Motorcycle Racing Forum

Its time for me to get a new helmet....any suggestions from some of you guys that have taken some hits to the noggin?

Arai Corsair

It depends on the shape of your noggin. Arai fits the best
for me, but you schould try on several top shelf helmets to find the one that fits you.

Arai Corsair, or an old RX-7... either way, Arai is best in my opinion.  I've also owned Shoei helmets in the past, and the coconut protection was as good, just not as good as arai in the fit/comfort department.

I have had Arai and Shoei and really like the Shoei best. The Arai has some great features and vents but the view is not as good(the eyebrow vents are in my line of sight) as the Shoei for my tuck, head shape, bike, etc so it blocks some view which I hate. Be sure to try helemt on and get on bike in tucked position.

 :o Go with an OGK, You will love it.  Lighter then Corsair but just as strong

I've raced in AGV, Bieffe, Bell, Arai, and Suomy over the years.  

Shoei's don't fit my head right, and even within a line, like Arai, Bieffe, and Suomy, certain helmets have certain shapes.

Most Arai's fit me very well.  The Suomy Spec1R is great for me.

Now....

DOT and SNELL standards were developed to give helmets some kind of rating system.

The BSI standard is an actual motorcycle helmet standard, where the previously mentioned standards were developed for car racing.  Yeah, they have been revised over the years, but the BSI standard has some things that make it unique.

First, BSI has an impact test to test for how the helmet works on those multiple glancing bounces that we have when we're pounding the tarmac.  

Additionally, to pass the BSI standard, helmets from each lot must be tested.  If one doesn't pass, the batch is scrapped.  SNELL and DOT...if you pass, all your lots pass.

Just like anything, this isn't with controversy.  Arai refuses to do BSI.  Not that they wouldn't meet the standard, but it's just not what they want to do.

I think the reality is that just about any helmet out there with a reasonable price tag is gonna save your head.  Fittment has to be a really big issue.  If it won't stay on your head, it's not going to do it's job.  Better helmets have better shield systems and have better distribution.  

Have fun!

See what fits your head best.

Then:  SUOMY.

I really like the Shark RSR.  It's very light and works extremely well.  My last crash got both sides of the helmet (lots of damage).  I didn't even have a headache.  The viewport also incredible compared to my Shoeis.

Plus, the Sharks look really cool and all the World guys are wearing them.  :D

-Brian

Get one of those cool hankies. I hear the Harley guys like 'em just fine. :o ;D

What Dave said. Look at the ratings and find what fits your head. A helmet must fit SNUG. Talk to people who have worn some of the brands/models you're considering, some are noisier than others. Some chin straps hit in a slightly different place. Comfort and fit are key.

Soumy Spec 1R
Love it!!!!!!!

Suomy!
 You wanted advice from crash test dummies?  I'm your guy.  I've killed a dozen helmets over the years.  Haven't been knocked out once since my switch to Suomy, and that would include my worst-ever crash, a 70 mph face plant into asphalt after the bike endo'ed over thr front.
That Suomy helmets have saved my life a few times is beyond question.  I won't wear anything else.

I know some people shun them but HJC!! I have tried on about every helmet out there and the HJC was the only one that fit just right. And no price is not a reason, if the HJC was 300.00 I would still go that direction. Besides all my strength concerns were laid to rest at Barber when I highsided at high speed and was flung down the track landing on the back side of my head. I walked away with only minor scrapes and bruises. The helmet held up great with no affectd&@@s (*to 09 me :P  What was I talking about ;)

I don't know about no Arai, Shoei, or Suomy but I will tell you that OGK is really loud and suck's ass.

QuoteI don't know about no Arai, Shoei, or Suomy but I will tell you that OGK is really loud and suck's ass.

     Super_Dive here.  Back in the beginning, when I was on an FZ750 I had a Vetter helmet.  One year later,  Eddie Vetter and Pearl Jam released "10".  I was pulling wheelies and showing off for chicks and kept 'running out of room'.   I ended up in quite a few front yards and that Vetter helmet just kept on delivering.  
     Another year later I got a Zx-7 and it had some good 'geometry' and it was all tight but I was still learning how to ride so I pitched that thing down the road several times.  Score another one for the Vetter, but by now you could see all the way through to my skull so I opted to get a new Shoei.  I wore it for several years and then started racing on it.  The s-rads where out by now and my ole 91 zx-7 just couldn't hang so I twisted the throttle hard and highsided myself out of the race.  It was the first race and my first totalled motorcycle.  The thing I noticed first was my geometry was all screwed up.  My left leg was all shorter than my right.  From the woods I heard SuperDave saying, "Matt, you should really have your geometry checked out."  I think the ambulance guy agreed and they took me off.  
      "Your heel bone is in seven pieces," they said.
      "But what about my geometry?", I replied.
      "Oh.......well, that is off pretty bad too"
      "What about my bike?"
      They told me SuperDave had confiscated it and was saving it for WERA vintage 7.
      The Shoei still had good geometry albeit a few scratches so I raced it until 1999 when I got an FM.
Second day my girlfriend opened the back door of the truck and I heard that silly 'boink' noise that meant my new helmet just had it's geometry all messed with.  I found the local post office and shipped it straight to SuperDave.  He checked it out and said it was still in the "ballpark".
       So anyway, once I moved up to Arai and Suomy I never looked back.  Geometrically speaking, of course.  I find that their geometry is A+!

Thanks,
Super_Dive

Arai has a helmet for just about every head shape and the quality is second to none. Your best bet is to go to your local cycle shop and check to see which helmet fits you best. Arai also has different thickness cheek pads in case the helmet doesn't fit absolutely perfect. Check'em out!

Pierre – What's up?! It's you '03 crash buddy – Michael Firca

As for helmets, here's my personal experience. . .

Back in '99 I got caught up in a major wreck on the front straight at Blackhawk Farms. Right at the start/finish line at about 150mph two guys literally get together and it's bikes and bodies everywhere! Almost instantly I go over the bars running over a bike! Head first into the pavement (followed by a nice rag doll impression, a few cartwheels and then I believe a couple of summersaults) with an Arai RX7. I actually wore a dime sized hole in the chin portion and cracked the helmet in many places and scuffed about 70% of the shell. I was out cold for 20 minutes and then choppered to the trauma center in Rockford. Bottom line? I was at home enjoying my Vicodin THAT EVENING! Thank you Arai!

And now for our wreck in 2003. Last lap, final turn and we get together because a green pea cuts us off. I think the speed is probably around 60 - 70mph (?) Either way here's the bottom line – I don't remember anything. In fact, I don't remember the next two weeks! After another chopper ride to Rockford I was in a coma for a week and the trauma center for 3 weeks after that. A few months of rehab and finally I realize "Hmmm, I probably should start wearing pants.  ;) " Anyway, the helmet I wore that day was an HJC AC-10 'King Mingus'. One crack/large scuff on the right side rear. You couldn't pay me to wear another HJC.

You can tell me it was the way I fell or how I hit my head. I'm gonna tell anyone that will listen "I ONLY wear ARAI!" Based on my experience I would only consider high line lids (Arai, Shoei, etc) that have a reputation of safety and quality. Fitment is very important too. Very snug without discomfort is good and your overall vision is an obvious too. Do your own research because you're the one depending on it's features and function. Lastly, I still have both helmets if you ever want to look them over.

I'm objective.

45 weekends a year, I make my living by watching people crash in many forms of motorsports with many different helmets.

I see what I see and I know what I know.

Spend the money - get an Arai.

Pierre,
Greetings.  I've got the obligatory 2 cents, can I play?  Been riding since 1989, racing since 2003.  I only wear Shoei.  My first helmet fit really well, a GRV, G-2.  I had a pleasant get together with a car in 1990, many things broke.....But my head was fine.  The helmet was a showcase after that crash!  
Never trusted another helmet.  
Latest helmet, X-SP II, did a nice job keeping my melon together up at BHF this past September.   (Race at Blackhawk, & get a helo ride with your paid admission!)  I took a decent smack to the noggin, & once again Shoei saved the day.......And my riding "career".
The fit got me interested, the protection keeps me hooked.
But one last note, my sponsor (wife) uses Arai.  It fits her head really well.....And I know she's protected.  
My advice:
Find an Arai or Shoei that will fit your head perfectly, then spend the money.
Cheers,

Those who advise to buy only Arai or Shoei obvoiusly don't know the story on Suomy lids.  The Suomy is tested to the tougher British standard.  It is bag molded to get the lightest, strongest outer shell possible.  Suomy lids are batch tested.  When a batch is run, several lids are destructively tested.  If one fails, the whole batch is scrapped.  To my knowledge, Shoei and Arai don't do that.  Also, the helmets worn by Suomy's sponsored pros are stock, off the production line pieces, just like any customer can buy.  This is a point of pride with Suomy.
Bottom line?  Shoei and Arai are very good helmets, and have been the standard for years, but now Suomy is probably even a bit better.

I didn't know the story on Suomy helmets.
Please pardon my prejudice.

check here for some good info on helmets and other cycle gear...they have a section that explains all the helmet rating standards....

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/motorcycle-helmets.htm

QuoteI didn't know the story on Suomy helmets.
Please pardon my prejudice.

;)
Hey!  Gotta plug hard for the sponsor!  Recite that spiel!  I learned all those things by watching the DVD that came with my sponsorship kit.  An hour of helmet building info! :o  
They really ARE awesome lids.  I couldn't believe that anything so light could really protect my head in a big crash, but by God they have, and on more than one occasion.  At this point, I won't wear anything else.

Guys - Thanks for all the great info....K3, you made a great point about Suomy...and I have NO problems spending the cash on safty gear.  I think I'm going to check out the Suomy helmets!! (and then Arai if Suomy doenst fit me)

thanks again!

My pleasure.  Off the top of my head, I know that Corse Superbikes has them in Milwaukee, and Superbike Italia carries them in Illinois.
Italian helmet, Italian bikes....  Go figure!

http://www.suomy-usa.com/

And as a bonus, the paint and graphics are the nicest in the business!

I'll second OGK....

The Arai's just don't seem to fit my noggin.... neither do the Suomy's....  So, I tried an OGK.  

I really like the venting... best in the business if you ask me...

They are a little on the heavy side though and the shield mechanisim is needlessly complicated.

They are also BSI rated.

Arai's fit my skull perfect.  
Soumi and Shoei don't fit and press uncomfortably into my forehead.  I think the Shoei's and Soumi's have the same 'fit'

Arai for me 8)

QuoteArai's fit my skull perfect.  
Soumi and Shoei don't fit and press uncomfortably into my forehead.  I think the Shoei's and Soumi's have the same 'fit'

Arai for me 8)

Stunters wear helmets?  ;D

Hey Pierre - if you are looking for excellent protection, *and* low/no fogging, then I would recommend Suomy.  Had an Arai Quantum and liked the fit, but it fogged a bit on cold days.  I heard the Suomy was very good on that front, so after I trashed the Arai, I tried the Suomy and it is excellent.  Next helmet will be another one - Spec 1R.

Suomy fit...

There are two completely differnt helmets there.

The Gunwind's have a "Shoei" fit.

The Spec1R's have an "Arai" fit.

Suomy's are available through any dealer via Parts Unlimited, so they are easy to get.

QuoteSuomy fit...

The Spec1R's have an "Arai" fit.

Hmmm, the Spec-1R has an Arai fit? The Max Biaggi and Ruben Xaus are super hot! Although, the Arai Wraith RX-7 is awesome looking too! Damn it Pierre, I didn't need to spend money on a new helmet. . . although I could use a back up.  ;D

You'll be OK with any of the high line lids. See you this season!

I just bought my second suomy spec-1r.  Arai comfort without the steep price.  Has my vote.  Lowest price I found thus far was $345.  Search ebay for the "7948530266".  Send them a note and see if they can give you a racer discount.

-brent

Those pimping the Suomy helmets are a little off in the details surrounding BSI testing and the history of crash helmet standards. Here's some pertinent links:

http://www.smf.org/articles/mcomp2.html

http://www.smf.org/articles/helmet_development.html

http://www.suomy-usa.com/faqs.htm

http://www.sport-touring.net/cgi-bin/msgboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=24109;hl=snell


As a brief summary, BSI impact test eneriges are not as severe as in Snell impact tests, and do not include an edge-anvil(curbstone) test. This is apparently a debatable issue, but Ed Becker of Snell says that there is no evidence of Snell approved helmets being less effective at lower impact energies or at the impact energies that BSI utilizes.

The "glancing blows" BSI performs what is termed an oblique test, which attempts to measure "tangential" forces, that may occur by adhesion of a helmet to a surface under simultaneous impact. The science behind these tests and the nature of those injuries appears to be the most hypothetical of any current protocols, with the least amount of practical data for it's implementation.

As mentioned,  BSI performs batch testing prior to release, which does test greater numbers of total helmets of around .5-1%, but still allows for retesting and approval of a batch similar to Snell procedures if a failure occurs. Snell performs quality assurance testing with random samples of off-the-shelf helmets with numbers determined by sticker sales with numbers around .05%.

A BSI standard was developed for motoryccle helmets before the Snell Foundation developed a similar protocol, but both have been heavily revised since the inception of either, and that is rather worthless info regarding current testing procedures, as both use a specific standard for motorcycling helmets.

The research surrounding crash helmets and head trauma has been minimal, and there are no current large-scale efforts looking into any of the issues surrounding performance and needs, which is a shame.

True.

But the fact remains that the Snell stuff was really designed around car racing, not for motorcycles.  Remember, Mr Snell was a car racer.

BSI tries to address those issues.  It doesn't mean that a Snell helmet is better or a BSI one is worse.

However, the batch testing does remain in BSI....

But as per the Suomy link you provided....

"In one example, only 16 helmets were tested of an approximate 400,000 helmets sold of one particular manufacturer in 2001 (Source . Ed Becker, Executive Director Snell Memorial Foundation: http://www.smf.org/)"

Compared to "5 for a production batch of 500, 13 for a batch of 501-1,200 and 20 for batches of 1,201-2000. Each production batch must be of the same model. Only after each of the helmets have passed a battery of specified tests are the BSI serialized decals then released for that specific batch and in that specific quantity"

QuoteBut the fact remains that the Snell stuff was really designed around car racing, not for motorcycles. ÊRemember, Mr Snell was a car racer.

Just for everyone still reading this.

Snell has different standards or different helmet usage (and different tests). They have different motorcycle and car (race) standards.

They have different standards for bicycles, horseback riding, harness racing, mopeds, motorcycles, non motorized activities (skateboard etc), recreational skiing/snowboarding, skiing, automotive sports and karting.

see http://www.smf.org/ , click on Snell standards.

Personally, I would try on many different helmets (from major manufacturers) and pick the one that I like the fit and finish the best.

QuoteTrue.

However, the batch testing does remain in BSI....

But as per the Suomy link you provided....

"In one example, only 16 helmets were tested of an approximate 400,000 helmets sold of one particular manufacturer in 2001 (Source . Ed Becker, Executive Director Snell Memorial Foundation: http://www.smf.org/)"

Compared to "5 for a production batch of 500, 13 for a batch of 501-1,200 and 20 for batches of 1,201-2000. Each production batch must be of the same model. Only after each of the helmets have passed a battery of specified tests are the BSI serialized decals then released for that specific batch and in that specific quantity"

In the last link I posted, I specifically asked Ed Becker about that quote, which he stated as categorically WRONG.

Let's face it, no company sold 400,000 snell-stickered helmets in the US 2001 to begin with, Becker says the numbers are closer to 1 out of every 2000 helmets sold. This is still a much smaller number than BSI, however not nearly as few as Marlin likes to imply.

I would like to see stricter guidelines for quality control as a whole, because it is unfathomable that the DOT random testing is still catching any kind of performance or labeling  failures each year. As described by Becker, he says that he hasn't seen any major performance failures, and doesn't seem to view it as a large issue at this point. In a discussion with a BSI rep, I got a similar impression.

http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:ZA1d6Uv208AJ:www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss218/218_2004.pdf+dot+helmet+test+2004&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 OK I'm going to give my idea to anybody that may implement it. Most of you have ruined a helmet and remember the BONK it gave you. When the shell hits the ground, BONK, and unless your brain is attached to the inside of your skull tighter than the styrofoam crushing, no helmet is going to help. I personally have bonked too many times and have been told each succsesion will multiply the size of the concussion. OK are ya with me so far. Now look at the vents on an Arai. Average about 1"wide plastic scoops. I wish a top dollar helmet company would put some kind of cheap lumps like that all over to act as a crush sleeve before it ever gets to the shell.  I really think it would save alot of concussions and unconscious rides in ambulances.
 PS: last KO was in a Shoei, I now have an Arai and like it alot better.
Back to the testing debate.

What I'm trying to figure out is how you can really compare one helmet brand to another.  Yeah, they pass certain levels of certifications and such, but you don't crash the same way every time, so therefore saying brand X is superior to brand Y because brand Y broke when I crashed and X didn't doesn't make sense.  Honestly, does it really matter if it's a Shoei, Arai, Suomy, ect.?  As long as it fits right, and it has pass certain certifications, nothing else really matters.

Why haven't they put an "explosive foam" or something simliar that will blow the helmet up with foam or gel or something upon impact?  Kinda like an airbag inside a helmet, but it uses foam or gel.    Wonder if that would work  ???  

I think Brian hit it on the head...LOL...

"Personally, I would try on many different helmets (from major manufacturers) and pick the one that I like the fit and finish the best."

In this day and age, you can make new standards all day long.

I had this discussion with the people at Vanson.  They related that there are standards, but sometimes, those standards don't relate based on one's experiences.  Those standards sometimes just end up costing money while not necessarily helping the product overall.

I'm sure we can think of ways on both sides where that works and doesn't.

Anyway, I'll defer to Brian.

I've been whacked on the ground a couple of times over all these years.

I've seen stars and I have been knocked out.  But the helmet did it's job.  Nothing is perfect.

QuoteI had this discussion with the people at Vanson.  They related that there are standards, but sometimes, those standards don't relate based on one's experiences.  Those standards sometimes just end up costing money while not necessarily helping the product overall.

Now that's bs from a company that wants to sell cheap armor. They can't tell how it doesnt relate to anoyone's experiences or how a non-standardized option relates better, at least with any kind of proof.

Hope this doesn't incite or toss fuel on a fire but.... Anyone have experience with X-Lite and Shark helmets?

Both have were used by WSBK riders this past year (but that could have been one of those Shoei tricks where the graphics you see on a professional racer doesn't necesarily match the model helmet sold to the general public withthe same graphics - the DuHammel model for example) so I'm presuming they're both pretty good.

I've heard really good first hand advice about the X-Lite being really quite and light weight.

The Shark interests me because of it's looks and meeting the BSI stds.

QuoteNow that's bs from a company that wants to sell cheap armor. They can't tell how it doesnt relate to anoyone's experiences or how a non-standardized option relates better, at least with any kind of proof.

Talk to Alexa about their stuff.

Most of the privateer AMA guys are wearing Vanson because of protection and availability.  Go up a rung, and you're talking about contracts and money.  It's not what you can buy from those companies.

Standards are often not set by the people that actually have things in use.  What standard would you use?  Tell me the handful of individuals that have real experience with road racing crashes?  It's a double edged sword.  

Case in point.

Arai.

New or different standards.  I've raced with Arai's and crashed them to pieces.  Snell is good.  So is DOT.  Now BSI enters the picture.  Arai doesn't want to use the BSI standard, read they don't see the value in paying for another standard, so are they bad or do they have poor protection?

Man, I've taken some AWFUL licks in my Vansons, and always faired better than I had any right to expect.  If that's BS, I'll wear it all day....

QuoteHope this doesn't incite or toss fuel on a fire but.... Anyone have experience with X-Lite and Shark helmets?

Both have were used by WSBK riders this past year (but that could have been one of those Shoei tricks where the graphics you see on a professional racer doesn't necesarily match the model helmet sold to the general public withthe same graphics - the DuHammel model for example) so I'm presuming they're both pretty good.

I've heard really good first hand advice about the X-Lite being really quite and light weight.

The Shark interests me because of it's looks and meeting the BSI stds.

Miguel likes Shark now too.

http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=11494

Just read that myself.

QuoteStandards are often not set by the people that actually have things in use.  What standard would you use? Tell me the handful of individuals that have real experience with road racing crashes?  It's a double edged sword.  

While that seems logical, very few people will actually know how to properly interpret the actual forces at work. There's an expression in the fitness industry that holds very true, never ask a bodybuilder how to get big, you will never get the right answer.

That's not say we can't interpret anecdotal damage to a degree, whether its an injury or damage to the gear, its just to say that our assumptions can be way off and only validated through what amounts to limited experience.

As far as Arai, the main thng they advertise about Snell approval is that all of their helmets in North America are Snell approved, rather than any models that are just DOT approved. Considering the requirements of both Snell and ECE22/05, BSI wouldn't hold much extra value in other markets if their helmets carried the both labels, as Snell impact requirements surpass BSI and ECE22/05 specifies the same oblique requireemnts.

Hmmm... I din't realize the Shark is a French product.  I'm still upset with the French.

Hell, I still boycott anything by Toshiba because of their secret sale of heavy machinery to the USSR back in 1986.

That machinery (long with the software from a Dutch or Swedish company whose name I forget right now) enabled the USSR to machine submarine screws from a single chunk of steel.  They couldn't do that before and it made things a hell of a lot unsafer for us in the undersea war.

Fo the younger among us and the uninitiated, during the cold war, things raged pretty hot for the sub services.  Read The Hunt for Red October
That cat and mouse stuff was REAL.  We even fired upon one another from time to time.

Anyway, I may drop Shark from consideration.

Any testimonies about the X-Lite?

One ping...one ping only...

Hey.... Isn't that what Don was saying under his helmet as K3 want by? ;D

Quote.

Any testimonies about the X-Lite?

It's Italian. Remember Moussolini?
 ;D

After reading this thread over the last week and looking at everyones attached links and using google to get my own info all I can say is this. Yikes! Way too many points of view and opinions!     ???    ;D    From what I have seen, read, heard and experienced buy an Arai or a Shoei. I'm not saying the other makers are bad but these two seem to have the most positive reviews overall. Me spending my money again? Arai!  ;D

QuoteOne ping...one ping only...

LOL!!!

I see you watched the same movie I did (third time now).  

Dawn  

<  Sean Connery was the sexiest in that movie IMO >   ;D

Apparently, now Miguel likes the same helmet I use.  Or they are just paying him to like it. ::)

-Brian

QuoteApparently, now Miguel likes the same helmet I use.  Or they are just paying him to like it. ::)

-Brian

I don't know about the helmet itself, but he seems tike the fact they are paying him to wear it.

QuoteIt's Italian. Remember Moussolini? ;D

Yeah....  And I also remember Tojo and the Emperor Hirohito.  What exactly is your point ???  Are you suggesting that it's only justifiable to direct one's displeasure at a specific individual and not a company, government or the instruments that extend a disagreeable policy?

Suomy.  Donny, the compitetion rep for Suomy, has been helping get my novel into the hands of people who might do it some good.  Love the product, love the protection, love the people.  Suomy.

QuoteYeah....  And I also remember Tojo and the Emperor Hirohito.  What exactly is your point ???  Are you suggesting that it's only justifiable to direct one's displeasure at a specific individual and not a company, government or the instruments that extend a disagreeable policy?

My point is that if you look back, or even presently, you will eventually be able to find many issues of disagreement with just about any country or culture anywhere. I don't buy German products because they slaughtered Jews, I don't buy Japanese produsts because they bombed Pearl Harbor and dumped Toyota Camrys over here, I won't buy Chinese goods because they're communists, I won't buy Pakistani goods because they harbor terrorists, etc, etc. Then you find out other cultures feel the same way about you. Woops.

Is it April yet?  You guys are really starting to worry me.

QuoteMy point is that if you look back, or even presently, you will eventually be able to find many issues of disagreement with just about any country or culture anywhere. I don't buy German products because they slaughtered Jews, I don't buy Japanese produsts because they bombed Pearl Harbor and dumped Toyota Camrys over here, I won't buy Chinese goods because they're communists, I won't buy Pakistani goods because they harbor terrorists, etc, etc. Then you find out other cultures feel the same way about you. Woops.

I've been away for a bit.  I'll try to keep my response relatively light, friendly and brief.  This is an interesting topic for a separate thread.  Maybe something titled "Metaethics & Epistemology".  That ought to either draw the curious or chase away the riff raff ;)

The premise that I have drawn from your statement is that moral/ethical lines can never be drawn out of concern that others may have their own ethical/moral lines that may be used against you (not you literally).  I reject that idea.  Under the law of identity, there are absolutes.  While not everything is black and white, there are some areas of clear right and wrong, good and bad.  Ethically speaking that is.

Ethical/moral beliefs have to stand on their own.  The decision to follow/act on one's ethical/moral beliefs should (hopefully) not be based on a fear of retribution.  When that is the case, that person has no true moral compass.  That person is behaving illogically because he/she is subordinating a lower value for a higher value.  I am here presuming the ethical/moral belief to have the higher value because it is an ethical/moral belief.  Otherwise, it's just another fact or opinion in one's mind.

While I joke around in my recent disdain for the French and the choice to boycott their products (Michelin & BF Goodrich tires; Hennessy cognac; Maybelline & L'Oreal cosmetics; Nissan automobiles; Dannon yogurt, blah, blah, blah), it is fair and proper to use the instruments that give support to a government or a policy to express opposition to that government or policy.  Hence the boycott of businesses that conducted business in South Africa (in the past) or the boycotting of Japanese companies because of the Japanese government's policy on whaling.

QuoteI've been away for a bit.  I'll try to keep my response relatively light, friendly and brief.  This is an interesting topic for a separate thread.  Maybe something titled "Metaethics & Epistemology".  That ought to either draw the curious or chase away the riff raff ;)

The premise that I have drawn from your statement is that moral/ethical lines can never be drawn out of concern that others may have their own ethical/moral lines that may be used against you (not you literally).  I reject that idea.  Under the law of identity, there are absolutes.  While not everything is black and white, there are some areas of clear right and wrong, good and bad.  Ethically speaking that is.

Ethical/moral beliefs have to stand on their own.  The decision to follow/act on one's ethical/moral beliefs should (hopefully) not be based on a fear of retribution.  When that is the case, that person has no true moral compass.  That person is behaving illogically because he/she is subordinating a lower value for a higher value.  I am here presuming the ethical/moral belief to have the higher value because it is an ethical/moral belief.  Otherwise, it's just another fact or opinion in one's mind.

While I joke around in my recent disdain for the French and the choice to boycott their products (Michelin & BF Goodrich tires; Hennessy cognac; Maybelline & L'Oreal cosmetics; Nissan automobiles; Dannon yogurt, blah, blah, blah), it is fair and proper to use the instruments that give support to a government or a policy to express opposition to that government or policy.  Hence the boycott of businesses that conducted business in South Africa (in the past) or the boycotting of Japanese companies because of the Japanese government's policy on whaling.

Nope, you missed my point again. The point was that your own "ethical dilemma" can be said about just about any culture or political entity of your choosing depending on how far back in history you want to go and who is associated with your issue. If you begin to look within your own political borders or identity you will find those same ethical questions, and so will others, in the same way you have done.

Wrong again, eh?  Well, I've been known to be wrong a lot.  Ask my ex-.

What you write is partly true.  First, there is no true dilemna.  That word gets used incorrectly a lot.  It isn't a matter of A is bad, B is bad and a choice must be made between A or B.

As far as the ethical questions existing within one's own political borders or at nearly any point in history, that is correct.  One, that doesn't preclude making a stand at any time.  Two, failure to take a stance in the past does not halt one from forever taking one in the future.  Lastly, I'm not too sure you recognize the ethical tenent that I have taken.  Possibly you do and it's a bit of arrogance on my part to think you haven't.  But in any case, I'm not sure that you do.