I would like to know why CCS is licensing new riders as amatuers when they are Pro Champions from other countrys????????
Just for one example follow this link
http://www.verucci.com/html/main/sponsorships.htm
This will take you to a florida region rider who is an amatuer but a pro champion from south america.
like I said what the??????
Apparently this guy is good enough to be in the experts and is just taking away all our contingency money from those who are really tring to earn it.
But for him its shooting fish in a barrel.
If there is not a stipulation in the rulebook for a person who is pro in another series(wera, FIM, SBK) to go straight to excpert then there should be. We amatuers dont need to compete with these already proven riders.
Thats my 4 cents, screw the 2.
Ok, well now im making you aware of this.
His name is GUSTAVO LAYA # 712 florida region.
It's kinda like me. I show up with a bike with white plates and keep telling them I'm an expert, but then hide my amateur status by finishing down in the ranks... It's gone quite well thusfar. And Tiff keeps believing me and putting me in all these EX races! :P
Like I said, we found out and DQ'd him. He is not registered for the 2005 season.
QuoteOk, well now im making you aware of this.
His name is GUSTAVO LAYA # 712 florida region.
This "unofficial" web forum is not a protest form... Rant all you'd like, but until you file it per the rulebook they don't even have to consider it.
Just my $.02
This Mr. Laya just raced yesterday at Jennings as an amatuer..
Jef4ry I dont disagree with you that I have to protest it offically and I will, however I couldn't access the internet to do some research before I did so. I was told by another racer that this guy was a pro champion down south at the races and I kinda took that into consideration but as TIFF said dont assume, I came home did some looking into and now here I am. I'm just kinda p.o'ed at him and i dont want to take it out on you guys but who else do i tell until i go back to the track to protest. I dont really want to see him D.Q'd but i want to see him go to expert where he belongs. Im just trying to keep every thing fair within the rules thats all.
Why dont you take this up with your CCS Race Director? That would be Henry Degow. This would be the proper way to go about dealing with the matter.
note taken, I am forwarding this info to HD himself and he will drop a call to mr laya , If you knew this yesterday you should have came to me a said something I would have researched it right then.
but be sure I will have all good before moroso.
Is this even an issue? According to Tiff, the guy was nailed, DQ'd and does not even have a 2005 license...
QuoteIs this even an issue? According to Tiff, the guy was nailed, DQ'd and does not even have a 2005 license...
According to the reply:
QuoteThis Mr. Laya just raced yesterday at Jennings as an amatuer..
Perhaps under a false name? Oooo..... such mystery.
;)
For the record I rarely get asked for my liscence at registration, I kinda like to think it's cause they remember me, but I dunno....maybe it should be looked at closer.
Was he just flying out there or did someone give him a run for his money?
QuoteAccording to the reply:
Perhaps under a false name? Oooo..... such mystery.
;)
same guy (i think)
but it was the same name winning the am races
Put it this way in a combined event he was running down Darren luck. so yes he was just flying to fast to be an amatuer.
Reminds me of the Red Bull Ducati Team that would show up with their giant rigs, a team of mechanics, golf carts, red carpets ect, and roll out the yellow plated race bikes. Always seemed to have "really fast riders" I guess they were amateurs?
gsxr_rcr - thank you for finding the info that I have been looking for for a while. I speak to both Gustavo Laya (Fl-am #712) and Gustavo Marques (FL -am #252) each weekend that we race trying to find out more info to see how "amatuer" they actually are. I have raced against both of them each weekend this year for the FL region and have been wondering each weekend what their story really is.
For those of you thinking that they do not race this year your are mistaken. Go to the CCS website and check out the point standings and results. They are both there - right up top. They both entered, I believe, six races this past weekend and I believe they placed first and second in all but one or maybe two events. The last race they were in - Middleweight GP - they finished, I belive second and third overall and were chasing down first.
Just my spare change as well
FL - AM 613
In Daytona I think he finished 2nd right in front of me - and he came from "way back" at the start!
QuoteIn Daytona I think he finished 2nd right in front of me - and he came from "way back" at the start!
Your right - from what the web site says, he started 45th. Both him and the guy from Ireland started at the back and came through to battle for the win. :o
Was he running a Ducati out of a black trailer pulled by a Jeep Cherokee with Michigan plates? I'm sorry, it's a GRAND Cherokee, right Dan? ;D
QuoteAccording to the reply:
Perhaps under a false name? Oooo..... such mystery.
;)
You may be on to something, last year on the same bike the same number the name of the rider was GUSTAVO ABASOLO but now its GUSTAVO Laya. its the same bike, same sponsors, and same first name. And to top it off GUSTAVO ABASOLO is not racing this year. I think there is more to this story than meets the eye. also lisa t has posted a picture of GUSTAVO ABASOLO from the 2004 R.O.C. but its the same picture thats on GUSTAVO laya's website. and from what I can see of his face it the same guy who raced this last sunday.
can I change my name to Gustavo?
Wow -- this is pretty rich. I wonder if this guy is related to the people who try to cut me in line at the supermarket and Home Depot? Must be a South Florida thing.
QuoteReminds me of the Red Bull Ducati Team that would show up with their giant rigs, a team of mechanics, golf carts, red carpets ect, and roll out the yellow plated race bikes. Always seemed to have "really fast riders" I guess they were amateurs?
I happen to know that yellow plate. I can vouch for him. He used to race cars,not bikes. He got injured at Daytona last year and hasn't been back since. As for the the team, it's been dissolved.
Please don't begrudge Richard because of his success. I admit he was ridding a well prepared bike, but rider talent is still most of the equation.Let's here it for the 40+ crowd!!
its pretty lame for a national champ from another country to come here and cherry pick the amature class. what the hell is wrong with people. he should run with the experts to see what he is made of.
QuoteJust a thought: what makes you think that everyone in the world has heard of the champions from other countries? This is why we have the protest form. Fill it out and let us know what's going on. I do know that we had this happen at ROC last year and when we became aware of Mr. Laya being an expert in another country we disqualified him from all of his prior races and he was moved to expert for the remainder of the weekend. Mr. Laya and his team told the registrars that he was an amateur. When confronted, his team admitted they told him to lie so that he could race amateur.
Know your facts before you make such an uninformed statement. Don't assume. We all know what assuming leads to.
Tiff , please double check you info there , as I have him winning the points in florida region listed and licensed as an amateur, I have the national ccs list he is on there also.
I never knew anything about this at the ROC and after speaking with henry no one ever told us anything. He has a current 2005 license with amateur status we check it .
Yup, he was there. I didn't notice him racing, but as I was leaving I noticed his 4 first place trophies. I just thought he was a good am rider. After looking at the website...THAT'S HIM! That's pretty pathetic if you ask me. ::)
I was there, in the room, when this happened.
Yup, he passed me this weekend also! ;D
QuoteI was there, in the room, when this happened.
Tiff , please check ccs books then and get this squared away before moroso next race and I will be sure he runs as an expert, but you need to get his license updated correctly.
As for amatuer's sand bagging to get trophy's this is one expensive way to get them, damn I will sell him some of mine at half the cost . The first win is always a great one , but after you get your groove and start winning 3-4 races a weekend they are just to big to keep them all at the house.
I tend to donate them to my kids school !
This is also a good reason amatuers should not get paid $$$ ,
It is a learning class only once you been there a year you should move up so your learning curve will be more steep also , the only way to learn to go fast is to follow the fast guys and do what they do.
been there done that !
I was a amateur for 3/4 of my first season and thought hey I did not really get a full chance at it and actually protested getting moved to expert just because I had alot of points, I raced every race i could enter my idea was more track time the better. But my second year I went to my first race it was savanna Ga, and I had new bike and won 3-4 races next week at moroso HD came to me and told me no sand bagging either race expert or go back to S.E. region to race. Boy did I hate him at that moment I was an expert from that day on . it took me 2 season's of racig expert till I won as an expert , and it was on from there. Looking back I am glad HD moved me along as it really helped me grow faster. I may not ever been the natural but I have ran with th best and feel good about it.
for know I am just holding out till I turn 40 and come back to race 40+ as an amateur to collect trophy's( lol just kidding ) I will never run as an amateur again .
Personally, I don't have a problem, if ccs says he's amateur then so be it but it seems to me that if winning am. races are that easy to him, where is the challenge? Last weekend at Jennings was only my 3rd race weekend, right now he and alot of the others are a challenge to me. Now when I get to the point where all I can get is 2nd, that's another story! ;D
Want to win? Don't like him taking your contingency? Then figure out how to go faster, and beat him. You'll never get faster by racing people that are slower than you anyways.
I agree to an extent Omni...but we're talking about a pro from another country. I'd give that answer if someone was complaining about Ryan Gordon or Brandon Parish last year. But it's not the same in this situation. It's just a pathetic cherry picker who apparently can't handle defeat. ::)
QuoteWant to win? Don't like him taking your contingency? Then figure out how to go faster, and beat him. You'll never get faster by racing people that are slower than you anyways.
I would certainly get faster racing a Professional from S. America's equivalent to the AMA. If I could catch him to see the lines. Make the weasel payback the money.
Every race I try to stay with him and learn his lines to get faster myself. As a true amatuer, without the years of expierence racing that he has, it is virtually impossible to keep up. I don't have a problem with someone being faster than me, as I know that that is the only way to increase one's own ability, but he is 3 - 4 seconds a lap faster than all amatuers he is racing against. In every situation that is encountered while turning laps, his riding shows that he is in no way an amatuer. He was turning faster lap times this past weekend than all but maybe three or four of the experts that were at Jennings and most of them had come back from AMA racing and were chasing the Suzuki money.
As for racing under a different name, he may be doing just that. The picture on his website of the rider on bike 712 from the ROC is the same rider I see on the podium each race weekend. Come to think of it, all of the pics are of the same person..... WIERD...... Different name - same person.
??? ??? >:(
QuoteI agree to an extent Omni...but we're talking about a pro from another country. I'd give that answer if someone was complaining about Ryan Gordon or Brandon Parish last year. But it's not the same in this situation. It's just a pathetic cherry picker who apparently can't handle defeat. ::)
I went back through and re-read the whole thread this time. I figured this was just another "fast amateur" bashing thread... what set me going was the reply I caught that said it was bogus or whatever because he won a race by starting from the last row. I did that in Daytona in the spring of '04 - my first ever win, and I did it from the back row. I was a true am, only having a few weekends under my belt.
If this guy really is a pro from another country (it sure looks like he is...) then it's kind of BS that he's cherrypicking. Racing by yourself isn't all that much fun IMO. I'm guessing that his wins are benefitting him outside of the USA, where they probably have NO idea whether he's running as an "amateur", "expert", "pro", whatever. Yellow plates outside of the US might not be a telltale sign (don't they run blue plates at the Isle of Man?)
So I guess in this case, whining about a really fast am is somewhat justified. I just hate it when people complain that they can't beat someone faster than them... and rather than work at it, they just whine that the fast guy should get bumped.
QuoteThis is also a good reason amatuers should not get paid $$$ ,
BULLSH*T!! This sport is TOO expensive for anyone without a sponcership. If we could get up more money to make the sport less expensive we'd have many more people able to afford this sport and it would grow!!
heres just a thought there might not be any truth in this but its a thought. I was talking to my wife about this guy and his name and she reminded me that alot of spanish people have multiple names for last names, maybe thats what he did. If he got caught last year like Tiff indicated maybe he just changed it to pull another one over on CCs's eyes. And your propably right about his sponsors not knowing that he is racing in amatuer.
This sport needs to keep people fair if we want to keep bringing people in. Alot of guys who are the fast street guys will come in a race against this guy and might say screw this sport when a guy like this Gustavo Laya waxes his butt and laps him within the six laps. If the amatuer gets lapped by an expert he might not take it so bad.
We as amatuers need just as much money if not more than you experts. We go through the tires, gas, entry fees, lodging, brakes, bodywork, parts just like you. We might even spend more money than you each weekend because we dont have all the nice equipment that you have aquired over the years. Not to mention we probably crash more than you so theres more bodywork, pegs, levers, case covers, etc... So for you to say we should not get any money is just plain ignorant. Im sure you got some money along the way when you were an amatuer. Come on experts help a brother out.
QuoteSo I guess in this case, whining about a really fast am is somewhat justified. I just hate it when people complain that they can't beat someone faster than them... and rather than work at it, they just whine that the fast guy should get bumped.
Omni Im not a basher for most of the time. Sure I might think whatever to myself, but i did a little homework before I started this thread. If hes a fast amatuer then so be it, ill get faster, but from what I found I truly believe he is sandbagging and he knows it. I'm sorry I have yet to see amatuers run 1:20 flat at Jennings, 1:22-1:23 ok, this guy was 1:19-1:20 according to his pit crew and I was running 1:22 running my butt off and he disappeared.
Gustavo is a racer from Venezuela but he in no way was racing here last year, he just moved to the states this year. I agree with you all that he should be in the Expert class since he has been racing in South America since he was 16yo and is now 21, but thats up to Henry and CCS to make the move and have him in white plates for the Moroso races.
also CCS just doesnt let anyone come in and just say i wana be in the expert class you have to show your skills 1st and then move up and i think he has done that so maybe its time for him to move up.
the only thing lamer and weaker than a pro coming here and racing as an amateur is that they are now checking ID's for F40. Who in God's name are the lame guys "cheating" by racing in the class before you are actually 40 yrs old.
I can't imagine someone pimping that class and feeling good about themselves. When they said they were checking ID's at Summit this weekend, we old guys all laughed.
If we find out who you are, we will make fun of you even after you turn 40.
They asked for F-40 guys to have ID at post race tech at RA. I thought they where kidding...that's to bad, F-40 is the only thing I had to look forward to in growing older :-/ ;D
That would be low.... almost as low as a second year amature :o ;D :P
Ok, everyone the mystery is solved, my wife was right with a little help from some friends at the DMV the riders name legally is GUSTAVO ENRIQUE LAYA ABASOLO he acquired a Florida License in 02-04. I hope Tiffany looks into this and so does Henry.
Now I hope everyone looks at this post this little more closer.
Now we know Mr. Abasolo raced last year but the question is why would you change your name???????
Good Job & thanks for doing some homework there for the rest of us! He was definitely fast in Daytona and I could only stay with him for a short period of time. It wasnt until later that a friend told me not to be discouraged that he was a "Pro from another country". New to the racing thing here I just took it in stride. But after all the posts and some more thinking, I agree. CCS should do something. If there was any intentional deception on his part perhaps penalizing him might be appropriate also.
gsxr_rcr - Look for me at Moroso, in line at tech filling out the forms to dispute Mr. Abasolo if he enters AM races. :-X :-/
I will inform everyone else that I know at the track to do the same if he is entered in their AM classes. Hopefully Henry will get this all straightened out before
By the way - what # are you
I was made aware of this situation today. But have not looked at this site until just now. I have been busy closing out the Jennings races. But I have spoke to the team rep about Laya and Marquez. He denies that either or both are experts in Venezuela. We shall see! I promise you that we will find out what the truth is and deal with it before the next race if need be.
HD
[shadow=red,left,300]TEXT[/shadow]YOU KNOW WITH ALL THIS TALK GOING ON WITH A KNOWN PRO RIDER RIDING IN AM. I JUST THINK WHEN ERIC WOOD, GEOFF MAY OR JEFF WOOD RACES IN OUR RACES (CCS/F-USA) THEY WOULD NEVER,EVER THINK ABOUT ENTERING AM. CLASSES, MUCH LESS LYING TO CCS/F-USA OFFICIALS TO GET INTO THOSE CLASSES. THEY ARE TOO PROFESSIONAL TO ATTEMPT THAT TYPE OF DECEPTION, THEY KNOW WHAT IT REALLY TAKES TO RACE AND ENJOY THIS SPORT FOR WHAT IT IS. I THINK IF THIS LOSER ONLY CAN ENTER AM. CLASSES INSTEAD OF EXPERT TO GET "WINS" FOR HIS SPONSERS BACK HOME IT MAKES HIM A PRETY PATHITIC PERSON. I'M NOT EVEN IN ANY OF THOSE CLASSES, BUT IT BURNS ME UP JUST THINKING ABOUT IT. COME ON LAYA, OR WHAT EVER YOUR NAME IS, STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND COMPETE WITH THE EXPERTS, OR DO YOU NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well not to jump on a bandwagon but the proof that HD needs is right there on that website where it lists him as a pro champion now racing in the FUSA events. Plan as day that is his bike his number and his name. I got a real close up of it in won of the races this weekend as he passed me like i was standing still in the rain. I expected an Expert to pass me but not an amatuer in 6 laps in the rain.
QuoteBULLSH*T!! This sport is TOO expensive for anyone without a sponcership. If we could get up more money to make the sport less expensive we'd have many more people able to afford this sport and it would grow!!
QuoteWe as amatuers need just as much money if not more than you experts. We go through the tires, gas, entry fees, lodging, brakes, bodywork, parts just like you. We might even spend more money than you each weekend because we dont have all the nice equipment that you have aquired over the years. Not to mention we probably crash more than you so theres more bodywork, pegs, levers, case covers, etc... So for you to say we should not get any money is just plain ignorant. Im sure you got some money along the way when you were an amatuer. Come on experts help a brother out.
That's exactly right, this sports EXPENSIVE! It's not for everyone and not every person that would make a great racer will have the means to pursue it. 100% of my racing expenses since I began racing in '96 have come out of my pocket personally. No parents fronting the tab, no supplied ride, no free anything! The most I have had is a parts discount thru my local dealership. I'm not a salesman, and actually dread the thought of having to seek sponsership, so I've paid my own way by working 50 - 65 hours a week.
Did you know that the average time someone stays involved in this sport is only 2-3 seasons? Do you know why? The main reason is cost. And why is that? Because the number of racers who actually collect contingency and payouts as Experts is limited to a small group.
The fact is that Amateur payouts/contingency are harming the sport more than helping it. Besides for encouraging racers to stay Amateur for multiple years sandbaging it takes away from larger and deeper payouts for the Experts. Amateur status is a temporary stepping stone, not a destination, payouts should not exist there. The sad fact is that the Amateurs are used as pawns in the big picture. The reason I say that is because the manufacturers know the failure rate of racers actually staying in this sport so they target the revolving door crowd of racers who are in, then out (they also look forward to you using their product after you leave racing as well). What they do is offer contingency to Amateurs to try and get you to use their product and hopefully develop a repeat customer in you. Also depended on is the word of mouth situation that exists with many racers, after all many street riders take seriously the suggestions of racers. A pawn can be described as: a person used by another to gain an end. Amateurs who use the contingency products then drop out of this sport are exactly that.
Many racers don't look forward to going Expert due to the fact that they think they won't get any type of payout like they do as an Amateur. After all not every one is capable of running up front as an Expert, and that is the only place your going to be seeing any real payout as an Expert. If Expert payouts and contingency were larger and paid deeper into the field you would probably see alot more people staying in the sport because finishing 15th (and getting a payout) as a new Expert is alot more feasible than finishing 3rd.
Multiple year Experts are not that abundent and money would definately be at the top of the list as to why not. I'm one of those that has made it thru the years, I look at the new racers every year wondering where everyone went, there are very few racers left from when I started back in '96. Lack of supporting the Experts is a sad reality that is a means to it's own end.
QuoteSo for you to say we should not get any money is just plain ignorant.
Remember that us Expert were Amateurs at 1 time too and that we are speaking from experience. Ignorence can be described very simply as 'not knowing'. I can't help but wonder if you guys were the ones who actually didn't know all the facts before making those statements? But then again maybe us Experts don't see the big picture and you guys could describe how Amateur contingency helps racers to stay longer in this sport? I'm certainly more than willing to listen. :)
Quotethe only thing lamer and weaker than a pro coming here and racing as an amateur is that they are now checking ID's for F40. Who in God's name are the lame guys "cheating" by racing in the class before you are actually 40 yrs old.
I can't imagine someone pimping that class and feeling good about themselves. When they said they were checking ID's at Summit this weekend, we old guys all laughed.
If we find out who you are, we will make fun of you even after you turn 40.
Hey K3!!!! ;D
Quote
The fact is that Amateur payouts/contingency are harming the sport more than helping it.
Are you sure this is fact or just your opinion? ;)
QuoteAre you sure this is fact or just your opinion? ;)
Straight from the former master YPSB himself! ;)
QuoteRemember that us Expert were Amateurs at 1 time too and that we are speaking from experience. Ignorence can be described very simply as 'not knowing'. I can't help but wonder if you guys were the ones who actually didn't know all the facts before making those statements? But then again maybe us Experts don't see the big picture and you guys could describe how Amateur contingency helps racers to stay longer in this sport? I'm certainly more than willing to listen. :)
Ok heres how people stay in this sport longer, people like me who have raced for several years look for a goal, depending on that goal and how fast they reach it all depends on them. Me personally I want to become expert and continue to race in events around the counrty with CCS. I have raced amatuer for 3 years and you may say that cause I suck, the truth of the matter is that in the past I could only afford to do 2 or three races a year because of my job and costs of the races. This year I have made a dedicated effort to race every race that I possibly can afford without putting myself in too much debt because I want to race for several years as an expert before I am too old. So for me making any contingency money I can helps me obtain my goal. I am sure I am not the only one out there with this goal. I understand that I will never have a full ride and I probably wont win too many races as long as there are guys with many more years of seat time at the various tracks. But I look forward to being able to say 10 years from now when some new hot-shot kid who is coming up the racks and eventually turns pro that I beat him back in the day. Its whatever turns you on, thats why we are in this sport or any other sport. And to say that a amatuer should not be rewarded in some way for improving his skill is just stupid. I mean if there was no contingency for amatuers when do you think they would see anything from this sport other than a plaque or trophy, or should the amatuers not get trophies either. You have your personal goals with this racing I'm sure. If it wasn't for the rewards of the contingency we would have less racers than we have now and eventually there would be nobody racing because wheres the reward until you become expert and can beat everyone which would take many years and lots of money. Not all of us have sponsors to give us any money. I know I have never gotten a penny from my parents , in fact my parents have never even attended one of my race weekends or even asked to attend. And I have probably one of the worst paying jobs for what I do. Living paycheck to paycheck sucks and my only real stress relief is racing since I don't like to ride the road anymore(too many people getting killed lately) so for me to recieve any contingency money I'm estatic. I recieved my first check from VP for 25 bucks last year for a 10th place finish at barber and I was happy for a month. So for you to say contingency for amatuers is harming our sport I say your wrong and I think others including experts will agree. Amatuers recieveing contingency money keeps morale up. Try working in a department like I do where morale is so low and you will want to shoot yourself, our only incentive to stay is hopes of a promotion. Morale is what keeps things on the up and up in any situation. A large portion of experts got to where they are at because of contingency as an amatuer, and they remain there now because of their contingency money. Stop being greedy and share.
You just don't get this at Blackhawk...a crazy Nicaraguan every then and again, but that's it.
Anyway, it sounds like the guy would be fast enough for expert contingency/purses anyway. What a strange situation.
Heather
QuoteLiving paycheck to paycheck sucks and my only real stress relief is racing since I don't like to ride the road anymore(too many people getting killed lately) so for me to recieve any contingency money I'm estatic. I recieved my first check from VP for 25 bucks last year for a 10th place finish at barber and I was happy for a month. So for you to say contingency for amatuers is harming our sport I say your wrong and I think others including experts will agree. Amatuers recieveing contingency money keeps morale up. Try working in a department like I do where morale is so low and you will want to shoot yourself, our only incentive to stay is hopes of a promotion. Morale is what keeps things on the up and up in any situation. A large portion of experts got to where they are at because of contingency as an amatuer, and they remain there now because of their contingency money. Stop being greedy and share.
I'm in manufacturing, Tool & Die Maker, and know all about stress and low morale. Recently there was a study that ranked Tool & Die Makers in the top 10 most demanding high pressure jobs in the US. Along with that was the observation that my field also very rarely recieves any appreciation for what they do. I also very much so live paycheck to paycheck, I personally know what that is like.
Time will tell if you last or not, wait till you go Expert for a season or 2 and then we'll see what your opinion is. :)
I guess I don't see anywhere in your argument Mike that particularly states the benefits for amateurs not having contingency money. Are you saying that not having contingency for Ams would help them stick around longer? Anyway, back to the FL problem...
If this guy was DQed from ROC last fall for racing Am under false pretenses, why is it even an issue now? Why not give him the boot and have him pay back the monies? Strange stuff this fraud is...
Quote I guess I don't see anywhere in your argument Mike that particularly states the benefits for amateurs not having contingency money. Are you saying that not having contingency for Ams would help them stick around longer?
A benefit is that they will go Expert sooner, instead of dragging their feet for years in the Amateur class and sucking the payouts away from the true Amateurs. This would also increase expert payouts and pay deeper into the fields. As I said before, many Amateurs don't look forward to going Expert, not only because of the pace, but because most won't recieve any contingency/purse payouts like they do in the Amateur ranks.
What we have now is a system that encourages racers to stay Amateur as long as possible. I'm not saying removing Amateur payouts benefits them as Amateurs, it will benefit them in the long run as a racer. More long term racers would help to stabilize and/or lower costs for not only the racers but also the organization. Experts are far more likely to follow an entire season, instead of just doing random events, lack luster turnouts at certain events is a great way to raise costs overall. My focus is on what is good in the long run, not what is good temporarily as an Amateur. :)
You Know , this is my first season at competive racing, I race my beautiful Ducati, (well was)and I love it. I havn't seen a dime from any of my contengency sponcers, just like 99% of the riders, it ALL comes out of my pocket, but I don't regret any of it because I'm doing it. In fact I'm 2nd in points in one of my classes and should be in first after moroso(hopefully), and I havn't got a win yet , just a lot of 2nds. Just the fact that some PRO has to come over here and take advantage of the situation, as well as take $$$ from the TRUE amatures disgustues me. Just like most everyone, if I want to do it I have to pay for it. I know I'll never be a pro, but I keep on doing it for the love of the sport. I just hope that HD takes care of the situation the way it should be. ;) Let pros and experts duke it out, I know one day I'll be an expert and then start making some $$$...
I agree this racing s@&t is expensive and any help any of us can get make's it easier and for someone to sand bag screws it up for all of us! So kids the lesson of the day is dont be a douche bag!!!
>:( It's not fair
I'm with you gsxr racer mike. I raced one season as an amateur and won a lot of contingency and purse money. Now I am in my second year as an expert and riding faster than before and I don't get squat. It is very discouraging . The current system where am and experts make the same amount of contingency is wrong. It encouarages sandbagging like the incident here. I have seen racers get bumped in one org. and switch to another to stay am or novice with WERA. Sure the factory contingencies are only for experts , but unless you are at the AMA privateer type speed you won't see much of that. Here is the definition of amatuer from the Cambridge dictionary. Note #2.
Definition
amateur [Show phonetics]
adjective
1 taking part in an activity for pleasure, not as a job:
an amateur astronomer/boxer/historian
He was an amateur singer until the age of 40, when he turned professional.
Compare professional at profession.
2 relating to an activity, especially a sport, where the people taking part do not receive money:
amateur athletics
I don't know what kind of pay outs ya'll are referring to as being equal between Ex and Am. In the FL CCS division the only thing Amateurs get is product contingency. No money. And the contingency cert.. that are given to Amateurs are worth much less than the Experts get.
With the technology that is available it should be pretty easy to track riders performances. After one licensed amateur year with an average finish in the top five, the next license should be expert - no questions. If the rider is only running a few races per year, well, the next year they can run those few races as an expert. For those riders switching back and for between series, all results should count towards their average. The current system of having to score a set number of points is easily bypassed by only racing a couple of races per weekend and then stopping when the points get close to the cutoff and then switching to another series. If a rider wants the contingency, they would have to finish in the top five and this would drive up their average making them ineligible for Amateur the following year.
But just like everything in life - NO MATTER WHAT - YOU CAN NEVER MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY!!!
I'm guessing that I have raced at something like 100 events since I started in '96, I know it's over 10,000 miles on the track (according to the odometers on my 3 race bikes). Over all that time I estimate I have recieved enough contingency/purse money to MAYBE pay for 1 event. The majority of that money came from Suzuki as manufacturer purse money all in 1 year when I had several top 5 finishes at those selected events on a new enough bike to qualify for the money. Other contingency has been scattered across the years and never amounted to anything substantial, almost all of that was as a top 5 Amateur (mostly tire contingency).
I'm in a position that I can get by doing it on my own, but it still hurts financially. Since I have not attempted to run up front again over the last few years I decided that I wouldn't run any stickers on my bike at all. The game has certainly changed since I did well in the late 90's, now people dump unbelievable amounts of money into tires till they go broke and have to quit. What that does is raise the bar for the devoted long term racers to a level that is financially hard to continually compete at. That mentality continually gets reinvigerated by the new guys who see the current fast guys doing it. Those select few who can constantly buy fresh tires reap the rewards of tire contingency, while the rest of the racers just end up with fried tires. It's kind of a vicious circle, by new tires constantly and you get to run up front if you have the ability, don't constantly buy the new tires and you run just outside of the contingency and end up with astronomical tire bills that you front all on your own.
Even if everyone somehow could purchase new tires for a particular race, and everyone ran the exact same pace, there are only a handfull who will get contingency money up at the front. As I said before, I look around at the riders meetings and see so many new faces every year, but not very many veteran racers, that screams that there apparently is a problem! Racers should be rewarded with incentives for staying in the sport as an Expert, not ignored as an 'also ran'. Transfering contingency from the Amateur classes to deepen the payouts in the Expert ranks would help to ease the burden for the Expert racers who are going that much faster than those at the learning level.
I was reluctent to even comment on this topic here in this thread after thinking about the legendary Yellow or White YPSB thread that wouldn't die. :-/
In the end, this is an internal thing. You have to live w/ yourself. I had some good races as an amateur last year, finished 3d in MA F40 in my first year racing making only 1/2 the races (yeah, ... day job). Got bumped this year, my only original objective was to get better and become a competent expert. The contingency is not an end, just a nice surprise when it comes.
There are guys that did better than me last year that (somehow?) stayed amateurs. I hope they enjoy the couple hundred $$ they get from Pirelli/Dunlop over the course of a year, but you can't help but respect those guys a little less than guys like ARnie, that move up and try to keep up w/ the big boys.
oh yeah, the guys I really respect are the ones that move up fast so they can collect enough expert points to qualify for an AMA race. That is cool, giving up winning amateur races to be on the same track as the pros. Who cares if you get lapped, you're riding w/ Hayden/Hacking/etc.
My hat's off to those guys.
There are certain variables which may prohibit you from racing Pro, as I found out. In my 1st year as an Expert back in '98 I qualified to race as an AMA Pro, but I didn't go that route for an unfortunate reason, insurance. The company my work uses for health insurance will not cover any injuries incurred during 'Pro' racing, they don't care if it's only recreational and not your career. Someone I work with dirt track and ice races motorcycles and is quite good at it, he races not only the Expert classes but also the Pro classes. A couple years ago he went down during an ice race and got some injuries from the studs in his tires that required him to go to an immediate care facility. He made the mistake of saying how he did it to the doctor which resulted in the insurance company trying to deny coverage. The insurance company dug into it and found out that it was a Pro event so they said he wouldn't be covered. Luckily he wasn't in a Pro class when it happened so he wasn't doing anything deceptive and he told them that. They actually contacted the race organization and found out the exact class he was running when he went down, which was indeed not Pro, so he was covered.
This is the major reason I never attempted going Pro when I use to run up front as an Expert. I have had people argue with me that the insurance companies can't deny coverage for a recreational activity, yet I saw 1st hand that they can and do.
QuoteThere are certain variables which may prohibit you from racing Pro, as I found out. In my 1st year as an Expert back in '98 I qualified to race as an AMA Pro, but I didn't go that route for an unfortunate reason, insurance. The company my work uses for health insurance will not cover any injuries incurred during 'Pro' racing, they don't care if it's only recreational and not your career. Someone I work with dirt track and ice races motorcycles and is quite good at it, he races not only the Expert classes but also the Pro classes. A couple years ago he went down during an ice race and got some injuries from the studs in his tires that required him to go to an immediate care facility. He made the mistake of saying how he did it to the doctor which resulted in the insurance company trying to deny coverage. The insurance company dug into it and found out that it was a Pro event so they said he wouldn't be covered. Luckily he wasn't in a Pro class when it happened so he wasn't doing anything deceptive and he told them that. They actually contacted the race organization and found out the exact class he was running when he went down, which was indeed not Pro, so he was covered.
This is the major reason I never attempted going Pro when I use to run up front as an Expert. I have had people argue with me that the insurance companies can't deny coverage for a recreational activity, yet I saw 1st hand that they can and do.
"Pro" is short for "professional"... and there is a difference between doing something "recreationally" and doing something "professionally." That is where the insurance companies draw the line.
I'm not dinging the experts that don't do it, I probably won't (can't). Just saying, that as compared with being a "amateur national champion," I think simply making an AMA grid is far more impressive. My hat off to them.
QuoteI'm not dinging the experts that don't do it, I probably won't (can't). Just saying, that as compared with being a "amateur national champion," I think simply making an AMA grid is far more impressive. My hat off to them.
Yes, but you will win more money/contingency being an amateur national champion than you will just making an AMA grid. Ironic isn't it.
Wasn't this thread about one specific individual that should be running as an expert ?
pretty soon its going to morph into a "have you seen the latest Star Wars movie" ;D
QuoteWasn't this thread about one specific individual that should be running as an expert ?
pretty soon its going to morph into a "have you seen the latest Star Wars movie" ;D
Isn't that supposed to be coming out in a few weeks? I heard some guy from South America has a copy of it already, he apparently got it by posing as someone else. ;) :P