My perfect corner
There are many different styles of corners and riding then is so dynamic. Here goes.
Approaching a corner hard on the gas down the straight watching to see the optimum RPM. I use sound of the motor, depth perception of the approaching corner and visual brake markers (#2 board, ripple on the pavement). I also set my feet on the pegs and ready my feel of the hand controls. I catch a glimpse of my turn in point.
Braking: I time the approaching brake marker close the throttle squeeze the brake lever usually with two fingers and accomplish most of the braking while vertical. Toes on the pegs I adjust my weight being halfway on the seat, upper body catching wind. Clutch depressed and gear selector being played upon with my left foot I am transitioning into the acceleration mode. I am still braking only it has dramatically tapered, still while vertical, allowing the suspension to load and recover for when I turn in. I sight my turn in point which is clear now, I sight my apex and I connect those two points in my head drawing an imaginery line through the two. I also decide where on the pavement my knee will be placed on the ground.
Turn in: I have begun my turn which might look quick and uncontrolled but in my mind has been slowed to a graceful motion. I am at full lean angle now and I know this as my other senses tell me, toes dragging, knee dragging I move them up off the tarmac but maintain the same lean angle. My upper body moving forward in relation to my lower body, up towards the front wheel I lean in anticipation of getting on the gas. I am charging head first through the corner and not just hanging on for dear life. I sight the apex and compare it to the exit of the corner. I join those two points in my mind. I am off the brake by now and already on the gas holding and maintaining speed, the chassis is neutral.
Mid Corner: I am where I envisioned and the sound of the motor tells me so, my visual perception confirms it, and the tactical senses approves. My throttle hand maintains this through a slight input of throttle. (If you're off the gas you're slowing). I watch the front for a slide and adjust speed or body positioning to compensate. If something feels different I am either going too fast or going too slow. Just before the apex I am starting to build on the throttle input and I begin to accelerate.
On the gas: Once turned I pick the bike up and to a more vertical position and pick the throttle up simultaneously to the point where when I reach the exit of the corner and I am at full throttle input. I gauge the throttle through this portion feeling the rear for traction.
Out of the corner: By now I am taking a breather and setting up for the next corner and hopefully ahead of my competition. I wait for them to pass on the straight only to do it all over again the next corner.
Mark
P.S. I am sure you have your own. I would love to hear it.
Here's what I previously wrote on my forum on the same question....
So now we're delving into "what is a corner/turn".
By my definition, and for the purpose of discussion on this thread, a corner/turn is the MANUEVER which puts the bike to the lean angle required to make the turn.
That ONE steering input is the turn.
Granted, you can be at that lean angle forever, going in circles, but if you do not make another input to the bars, you've only made the one turn.
So to recap....
Do your braking
Position your body
Downshift or whatever you need to do
Release brakes (or loosen them a touch)
Push bar
Feed gas
That simple...
Here's the steps I wrote which I personally go through on a track corner.. Say, a turn 1 situation after a long straight (mind you, this is about 2 - 3 seconds)...
See the turn
Stay tucked and on the gas
Wait for your braking point
You have more than enough time
Slide into position
Pop up as little as possible
Hold the bike with your knees
Squeeze the brakes. 2 fingers
Drop down through the gears quickly
Stay at the edge of the track
Move your upper body out
Drop your chest to the tank
Find the apex leading with your chin
Remain at the edge of the track
Do not drift in
Wait for your reference point to turn in
Do not turn in early
Release the brakes
Push the bar with one quick, concise movement
Fall over with the bike, as one happy little mushroom
Roll back on the gas
Focus your vision down the track
Hard on the gas at the apex
Pick up the bike while remaining off the side
Wide open throttle
Slide back onto the seat in a full tuck
I just have to add how I do it... a bit.
Going fast, slow down in my "area" to begin my braking by getting off the gas. Use the brake very hard, down shifting. My body position is basically set before I get on the brakes.
I approach the point where I go from straight up and down to beginning to turn.
As I turn, I am still on the brakes pretty hard.
I let off the brakes a little more, and my knee is on the ground, and I'm still pulling the bike over. I want to be tight to the inside of the track. When I get there, I want to be completely done with my braking, and I now want to leave. Open up the gas. I'd prefer to be wide open. If I'm new tires, I'll probably go to nearly wide open. I'll pick the bike up as the rear tire begins to loose just a little traction to point it down the track.
Some corners and conditions require different techniques...
Sounds like a typical point-and-shoot riding style to me. ;D
Depends on where you point.
There are reasons why it works better that I won't elaborate on here.
Point and shoot isn't really exactly the reason why, but it has to do with the line that one follows.
The general "trackday line" that is perpetuated by many is not the fastest way around, nor is it the way that a professional racer would necessarily get around the track.
Set up, set up, set up is still extremely important.
http://www.team-visionsports.com/pages/621782/index.htm
I believe it depends on what kind of bikes/engines also. There is no way that a "point and shoot" type style working better for a relatively low output engines, because those bike can't afford to lose any unnecessary momentum (affects lap time big time).
"Point and shoot" definitely works pretty good on liter bikes, especailly with Dave's description of how he brakes (maintains higher speed longer before tipping over, and minimizes time doing braking)!
It's all similar.
Did I mention that I won two races at Daytona on an old 125 GP bike?
I would elaborate on the line and the relevance to power output, etc., but that's for a private opportunity...
I think what "Sunny" is trying to say is, it is similar yes, but it's not the same. You can't be telling me that the input for riding a GSXR1000 is the same as the 125GP bike?
The similarities lie in the fact that you have hand controls and footpegs. The input in riding each are slightly different. I also know that your input in riding is very different than mine however I am the slower rider. I just haven't learned to be fast yet.
Did I tell you, I won a Daytona race on a 14 year old bike, which has 60,000 miles, a bum shock with no rebound damping(broke) and a stock front fork, against bigger faster bikes(BMW, Buell). I even got into the experts of my class and the other class that started in the first wave.
I believe each person has a different way of doing it which is evident in this forum and I like it. :)
Mark
Dave,
After rereading some of the posts, you have many good and relevant points which I agree with. It appears you make a good rider and an effective instructor. All I want to say is that each rider is different and bikes are different. I just wanted to hear the differences.
I wish I could ride like the way you described your riding style is, but I am a chicken. I don't have the skill as of yet. I am gaining knowledge of what to do but just as important I am gaining the wisdom through experiencing it for myself.
Thanks for your input.
Mark
No problem, Mark.
Experience can be expensive.
I won a race or two at Daytona on a, at the time, 33 year old bike.
Some riders are outright gifted. They just need decent opportunities to go fast. Most riders, however, are mortal, and they need shortcuts to understand and recognize how things should feel, why they feel that way, and what they really should be doing.
Enjoy the ride!
Absolutely feel what you say.. ;)
Mark
Hey Dave:
You won a couple races on a "old 125 GP" bike?
Heck that's where this has all started with you isn't it? No wonder you can ride the wheels off your bikes ;).
Talk about making sure you hone your skills! A 125 GP bike is the perfect tool in my opinion. Make mistakes and the times will punish you. Do it right and it's like a symphony!
Those of you who haven't swung a leg over a 125 or even a 250 GP bike, try it some time if you have the oppurtunity. Careful :o, it's like CRACK......
I think I have a T-Shirt with a guy named Dave on it... ;D
Didn't start on 125's. First bike ever for me was a GSXR750. Second bike I raced was a GSXR1100 Superbike in endurance races. Then an RZ350. TZ250 later. RS125 after my "first" AMA career.
Interesting how you guys are so prescise with your lines. I'm getting pretty good at controllng the bike.....i.e. turning in fast, hard braking / trail braking, getting to max lean angle at the apex, and getting good drives.
The problem I have is I'm not prescise with my lines. Not enough reference points, really. That's why it takes me forever to learn new tracks.
It's kind of like being able to paint a pretty good picture, but it is crooked on the canvas.
At least I know what I have to work on, right?
Good tips, all.
but marc what is the perfect corner or you can say favorite corner mine turn 1 at jennings or the chicaine at vir on the gas thrugh there i feel lke bayliss the only problem is i've crashed a lot in turn 1 what kills me it takes all day to figure the track out and most of the race if i've never been their .john long is one of those guys that can make 3 laps and know how to go fast he's old now and dosen't take any chances but he still gets invited to race vintage bikes all over the world i think the last one was assen he rode a thrimph triple i do know somebody dragged him to daytona to ride a tz750 this year at ahrma which he one after a motor change I asked him about a corner one time and he said it was like the one at donnington of course i've never been there. maybe that corners match other corners and experiencing other tracks give someone an edge we have 3 tracks in fla and most guys probably haven't left the state
I don't believe that I can answer that question with any certainty. I don't have that much experience. One of these days I will achieve one of my goals to make it to the tracks within the US.
Mark
what corner do you go in confident you can kick everybody's butt in?
Quote from: Super Dave on June 06, 2005, 04:23:03 AM
Didn't start on 125's. First bike ever for me was a GSXR750. Second bike I raced was a GSXR1100 Superbike in endurance races. Then an RZ350. TZ250 later. RS125 after my "first" AMA career.
+1 RZ350's are a blast.. That's how I started. :thumb:
Carry On...
Quote from: Gino230 on July 03, 2009, 04:59:09 PM
Interesting how you guys are so prescise with your lines. I'm getting pretty good at controllng the bike.....i.e. turning in fast, hard braking / trail braking, getting to max lean angle at the apex, and getting good drives.
The problem I have is I'm not prescise with my lines. Not enough reference points, really. That's why it takes me forever to learn new tracks.
It's kind of like being able to paint a pretty good picture, but it is crooked on the canvas.
At least I know what I have to work on, right?
Good tips, all.
Gino,
I would have to say you are a darn good rider no matter what you may think.
When you speak of precise I would venture to say that you mean consistent. I have always strived to be consistent rather than the fastest being on the planet. I know that there are many that are faster than you and I but are not always consistent. I believe that I have won races on consistency and not the outright speed.
Keep working at your method and maybe even pick up a few tricks by listening and observing others.
Mark