Anybody want to clue me in as to why CCS grids in FL are done by Pre entry and not points? I'm pretty sure I know why, I'm just dying to hear someone try to justify it.
It's just easier that way.
;)
All of CCS does it that way, to my knowledge.
I guess I just get pissed off at unnecessarily risky situations, created by a desire to "make it easier" at best and more likely fiscal considerations. A 53 bike grid at Homestead with guys in the first 5-10 rows who clearly have never been in a race, or just flat out slow, is nuts. The closing speeds in several of the fast turns were absurd. I've never been in a more dangerous race and the fact that it could be easily avoided blows my mind. For the record I like Henry and the crew that runs the N. FL region. I just think the CCS rule is bad, damn unsafe, and bordering on negligent.
I agree with you, but doing it by points doesn't clear up the problem either. For example, there are many times when a person with the most points is just average speedwise and some really fast guys come out last minute and are gridded last. Guys like an Eric Wood or Robert Jensen. You're going to have the same problem, it may not be AS bad, but still bad. Unfortunately, the only way to solve the problem is qualifying and I would be the biggest supporter of that, but CCS has outlined why it is impossible in previous threads and they are right. In the current configuration, it won't work.
get white plates if you don't want to race with someone who has never been in a race.
Or pay earlier, since we should all know the procedure by now if you have raced before.
I guess after all these years if I want to be up front I would send in my form as soon as they would take it.
there is a system so use it/get around it.
or do pro races that grid by qualifying then you can pay on the morning of the race :)
Quoteor do pro races that grid by qualifying then you can pay on the morning of the race :)
is that what you plan to do for Daytona cuz I don't see you pre-entered yet. :D
I haven't even sent in the license apps yet.
I just got an entry form for it today (didn't realize it was out)
where is the purse lisitng?? I hope it is not lousy since they lost chevy. I am counting on finishing 80th and still make my money back... :D
and I am sending in the CCS entry form tonight. I am doing a grand total of ONE race lol
they haven't released any purse info, but the track pays that, not the sponsor or series
so what do you think? daytona 200 kinda purse of FX kinda purse. get $1400 for 30th sounds real good to me
i'm gonna need a whole lot more than that to cover my Daytona costs.
I'm having wishful thinking thoughts and hoping for $1500 combined between SBK and FX
well I am trying to do it as cheap as possbile... Thank you bridgestone, my bills are not going to be that high, $1400 ought to cover it. so lets just hope the 200 has a purse like a 200 should.
QuoteAnybody want to clue me in as to why CCS grids in N. FL are done by Pre entry and not points? I'm pretty sure I know why, I'm just dying to hear someone try to justify it.
1. It's Florida Region not North Florida Region.
2. Rules are rules, learn to live with them. Grids are by entry date. My Moroso entry is already in the mail.
3. Got a problem with big grids and people who are newbie racers... get points and get a white plate.... I did.
So, you alluded that you knew why we grid by entry date... what's your GUESS?
Quote1. It's Florida Region not North Florida Region.
2. Rules are rules, learn to live with them. Grids are by entry date. My Moroso entry is already in the mail.
3. Got a problem with big grids and people who are newbie racers... get points and get a white plate.... I did.
So, you alluded that you knew why we grid by entry date... what's your GUESS?
1. No shit, thanks for the tip.
::)
2. Yeah well the rule is bad, and causes real saftey issues that effect me. Bad rules get changed when people speak up and force changes.
3. White plates are not going to change anything, they grid by the same system.
You seem to have trouble understanding the point so I'll state it again, in a different way.
In general faster riders will accumulate more points and be gridded at least near the front. With racers that finish further back or generally slower gridded in the later rows. It is safer, only a fool would argue otherwise. All the other orgs that I can think of realize this and use either points or qualifying to avoid the obvious safety risks of not sorting pace to some degree. It also is supposed to be competitive road racing, not a battle of the fax machine or office assistants.
As for why, the only reason I can think of for an Org to choose pre-entry grids given the above safety issues is money. Whether it's reduced staffing needs because "it's easier" or the large cash flow boost pre-entry's generate. As anybody in business knows getting paid in advance, sometimes months in advance in this case is the best of situations.
just curious...since your tag line says you have a WERA number I'm guessing you run with them...how do they grid?
ok.. if you KNOW your fast, you better PAY FIRST.. and it should not be a problem, cause your fast.. ;) It may be a way to get money up front, but they really don't "get" the money till after that race is run. Everyone has the opportunity to send in post dated checks to enter races at ANY time before the 1st race. Myself and others did, and it gets you an up front grid position. Also.. it was the 1st race of the season.. no points... How can you grid by points.. ;) No perfect way a doin things, but i like all my races on 1 day, and for now, the HD way is how i like it.
This has been hashed out over and over and over the last couple years.
Isnt gonna change.
Actually Henry may still deposit checks and CC after the race; due to issues with NSF and declined credit cards CCS runs everything upon arrival at the office.
Quotejust curious...since your tag line says you have a WERA number I'm guessing you run with them...how do they grid?
Points. Those who have no points are gridded in entry order behind those that do. First race of the year is by position previous year followed by entry point. Like I said WERA, CMRA, AHRMA, USGPRU, every org I can think of does points or qualifying, except CCS.
I believe that WERA grids by pre entry by points, then post entry. Similar to AHRMA.
Similar problems as gridding by entry.
Unless you're qualifying for a race, there will be people in the back that are faster, and people at the front that are slower. That's called racing.
Racing expert does usually mean that the skill level of the riders is at a level of safety that IS above that of the Novice racers. Accidents to happen. That's called risk, and life is full of it.
Unfamiliarity with a track or organization can breed a certain amount of discontent compared to the security blanket provided by previous experiences with other organizations.
As for enough people whining about grids in CCS...
The whining is about ten years old, maybe older, but it won't change. There is no easy way to do it, period, for CCS. It has not proven to be safer. Kind of like proving that a DOT, SNELL, or BSI helmet is better than another.
Racing IS considered to be somewhat dangerous. The alternatives are track days.
Quoteok.. if you KNOW your fast, you better PAY FIRST.. and it should not be a problem, cause your fast.. ;) It may be a way to get money up front, but they really don't "get" the money till after that race is run. Everyone has the opportunity to send in post dated checks to enter races at ANY time before the 1st race. Myself and others did, and it gets you an up front grid position. Also.. it was the 1st race of the season.. no points... How can you grid by points.. ;) No perfect way a doin things, but i like all my races on 1 day, and for now, the HD way is how i like it.
You know, this isn't about whether I'm fast or not. The sad thing is I'm really not. It's about a very dangerous situation that is caused by the way CCS chooses to grid their races. As for the post dated check thing, I'd be interested to hear if that's true and doubt it. Your "supa star" status may have something to do with you being able to do that. ;) The first race of the year is very easily handled through previous years finish position. Just think Greg, if you go to a WERA race this year the hard fought win you got at Jennings last year will actually mean something, and you will be assured a grid somewhere near the front.
I agree with you about the HD way. I much prefer the Saturday practice, Sunday race format and have found HD and staff to be professional and really nice folks. Most of the people in the pits have been the same, really good people. I guess that's why I got so torqued about it; the rule unnecessarily puts a lot of good people at risk. A change might be easier than you think.
I agree with fiptas, whats the big deal taking points into consideration when setting up the grids? I like that idea wheather or not you could say its safer or not. Why cant the guys that race the whole series and get more points be rewarded with better grid positions? It not some kind of super costly or hard thing to do. Simple really and would be an improvement over the current system. :o
QuoteI believe that WERA grids by pre entry by points, then post entry. Similar to AHRMA.
Similar problems as gridding by entry.
This is wrong as far as I know; I post entered at the track a couple of times and still was gridded according to points. I'll confirm though.
As for the rest, like everything in this thread, a bunch of BS weak rationalizations that never respond to the point. Everyone knows racing is dangerous. That has nothing to do with the issue. Why does an Org knowingly cause a very unsafe situation to happen? What is so compelling about pre-entry?
Anyway I'm done. It's clear that y'all lemmings are content with getting bent over and would rather sit around medicating each other's ass instead of doing something about it.
This goes toward the arguement that certain places are more unsafe than others.
Often, there are no facts to back it.
Starts, by themselves, are probably the most dangerous opportunity on a racing surface.
Case in point, after all these years, my biggest start incident that I was involved in was during an AMA Pro road race. That has qualifying. That's a whole lot of races that I can use to generalize upon.
The organizations that you used as examples don't put on as many races as CCS.
And as a guy that races with ARHMA with an occasional frequency...
Because the guy won the championship, it doesn't make him fast. When you're dodging him when he takes an odd line going into turn one at Daytona... AHRMA has had some pretty good incidents involving riders that didn't have points coming from the back getting collected by riders up front that had points from the previous season.
QuoteAs for the post dated check thing, I'd be interested to hear if that's true and doubt it. Your "supa star" status may have something to do with you being able to do that. ;)
Well I'm only a superstar in my own mind, and I can attest that this is the way Henry does things, I rely on it since I usually don't have the money put aside til the race weekend. Hell, Henry was still holding on to a check from last September's cancelled race and didn't deposit it til this week after I ran Homestead. But you can give him a call and he'll tell you the same :P
gridding by point is not fair either because unless I follow the series seriously and faithfully, I would not be able to get a front row position no matter how fast I am or how slow the others are.
technically if you are really fast from the previous year and has high finishing positions you should be moved to expert and the whole field would probably be gridded by entry anyway for the first race.
and the only people who did not bump up to expert were probably not fast enough so again you will have slow people gridded up front by points and faster new comers gridded by entry behind the slow 2nd year novices.
so what does the point system solve?
Truthfully if you have a good understanding of how racing should work:
1. race is not won on the first lap, if you are fast, and can't get a good clean start.,then get by them after the start,
2. track is pretty wide, grid properly, aim for spaces between the people in front of you, and give yourself more space.
3. since you know there are 30 other people trying to get a good start, and they are infront of you, then it is your responsibility to control your actions so you wouldn't run into anyone.
If you want to argue about it not being fair, I wouldn't agree more. If you want to say it is not safe...
to be able to safely pass anyone is a racing skill itself. And you should have a good handle on it. Especially in the novice ranks where skill differences varies widely.
if you are a fast novice and gridded upfront, you will most likely lap people later in the race. So you will have to face that anyway and be able to deal with it.
I don't think a part of race org's safety concerns is whether or not people can safely pass each other. I don't know what to say, I have had my problems with passing slow riders, but I can't ask the race orgs to not let slow riders ride, they won't do it anyway.
so get a white plate and it would be a lot better. still have incidents but you are generalizing stead of talking about specific incidents.
I realize that time constraints dont allow for qualifying for every race, but I dont see why racers couldnt be gridded according to the best lap time during a single consolidated qualifying session held at the beginning of the day or their best practice lap time. ???
We went through this before. How would you handle people with multiple bikes? Should you get gridded in your 600 race according to the lap times you do on your 1000? What about if you crash/break at the beggining of the session?
The real truth here is that you will never make everyone happy, no matter how much you try!
QuoteI realize that time constraints dont allow for qualifying for every race, but I dont see why racers couldnt be gridded according to the best lap time during a single consolidated qualifying session held at the beginning of the day or their best practice lap time. ???
qualifying would not be possible for all classes because the logistics of a CCS weekend cann't possbile make it fair. They don't have the man power to check the machines... etc... so they make it EX ULGP only which means every machine is legal.
although it would be nice to see AM ULGP to be gridded by qualifying too. It is the only AM event that pays purse and have higher entry fees (GT's don't count anymore because its not paying cash) and fair gridding would be more important and it wouldn't be any harder to enforce than EX ULGP.
I am sure the AM's would love it. I guess they can't spare another 15 minutes.
Eliminate some classes and make the races longer. Six lap sprints can be won from the front in the first lap, add more time to the races and spread the field out. Edgar weren't you saying how close the 600 is to the 1000 at most tracks, excluding RA and 'Tona? If we really want qualifying for all races there would need to be some self-regulation involved. I'm all for grids done alphabetically, or heck make it a lottery, buck a ball and the proceeds go to Wegman or RRAF. Really make it interesting go back to a Lemans style start, I can haul ass in my Sidi's, just don't ask what I was running from.
Quote I'm all for grids done alphabetically,
waaaaaa??? I always be on the last row of the last wave ;D
QuoteEliminate some classes and make the races longer
That was my idea with more purse paying classes. Might actually make us a bit more marketable to our sponsors and to the outside.
QuoteThat was my idea with more purse paying classes. Might actually make us a bit more marketable to our sponsors and to the outside.
when they extended the sprints from 7 laps to 8 laps there were plenty who complained that 8 laps are too long. I don't think CCS want to take a gamble at loosing entries/total revnues if they extend the races and loose a few classes.
or more people would race the GT's but they don't
Dan,according to your own words you are not a front runner,so if they gridded by points you would still be at the back of the grid so what is your point???And as far as calling me or anyone else who feels the system they have is the best possible given the time and money the ccs has, a lemming and an ass medicator is uncalled for.For someone who is new to the sport you sure know how to piss alot of people off just because they don't agree with you
I hate to be in the same race with people think gridding slower riders in front will cause safety problems...
I did question the gridding system years ago, but I just felt it was unfair and later realized that there is really no "better" solution.
and now I have a white plate and I wouldn't complain about getting gridded in the back. I rather qualify anyway.
Quotewaaaaaa??? I always be on the last row of the last wave ;D
Unless there was a family of Ziffles... ::) ;) ;D
QuoteUnless there was a family of Ziffles... ::) ;) ;D
actually there are maybe 5 -10 that are after me. but around here if not deadlast, on the last row...
I always thought it would be cool just to be deadlast on any list... at least there is no guess work
sucks when I go to some courth though!!! >:(
QuoteDan,according to your own words you are not a front runner,so if they gridded by points you would still be at the back of the grid so what is your point???And as far as calling me or anyone else who feels the system they have is the best possible given the time and money the ccs has, a lemming and an ass medicator is uncalled for.For someone who is new to the sport you sure know how to piss alot of people off just because they don't agree with you
I raced three times with CCS last year along with a full season with WERA. MWSS and MWSBK I finished between 7th and 13th starting from the back in every race. This past Sunday I was gridded 48th or so out of 53 bikes and finished 12th. I'm going from memory so that may be off a little but it was row 13 and 16 respectively. At the ROC where was a modern scoring system my times (Mid 1:34) put me 7th fastest of the Novice 600's. I'm not going to get on the box but I would like to at least be running with the front pack instead of dodging guys both on and off their bikes. But I guess to do that I'm have to start stroking checks, as CCS doesn't grid based on competitive results, hard work, or ability.
See my above posts, because I'm sick of saying it, but anyone who argues that NOT sorting grids by points or qualifying, on the whole, isn't less safe is an idiot. It's common sense. Imagine if the AMA SBK series started all the privateers up front and made the factory guys come through from behind. They are the most skilled racers in the country and they still routinely take out lappers coming through because of the dangers of the closing speeds and disparity in lines. I had to pass 30+ bikes to finish 12th and more than a few of those passes got hairy because of erratic riding or closing speed. I didn't take anyone out or run anyone off, just to get to the front, and I won't because my first responsibility is to the safety of the riders around me. It would be nice if the org running the events would have the same concern for our safety.
My comments though harsh, convey the contempt I would think every racer would feel upon realizing, that such a fundamental (I think Super Dave said) "most dangerous" part of racing, is made much more so by an unnecessary and bad system. A system that until someone states a convincing reason otherwise I suspect is motivated by money.
Interesting discussion, and one that will be dabated until the end of the ages.
If you think about it for safety, as some might suggest, the faster riders ought to be up front, than you would grid by fastest time in practice, simply because CCS does not have the time to grid by qualifying under it's present configuration. IF...and I mean if you were to have qualifying, this would require more time out of the scheduled weekend, which would mean less classes and higher costs. There's already alot of bellyaching about costs, but simple math suggests that this would mean you'd have to bear that financial burden. Consider the fact that $10 extra per class will get some racer's undies in a bundle, and you can see why CCS is reluctant to make any changes.
I really see this as a Rat's Nest, and no one likes poison.. ::)
QuoteInteresting discussion, and one that will be dabated until the end of the ages.
If you think about it for safety, as some might suggest, the faster riders ought to be up front, than you would grid by fastest time in practice, simply because CCS does not have the time to grid by qualifying under it's present configuration. IF...and I mean if you were to have qualifying, this would require more time out of the scheduled weekend, which would mean less classes and higher costs. There's already alot of bellyaching about costs, but simple math suggests that this would mean you'd have to bear that financial burden. Consider the fact that $10 extra per class will get some racer's undies in a bundle, and you can see why CCS is reluctant to make any changes.
I really see this as a Rat's Nest, and no one likes poison.. ::)
I understand it's a sore spot. As any bad rule is. Of course they could just use the points they already track to award the riders who have loyally shown up and spent money supporting vendors and the event and finished well staying upright. Just think under CCS rules someone could be gridded up front, crash their brains out, take out other riders, DNF and continue to be gridded up front ALL YEAR LONG. WTF???? What kind of system rewards that type of behavior/judgment? The CCS one does.
Thanks BTW for at least responding to the actual issue instead of BS rationalizations and insults.
QuoteInteresting discussion, and one that will be dabated until the end of the ages.
If you think about it for safety, as some might suggest, the faster riders ought to be up front, than you would grid by fastest time in practice, simply because CCS does not have the time to grid by qualifying under it's present configuration. IF...and I mean if you were to have qualifying, this would require more time out of the scheduled weekend, which would mean less classes and higher costs. There's already alot of bellyaching about costs, but simple math suggests that this would mean you'd have to bear that financial burden. Consider the fact that $10 extra per class will get some racer's undies in a bundle, and you can see why CCS is reluctant to make any changes.
[\quote]
Yep. Just think is CCS went to qualifying everyone. Basically we'd end up with 4-5 classes for both am and expert. Then there would be experts bitchign about qualifying with amateurs and those sessions would need to be split. Then the UL guys will want to qualify separate from HW, MW and LW. Next thing you know, it would be 8-10 practice, 10-1 qualifying 1-3 sorting it out and setting up grids and 3-4:30 for races. Watch entry fees skyrocket as the number of riders drops from 200-300 per event (BHF for an example) to 50-100.
Quotewaaaaaa??? I always be on the last row of the last wave ;D
Not if it went in reverse alphabetical order.:D:D