How many new race licenses do we get each year - like at BFR? It looks like there is about 20 people each weekend in the LCR school. Do all those people then race?
Has our growth plateaud (s/p) yet?
we loose alot each year also .,
very expensice sport., not alot of people can stick with it.,
i may just start doing drugs woudl be alot cheaper and i can stay on my couch too...
Some people go to the licensing school just to say that they did. Not everyone goes with the intention of racing. (Heck, I'd like to go, but.... then my practical side takes over.... I have the bike, ZX-6, but the suspension has 25,000 miles on it, need tires mounted, no leathers, $$$ is X-# of entry fees, etc.)
Many times you see a racer race their AM year and the year after, but then they realize how expensive this hobby really is. We raced cash only for the first two years and only made 8 total dates during that time. The third year, knowing that this would be Paul's last AM season, we went to all the race dates chasing some championships (yep, we used credit that season). Year four, the ol' SV needed a rebuild so there went most of that season. This year, well, Paul's making changes again to the bike so we're looking at limited season again. Next year though....
Cash only racing is pretty limiting, but it's the only way to stay in this hobby for more than a couple years.
Dawn :)
So you would say it's a high turnover, then.
I racked up the credit cards when I started. The next year I was lucky with a sponsorship and the next year I didn't race much, but paid off the credit cards. :D
It is too much of an addiction to do it responsibly ;)
It is too much of an addiction to do it responsibly
that is SOOOOOO true., we do anything to get out there,. pretty sad..
now where to i get cocane from ??
Most people stay an average of 2-3 years, some come and go over a longer period of time. Most leave for either financial reasons or family obligations, some leave because they get injured.
I do see growth in the industry, mostly because I think people are finding out about racing through various channels, like publications and track day oraganizers.
I certainly would like to see some solid stats.
I'm entering my 7th season. Because of the cost, I've only "done it right" for one of those years. But I'll be there, more some years than others. it's my whole social life at this point. How could I quit?
I'm staying because I'm starting to understand when the other racers say "It's my only weekend to get out of the house." ;D
In my LCR in '03 there were only two of us who raced that weekend out of 15 or so. I'll wager that with the recession continuiing on we'll see less and less new folks coming in, and fewer sticking around.
It would be interesting to see the books for A LOT of CCS's #s.
Quote In my LCR in '03 there were only two of us who raced that weekend out of 15 or so. I'll wager that with the recession continuiing on we'll see less and less new folks coming in, and fewer sticking around.
In my LCS class in 99 I'm probably the only one still racing out of the 25 guys.
Ressesion?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=668&ncid=749&e=6&u=/ap/20050225/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy
When I expanded my instruction program in 1999, it was to offer something to racers to try to fix some of this.
Racers last an average of 2 plus years.
With that, MOST riders that are involved don't know much, and they don't pass on much knowledge to their newbie counterparts.
CCS schools started seeing riders enter the schools for the opportunity to just ride on the track over ten years ago. But that kind of thinking is only getting bigger. The ratio of racers to be vs non racers has gotten out of whack.
What is being taught? Can real things be taught to 30 plus riders in a few on track sessions and some classroom?
If there were real recognition of the problems with that, I'd be doing what I do for fair living.
Recession continuing on?
Kevin Elliott and I talked about that...
You can practically draw a line in May of 2001 when things got a bit slower for the racing market. That was when the Fed announced that we were in a bit of a recession. Sometimes things follow based on the perception rather than fact. The economy was in a down turn much before the announcement.
There are other factors at play in the market place.
As for plateau...
Didn't we cover this?
Motorcycle sales are over the million mark. Sportbike sales are still quite good. Very, very good. Tire prices, honestly, are reasonable, in my estimation. They are much better than they used to be, but the costs have not excalated as much as fees...
Blame the lawyers...
And do it again...
Caused rates for most things to go up...
QuoteRessesion?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=668&ncid=749&e=6&u=/ap/20050225/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy
Stronger doesn't mean strong. ;)
I took LCR just to ride on a track. Racing looked like fun, so here I am.
This is my 4th year of racing. Whoo hoo! I beat the avg. ;D
QuoteStronger doesn't mean strong. ;)
If steel and gas prices would go down, our country might be able to do something
The race addiction takes alot of disposable cash. Chasing a championship takes a truckload of disposable cash. We get the turnover because some people decide that somehow paying the rent and eating are a better alternative... I'll never figure them out.
QuoteThe third year, knowing that this would be Paul's last AM season
Dawn :)
wish i had more than 5 weekends as an AM! :(
Quotewish i had more than 5 weekends as an AM! :(
I think sometimes that affects whether riders stay or not too...
There are riders that seem to be around for an eternity as amateurs...or bump back from a poor expert year to win the amateur championship...???????
I don't know what to say there.
Then there are some that are required to bump to expert status...
Does leave a bad taste in the mouth of some. And you know how that goes...an unhappy customer tells how many people....
Doesn't make anyone jump right up and say, "Hey, I'm gonna go be fast and have fun."
People want to be competitive in a reasonable fashion. Mind you,
QuoteDoes leave a bad taste in the mouth of some. And you know how that goes...an unhappy customer tells how many people....
... from the few remaining brain cells I DIDN'T pickle in college... A happy customer will share their good experience with (4) other people. An unhappy customer will share their negative experience with (14) people.
I've been racing in this sport since 1991. AM for (2) seasons, EX for the rest.
I'd probably have a decent retirement saved up if it weren't for this sport, but I wouldn't change one second of it.
I think lots of people spend lots more $ than required to have fun and be (reasonably) competitive. Time may be the better reason.
Beyond the $$, some of it is people racing as they are younger, getting older and realizing racing is a little crazy (all the more reason to stay).
I'm told another traunch of people leave after having fun/success as amateurs, then moving to expert and realize they aren't going to win anymore. We'll see, this is my first season as an expert, and I just want to be safe, respectable, and chase the self-mastery thing. I'll know more in 10 days, after my first Daytona/races as an expert.
That's right Russ.
Why spend all the money at the end, when you're too old to enjoy it? ;D
That's why they need a couple comp classes for us who will never be top experts, but are no longer amateurs. I know the logistics would be hard, but it's nice to dream.
Maybe give us blue plates :D
Wow -- like a Blue Plate Special class? I would aspire to that, for sure. Kind of like Formula 40, but based on racing longevity, not actual age . . .
yeah - no money awarded. Maybe only two classes - lightweight whatever and 750- with moderate modifications. Anyone who is serious and wants to highly modify would go Expert anyway.
Those of us who just want to race for fun don't need extensive motor mods or full slicks. So the blue plates could just do supersport mods and compete for FUN - without a ton of expense in mechanical work, track setup, or whatever. It would be for those who stay amateur because they aren't serious, but they aren't really amateur - they are just club racers with a limited budget.
I don't see myself racing an AMA event and I feel bad when I'm holding up the top experts who do. Do you think I feel any pride when the top two are battling and have to lap me? BUT I want to keep racing. So it's either remain amateur and skip events so I don't get too many points or I suck it up in expert. Or quit after a couple years.....
Anyways, I better grab another beer and get back to work :P ;D
QuoteRessesion?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=668&ncid=749&e=6&u=/ap/20050225/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy
Yes, recession. I can't put stock in a Yahoo news report, sorry. About 25 years ago similar conditions were here; oil was high, good jobs were few, interest rates were high teens low 20s, gold went through the roof. As SD mentioned it's a matter of perception, and that perception is well manicured by Washington. Anyway, the jobs are leaving. Some are coming around but we're losing blue collar jobs paying in the $12-20 an hour range. Hundreds of them in our town. Lands End just decided to lay off a couple hundred people. The DOT in Madison is cutting 100s of jobs right now. The doom and gloom could go on and on, let's talk racing instead.
I like figures that are based on facts. Can someone address this question to CCS? What is there to do if the numbers point to a time when action HAS to be taken? It seems the cure all solution will be higher fees, like never seen before, if some co-op is not considered. If spring of '01 was the start of a decline, at what point does CCS have to take more drastic action? Wait, they have already eliminated most amateur money. I guess the expert money is next. ( Just thinking out loud here, don't mind me.)
QuoteThat's why they need a couple comp classes for us who will never be top experts, but are no longer amateurs.
http://www.team-visionsports.com
Visionsports Racer University...
QuoteI think lots of people spend lots more $ than required to have fun and be (reasonably) competitive. Time may be the better reason.
Thats why I have a school. I've watched too many mistakes on that end. Again, http://www.team-visionsports.com
QuoteBeyond the $$, some of it is people racing as they are younger, getting older and realizing racing is a little crazy (all the more reason to stay).
Assumption.
The current demographic for racers is that a current club racer is in the mid 30's. That's old enough to have a job and some money. The demographic has gotten older over the past years.
Even look at the AMA Pro grid. Miguel has been there as long as I. Former factory road racer Mike Smith still shows up occasionally at club and pro races.
QuoteI'm told another traunch of people leave after having fun/success as amateurs, then moving to expert and realize they aren't going to win anymore. We'll see, this is my first season as an expert, and I just want to be safe, respectable, and chase the self-mastery thing. I'll know more in 10 days, after my first Daytona/races as an expert.
Yeah, common. I understand what happens. Really having success is contingent upon a few things. Different for different people, but i reserve my elaboration.
QuoteWait, they have already eliminated most amateur money. I guess the expert money is next. ( Just thinking out loud here, don't mind me.)
Amateur money was added.
That was something that was never dreamed of. Not so long ago, there was no contingency money for amateurs.
For racing, track day programs are part of the enemy next to the economy. Sorry folks.
Where is amateur money being eliminated?
Where is amateur money being eliminated?
[/quote]
Howdy SD,
wasn't it eliminated from the GT classes that are now listed as "trophy only"? Last year ams. were eliminated for cash in something else, I forget exactly which one, in FUSA I think.
Trophy only in FUSA. There were some that felt there wasn't room in the FUSA series for amateur stuff. It was originally sold as a pro program, but it has since recessed into a bigger expert sprint races with a poor payout.
Certain manufacturers promised support and then withdrew after the rules they demanded were implimented...that was my impression on the surface.
The FUSA program in 2000 paid the championship winner like $50k...and also a similar amount to the team owner. Was a real alternative to AMA Pro Racing.
Aha, gotcha, (promo for a school I am not affiliated with.) What aspects in your Racer University do you cover for getting to know the ropes of race organizations like CCS or AMA? I get the feeling there is a wealth of knowledge that is passed on in your classes beyond looking at reference points on the track, yes? I'll go back to your site and take a closer look.
Hey, on Mike Smith, wasn't it Smith on one of the HD VR1000s? I don't have such a good memory of who the guys were running them at RAmerica, but there were a pair of them running the black and orange, proud, and as the race progressed from where we watched at CCorner the HDs got obnoxiuosly louder and louder, accompanied by great loads in the twins building up and exploding from the cornering decel as they pushed to the bridge. I wanna say Picotte and Russel, or Miguel and Smith.
Smith was like the only guy to beat Doug Polen in the AMA 600 Supersport in 1987. Eventually, he was on the factory Honda team racing Supersport and Superbike. Eventually, he was offered a ride kind of post retirement with the VR. Wasn't any young guys that were attractive for the gig.
What you learn...
Well,..
Here's some of the problem that I see...
Honestly, racers do some things right and some things wrong. Often some of the bogus MSF stuff that gets jammed into what we call "rider's school" is not what is applied by Rossi, Mladin, Key, or others. There is a substantial difference in how that makes a rider feel when trying to compete at a reasonable level when they don't recognize that what they are doing isn't right. Often the translation is wrong. Then, even, riders around them are pretty inexperienced doing the same things too. You'll get some gifted guys there for reasons that I won't elaborate on. I understant their reasons for doing so well, but they don't. Often getting those riders to continue is harder than getting the ones that have to struggle to continue.
Anyway, I won't follow a specific plan on the day of the VRU. Really depends upon the riders.
Then there is the on going education. You get me for the "Sh1t, get Dave!" Issues. Where would you like to limit the scope? Support packages, suspension issues, chassis, body position, where do you want to stop? Brake combinations, oil, clutch...
I'm not going to do much physical work other than helping out with moving suspension components around...move up forks, preload, anything...internal stuff...I can do it, but I elect to have someone do it like http://4and6.com because I want it done right the first time.
I can't make magic all the time. Sometimes I end up working with things that you can only do so much. Your budget won't allow something? Well, there's gonna be issues. I can sort through that pretty quick. You've got this and this and this. This is why, this is what you're left with.
Give you some ideas?
QuoteThat's right Russ.
Why spend all the money at the end, when you're too old to enjoy it? ;D
If I croak with anything left, it's because of a miscalculation.
[quote
Give you some ideas? [/quote]
Yup, how many slots are left for May 26 VRU?
I'm getting some traffic right now. Nothing is solid. Don't even have the new form up yet....
Russ, yeah, I know what you mean... ;D
QuoteThe current demographic for racers is that a current club racer is in the mid 30's.
;D
The biggest obstical i have is im doing this mostly alone. So it kind of sucks driving 5 hours and comeing home after crashing.
I hear you Steve. That was how I got started in the schooling business per se. I needed someone to help me pay for gas. So, getting someone to race, feed the addiction, was a sure fire way to get help.
Invariably, I knew what I needed to do and where I wanted to go. I had to go places alone. I did AMA Nationals alone. Crashed too. Racers help each other out, though.
QuoteFor racing, track day programs are part of the enemy next to the economy. Sorry folks.
I agree. I got into this topic on the SBN board and alot of people were oblivious to this fact, they all seemed to think track day organizations somehow helped racing. If you look at the 2004 schedule for Blackhawk Farms (which is still up as of right now) it shows just how many weekend dates are consumed by not only motorcycle track day organizations but car organizations as well (those are called autocrosses). I remember when many of us were complaining about the 1st BFR event each year ending up with winter weather and us wanting that event moved to a later date. I believe the intent of wanting that event moved was to have a more competative higher turnout event without snow still on the ground, but we still wanted to keep the same number of events there per season at BFR. As I remember it Kevin wasn't able to secure a replacement date, largly because of the number of weekend dates consumed by non-racing organizations.
I think many people find it satisfying enough to do the track days and not actually race, this opportunity IMHO keeps more riders from actually becoming racers. I have seen many riders bragging on SBN how they have been doing endless numbers of track days with the intent of getting good enough to go racing, yet most never seem to make it to the actual racing. I'm sure there are people out there that actually use track days as some kind of stepping stone into racing, but as I believe and SD has argued many times, what are you gaining doing uninstructed track day laps as a beginner? Even if you don't seek instruction as a new racer you will improve just by truely racing with other people, though without instruction it will take much longer to get up to speed and you'll probably develop bad racing habits along the way.
I think longevity of racers staying in this sport would come from lowering or removing Amateur contingency and moving it to the Expert classes and paying deeper into the Expert fields. Contingency providers are banking on new racers using their products and developing a following by those racers during there motorcycling lives, sadly though most racers don't last, somewhat because of this very action of paying out to the Amateurs. If the contingency sponsers would just figure it out that many Amateurs look to the Experts and what they use, then use those same products themselves. Provide contingency only to the Experts and I bet there would still be a lot of use by the Amateurs of those same sponsers products. I also bet this would end the sandbagging problem that exists so obviously today. Give racers an incentive to go Expert and stay involved thru payouts and there would definately be a shift in how long racers stay involved in the sport.
Another big issue is the debt situation, which led to me personally missing 2 seasons. I now race thru cash only and it's probably the best thing you can do personally to extend the length of time your involved in this sport. It's definately a great feeling at the end of the season knowing that you don't owe a dime for the last season's racing effort. I have made this suggestion before and I will make it again here. Figure out how much you realistically plan on spending for racing for the entire year, divide it by 52 to figure out a weekly amount, then put that much into a racing only account
EVERY week of the entire year. I personally would suggest getting a checking account for this with a check card so you can pay for all your racing related expenses directly from this account and have an ongoing record of all your racing expenditures, this is also great for tax purposes at the end of the year. :)
Debt situation...
Ok, I'll play credit card trade with just about any of you and win.
That comes from putting money into others track time in addition to doing what needed to be done.
But...
There have been times in my career where I though I needed one thing, but someone of value stopped me and said, "Hey, Dave....no..."
I understand all that. I have a guy that wants to get a full Rob North chassis built for a CB400F that we raced...That's a whole lot of money, but I honestly don't see that we've exhausted what we need to do with the stock chassis. I know of some modifications that NEED to be done that WILL make it work better for an absolute fraction of the cost.
I guess that's part of what you get from SD schooling...sometimes a dose of reality...but it doesn't have to cost more when you get that reality.
My school costs X dollars...but what do you save in the long run? Then the question comes back to my students: Have you utilized me to the extent you need to? I'm often amused by students that I know that blanket shoot for answers in places where I don't see many right answers. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I don't have all the answers, but I have a good number of them.
Ok, shut up... :D
Quote I'm often amused by students that I know that blanket shoot for answers in places where I don't see many right answers.
You lost me on this one ?? err what ?
Mike, You racing again this year ? whole season? This is what 7 years for ya ?
QuoteMike, You racing again this year ? whole season? This is what 7 years for ya ?
Yes Steve, I'm racing again this season, plan on doing the combined MW & GP schedules. I leave for Daytona tomorrow afternoon (want me to pick you up along the way?) to race the CCS races this weekend, then stay for Bike Week and spectate all the AMA races. I started getting the bug to go fast again last season, but didn't start riding my 750 till the last 2 events (and I had lack of brakes for some reason on the thing? :-/). Hopefully I can use Daytona to get my head back in the game and at the same time have a much needed true vacation (1st in a decade!)
As far as how many years of racing, well I would have to say 4 years of true racing, and the last 3 years of just playing around. I plan to make year #8 another true racing year!
Quote...some leave because they get injured.
I raced 1 1/2 years so I guess I'm bringing down the average. Hopefully I can be back someday... :-/
QuoteYou lost me on this one ?? err what ?
LOL!
There are fair and reasonable answers to things. I've seen things that are just as bright as daylight.
I comment, and then the person goes on and consumes hundreds of dollars doing the same thing exploring all these options from twelve different sources. At what point should a person execute?
There's a way to get through a corner. Yet, there's some mish mash ideas that get tossed around on how to do it. Riders go to their track days and races and do it all wrong. Tell them over and over. They'll ask every fast amateur how they do it and get the same MSF idea everytime. Over and over, the rider has the gut feeling of terror trying to manage traction front and rear when the answer has been transmitted.
Yes, the line that a bike would follow would be almost exactly the same, but the execution is completely different.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...
I'm just having a personal rant. There are ways that I can make things easy. But sometimes riders just want it to be hard.
Quote want me to pick you up along the way
OK now im crying !!
Good luck and have Fun !!
Quote(and I had lack of brakes for some reason on the thing? :-/)!
Seems like you two have common ground....
GSXR RACER MIKE
I am one of the track day riders that used the track days as a stepping stone. A buddy and I started by doing a two day Code's CSS in May of 2002. During 2002 and 2003 we did about 15 track days. last spring we decided that we wanted to try our hand at racing.
We had a blast and cannot wait for this season to begin. He was the LRRS rookie of the year (42 yrs old at that) and at 36 yrs I won a few races myself. Both of us are completely into racing, something i don't think either of us would have done if it were not for using track days as a stepping stone.
When we do track days now it is like a sunday ride. We obviously enjoy it but we also would rather be racing. Sure alot of people use track days instead of racing. Another buddy of mine almost died in a crash during a race at Loudon (before we knew him) so he prefers the slower pace of track days. We try and get him back to racing and he laughs and tells us that we are crazy MF's and that the 50 or so plaques he has in his garage are all he needs.
I guess my point is that including my buddy and myself I pit with two other riders that started doing track days and then decided to try racing.
IMO track days have made getting on the track less intimidating to newbies and is a great stepping stone to racing
Man, I'm gonna p1ss some people off with THIS post!
I have to disagree with Mike about trackdays. When I started, there was only racing. I spent so much money for so few laps with CCS. Aside from that, every time I modified a bike, CCS changed the damn rules. It's like they knew my plans and were working actively to thwart me. The money I wasted was insane.
Dave, I understand what you're saying about making laps without instruction, but at least you're making laps. Is the middle of the English Channel a good place to teach a beginner how to swim? Just toss him in, he'll be fine! Is it possible that all these years later, the great Guru Dave has forgotten what it's like to be absolutely clueless and terrified? How much can you, Dave Rosno, teach somebody who's in pure survival mode? Although passably quick from the beginning, I wasn't ready for your help until I'd been racing for a few seasons. Not everyone arrives with skill falling out of their @$$. Trackdays have a group for the dangerously slow riders, and these people get constant attention and nurturing. I coach at track days now, and I'm proud of that. We learned exactly NOTHING about riding in the race licence school that I took. We were expected to be good riders when we showed up. Where should one develop those skills? I learned them in canyons at great personal and public risk. Now, we have track days.
There is a lot to be said for just getting the mentality necessary for constant high speed running, and that takes practice. Plus you have to learn how to take care of the bike, ect.
$175 will get you three races and two practice sessions at a CCS weekend. The same money will get you eight or nine 20-minute sessions at a track day Saturday, and another $100 will get you as many sessions again on Sunday. If a guy is still learning how to shift, brake, and hit his lines, where will he be better served?
Dave, you really don't remember some of this stuff. How many times have you seen a racer who is woefully off pace? Getting lapped twice in an eight lap sprint? Other riders complaining about the horiffic closing speeds, and saying that the slow rider is unsafe? Is that person being nurtured to improve in such an environment? Hell no. The amateur/expert combined races are just WAY too fast for some people to learn in.
If I were getting started in racing now, I'd do track days until I could run a certian pace that would match me with the front-running amateurs. Then I would jump in and try racing. It would certianly be much more cost effective than the way I did things. And lets face it, the almighty dollar is king in this sport....
This viewpoint may be unpopular, but it's based in hard fact. Purely from a milage standpoint, trackdays are much more cost effective than racing. Why blow the cash before you're ready to compete? You'll likely just get a bunch of 6th through 10th place finishes, then CCS will move you to expert because you earned some POINTS! Hey, I was asked to move up before I ever earned a single piece of wood!
Dave? How was it that Benji showed up at his VERY FIRST RACE so much faster than the guys he ran against? Was that just supernatural ability, or had he put in a bit of time at track days before he came racing?
K3
I read your post a few times. I disagree with a few of your statements ( Hard facts") are allways relavent to a persons situation. Just because you were not ready for Dave's instuction does not mean others were not or are not. Take me for example. I was that guy that was runing in scard out of my mind. WHY? I did not have the skills to ride fast. As far as smarts go I pick things up quickly. Dave gave pointers on the skills that I lacked. The rest of the year I ran great.
Now I did do a few track days for seat time. But the track days were spent working on the right things vise doing a bunch a laps. Do'n get me wrong track days are good but they should be spent working on the right things.
Mel
I'll agree with you there. Also, not all trackdays are created equal. I coach for STT, and believe that just about any amatuer level rider can find some useful coaching from the staff I work for. I've actually found my own lap times dropping since I began coaching, and I believe that it's because I concentrate so hard on the fundamentals when I teach. There were things, sloppy habbits, really, that I had picked up as the years passed. My own lap times had gone stagnant. Now they are falling again.
(Dare I admit that while reading the STT instructor's guidebook and watching the other instructors teach, there were tips I picked up that I hadn't learned from Code, Rosno or Bruer? Little things, yes, but important nonetheless. And stuff I'd never learned in 6 years of racing!)
Perhaps other track days aren't as instructor-friendly as STT is. We work 40 minutes per hour with our novice students, and they can stay novices forever, if need be. Intermediates still seek out their favorite coaches for one-on-one sessions, and the coaches are prowling and ever-vigilant in every session. If someone appears to be struggling, they get help. Racing sure isn't like that!
So maybe what I had to say in my initial post doesn't apply to all trackday situations, but is based more closely on what STT does. I really don't have the experience to know if the situation is different elsewhere. I do know that each rider arrives at the track with his own abilitys, and not everyone is ready. For those at the middle to lower end of the talent curve, track days are a safer way to start. For those low on cash, track days provide a three-tier system to gauge one's improvement as a rider, combined with cheaper per-lap costs. Anyone who can hold his own as an advanced group trackday rider will be a VERY fast amateur racer. Many of these advanced trackday riders have never raced. How did they get so fast then, if track days are meaningless, empty laps that teach nothing?
This is why generalizations are a BAD thing. What K3 says is right. What Dave has to say is right...for the right individuals.
Track days will not teach Nicky Hayden a damn thing about racing, but they will teach folks who are new to track experiences how to handle themselves in that situation. Obviously coaching levels vary.
A licensing clinic is not a race school or track day. It teaches a potential racer the rules and basic ettiquette required to race.
Race coaching might teach Nicky Hayden more about racing, but only with the right coach. Race schools are race coaching, and should teach a rider how to deal with racing situations. Choose a race school to fit your skills and experience.
You also have the argument that track days take money from racing activities. We live in a capitalistic society, and free enterprise reigns. Track orgs want to make money, tracks are willing to sell them the days, riders are willing to pay. The people who will also benefit are all of the vendors and retailers that provide product and services to these riders. Trackside vendors like tire people, suspension guys, tuners and video services can make a decent living off of this. Local and mail order retailers as well as service providors can also make a buck. (Yup, that includes me.) Track days provide us with an additional source of income, which gives racers a wider array of available product and services to choose from. Not only that, it can help keep your costs as a racer down, due to the fact that all of this stuff is being consumed by someone other than just racers.
The motorcycle industry as a whole is growing. This can only benefit racers. I see all sorts of people looking to get into the making money from the sport of racing. What they need to keep in mind is that you need a broader base than just racers to actually make some money. Racers will only spend that dollar where it will benefit them the most, while everyday riders might not be so discriminate with their money.
Just a little something to think about.
QuoteYou also have the argument that track days take money from racing activities. We live in a capitalistic society, and free enterprise reigns. Track orgs want to make money, tracks are willing to sell them the days, riders are willing to pay. The people who will also benefit are all of the vendors and retailers that provide product and services to these riders. Trackside vendors like tire people, suspension guys, tuners and video services can make a decent living off of this. Local and mail order retailers as well as service providors can also make a buck. (Yup, that includes me.) Track days provide us with an additional source of income, which gives racers a wider array of available product and services to choose from. Not only that, it can help keep your costs as a racer down, due to the fact that all of this stuff is being consumed by someone other than just racers.
The motorcycle industry as a whole is growing. This can only benefit racers. I see all sorts of people looking to get into the making money from the sport of racing. What they need to keep in mind is that you need a broader base than just racers to actually make some money. Racers will only spend that dollar where it will benefit them the most, while everyday riders might not be so discriminate with their money.
Just a little something to think about.
Ah, now it gets interesting.
The industry is growing, but it puts nothing back.
Really, it's not a new problem. It's why Roberts, Senior, left and took Rainey to Europe in 1984; his personal frustration with the American motorcycle market.
Motorcycle sales are up, and race entries at the pro level are down.
Track day programs are even skirting the established knowledgeable vendors and doing their own vending. It's easy to sell a lack of knowledge to those who lack knowledge. It's sold with hype and color. That's the American motorcycle market.
So, the established vendors get cut out, and the real knowledge base is diminished.
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome...
Well, someone called that insanity.
Goes for a lot of practice for some riders, a majority of track day riders, and the motorcycle industry (in general).
;D
Free enterprise can reign. It doesn't mean that the market is leading anything down a path of prosperity.
Example...since we're on a racing board....
How many young top level road racers in the US have a road racing back ground...meaning that their primary skill was road racing, not something else.
Jesse Janisch was a dirt tracker. 4&6 and I worked with him and his family to convert him. Haydens. Dirt track. Yeah, it's not new. But you had guys like McDonald, Russell, James, DuHammel, Greene, and a host of others that really have a road race back ground.
You don't see that. I don't even hardly look at the local grids to see where some one is from. Look at all the imported riders from Europe and Australia. Nothing up and coming of value here. Bother anyone?
My biggest complaint with the track days is there now overpowering presense in the amount of weekends they consume on RACE tracks. I think that the racing organizations and true racing schools should get dibs on weekend dates, then the track day org's can fight over the remaining dates (to help provide more weekends for actual racing!)
If I could have started all over again I would have riden dirt track before getting into Road Racing.
It is so much cheaper to race dirt track then to road race. Dirt track teaches alot of fundamentals that are very useful when it comes to getting on the road race course.
I can go out and race 20 f*ckin dirt track races for the cost to race one one weekend of road racing.
Road Racing is so G*d D*mn expensive.
TIRES TIRES TIRES!!!! TIRES ANYONE TIRES???
JESUS CHRIST!!!
QuoteExample...since we're on a racing board....
How many young top level road racers in the US have a road racing back ground...meaning that their primary skill was road racing, not something else.
Actually, that doesn't fly. How many people do you know who have a degree from college or a university who are working in the field they originally earned their degree in?
I know of the following (degree: career path):
Architect: Tae Kwon Do dojang owner and 5th degree black belt
Architect: Computer systems specialist for Snap On tools.
Phsyc and education: Writing grants for major universities
Lawyer: Vice president for Blue Cross/Blue shield, aquisitions (probably the one closest to her true degree)
Physician: writer
at 19 I was working on a Dance degree...look where I wound up.
The list could go on.
We as a society created the " compete or get out" marketplace. If you are a traditional vendor, that's hold true for you as well. The older vendors should have the money and knowledge, the new guys are at a disadvantage. How do they take over the biz? By offering something other want. Maybe it's better service, maybe it's better incentive or price.
As far as the industry, I really do think it's growing, and we cannot measure that growth by racing alone. Racing does not exsist in a vacuum, it exists alongside and even as a fringe to a larger market.
Something that the car manufacturures have managed to do is create innovation OUTSIDE of racing. This is a new phenomenon, but it came about through the development of computer programs. This also translates into the motorcycle market.
We don't NEED Valentino Rossi to test new and innovative ideas on the track while engineers make major changes. That is done on the computer and through factory test riders. Rossi becomes an important marketing tool, and that in and of itself is becomes a separate entity from racing for racing's sake.
The saying goes, to make a small fortune in racing your must first start with a large fortune. This has not and will not change in the forseeable future. Companies use racing as a marketing tool. Club level racers and national level privateers don't make a company money, per se. Bike sales, aftermarket parts and apparel sold to the general public creates cash flow by and large because it's the lion's share of the market. Racers can be tools of the marketing machine.
Track days contribute to the market by creating a new marketing outlet. Quality and viability will find its own balancing point within the vendor, service and retail structure. Good businesses, old or new, will succeed based upon their own merits as judged by the consumer. Supply and demand, price and value. Capitalism at it's best, and unfortunately, sometimes worst.
It doesn't matter where the racer comes from. If they can be a marketing tool, good for them. It doesn't matter what the basis or background is of an industry based business, if they can produce and provide a competitive, quality product to the consumer, they will succeed. Bottom line. ;)
QuoteI can go out and race 20 f*ckin dirt track races for the cost to race one one weekend of road racing.
Road Racing is so G*d D*mn expensive.
TIRES TIRES TIRES!!!! TIRES ANYONE TIRES???
JESUS CHRIST!!!
You mind your language boy! ;)
QuoteIt doesn't matter where the racer comes from. If they can be a marketing tool, good for them. It doesn't matter what the basis or background is of an industry based business, if they can produce and provide a competitive, quality product to the consumer, they will succeed. Bottom line. ;)
Or does it?
If American motorcycling isn't producing anything for the market...
What's a more important industry?
I guess I have to look at American riders as a market. They aren't getting rides, as even the American industry doesn't look favoribly at them. So, why doesn't the American motorcycle industry do something?
Was the American market better when we had guys like Baker, Roberts, and Nixon racing in the World Championships? Simple answer is yes. We're trying as of late to try to compare motorcycle sales to that era. Any current strength in motorcycles currently is the return of some of those people to the market from a previous era...The population of Americans that are available to sell motorcycles to has certainly increased, and if we had the penetration into the market that motorcycles had then....we'd be way ahead of the numbers that we have now..
I have more responses, but I don't have a huge amount of time...
There are some great debates going on here, but Lowe 119 asked "has the growth plateaued?". SD mentioned a conversation with Elliot pertaining to 2001 and the downhill slide from there, economically and in attendance at the track. A second part of the original post was turnover #s; Anyone in Ft Worth care to offer up the stats, or will this be swept under the rug as well in HOPES that things will get better if we ignore it. Sharing information is part of the key.
Here's an idea that is info sharing related; Getting your race license with CCS entitles us to Lockhart Phillips trackdays at $65 a day, I believe. Those days are usually weekdays-they don't run intereference with racing. $65 is a hell of a lot cheaper than the others, but that info is not widespread. Why? Why are folks hoarding information that could help the organization grow? Why not work on promoting that angle to newbs? They have the license paperwork done, get on the track a few days, here or there. Eventually, the bug will bite.
I get a little frustrated as there was a similar thread a year ago that dissolved into sidetracks as this one is. Is this a serious situation that will require cooperation to get the organization on the right track? Will CCS do something about it other than raise fees that just keep more people away? Are there riders included in the policy changing meetings? For instance, changing the GT format from 30 minutes to 5 laps. I read those newsletters which talk about a couple changes here or there, but then I have to read ALL the fine print to find out what was REALLY changed. OK, now I'm sidetracking.
One more idea; how about have a "newb corner pit", or some such thing, at the track where new guys know they can go to ask questions, get clarifications, etc., from one person that is designated to do that all weekend? That tutor either volunteers, gets barter value for some racing, or is outright paid by CCS. I went to Rick, Dean, and the Science Guy Brian at LCR with my questions during a weekend but they're busy too, racing. They helped quite a bit. Have a designated newb knocker that helps do that, answer their questions, hold their hands so to speak, introduce em around, you know what I mean?
I've pushed for a rider representative(s) to work with CCS, but that doesn't seem to be an idea anyone is interested in.
Also, as far as having a newbie contact( the idea has merit), would that be a volunteer or paid position? This is where it gets all mucked up in politics.
I think Dave is talking about the industry as a microcosm, wheras I'm talking about it as a whole. You can't have one without the other, and I think that's where stuff gets side tracked.
To really know whether the number of racers in total has plateaued, you would have to poll each racing organization, and find out whether racer attendance and number of entries for the entire industry has dropped.
As far as the industry as a whole is concerned, it's currently in a period of growth. You can't even get into an MSF course here without being on a waiting list for weeks or even months. The growth in female riders is exploding. All of this will benefit racers in the long run by adding to the pool of street riders and eventually club level racers. This helps vendors, service providers and creates exposure for the sport.
I take issue w/ SD on the "no support." Lets assume Yamaha makes $2k on each sportbike they sell (dealer makes $1-1.5k on top of that), maybe its a little more/less. How many R1/6's you need to sell to pay for $2m of track improvements at Laguna Seca? 1,000. Will 1,000 extra people really buy them b/c of Yamaha's commitment to MotoGP in the US?
In the end, racing is still a business for the manufacturers.
QuoteIn the end, racing is still a business for the manufacturers.
True...
And everybody else with a service or product to sell.
QuoteI take issue w/ SD on the "no support." Lets assume Yamaha makes $2k on each sportbike they sell (dealer makes $1-1.5k on top of that), maybe its a little more/less. How many R1/6's you need to sell to pay for $2m of track improvements at Laguna Seca? 1,000. Will 1,000 extra people really buy them b/c of Yamaha's commitment to MotoGP in the US?
In the end, racing is still a business for the manufacturers.
Wow!
Ok, first, how much does it cost to keep the lights on in a dealership? How about maintaining an inventory of parts? How about insurance to cover workman's comp, floor planning.
I'd bet that retail on a sportbike would allow a profit of $1000 MAYBE on a 600 and above bike...but profit needs to go toward maintaining a business. A business might be required to make 20% above the cost of everything just to keep the lights on. The margin on motorcycles is usually 8 to 12%.
The manufacture has to have reps, demo programs, meetings, schools, etc.
I have had the opportunity to work with a manufacturer and purchase motorcycles at the manufacturer cost. Wish it was a huge profit that they were making because it would have cost me less money.
QuoteI've pushed for a rider representative(s) to work with CCS, but that doesn't seem to be an idea anyone is interested in.
Yeah, that is interesting.
Who would it be?
One of the tricks would be experience.
The issues a racing organization takes on is quite a bit different than those of a rider, in general.
Number of entries, track costs, insurance, etc.
Racers with real long term investments in the racing industry are almost far and few between.
QuoteYou mind your language boy! ;)
Thank you! ;D
CCS SRD's allowed CCS to have more "licenses" in the form of SRD licenses...which at least serves to help CCS racers. It does allow for a fair opportunity to get a track rider into CCS racing easily...
QuoteYeah, that is interesting.
Who would it be?
How about 1 F40, 1 Expert, and one Am for each region?
Wasnt i reading something that new motorcycle salls for 2004 were at a million for the first time since the 70's.
I thought it said 60% were "Cruisers". Wich the dealer makes more $$ for on each cruiser they sell vs the latest Gixer/ninja/blade "dem crotch rocket thingys".
AMA and SPEED are pretty much Killing our sport without help from the politicans and lawers.
But dont worry, its almost acceptable to ride into work on a Harley nowadays.
QuoteWasnt i reading something that new motorcycle salls for 2004 were at a million for the first time since the 70's.
I thought it said 60% were "Cruisers". Wich the dealer makes more $$ for on each cruiser they sell vs the latest Gixer/ninja/blade "dem crotch rocket thingys".
AMA and SPEED are pretty much Killing our sport without help from the politicans and lawers.
But dont worry, its almost acceptable to ride into work on a Harley nowadays.
I live in Harley central (Milwaukee), and NOT all bikes in the Harley lots are Amreican made. :o
Yep, those are called "Metric Cruisers".
Still, motorcycle sales are approaching levels of the 70's while the population of the US has exceeded those levels of the 70's.
So...
You've got to look at the statistics correctly.
Still, they are up. Better than being down. At least a dealer can continue operating.