
Tom Mason has tried, along with Glen Christiansen, to get us to work something in at Brainerd. The board is a bit "tight" up there, so we have never gotten anything done.
The distance for me an my staff to cover would be big too. I would look at other tracks where I can properly staff a school first. But I am alway open to doing something at Brainerd.
We've been doing work with Blackhawk Farms for a good while. It is a good fit. I want to continue that relationship. I am just disappointed in the players in this mess.
Road America I am slow at that track too!! Lets go there SD.
$12 grand a day. And what do you really learn there? Would be fun, but doesn't really serve the purpose....
Gingerman maybe?
that sucks >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Every one should e-mail kevin
and ask that the CCS not to take thursday
I just did
GOOD LUCK SUPER DAVE
Hey Super,
hmm....I see the challenge, however unfortunate this is, the VRS program, which I participated in last year and was looking forward to this upcoming year, is scheduled on primetime track access and CCS controls the Weekend schedule, track and expansion. they're the 'heavy-hitter'.
BUT there is an opportunity for compromise, isnt there?
Perhaps, you could run the VRS program concurrent to this CCS "Sport Rider (track) Day?" I am a bit ignorant to the desired objective or outlay fo the CCS program, but if their objective for the SR Day is fill the grid- simply scheduling thurs. prior to a raceday will certainly do that- not with street riders, but racers I predict, at least 80/20.
If there isnt conflict, simply having additional riders on the track, albeit non-racers, during the VRS program may be considered a hinderance at first, but later might be good for all- including future Super Dave'rs who might be sold on the program....From CCS' perspective, they should be happy with the success, marketing value and possible future CCS riders.... You guys have such a co-dependancy, really it seems this should or could work out for both CCS/VRS.
No matter what, Thurs. is critical for the racers, participants to VRS and we should voice our concern to CCS/ Kevin straightaway. However, in doing so, I felt we should also postulate a compromise, or happy medium.Dave, what could be presented as an alternative solution, IF simply maintaining the existing schedule-VRS on Thurs. SR Day on Mon., is not an option?
Surely, as a collective group, we can tell CCS we are mad, but it is better if we tell em what we want or better NEED!
If CCS is simply looking for 'success:assuming measured by # of participants', and you simply ask that your program is scheduled on Thurs.the day prior to the BHF sanctioned practice for racers of CCS events, why can there not be compromise where there is no perceived conflict?
Your compromise; shared track_space, time
CCS compromise; the same
BOTH benefit each other, e.g. costs could be reduced, among other benefits.
Yes, its true, there are perceived drawbacks to this proposal as well-
a crowded track and all levels of riders, including non-racers participating while racers, possibly VRS students, prepare for an event.
Certainly these changes are a drag, but we must realize there isnt much we can do about it. However,it seems proper organization could resolve most of the 'undesired, ill' effects- a combined event would present. Although it is not what VRS (WE!) had in the past, clearly from what CCS has already presented, things change.
If CCS is willing, or able to work with you/VRS, allowing for your program to be run in parallel, concurrent- same days, same track (possibly sessions allocated or something) could you or would you consider?
I mean WHO CARES who we pay our track fee to, right? We could easily identify the VRS / Super fees separately as your standard registration, minus the fee paid to CCS for the track, medical, insurance. They are clearly not in competition with your program and VRS does not make any profit from the track rental itself ( sometimes I presume it could be a liability, low # of students in classes)
Sorry for the rant Super;(everyone)
I only hope something can be done so we truly do not lose the VRS program, practice AND track time @ BHF prior to future CCS events held at the track - hey some of us need more practice than others! Certainly there is still enough time to come up with an amicable solution, I know I marked my calendar for VRS dates, I hope they stick, I need the practice ;-)
michael casey
#447
You have some valid questions and thoughts.
I have sent a few e-mails about doing some kind of cooperation with CCS in some kind of format, but those e-mails have gone ignored, while others I have sent to CCS have been responded to.
CCS is obligated to Learning Curves; they made those decisions in CCS's interests a couple of years ago.
As for running with the "Sport Rider Day", I don't see it as a benefit. Because Visionsports was able to control what happened on our day, we could make the format work to our advantage. If I need to go out and help some one NOW, I can do it. We have the complete ability to control how and what we do. I can have a "start" practice, what ever.
If we limit it to racers, then my non racing riders suffer. I do quite a bit of work in the vintage field too. Often times, I am the only one that can help anyone that wants to get involved in vintage racing, because I have an understanding about those bikes from my experiences. So, all those riders might just go away.
I guess I do feel singled out a bit as Blackhawk Farms already offers practice on Friday. The Sport Rider Day seems pretty redundant to me.
Well, since CCS seems pretty committed to Gateway, have you tried there?
In addition or before calling the track, you may want to contact Contact Neville McNaughton from midwestrider.com, at (314) 664-4397, he's been running the Friday Midwestrider.com track days and knows the folks at Gateway pretty well.
WERA....WERA....WERA.....
Don't bother e-mail Kevin from CCS it is useless to get anything done with them (CCS). CCS seems like they have one thing on there mind which is how much money they can make and how fast they can make it. That was a very good example on the practice sessions Dave. I cannot see how they think 9 minute practice sessions help anyone. I have only raced a handful of years but I can see what is happening here with CCS. Grabbing there money and forgeting about who really makes up CCS racing.......the racers. Why do you think they grid by who gets there money in first, two reasons money talks and they are to lazy to do grids by points, hell they can even get there own website up to date in a timely fashion. Sorry for my rant but everyday the WERA schedule looks better and better for the NC.
In my e-mail to Kevin Elliott, I suggested that CCS consider having their Sport Rider Day on Wednesday. This would enable CCS to attract new people to come out and have their track day, go home and tell their friends how much fun they had and how totally awesome CCS racers are, then come back Saturday for the licensing school. (or even better - come back the following day for more "intensive" instruction with SD?)
If properly promoted, it could be a win-win for everyone. That said, my question to the racers here is:
How many of you would be able to start the "race weekend" on Wednesday morning?
Oh and by the way good luck Dave you are a stand up guy and hopefully everything works out for you.
Gateway would be nice. But again, the distance to provide a large staff like I do at Gateway is very hard. I've literally raised my instructors. They understand the program and what we're trying to do. Our envoirnment can be almost crazy with what we're trying to get done.
Neville and I have talked, and I am interested in doing something there, but it would not be like the program that I offer at Blackhawk.
WERA would be fine too. I really just working with riders. With my age and all, I am not looking for a factory ride, etc. Although, when the opportunities show up for me to ride for someone, I don't turn them down.
What I did learn early on was that no one prepared me for what I needed to do or what I REALLY NEEDED TO DO or HOW THINGS SHOULD BE. When I worked with Dale Quarterley (he was a "good" AMA racer for those of you who don't know who he is...), he would just tell me, " Don't do that, because..." My learning process was formed from that. And for a guy that has no depth perception, I did, and do, pretty well, in my estimation.
Often times, that's what it is all about,; just telling someone what they need to do, and what they're wasting time on.
Additionally, for some reason, I can look at something someone is doing and make interpretations about the riding, and the bike. Often times, the bike is giving the rider feed back that is slowing them down. Changing the bike can help DRAMATICALLY in this area.
What's next?
Hey Dave this in no way is against you, it is unfortunate that this happened to you. However I get sick of people stating that CCS only cares about money, did I miss something in their book that said they were non profit. Clear channel is not in business for racers, they are in business for themselves as is EVERY OTHER for profit business, so give this thing a break. Every business is involved in ways to increase profits while reducing cost, if CCS was just here to do what the racers wanted guess what, they'd be done in less than a year. Do all you guys with sponsors think they do it because you are a nice guy? Now they do it in hopes of getting recognition so they get a return on their investment in you, and guess what if they do not got the return they say goodbye, take Red Bull for example. Does anyone here go to work because they want to make the world a better place? Of course not you go to make money. Does CCS have issues of course, if they didn't well then all the other club racing orgs would be gone. You guys need to get your heads out of the clouds and understand how business works, when you make a complaint to CCS why not try putting in a recomendation regarding, like Dave seems to have done, how to fix the problem and show them how it will increase their profit. Let me tell you if I were to get an e-mail from someone that starts out and finsishes "You guys suck for dropping track X off the schedule you should really put it back on" it would go in the trash. Now if you state why it should be on the schedule and how it benefits said org then you might get somewhere. Again Dave it is unfortunate that this happened to you and hopefully you will find a way to continue to provide what seems to be from the responses a beneficial service. Also aren't those track days done by Lockhart Phillips? I did one on a Friday and was very happy with it, at Summit.
Let the flamming of me begin.... :P
Nice Pete, could you stick your nose up there any further?
Dave, I hope you get this worked out. I can't overemphasize how much you helped me last year and it would be a tragedy to lose you and your school!
Hey Pete obviously you don't race the Midwest region. CCS is starting to get as bad as the AMA roadracing series. Hey I don't mind getting f*cked in the as@ but give me a kiss when your done at least. Wake up and smell the coffee Pete.
Hey Slider that was not stated for nose in there reasons. It is just in general that I get sick of hearing about a business actually being able to make money for themselves. When dealing with a company as large as Clear Channel I do not think my little post helps me out one little bit. What I was trying to get across was the fact that if you take a sensible path you at least will get heard. We all bitch but do nothing about resolving it. Hey if you guys are really interested in getting your point across why don;t you get together and get a rep for your region to act as the person that tries to resovle issues. Or does that make to much sense? AMA riders do it and if there was just 1 rep from your region they would probably get a lot farther than everyone complaining individually.
FYI just trying to help and your respones do prove the point, deal with the issues in a business way. You are dealing with a business, not an individual. And no I donot race the midwest though I wish I could get out to some of those tracks.
Pete-
I think you have some excellent points when you talk about using constructive criticism, not badmouthing, etc. I also like the Regional Rep idea, sort of...
However, please let me try to convey my opinion, which is what I think most people are thinking. Most of us understand that CCS is in business to make money. We are OK with that. I think what we are trying to say is that:
1) CCS is not always well managed company. Unfortunately, we can all cite examples of this. They need to improve.
2) We are not treated like their customers, which we are. Various examples of lack of attention and service could be cited here. While beig in business and making money, they should try to attract new customer (track days) while also pleasing existing cutomers. (not happening by ditching VRS) As you said, we need to point out their lack of focus on us when focusing on new guys.
3) We, the customer, are sort of stuck. We should be able to vote with our pocketbooks and go somewhere else. Unfortunately, we are stuck with a 'regional monopoly' because other organizations are too far away. So, CCS must get Really, Really bad before we leave, and right now it is just Really bad.
I could go on, but I will just stop for right now.
I never said there were not issues, as a matter of fact I agreed. Hell I've got issues with my own little business, I just know I take care of the guy that is sensible not the screaming lunatic. ;D
I agree with that 100%
QuoteI never said there were not issues, as a matter of fact I agreed. Hell I've got issues with my own little business, I just know I take care of the guy that is sensible not the screaming lunatic. ;D
That's fine Pete. But if you had a problem with a business, say for example a Penske group buy, we wouldn't tell you,
Quote...so give this thing a break.
Kapisch?
;D Good god man are you an elephant? Hey who had an issue with Penske? There was another issue and you saw how poorly both sides, one being me, handled it and it cost both parties involved. Instead of it being dealt with in a rational manner it got down right ugly and made those involved look like idiots to their customers and potential customers. Thank you for giving a perfect example of why you should do things in a business like manner.
Yeah, I thought you'd get my point. ;D
Sorry about that....
For your post as an example, I wish someone had told the parties involved to give it a break.
Hey Dave....
Worst case senerio.....
Have your class on Wednesday - we'll sit around on Thursday and just have a good time - Friday we will practice what you taught - Saturday and Sunday we will put it to good use.
Dawn :)
P.S. Fortunately the towns are close by for any beer runs that may be necessary ;)
QuoteThat's fine Pete. But if you had a problem with a business, say for example a Penske group buy, we wouldn't tell you,
Kapisch?
GOOD job, "Slider" ???
QuoteGOOD job, "Slider" ???
Ike:
You are still around!!!
Were you on vacation or just 'lurking' on the BBS. We were worried about you.
Dawn ;)
sportbikepete says:
QuoteHowever I get sick of people stating that CCS only cares about money, did I miss something in their book that said they were non profit. Clear channel is not in business for racers, they are in business for themselves as is EVERY OTHER for profit business,
and then says:
QuoteDave it is unfortunate that this happened to you and hopefully you will find a way to continue to provide what seems to be from the responses a beneficial service.
Dave is business as well, and his business beneifts racers. Thus it benefits CCS. CCS and Dave can BOTH profit from a mutual schedule resolution.
soapbox anyone?
Quotesoapbox anyone?
Thanks for the offer.... but I took my turn earlier. ;)
Funny though. No responses from CCS ???
Dawn :)
OK, I'll give this my little opinion here. CCS is a much bigger company than VRS. Blackhawk Farms has a rate schedule based on how big of a company you are. Individuals are on the bottom, small companies like dealers and such are next, schools probably are next, racing organizations come in around here, manufacturers come in pretty high up. CCS being with Clear Channel most likely pay top dollar.
I would say BFR is making a lot more money from renting the track to CCS than VRS. It's the same old story, just like the whole Moto GP thing here in the states. MONEY!!
I do think they should have given VRS an option since they already had the dates, although it sounds like there wasn't a contract signed yet for 2003.
The move by both CCS and BFR sucks just by them not talking with Dave. It was a stab in the back from my understanding. They gave away his dates without ever consulting with him. That's bullsh-t.
>:(
DANG !!! ccs, bhf (and pete)
Dave, I'm with you, WAS and still AM looking forward to some ADVANCED skills training with you!
I told you that when i was able to afford it, i'd be there.
Thing is, for me, 'affording it' weighed heavily on being able to get away from "life" that EXTRA day.
so now ccs helps bhf break a contract (pete) with VRS (after going over and over it all summer)???, pIsSeS me off to hear any type of squeeze! (tho business is business) the racers suffer, along with Super_Dave. but (guarantee) bhf gets more money, and ccs gets an estimated..... (yeah theyve got it worked out, they've been getting inquires, trust it)
pete, you should take care of all your customers the same (no matter if the one was more offended, and yelled louder (it must've meant more, or they may need expression classes, whatever.)
anyway,
im another who scratched thursday out for VRS,
for MY personal convienence...... but....that profit word......
and my suggestion is........ drum roll.....
1, keep VRS thursday
2, give sr to wednesday
reasons.....
sr days are for mostly newbies to the track. they should not inconvienence us, we've been paying and its better for us to have the track days in succession to optimize our training, rather than trying to get to the track on a wednesday and have a layover day on thursday. were trying to get it rite on the track, like NOW!, we are not wanting to be faced with (possibly) driving in wednesday, out wednesday evening, back for friday practice or saturday races.
unless Super_Dave could operate friday
otherwise, pete, im sorry but it just SUCKS!!!
Whoa there Doofy, I agreed that it sucks this is happening to Dave so slow down there partner. And yes all customers SHOULD get the same treatment but do you go out of your way to help those that just slam you and yell all the time? When you are offered special treatment at your local dealer do you turn it away becasue it is not fair to the other guy? I am giving advise on how to work with the system to get what you want or at least be heard. And I did not read anywhere about a signed contract or deposits on track time. If there is a signed contract and or a deposit then Dave no matter what should have the dates. However if there is no contract or deposit then it is unfortuntate for him that business is business. Let's take for example guy says to you "I am buying your bike, I'll be back in a week with the payment" is this a done deal? Or is the deal done when "I am buying your bike here is deposit or payment for it." Again Dave sorry you get the pipe on this.
First thing to Pete an other skeptics, I have been involved with Vision Sports for going on 5 years(hopefully) I will be there to account for Dave's ability as a guru, instructor, mentor, and whatever else we all decorate his effort as. For all of you, Dave is absolutely financially strapped from doing these schools. Has CCS done anything but take the diplomas from the schools we all taught? NO Dave doesn't even get a free license through CCS. As instructors we have never received financial reimbursement for any of our help aside from some pretty sweet deals on a helmet or body work. Dave, Monte, Mark, Russ, Andy, Brian, Mike B. , Jason, Mike JR., Mike SR., Megan,Kevin, Little Mike,Steve, and whoever else I've forgotten are loyal to VRS for one reason, at one point we ALL were racers stuck in that learning phase of some sort. Super Dave helped us all. You know every one of the VRS instructors have won a race at some point AFTER working with Super Dave. Would they have done it without his input, possibly.Would they have done it as quick, NO! Chances are that some of us may have been hurt at some point and never had the opportunity. What does VRS do, they help with suspension, gain confidence, lose seconds, and most important, makes you smoother which automatically means..... SAFER!!! So go ahead CCS take the day that Dave has made strong after 4 years of his money and hard work, and racers, tell everyone you know that even talks about going to ride on the Sport Monkey Thursday thatt CCS puts our place, DON'T DO IT!
I will sign a petition for VRS. Somebody get a solid petition together on the importance of VRS and the thursday date. I like that rep idea as well. My pen is waiting.................
You know I give up with you people, IT SUCKS THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED TO DAVE if you all feel so strongly about it GET TOGETHER as a group and do something about it instead of complaining here. I think we all agree that Dave supplies a valueable asset to racers, that is not the point. The point is that if you sit here and slander the track, CCS, and anyone else that does not agree with you it will get you NOWHERE. Get one big voice for Dave instead of a bunch of small ones. OK? jeeze. ::)
Thanks Chris, someone finally got the point.
not bashin you pete, just voicing...
we all get to do that.....
and i hesitate to say that i usually tell street bikers to get as much track time as they can, and refer them wherever i know, but taking my time slot is bullshit.
YES, I believe that VRS will help me lose time and become safer as a racer. Ive seen (this, my first season) someone take VRS and get "plain ole" faster than me!!! check the records, eric custar for one benefitted greatly from VRS, i hated it, i couldnt pass him anymore. he knew it! he knows it! i thought he was on some kind of drug the way he was smiling, but he said "Dave Rosno" after tellin me how much fun he was havin....
monopoly is one of my favorite board games, but im gonna have a hard time speaking up for streeters to get track time when i think it should be school time, ......
oh and im sorry, but did i hear "FOUR YEARS" for VRS on thursdays?? it's robbery.
and i think that if we find a way to come together, we can stop this, or make em more considerate next time.
there truly is alot of us, and we pay too....
we couldve come together, we were almost there, till pete got in it >:( joking pete ;D
i type slow!!!
doofy I'd like the phone number for Gail. :o
Quotedoofy I'd like the phone number for Gail. :o
gimme a sec......
i know it was rite here somewhere....
Why does CCS have to be the most money hungry people on earth. Someone does something that actually helps and is making money at it so oh boy they have to make sure that they get paid also. I agree with merge. Dave pickup the school and take it to CRA and we will follow. See if they like not having anyone at there races.
QuoteHey Dave this in no way is against you...Clear channel is ...in business for themselves as is EVERY OTHER for profit business. Again Dave it is unfortunate that this happened to you and hopefully you will find a way to continue to provide what seems to be from the responses a beneficial service. Also aren't those track days done by Lockhart Phillips? I did one on a Friday and was very happy with it, at Summit.
Let the flamming of me begin.... :P
Well, Visionsports, Incorporated is a business that is in business to make money, also. I am a Power Mist Racing Fuel distributor here and I offer riding schools. I do not look at my customers as customers, I look at them as friends and family. I do well when my family does well.
Lockhart Phillips is the sponsor of the track day, so they are providing Clear Channel Entertainment money as the title sponsor.
Summit's a fun track. But what you get from a Sport Rider Day is probably a bit different than what you'd get from ProMotion's ART-PRO program.
Quotewhy don;t you get together and get a rep for your region to act as the person that tries to resovle issues. Or does that make to much sense? AMA riders do it and if there was just 1 rep from your region they would probably get a lot farther than everyone complaining individually.
Pete. looks like I'll be replying to a lot of what you say...
Anyway, I give CCS quite a bit of input. I worked a lot with Roger Edmonson. I had the fuel rules changed from 1999 to 2000. For the 2001 season, the fuel rules were changed and they were not highlighted, as rule changes are. I didn't even notice this until the end of the 2001 season. Needless to say, under the current rules, unleaded street gas is illegal. In fact, few fuels are legal. There would be no guaruntee that the fuel you purchase at the track would be legal.
I have been part of changes in the rules. And Kevin knows me pretty well. If there are no racers, there is no need for CCS, and CCE's money is lost. I provided a service that helps racers overcome many of the problems that guys, and girls have. I give it to 'em straight, and that's about it. I'm relatively experienced in quite a few matters, so I can at least follow an idea with a rider.
If you can teach the rider things, they go faster, crash less, spend less money, and they spend more money with CCS. Sounds like a good relationship.
In just the same way, you allow tire vendors to sell tires to racers. It's a relationship that is necessary to feed the addiction.
QuoteHave your class on Wednesday - we'll sit around on Thursday and just have a good time - Friday we will practice what you taught - Saturday and Sunday we will put it to good use.
My example is of one of my students from Champaign, JJ.
JJ works at a dealership and is about 20. So, JJ has to leave Tuesday evening to come to the VRS program now. Does the program on Wednesday, now he has to drive back to work for Thurday and Friday to make money. Taking off such a long period can be very hard when you're in that situation. What if you live in Minneapolis and you're a radiology tech? That's 300 miles one way.
I've had everything from Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday programs that I do have a better understanding of what works.
QuoteBlackhawk Farms has a rate schedule based on how big of a company you are. Individuals are on the bottom, small companies like dealers and such are next, schools probably are next, racing organizations come in around here, manufacturers come in pretty high up. CCS being with Clear Channel most likely pay top dollar.
I would say BFR is making a lot more money from renting the track to CCS than VRS. It's the same old story, just like the whole Moto GP thing here in the states. MONEY!!
I do think they should have given VRS an option since they already had the dates, although it sounds like there wasn't a contract signed yet for 2003.
The move by both CCS and BFR sucks just by them not talking with Dave. It was a stab in the back from my understanding. They gave away his dates without ever consulting with him. That's bullsh-t.
Last year I believe five people with competition licenses can rent Blackhawk Farms for about $1200. No ambulance, no corner workers.
As a business, I pay $2800 plus $20 per rider. Then I pay $1500 in insurance. Add another $500 for my cornerworkers. How about lunch? Books? Shirts? On going support for my riders. How about throwing away my racing to help everyone else. It is a cost of my doing business...
On the flip side, Brent was renting the track as practice and then farming it out as a school. Sorry, Brent, where ever you are... It's not ethical. If something ever did happen, no ambulance, no insurance...
Quote unless Super_Dave could operate friday
That is Blackhawks time. I can't have it. No one can, not even CCS.
I was a contractor with CCS from 1993 to 2000, teaching the simple school for safety. But I always tried to be a resouce for MY racers. In 1999, I developed my own independent school so I could work with the guys that didn't want to be "fit in" to the Saturday schedule or just learn a couple of flags and be told that they were doing very well..."You too could start your career in motorcycle road racing like Racer X!"
So, at the beginning of 2001, CCE and CCS consolidated their "safety program" efforts, and I was not informed of any changes until I tried to get infomation on the schedule, etc.
Currently, I have received an offer to work with CCS on the "Sport Rider Day" program. Hey, great, there will be a staff and all. I get to "work" with the riders for four to five sessions. Then, they are free to "practice" in the regular groups.
First, that is the basic offer that I have received from Championship Cup Series.
Second, I find it disappointing that the Championship Cup Series has not taken the time or respect to attempt to understand the program that I offer.
Third, I was screwed before by Championship Cup Series as a contractor, I don't see where I should invalidate my integrity of my program by offering something that does not help in the capacity that I have currently done.
Fourth, if you're offering it to me, how are you treating your offical school program in the area, Learning Curves.
As the Visionsports Riding School instructor, I made sure that I represented myself at virtually every event. I made myself available at Championship Cup Series Races when I had offers to race somewhere else.
I try to represent the concerns of other riders, amateurs and experts. Occasionally, that doesn't make me the most popular guy with the officials, but I am looking out for our best interests.
Should this course of action continue, as it appears to be, I will change the function of my school to a different program that will ultimately force the students to set up the time and place of the program. Additionally, I will potentially take the opportunities as they are offered in different areas for racing etc. Indeed, there will be those times to patronize CCS, and there will be times where my money will go else where.
So, given offer from CCS that really only sees me doing instruction to complete novice track riders, I would be happy to start helping riders put together some dates and locations for my programs in 2003.
I know that many of you were e-mailing and calling. Pete, sometimes getting the word out on the board does serve to inform others about what's going on. It is still a forum for discussion.
And thanks for your input... What's the story about the Penske thing? :'(
There is no Penske deal or issue. The "deal" in question is dead and should be left to rot. I agree with using the bbs for info but it was doing you no good by others bashing. And granted that not everyone on here knows your history that you just posted.
I look forward to taking the Visionsports school next year, wherever or whenever it is.
That said, the present school day makes sense. I thought the Nesba days were on Mondays in the past - why don't they replace those with the sport rider day?
NESBA had 3 weekends at BFR this year... and I believe they will have at least that many in '03. Pete would know better than I if their dates have been finalized.
Kim
CCS MW #507 (AM)
TL1000-R
Proud to be one of Dave's Kids!
Thanks....
Yes, working within the NESBA frame work might work. It might end up being a bit more expensive, but the class size would be smaller. Would probably be limited to working directly with me.
Thats funny what you said earlier, Dave "what if you live in Minnapolis and you are a radioligy tech" that is what Benji does! he said there is no way he can do this on a Wed. next year
be heard everyone, as our verbal adversary Pete said,"make your voice one big one"
EMAIL KEVIN ELLIOT NOW!!!!! FLOOD HIM WITH MAIL NOW!!!!
Yeah, I was thinking of Benji....
Please e-mail each other. Riders are only strong when they are together. As individuals, we're just another rider.
But, regardless, I do not feel that CCS believe's it's in its best interest to change their course of action.
Please do not expect Kevin Elliott to respond or demand that he does. If I were him I would stay out of the public fray, myself.
Avoiding the public fray...
Yes, CCS' silence is deafening. Five threads on this BBS in two days is a pretty strong statement, I'd think.
I must have missed something about knowing the NESBA schedule, I have no clue what their plans are. I'm just a member like everyone else.
Hey Dave, just my two cents but Putnam isn't that far from your Chicago Market. I know WERA is going to be there 3 times in 2003. Sucks that you are losing your Thursdays at Blackhawk...especially since they are doing the work on the track, but Putnam is still a better track. Putnam is less that 3 hours from Chicago. Just a thought.
Uh, I think she's refering to another Pete.
I'm sorry, SportBikePete... I thought you were part of the NESBA management.
(I just figured out who I had you confused with) - stupid peroxide poisoning! :-[
LOL peroxide lolololol. Nope not a part other than a member but I did stay at a..... oh that is so old now forget it.
Dave, you are starting to sound like you are wearing out. Don't give up! We are all behind you.
If Kevin will not listen, we could try to talk to his boss, etc.
Kevin Elliott's direct boss is Bill Syfan. his email address is
billsyfan@clearchannel.com. Mike Kidd is the VP of the Ft. Worth office.
His email mikekidd@clearchannel.com. They both can be reached at
817-332-4822
I must state that this infomration is 1 year old and I don't know how accurate it is. (I am not sure if Bill is still around) Please feel free to correct this info, if you know better.
Also, I know that Tiffany is gone all this week. Others may be too. Which may be why we have not seen a response from CCS.
Last I read, Bill Syfan has moved on. However, I agree we should keep up the good fight and pass the word to other racers, who can in turn pass their displeasure to CCS.
Worn out? I was worn out a couple of years ago. This just goes on top of the fire.
Dawn wrote something to the MC mags. I'm brewing one right now. I will post it when I'm done.
This is really all out of my hands right now. If I can't have Thursdays, then the program will not exist in the form that it has been. It's pretty simple. You keep praying, and you never give up. ;)
I drafted an e-mail to Bill Elliot and forwarded it to Sport Rider, Motor Cyclist, Cycle World, Road Racing World and Cycle News.
I would encourage everyone to do the same, but remember to be polite and courteous. Otherwise they will just throw it out and not give it another thought.
Dawn ;)
I RECIEVD AN EMAIL FROM KEVIN ELLIOT :) TELLING ME TO SIGN MY MESSAGE ON THE BBS, THAT MEANT TO ME HE :) IS LISTENING, OR LEAST HE :) IS SEEING THE RESPONSE TO THS DECISION. I DON'T THINK IT IS KEVINS :) DECISION, I DO THINK HE :) CERTAINLY HAS THE ABILITY TO OVER TURN THIS WHOLE THING. AND BY THE WAY I NEVER SAID TO EMAIL HIM :) IN A BAD MANNER. LIKE OUR FRIEND "SBPETE" SAID, BASICALLY BE HUMAN ABOUT IT, BUT LET THE ORGANIZATION KNOW HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS CHOICE SOMEONE >:( IS MAKING.
PROUD VRS INSTRUCTOR
PATRICK "PJ" THORNTON
235 SUMME ST.
SCHOFIELD,WI
54476
715-355-2152 EMAIL: PITTPASS55@AOL.COM
HOW IS THIS FOR STAND UP KEVIN :)?
ALWAYS DO MY BEST FOR YOU BUDDY, ON AND OFF THE TRACK!
QuoteI drafted an e-mail to Bill Elliot
Dawn ;)
LOL!!!!
I can't believe that no one caught my error on the name. Sorry Kevin.
Dawn :D
I'm a bit exhausted right now.
Thank you everyone for you help.
Please send your thanks to Kevin Elliott on this too. I am hoping to swap the dates that he has offered, but at least he has made the hole for us. I greatly appreciate that.
Dawn, Bill Elliot ? Do you really think NASCAR influence will help? I guess I don't see the benefit, but I will give it a shot, I'm emailing Jeff Gordon , wait better yet Tony Stewert, he gets pi$$ed about stuff. He might acually kick someones a$$ over it. Thank you Dawn, good idea!!! ;D
LOL! Yeah, Tony! ;D
He's gonna go out an HIT somebody!
QuoteDawn, Bill Elliot ? Do you really think NASCAR influence will help? I guess I don't see the benefit, but I will give it a shot, I'm emailing Jeff Gordon , wait better yet Tony Stewert, he gets pi$$ed about stuff. He might acually kick someones a$$ over it. Thank you Dawn, good idea!!! ;D
You never know.... NASCAR may be able to help those who are having a little trouble turning left. ;)
Error's in the post - that's what happens when you are trying to type a post that makes sense in under 20 seconds.
Dawn :)