So- who is using what data acquisition systems, what do you like about them and how much could I expect to pay for it. I have been toying with the idea after watching a friend put a gps on his bike to see his lap times. ::) I am sure there are a ton of other applications to add in. I figured it would help me think through some issues off track too. Any how- Thanks in advance-
http://www.advantagemotorsports.com/
$595 for the basic unit and all the sensors are an extra charge ranging from $110 to over $250 each. Not sure if you also have to buy the software also. But I guess this could run you a grand easily depending on what you want to do with it.
Contact Brian Baker of Baker Race Gear, he's on this site. He's got a really trick system and I think it's inexpensive.
Yes, this is a GPS based data acquisition program and the software is 10 times more user friendly than any of the others.
Baker Race Gear is the official importer of all the motorcycle applications.
The cost is a fraction of all the other units sold in the US.
The system also works with any and all sensors available. some of the sensors are built in the basic unit, braking, ecceleration, tire grip, G-forces, track maps, engine management etc.... call for info.
We used 3 of the systems at Daytona and they were unbelievable. We will be using these units at Road America and collecting data for customers.
Thanks
Brian
414-916-9559
brgracing1@cs.com
The biggest thing is being able to do something with the data. You can pull down a LOT of data, but being able to apply it usefully to a setup is another story.
If you can get a user friendly program such as Baker is indicating, that will help greatly, but again, you have to make the ultimate changes in the setup to make the best use of the system.
Baker had the system on my 750 @ Daytona. He went through the data, and showed me the differance between my teammate and myself (braking, corner speed, lap times, top speed braking pressure, race lines, suspension travel).
Unforetunatly for me, it showed us how much better he is at all of those things.
Brian, do you have the system listed on a website anywhere that we can check out?
Talk to the guys at Clifford Cycles. www.cliffordcycles.com or 402-558-8006 Ask for Jim or Jim. These guys have a set up that will do just about everything but ride the bike........
this is why posting on the BBS is a waste of time. Everyone has something better and the guys over at so and so's have more info. The sad thing is the people making the statements have no clue.
Baker
Loosen your girdle there Brian... Any post will get a lot of opinions (see my dunlop tire post).
Once you start working with people and showing the excellent results of your superior and affordable system, people will see the light. Until then, it's speculation.
Anybody who is truly interested in dropping the coin on it will be contacting you to get more information, or would be a fool not to.
I know a guy who works at Dunkin Donuts that took a GPS system out of his parents car, and duct taped it to his tail section. He said his system can do way more than all of yours.
Jeff, yes that is true but the last ten years I have been doing this the common things for racers are:
No $$, no loyalty, 2 years and out, John Doe knows more.
There are only 3 people that have proven that they know Data Acquisition to me, Ammar Bazzaz, Shawn Higbee and Mark Junge only one does it for a living. Before the product is even mainstream every suspension guy, engine builder and trackside sales guy will say they know what they are doing just to make $$ and the racer/customers will loose in the end.
At this point I will only sell the product, answer application questions, and help customer with data and changes.
I will not give all the hard work and info. gained over the last year by Shawn Higbee and myself out for everyone on the BBS to make judgements.
Sorry, thats just me.
Have a nice day
Brian
Brian, I'm not suggesting you give anything away. I'm saying that once someone gets your product and can step up to comment on it, the rest of the forum will get a better look inside it.
Anyway, I think we're on the same page... If someone truly wants a data acquisition system, they should be contacting manufacturers & distributors for info... The BBS is simply a means of finding out who (if anyone) uses what...
Jeff, Yes we are on the same page.
Now all you fast guys stop picking on me!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's all a waste of time and money. LOL ;)
heyineedeveryadvantageicanget.
QuoteI know a guy who works at Dunkin Donuts that took a GPS system out of his parents car, and duct taped it to his tail section. He said his system can do way more than all of yours.
That's all fine and good but he's got nothing on my man from the Kwiki Mart. ::)
GPS isn't accurate enough to use for this type of datalogging.
ya, GPS is worthless!!!
I wouldn't say all that. But it is worthless in "motorcycle" type applications unless you are trying to find out who stole your bike. For this specific application, GPS doesn't do what people think it does. Embedded applications like this don't have the software to correct errors imposed by using GPS. Not possible. That's why "Navigation Systems" in cars use DVD and a couple here and there use HD's. The Geocoding is stored on a DVD or other source. That type of memory isn't available in an application like this, therefore, the accuracy is only based on raw NEMA data with no correction.
Phew.... ;D
Dude - you have a very limited knowledge on this subject and it's obvious. You may know the basics, but don't pretend for a second that you're an expert. And certainly don't go bashing this product before you know anything about it. Take it from someone with a 4-year degree in GIS & GPS applications and programming...it's very possible this equipment is accurate enough to give valuable information. Down to the millemeter, no. Down to the meter or sub-meter on a good day, yes. That should be good enough for these purposes. If companies like AT&T, SBC, Quest, and Ameritech trusted me to be their GPS guru - I think you should take my word for it too. It's also possible Baker's stuff is crap - but until we know more I say we give him the benefit of the doubt...don't you?
QuoteI wouldn't say all that. But it is worthless in "motorcycle" type applications unless you are trying to find out who stole your bike.
well someone better tell Aimsports as their new data logger uses it ;)
10bomb knows what he is talking about.
Again like I said others think they do and the customer looses out.
We should just trash the whole thing, Ha.
Baker
QuoteDude - you have a very limited knowledge on this subject and it's obvious. ÊYou may know the basics, but don't pretend for a second that you're an expert. ÊAnd certainly don't go bashing this product before you know anything about it. ÊTake it from someone with a 4-year degree in GIS & GPS applications and programming...it's very possible this equipment is accurate enough to give valuable information. ÊDown to the millemeter, no. ÊDown to the meter or sub-meter on a good day, yes. ÊThat should be good enough for these purposes. ÊIf companies like AT&T, SBC, Quest, and Ameritech trusted me to be their GPS guru - I think you should take my word for it too. ÊIt's also possible Baker's stuff is crap - but until we know more I say we give him the benefit of the doubt...don't you?
Actually, I did speak with AIM. They use an 8 Channel Trimble GPS chipset that utilizes the TIPS format for decoding. Therefore, without necessary error correction software, I highly doubt it will get sub-meter. Plus, the time to first fix and the almanac provisioning has been issues for them. I've done research on all of this regarding AIM devices for a customer of ours. Furthermore, I'd like to know who's providing the geocode for the race tracks. Now, I'm not saying that using other things along with GPS won't help, such as Gyro's, accelerometers, ect. wouldn't help, but still. Accurate, nope not really for this application. As far as my backround in GPS, it's more than likely not as advanced as yours is, and I have no problem admitting that, but Scott Dow, our Director of GIS is. He is on our board of directors, and also is a partner in this company: www.aerotecusa.com/
Not trying to start a pissing match. It's just interesting discussion for me.
QuoteÊDown to the meter or sub-meter on a good day, yes. ÊThat should be good enough for these purposes.
Define: "on a good day."
Does that mean all satellites visible, all satellites being tracked, and no radiated emissions interfering with the functioning of the hardware?
Hmm.. from an electronics stand point, being that I have a BSEE, I can think of a TON of electrical issues that could possibly come into play on these units, but I'm not going to go there yet. ;)
Like I said, not looking to argue, just interesting discussion. 8)
5Hz GPS receiver
digital accelerometers
compact flash memory
8 12bit analogue imputs
dual rpm inputs
4 wheel/shaft speed inputs
lap beacon input
serial input for ECU/ObDii data
output to drive a dashboard
video overlay system or telemety link
I guess your right, no usefull info. can be gotten from this.
Baker
Quote5Hz GPS receiver
digital accelerometers
compact flash memory
8 12bit analogue imputs
dual rpm inputs
4 wheel/shaft speed inputs
lap beacon input
serial input for ECU/ObDii data
output to drive a dashboard
video overlay system or telemety link
I guess your right, no usefull info. can be gotten from this.
Baker Ê
I didn't say all that. Sounds like it can be usefull. I was referring only to GPS if you notice in my first post in this thread. I would however like to see the system you sell. Sounds interesting for sure. Maybe I'll buy one and play with it. Maybe the company I work for may want to try some. We are a manufacturer of these type of systems, but a little more sophisticated type systems used for various things. Who knows, we contacted AIM for one of our apps. and we don't like to "reinvent the wheel" if we don't have to.
Sorry about that last post - didn't mean to start the pissing match. But I still don't think you should attack Baker's product before you've even seen it for yourself. On a good day - could probably be better described as "on a good hour"... The satellites are always moving in and out of view of the GPS receiver. They predict and map the satellite movements so you can plan your data logging - some days/hours are awesome with 8 or 9 satellites spread evenly throughout the sky. But some hours are difficult to get good data because only 4 or 5 satellites are "visible" and they are close to each other. In theory you need 3 satellites to get a position, but in reality & mathematically when you have 4 your location becomes much more accurate. 5 is better, 6,7,8 and so on. If his system doesn't have real time differential correctioning, I'd still think it would get sub-meter at a wide-open track like Gateway, Daytona, Mid America, Topeka etc... If it does have RTDC and a base station close enough, sub-meter would be no problem. He may have troubles on a bad day in the Kettle Bottoms at Road America - or under the trees at 3,4,5 at Blackhawk...but let's wait to see before judging. With all the leaves off the trees - I don't think the Kettle Bottoms at RA will be much of a problem. But I sure am curious to learn more!!
Hey Baker, just admit it. You and all your products SUCK! ;D
Now, since all your stuff sucks, let me have it so I can throw it out for you! I promise to dispose of it in a good manner!
Brian, your email bounced for some reason. Please contact me at:
nocrashing@yahoo.com or
aglomski@osi-ds.com
Hey Dan, how's your datalogger coming? ??? ::)
My email is brgracing1@cs.com
I will try yours
Thanks
Brian
QuoteBrian, your email bounced for some reason. Ê
Hey Dan, how's your datalogger coming? Ê ??? ::)
Well, I've got a bunch of stuff done, assembled, bench tested, but not "real life" tested. Plus, it's hard for me to work on this kind of stuff when I have my work stuff to do. All the madness right now with automakers and such is causing me alot of work. I haven't given up on it, just need to find some time to work on it again.
QuoteSorry about that last post - didn't mean to start the pissing match. ÊBut I still don't think you should attack Baker's product before you've even seen it for yourself. ÊOn a good day - could probably be better described as "on a good hour"... ÊThe satellites are always moving in and out of view of the GPS receiver. ÊThey predict and map the satellite movements so you can plan your data logging - some days/hours are awesome with 8 or 9 satellites spread evenly throughout the sky. ÊBut some hours are difficult to get good data because only 4 or 5 satellites are "visible" and they are close to each other. ÊIn theory you need 3 satellites to get a position, but in reality & mathematically when you have 4 your location becomes much more accurate. Ê5 is better, 6,7,8 and so on. ÊIf his system doesn't have real time differential correctioning, I'd still think it would get sub-meter at a wide-open track like Gateway, Daytona, Mid America, Topeka etc... If it does have RTDC and a base station close enough, sub-meter would be no problem. ÊHe may have troubles on a bad day in the Kettle Bottoms at Road America - or under the trees at 3,4,5 at Blackhawk...but let's wait to see before judging. ÊWith all the leaves off the trees - ÊI don't think the Kettle Bottoms at RA will be much of a problem. ÊBut I sure am curious to learn more!!
So, how accurate is the geocode software provided with these applications? Where'd the map come from? Did someone actually pay to have the race tracks geocoded ??? Again, I'm not knocking anyones products, becuase I haven't seen them and have no experiance with anyones product other than I've tinkered with AIM's MXL or whatever it is. That and some PI stuff.
The reason I'm asking about geocoding is because of the accuracy of the "track map." The company I work for uses Navigation Technologies spatial mapping servers to decode our NEMA data and map it on our web interfaces for our customers, and we spend alot of $ doing it. Our customer base is mostly insurance companies, the feds (criminal prosecution), media companies, and large fleets like armored car, luxury taxi, ect.
Recently, we had an application in Puerto Rico. The problem was that nobody had accurate geocode for the entire island. After discussing all aspects of having the entire island geocoded, we discovered that the cheapest we could find to have the island geocoded ourselves was somewhere around $4 Mill and it wasn't worth it. That being said, I wonder exactly where these track maps came from. For arguements sake, lets say that the accuracy of the GPS data was within a meter, you still need accurate geocoding to map it. Did someone pay to have the track geocoded and put into a database? See what I'm getting at?
Again, not knocking anyones products. Just questioning the GPS portion of this type of application. I do believe that based on what I've read about BRG's product, it's more than capable of doing what it's intended to do. In all reality, it's probably more data than any of us would ever need.
Wanna hear a funny story about GPS. A few years back, we have this armored car company we do business with use one of our units to do "real time" tracking of a armored sedan. This company builds things like Level 4 ballistic VW Jetta's that executives drive. These things look 100% stock, and are "low profile" armored vehicles. Executives like Bill Gates buy these things for around $180K to keep a low profile because nobody pays attention to a VW Jetta. Little does anyone know these cars can take grenade blasts and AK47 rounds like it's nothing and keep driving. So, we have one of our units on one of these things somewhere in Brazil. We don't know what they are doing, but they want to track it "in real time." So, we have a GSM modem in there, and we stream every GPS tick back to our servers using a "dial up" type connection from the wireless modem. Inside this unit is a 12-Channel DGPS reciever, and every second our webiste is refreshing the webpage as the NEMA data comes in, and the Navtech Servers are updating our database. So, these guys are watching this thing move as "live" as it's going to get. There is some latency between the cell network and us, and we have a DS-3 hook into Navtech updating data. Then, about 20 minutes later, some guy calls from Brazil and starts going off in another language. Come to find out, the GPS data is off, and the driver of the car is saying they are in one place and the map shows they are 3 blks over. So, they're freaking out because they don't know if something is going wrong, or if the driver is setting something up and lying about his whereabouts, or what the deal is. The driver didn't know we had a tracking unit on the car. So, after the ordeal, we ask to see the unit and I plug into it and download all the NEMA data from memory because the unit logs as much as possible and then starts to overwrite it's memory when it gets full. I spend 3 days looking at this stuff and trying to figure out why was it 3 blks off. I couldn't come up with anything. A month later, I ask the guy about the location. 1 word: Glass. The entire area has glass buildings and it's a small city. The glass in the buildings caused the GPS to be off, from what we are assuming, and to this day, they have yet to tell us exactly what was going on down there that they needed "real time" data.
We still send them units all the time, but now we make them sign a hold harmess agreement on the GPS portion of our products, because we have no control of the accuracy. I guess maybe you just had to hear the guys voice calling from down there to get a kick outta this. He sounded like they had a billion $ in cash in the car and he was really sweating it. ;D
QuoteWanna hear a funny story
NO!