Sorry for what inveribly will be seen as whining (from first time poster no less). But, I'm not the only one on the western edge of the "region". I know one thread has already brought up some points. I just wanted to add another point from out west so it is known that "OTHER RIDERS" have similar concerns so it's not viewed as "just a couple". I know Steve has voiced concerns, I just wanted to add another voice.
First, I have fours years of track riding with 1 year of racing local events at MAM two years ago. I'm a constant face at MAM. I've also done conerworking for the CCS when they've come to MAM.
Numerous riders in the Omaha area have expressed interest in racing. With just one CCS event at MAM and one event at Topeka they quickly realize the travel that will be faced. They look at the $$$s at can see it will be a very expensive endeavor. Not just talking the race related cost.
For example I just recently figured up some numbers. For me to race the "Great Plains Region", (if I want a chance for a championship), the season will be over 8500 miles of driving. With a 1936 mile round trip to Barber alone. Now that one I just don't get! (now I know there are some here that MAY do more than that I'm just talking Omaha folks) I know a racer from Florida that went to this same Barber event last year. He races Formula Forty and other classes. It was a $2200 dollar trip that do to numerous factors (not with him personally, red flags and such) he got a grand total of 9 laps in that trip!!! Plus, numerous other horror stories I've heard that is one trip I'm just not excited to make.
With rough math I figure OVER $$5200 in just travel related expenses. This does not yet include entry fees, tires, or other RACE related costs. Which can vary by bike and personal preference.
Let's say that I need to get a race bike on top of it. With the purchase of the race bike, race related expense and travel expenses I could potentially and pretty easily have a $15,000 to $20,000 dollar cost for one season.
NOW as just for me, a married, two young children, mortgaged, saving for college expenses rider, that has to convince my wife (who does not share a love for two wheels and I was married 16 years ago BEFORE this habit developed) that the above cost is NO PROBLEM.
Now I know, running a race organization is about $$$s and events at MAM have not been perfect in attendence or other ways. BUT, I hope that, as mentioned in a previous thread, that a "region" that has a little less travel for us westerners can be developed and maybe western edge rider participation would go up as well. NOT many local guys are going to pay for the race license and race prep a bike for ONE or maybe TWO events of racing that are close by.
Yes, Super Dave I'm sure you'll read this and I know you used to do it from here. But, you also moved! :) AND I can't move do to other obligations so I'm stuck trying to make a little dream of a full race season be possible.
Again, I apologize guys if this just appears to be a whine fest. I'm just trying to communicate to any and all that there ARE more potential racers out this way.
Lastly, I hope you all come race at MAM this July and give us a HUGE turnout so more dates can be considered in future years.
Thanks for listening.
I don't have any answers other than one MAM and one HPT event is better than none. Also CRA will be running a couple of events at MAM in 05 as well. As far as traveling it's an unfortunate reality you have to deal with if you want to run for a championship. I hate it too. I lost count of miles at 150,000something a long time ago.
Paul's 2003 Championship season was over 12,000 miles and $10,000+ without the cost of the bike.....
... racing is not a poor man's hobby, but it will make you one.
Dawn
Quote... racing is not a poor man's hobby, but it will make you one.
Dawn
LOL. So true.
How do you make a small fortune in racing? Start with a big one. (insert rim shot)
I stopped counting $ a long time ago as well. I have kept all my receipts and when I am done I will look. Until then........Ignorance is bliss.
Quote Also CRA will be running a couple of events at MAM in 05 as well.
CRA is a good organization, and its fees are the lowest in roadracing ($80 license and $30 sprint fees). The schedule at cra-mn.org shows 5 events at BIR (about 500 miles from Omaha) and two events at MAM. For that 2000-mile trip to Barber you could do two weekends at Brainerd and focus on a CRA championship.
Or, do the three MAM weekends between both CCS and CRA. Do HPT. And throw in a few Blackhawks or Autobahns as budget allows...
QuoteIgnorance is bliss.
And boy are we happy! ;D
9flyer, here's a question for you. Where else besides MAM is convenient for you to race? It seems like guys in your area are just geographicly screwed.
I've done the championship quest. Two years @ 20k each netted me 8 championships, and busted me to the point where I've only been able to race sporadically since. All I can suggest to you is that you try to limit expenses as much as possible. Buy a lightweight bike, to save on parts & tires. Find a teammate to travel with. Eat rice and romin noodles.
8 championships later, I can definitely say that it's not worth it. In 6 years, I've probably dropped 75-80k to win roughly 100 trophies. That's completely nuts!
I can also say that I'll do it all again just as soon as I can finance it!
LOL... I was laughing over the championship trophies of a friend at the banquet, saying that they were about $10k each (he had 3). He replied "more like $15k".
I'm a bit over $24k last year without a bike purchase...
I can either have a life, or race... I choose to race for now...
Now that we only have one racer in the family, our race weeknds run about about $800 each.
Tracks: 1 hour away (BHF and RA)
Bike:16 yrs old ('89 CB-1)
Classes run: Ultra LW SB and LW f-40
To run an entire season would come out to more like $1000-$1500 per weekend because it would increase tire costs, travel and other sundry expenses. For 2 peripheral classes. That's without crashes.
Do what you can afford, have fun to the extreme, and love it like there's no tomorrow. When you cease to have fun, it's time to be done. What more can I say?
:o ;) ;D
Guys....I don't know where you got these numbers at...
Heck I only spent about $3,500 a year when I club raced and did the entire AMA season last year on about $7K!
I think for next year my budget may finally break the 10K mark. ::)
Come on...this racing stuff is really affordable. 8) :-* ;D
We are located on the Northwestern corner of Iowa, 110 miles north of Mid America right up I-29. We have 27 events on our schedule for this summer between CRA, CCS, FUSA, and Track Addix track days. In short, we're going everywhere. Being out this way, we really need to work together to get places. There is a great group of guys from the Omaha area that race CCS, with Dwayne Lang and Steve Richardson. Maybe track them down, and get hooked up together etc. Share some expenses and some drive time. Hopefully we can grow our number of racers out this way still if we all helped each other out a bit and then when the CCS does hold events out this way we can have a turnout that would allow CCS to consider more dates in this area. I think part of the responsibility is on us to show the CCS that we can fill race entries and spectator stands before they are going to make a large scale effort to hold more events here. The amount of racers in our local area nearly doubles each year. A big reason is that we are always going racing. Our street riding/track day customers from here see that and know they won't necessarily be going it alone and decide to give it a try, and that is all it takes. We have a nice community of racers growing here and I believe the local events will grow in popularity because of stuff like that. Let me know if I can help at all.
Yup, used to live in Omaha.
When I started there was no HPT, and certainly no MAM.
Blackhawk was the closest at 450 or so from my family's home on Cornhusker Drive.
Quicky, I recognized that road racing wasn't about convienience. If I wanted to do that, I could race MX at Palmyra, NE, Greenfield, IA...race indoors with Ed Begley in Des Moines, Lincoln, and Omaha...For me, AMA National road racing was easy 'cause everything was 24 hours away. Moved away because i did MAM nationals and I didn't need to be in a particular place. Where I'm at was where my engine builder at the time was at. Opportunity.
Now, teaching schools with a local track...pretty nice.
I wanted to teach schools once a month at MAM, but I had some problems with the track management. Wasn't feesable.
QuoteGuys....I don't know where you got these numbers at...
Heck I only spent about $3,500 a year when I club raced and did the entire AMA season last year on about $7K!
I think for next year my budget may finally break the 10K mark. ::)
Come on...this racing stuff is really affordable. 8) :-* ;D
I smell sarcasm....
QuoteBeing out this way, we really need to work together to get places.
Hopefully we can grow our number of racers out this way still if we all helped each other out a bit and then when the CCS does hold events out this way we can have a turnout that would allow CCS to consider more dates in this area.
I think part of the responsibility is on us to show the CCS that we can fill race entries and spectator stands before they are going to make a large scale effort to hold more events here. .
Nice post, Rob! Well said!
QuoteI smell sarcasm....
I smelled something else.... :o
... time to get out the plunger! ;D
QuoteI smelled something else.... :o
... time to get out the plunger! ;D
That was K3 last time he was at your house...I can smell it all the way down here! :o ;)
What a huge double edged sword.
Years ago, it was locations. Just weren't so many. Lately, there have been lots of road courses built.
Years ago, when looking in the National Speedway Directory, there were like 33 to 37 road courses in the US. Most of them were built in the 60's. HPT was one of the first new places to be built and that was in 1989. Lots have followed. I'd bet that there are at least 50% more.
The track day programs...
Used to just be the CCS schools and the California Superbike Schools. Now, there's a host of schools, track day programs, etc. The volume is incredible.
Invariably, a track day and school program doesn't need the staffing and the insurance for competition. Their costs are lower, they can absorb a bit more cost than the sensitive racers and their organizations. Only so many dates, and if it costs more and a track day program will pay more...well, what date would you like? Something less desireable? Maybe even unuseable.
I'm sick of everyone wanting to "promote" the sport through schools and track days.
What does that get you? More competition for the dollars for race day.
Promote your own racing program, promote what you do, that will get people to come see you race...
So, we need more racers, or we need more people to come to the track to see racers...
Track day programs don't necessarily help race day.
The percentage of riders that have came to my non-racer programs that actually go on to race is very, very low.
Thanks a lot for your replies guys. Also thanks for not flaming me for having my whine time. It shows that you folks here in the ccs and on this forum are a good and forgiving bunch.
Super Dave; your last reply hits the nail on the head. I've been reading on some other forums about similiar view points in other regions of the country.
Plus, recently read a post from an individual who recently attended a trackday in CA. He said that there wasn't one session that did not end in a Red Flag. His view was that so many riders were riding way above their skills and over their heads!
Leading to another recent topic that I read. Some regular trackday riders are finding that an increasing number of riders are using "trackday events" as their own Race Day with their buddies. Leading to ever increasing "pushing it" circumstances and incidents.
Riders are finding that trackdays can provide an avenue to a little "looser" format to get it on with their buds without any "class" restrictions or rider/bike prepration. (BTW G97, I'm definately not implying this happens at your NESBA events for sure.) Just backing up Dave's observation and that there is probably some truth to it.
Mr. LMsports; I know Steve and Dewayne well. I also know that they have a pretty full rig when they head out of town as it is now.
Plus, my job has me travelling a lot as well. I will be hopefully doing said race travel with the family in tow. Otherwise if I head out on my own I will hear this upon entering my house; "Mommy, some man is letting himself into our house"!
For sure, sharing travel expenses is definately a great way to go. Unfortunately, I'm somewhat limited in this possibility unless they really like a whining 2 year old. Which is my own problem I know. ;D
In nutshell guys; I think the Great Plains Region, that I was placed in when I raced a year ago, needs to be a little less geographic coverage.
Why two events at Gingerman? That adds just under 300 miles of round trip traveling (according to my calculations from Omaha on Rand McNalley) versus going to Blackhawk. Which adds up $$$ in TWO trips there. Plus, I did a hotel search in the local area of Gingerman for those dates on two different travel websites and the search did not show one hotel under $90 dollars with most over $100. I'm not saying cheaper is not there, but it sure wasn't EASY to find. btw, the last time I went to Blackhawk I put up the whole family at a nice hotel in Rockford for $59 dollars a night.
If two events at Gingerman are wanted why not just make them for the Midwest Region schedule or only put ONE in the Great Plains schedule? Replacing it with one of the Blackhawk events....
Why is Great Plains going to Barber and not the Midwest Region (according to schedule that I saw)? They certainly don't need more riders at that event. Last year they didn't even have enough transponders. I'd love to go there, but not a 2000 mile round trip in the same year that I'm trying to compete in a full race season!
I could do the Midwest Region's 11 races for just a tad over 500 miles more of driving. Unfortunately, with my work schedule and driving days required the 8 or 9 event Great Plains schedule makes more sense. And for a larger geographic region an 8 or 9 race schedule should be better!!!
The other night I showed this schedule to my coworker/friend (who owns JenningsGP in FL). He was showing me how he could race this year in the WERA North Florida region that has THREE races at Jennings, THREE races at Roabling Road, with one event each at VIR and Road Atlanta. He gasped when I showed him the Great Plains schedule and said that he'd be unlikely able to do that either with our work life and schedule! AND he owns a flippin' track!
It's just not my mind that is trying to grasp this thing. Before you roll your eyes guys, I know a schedule like WERA North Florida is not going to happen with MAM. I'd just like a little something like it though.
Just last night I had a conversation with a fellow that used to race with Super Dave (yes Dave, Greg). He even was shaking his head. In those days they even had more than "one" Topeka event.
Our thoughts were the hope of an "eventual future" that would see the Great Plains schedule include two races at MAM and two races at Topeka (after it's repaving ;D) with additional races at Blackhawk and Gateway to make an 8 race schedule. I also understand GPs region going to Road America to get the riders needed to pay the bill. That would make for a 9 race season that hopefully would pull the "future number" of riders needed to make the event meet the bills ($$$). With in mind that CCS would have to include the Midwest region in part of that picture to do so.
I know Super Dave and I have discussed the overall world of sportbikes in this region. But, we are successfully having a weekly club and other trackdays in this neck of the woods. The mere fact there IS a track here now is improving this sportbike market. I have to believe there are some more racers around here that haven't been discovered yet.
I just don't see or think that the current Great Plains Region schedule is going to "promote" participating racers from the western market. Kansas City is a large metro area that faces even futher driving than my distance from Omaha. I just can not believe that more racers can not be developed from the Kansas City area as well. They are a huge participating group that we see at track day events at MAM I know for sure.
OK guys, I know, blah, blah and blah. I just hope that some fellow riders that may find similiar feelings to mine pass on their opinions to CCS as well. And have more racing and racers in the western end of the Midwest.
Oh Super Dave, by the above I mean riders in this area and Kansas City that have the desire for the true competition. Not trackday "look, I know I'm faster than him" conversations where there is NO GREEN FLAG and there is NO CHECKER FLAG.
Come race day you find out if you truly have made yourself a better rider! ;D ;D ;D
Hate to break it to you but CCS does not make a schedule so that it is hard for a racer to attend the events. Things within CCS control can cause scheduling issues, need for equipment/personel at other tracks or things outside the control of CCS dates that make back to back race weekends (which is done on occasion due to draw of the venues but is avoided whenever possible), unavailablity of dates period, rental fees, other races occuring at same track shortly before or after, or the change of mangement/employees at a track resulting in track schedule being tossed and all new requests for dates.
Eric, I think the point is this:
What part of Gingerman in Michigan is "Great Plains"?
At least in 1993, the region was defined as "South Central". It included races at Topeka (four or five), and two races at Talladega Grand Prix Course.
The epicenter for the current Great Plains region isn't even in any remote area that is in the Great Plains. If it could at least be in the Iowa area, that would be great. But with the huge amount of races "near" Chicago and west...
And Barber?
I finally got to go there. Neat facility, but it didn't turn me on that much. Given the volume of entries, I'm not sure I want to go there. Sounds like a mess.
Basically, the current Great Plains races are all in the Mid-West region events...now that Gateway is gone? Add Barber... ???? Take away two BFR's and on ACC.
Exactly...
Since the schedule hasn't been posted (which is rediculous imo, sorry CCS ;D) or even officially released is there any flexability at all left in this schedule or are the dates all set in stone? Is this a mute point and not up for discussion with CCS officials? There are several people from my area that run the entire Great Plains Series that are a bit upset with the new schedule or lack of schedule...
ok, my .02
Great plains is an untapped market in my opinion. There are a lot of people taking bikes to tracks, but mostly track days because there is not a race organization committed to this area. CCS is there kind of(HPT, MAM), but that is only 2 races, so probably wont get a lot of converts. It seems like a healthy schedule of events at MAM, HPT, Hallett, and Tulsa when it gets built could be a very strong series. Hallett has dates available this year, and there is never a shortage of racers at Hallett regardless of who is holding the race, and the owners are very good to work with.
So, pretty please! :)
I would soooo go to Hallett! But I guess these are all ideas that should have been brought up along time ago while there was still some wiggle room in the schedule. Unfortunatly we didn't know what the schedule looked like untill we got our racer package at the end of December, or wait no that one was incorrect...I guess some of us still haven't seen an official schedule... :-/
I think you have to recognize what the GP area market really is...
Ok, road races started at HPT in 1989. Regionals started running there in 1992.
Meanwhile...
Road America has been there since time began.
Blackhawk...1967.
Big markets there.
Throw in that racers last, on fair average, two years or so.
If we look at the triad of Omaha (CB - you know whow you are), KC, and Des Moines...that's really a good place to be. MAM, HPT, and Blackhawk. Ok, Blackhawk's pushing it...so is RA and ACC...but you get the picture. Might shift the center of the GP region to Des Moines to maybe around Rod Holst's place at Iowa City Motorsports...
Barber?
Gingerman? Hey, it takes me five hours or so to get to Gingerman from the Milwaukee area. 850 miles to Barber.
Eric; I so understand scheduling is not easy. I deal with it in my job every month. But, improvements through ideas and suggestions must always be considered. I can't change the present, but maybe I can help the future.
Chuck and Jack; the Tulsa (Oklahoma in general) direction from the Omaha market (and even closer for Kansas City) is a great idea and maintains a radius almost exactly the same as Blackhawk and ACC. Which I think would be acceptable to other racers from here and better for those south of here. It's a good idea I believe and hopefully nothing that would prevent it from the CCS side.
Super Dave; Thanks for your words of support for the general thoughts and ideas I'm trying to convey.
Here's a quick question, why nothing at Putnam? Did I over look it or is CCS not there at all? Just curious.
tim
Putnam...
Ok, I'll try to give an overview.
Track was built by a family.
CCS had some races there. Having certain characteristics that are found at a few tracks built by certain designers, a racer was killed there in the earlier 90's. I believe, that CCS wanted those things changed.
The family was a bit insenced by the whole thing and kind of banned CCS racing. I raced AHRMA there in 1996, and I was almost collected by the same spot. A few years later, another guy that was riding the same bike I raced in 1996, was tossed over the guard rail in the same spot and into the cold pit area.
The father of the family died recently. I'm not sure if the animosity has necessarily died. I believe that CCS always tries to take the opportunity to get in. After the ownership of CCS changed in 2000, that was one of the first things that was done, but Putnam didn't want a part of it.
Things happened last year, and WERA didn't race there.
The family makes a motorcycle engine powered GT style track car.
hmmmm politics...gotta love it
would that be turn 10 spitting you back onto the straight? kinda slippery there. I did a TD there last year and they where very adament about telling the riders to be careful through there... inda slippery and not much runoff right into a guard rail. It looked like they had moved the cold pit wall back about 30 yds though. I did like the lay out except for that turn. Fun track.
Yeah, I think it's been moved three times.
Similar things at MAM and Gingerman. Grattan ran clockwise.
I don't think anyone races at Putnam anymore. No CCS, no WERA, no AHRMA.
'Cause track day org, car and bike, have cornered the market and are willing to pay.
LOL - I love stories like these about Putnam. Roger Edmondson or someone working for him pissed off Dick (track owner) long before Eric Bienias got killed. The wall in T10 got moved once at our request (almost exactly matches a drawing I did on a napkin for Dick one weekend - not perfect but much much better) and the track did do a lot of things in the beginning to make things safer for motorcycle racers. Things have changed and basically they took offense to me telling our riders that we couldn't open the gates any earlier because of the contract we had with the track. It was true but still pissed them off for whatever reason, same type of shit that lost CCS dates years before, no surprise it finally happened to us.
Hadn't heard that Dick died, interesting but Chris holds a grudge like Dad so it'll be a while til either org goes back would be my guess.
Hey Rob, quit yer whinin' and just be glad you CAN race somewhere this year. ;)
OK Kris, I'm done now! ;)
CCS raced at Putnum. I didn't attend. From speaking to those who went - it rained, the pits were dirt. Many people got stuck, a farm tractor had to be brought in to pull people out. Also, I think there was an additional gate fee added by the track. At the next Blackhawk race there was a discussion and a vote. The riders voted to not return to Putnum. There was atl least one more Putnum race on the schedule, possibly 2. The race(s) were canceled. Possibly the cancellation pissed off the track owner and hence CCS has never returned to Putnum.
Bummer the riders didn't give it a chance, cool layout all the other issues notwithstanding. Does sound like more than enough for Dick to not allow CCS back.
Besides the mud and cost added to the gate fee (ISTR $35 instead of $20), riders really did not like the last turn. I still don't like the last turn at Putnum or at Gingerman. Could be done much better.
That's right Kris...Rob posts one stinkin post and it was a doozie! Glad to hear your opinions and have you chiming in on the board. Hope to see you at some of the Track Addix days locally if not the whole CCS series. Take care!
Officially, CCS requested a date at Putnam in 2002 and it was scheduled. Then Richard (the dad) handed things over to Chris (the son) and when Clear Channel requested the contract include an indemnify and hold harmless clause, Chris refused and gave the date to a car group. CCE is a large publicly held company and couldn't afford the exposure without this clause.
It was Chris' decision, as is his right as the track manager/owner, and we haven't looked back.
I, for one hold no grudge or animosity, it was simply business.
What about Gateway? Officially......
They had no dates that would work within our schedule...the MCRA is working to host a race weekend there that would be added back to the Great Plains schedule, but they haven't committed themselves yet. (Every date that was available was back-to-back with GP or MW races, and knowing that we typically lose $10,000 on one of those back-toback dates, we just couldn't make it work financially. CCS must at least have a chance of breaking even to put an event on the schedule.) With the MCRA running the event as an affiliate, they can take the risk that I am not allowed to.
We will try to make sure this doesn't happen in 2006, now that we have a better idea about dates for the Autobahn CC / Heartland Park and their re-paving schedule, etc, etc....
Thanks for the update, Kevin!
Dawn :)
Love getting the feedback direct like this. Thanks a ton for staying up on the board and communicating with us Kevin.
QuoteOfficially, CCS requested a date at Putnam in 2002 and it was scheduled. Then Richard (the dad) handed things over to Chris (the son) and when Clear Channel requested the contract include an indemnify and hold harmless clause, Chris refused and gave the date to a car group. CCE is a large publicly held company and couldn't afford the exposure without this clause.
It was Chris' decision, as is his right as the track manager/owner, and we haven't looked back.
I, for one hold no grudge or animosity, it was simply business.
I don't disagree that it's simply business but it has always amazed me that business there is like nowhere else.
QuoteWe will try to make sure this doesn't happen in 2006, now that we have a better idea about dates for the Autobahn CC / Heartland Park and their re-paving schedule, etc, etc....
Looks like Gateway will be back on the menu! ;D I wonder how much taller the mountain of garbage has grown?
Can't help myself. I love that place.
QuoteLooks like Gateway will be back on the menu! ;D I wonder how much taller the mountain of garbage has grown?
Can't help myself. I love that place.
I'm sure it might have something to do with the "other" East side attractions. ;)
QuoteI'm sure it might have something to do with the "other" East side attractions. ;)
Nah. I camp at the track, and I'm usually too broke to go out "clubbing" on a race weekend. But I've heard some stories.... :o
QuoteThat's right Kris...Rob posts one stinkin post and it was a doozie! Glad to hear your opinions and have you chiming in on the board. Hope to see you at some of the Track Addix days locally if not the whole CCS series. Take care!
Hey Rob,
Not sure if the last part was directed at me or Waddell, but I probably won't be able to do any track riding in 2005. My back surgeon told me "no contact sports" for at least one year. I'm really hoping to at least do some trackdays in 2006 and I've kept the SV. I would love to race again if it's at all possible, but we'll see. In the meantime, I'm going to try to help others as much as I can. There are a couple guys I know who are starting out this year and I'm trying to give advice when I can. Of course I highly recommend Lithium to them for suspension work. You guys have been great to work with. Hope you have a great and safe 2005 season and maybe I'll see you at the track!
QuoteMy back surgeon told me "no contact sports" for at least one year.
There are a couple guys I know who are starting out this year and I'm trying to give advice when I can.
So you can't play football, so what! Whats that got to do with Motorcycles ;D
Advice.....like don't crash, it hurts ;D
J/K, I'm headed to Columbia on the 31st, so leave Monday or Wednesday open.