which is better and why?
Oh, no you di'ant...
They are 2 different animals...better is subjective.
how's ccs so much different from wera? ???
We should probably just lock this thread now before we wind up in an all-out posting war between pro-CCS people and pro-WERA people.
Honestly, the rules are very similar, the people are very similar.
I raced WERA for 4 years before racing CCS. Honestly took me about 10 minutes to adapt to the changes. People are essentially the same mentality (there to have a great time).
The only big difference is that the classes are named differently, safety wire rules, and the way points are accumulated and awarded. Other than that, it's simple.
Trying to create a who's better scenario is like arguing Budhism is better than Christianity, or Dunlop is better than Michelin. To each their own. I say run both org's and have a great time.
i am really interested in hearing the differences...
so far hear say tells me CCS is a bit safer, but wera is more of a family type atmosphere...
C'mon...i want pros and cons...
safer? I wouldn't think there really is a difference from the safety factor... Also, lots of people here think of the CCS family like an extended family, so I don't think that argument would apply.
I think that selecting the org. that you choose to race with has a lot to do with what area of the country you are at. In the midwest, there wasn't a lot of WERA sanctioned events, so most people would run the CCS or CRA events.
Now if you live in Atlanta, it may be the other way around.
i always figured they were kind of the same...what about price wise and contingency wise...still both pretty much the same?
Here are some simple one's:
CCS runs more AMA tracks
WERA has a Formula 1 class
CCS has more Purse paying races
WERA is more stringent on tech
BOTH allow novices to run 1000cc machines
WERA is more Vintage friendly as they have their own series.
CCS reaches deeper into the great plains than WERA
Basically you will have to see which organization provides more opportunities to race based upon your location and schedule. Hey, we all love motorcycle racing so life is good.
;D
Thanks folks ;D
Ya' know, you may want to post the question on the WERA board at www.wera.com
However, you may receive some more..... colorful .... reponses.
:)
BTW - I don't know the differences in the contingencies, you may want to check out both sites. The one for CCS is www.ccsracing.com.
QuoteTrying to create a who's better scenario is like arguing Budhism is better than Christianity...
LOL my God's better than your God...
QuoteYa' know, you may want to post the question on the WERA board at www.wera.com
However, you may receive some more..... colorful .... reponses.
:)
well, it has been fairly quiet over there lately. careful though, the off season can turn pretty volatile when guys havent been on track in several months. ;D
QuoteYa' know, you may want to post the question on the WERA board at www.wera.com
However, you may receive some more..... colorful .... reponses.
:)
Why Dawn, whatever do you mean?
:o ;) ;D
I raced CCS in '04. and next season '05, I will run both organizations. Both offer the racer an opportunity to race, meet people, and basically have a great time.
Those more experienced than I, tell me WERA is a step up from CCS, in talent, I mean. I will see in the upcoming months, but until then...who cares!
QuoteThose more experienced than I, tell me WERA is a step up from CCS, in talent, I mean. I will see in the upcoming months, but until then...who cares!
OOOOoooooooo.........
Them there are fight'n words.
A step up depends upon who your racing against, it doesn't matter if you race CCS or WERA.
For example: There's a certain MW guy that runs LW F40 just to see if he can beat the HW F40 winner, and he has :o even starting from the second wave.
;)
Racers race. The organizations don't.
Family atmospheres are created by the racers.
Vintage friendly, yeah, WERA's better than CCS, but AHRMA is way better in keeping vintage machines more in a vintage form. Very family oriented.
QuoteRacers race. The organizations don't.
Family atmospheres are created by the racers.
Vintage friendly, yeah, WERA's better than CCS, but AHRMA is way better in keeping vintage machines more in a vintage form. Very family oriented.
AHRMA is great, however they don't require bellypans. It's cool to watch the old bikes run until one let's go. Other than that, it's great nostalgia to watch...
As far as competition varying.. I would say it depends on which region. In the North, I'd say it's pretty equa;, the farther south you reach, it's get's pretty stiff. Guys race year round.
Allot of the same racers race both , so there is not really any difference in rider talent.
Wow, this thread has gone on for nearly two pages and it's still nice and friendly-like. ;D
QuoteWow, this thread has gone on for nearly two pages and it's still nice and friendly-like. ;D
Why Don, you say that like you think it would be different on the 'other site'? ;)
My God is better than your God, and I have the WMDs to prove it!
CCS is way better than WERA. Of course, I've never raced WERA, so I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. But since when has THAT ever prevented an argument? ;)
QuoteAHRMA is great, however they don't require bellypans. It's cool to watch the old bikes run until one let's go. Other than that, it's great nostalgia to watch...
AHRMA requires belly pans.
Got to keep up with the current events...LOL!
QuoteThose more experienced than I, tell me WERA is a step up from CCS, in talent, I mean. I will see in the upcoming months, but until then...who cares!
I checked the lap times on the WERA site and they don't appear to be any different-- the best lap times and the variation of those lap times seem to be on par w/ CCS.
Personally I love the people at CCS, they have always bent over backwards for me and made things that were wrong right. Now, they aren't perfect and do make mistakes and bad calls from time to time... but who doesn't?
QuoteBOTH allow novices to run 1000cc machines
That must be new for 05 cause that's the reason I started w/ CCS and not wera. Wera did NOT have 1kcc AM classes in 04.
Here's the difference...
CCS runs in the MidWest. WERA does not... This clearly makes CCS better. :D
Good point, Jeff...
They bounced over to WERA West in California, right over the fly over states.
QuoteThat must be new for 05 cause that's the reason I started w/ CCS and not wera. Wera did NOT have 1kcc AM classes in 04.
The rulings were just changed. I beleive it was due to WERA West allowing Novices to run literbikes in California. That somehow carried over into the midwest in the form of (if we let one do it, then all must do it.) For comic relief however, the name of the class will be A-SS ;D As in A superstock...
QuoteThe rulings were just changed. I beleive it was due to WERA West allowing Novices to run literbikes in California. That somehow carried over into the midwest in the form of (if we let one do it, then all must do it.) For comic relief however, the name of the class will be A-SS ;D As in A superstock...
;D yeah I got first in the A-SS class! ;D ;D
As I stated before, i've never run WERA. I have run CCS, CMRA and GLRRA. I've never gone to a racetrack and not made friends. I've always found faster and slower racers, too. I don't think you can go wrong entering a motorcycle race anywhere.
You'll hear things about this group or that group. I heard the CMRA guys were rough riders, and that they hated Northerners. Well, they rode just the same as everyone else I've raced, and every time I've gone to Hallett, the locals have bent over backwards to make my friends and I feel welcome. Imagine groups of people coming over to our camp on saturday night with their coolers of beer, just to get to know us!
Seems like in this sport, it's all good! :D
I've raced with about everyone.
Most are accomodating: riders, crews, and organizational people.
However, there have been "unique" occasions within them all.
QuoteHere are some simple one's:
CCS runs more AMA tracks
WERA has a Formula 1 class
I'll be taking my first WERA plunge this year.
Actually, looks like WERA has more AMA tracks. CCS only has VIR, Daytona, Road America, and Barber.
Wera has Atlanta, Barber, VIR, Ohio, and Fontana.
CCS also has UNGP which I believe is a match for F1.
One silly thing that matters to me, WERA SS rules forbid double bubble wind screens -- something 200 lb'rs like me need to get out of the wind. They also forbid swamping out the master cylinder (like, for a radial Brembo), which is one of the best saftey/performance upgrades I've ever made (pretty inexpensive too).
But, I've never been able to tell the difference b/t CCS and WERA racer at a track day, excepting maybe some stickers.
Quotei always figured they were kind of the same...what about price wise and contingency wise...still both pretty much the same?
Price had always been pretty similar but here are the break downs.
CCS does grids by date of entry, WERA does grids by points in class. So if you do the whole season it is pretty much a wash as WERA gives a disount for pre entry, but if you only do a few races you move further back on the grid with WERA but with a pre entry to CCS event will give you same grid spot regardless, does that make sense? IE you can only run some of the races you pre enter for only those you are going to have a good grid position for those races with CCS with WERA you will be in the back. If you run the whole season and preenter you get the good grid positions with CCS and WERA you get your earned grid spot. If you post enter then WERA still gives you your earned grid position but you pay more CCSyou don't pay more but you don't get as good a grid position.
Here is prices
License
CCS $110 runs calender year (63 races at 21 venues)
WERA $100 runs 12 months (35 races at 17 venues)
transponder fees
CCS none included in entry
WERA $60 per event or must purcahse and maintain own unit $330
Sprint races
CCS 70, 50, 35 (Unlimited GP 70 with $1000 cash purse)
WERA 60(70 post entry), 50, 40 (no purse races)
50 mile race (approx each org runs them differnt)
CCS GT race 70 with $505 cert purse
WERA 55 (65 post entry) purse is %50 of entry fees for class
Practice day
CCS AKA Lockhart Phillips Sport rider day $75 for CCS license rider
WERA (only run at their natioanal events) $90 ($100 post entry)
So if you pre enter for all the CCS/WERA races you could do on a SS legal GSXR750 at a CCS and a WERA weekend you would have. CCS License, GTO(guaranteed purse), HSS, HSB, USS, USB (WERA does not have a corresponding class), UGP($1000 purse)
WERA License, transponder, HS2(no guaranteed purse), BSS, BSB, ASS, F1
CCS 110, 70, 70, 50, 35, 35, 70 = 440 (or 405 for same classes as WERA or 370 for same number of purse classes, ie drop UGP and run ULSB)
WERA 100, 60, 55, 60, 50, 40, 40 = 405
Post-entry in the same classes would be
CCS 110, 70, 70, 50, 35, 35, 70 =440(or 405 for same classes as WERA or 370 for same number of purse classes, ie drop UGP and run ULSB)
WERA 100, 60, 65, 70, 50, 40, 40 = 425
So price is really about the same for either group just venues and race classes would be the determining factor on a purely mathematical standpoint.
Contingency really comes down to the product you are taking about; CCS has had the largest program in the country with the most payout, but you would need to check each for the products you are using.
These are 2004 programs
CCS (http://www.formulausa.com/contingency/ccsawards217a.pdf)
WERA (http://wera.com/pages/money.htm)
Ass I said, there are subtle differences between class rulings and such.
The Double Bubble windscreen has been debated time and again, the main reason is that it essentially changes the aerodynamics of a stock machine, there fore goe against SS rules. Now when it comes to the SV650, I know most orgs were originally lax about bodywork because of availability, they allowed different bodies to be used.. (It was pretty cool sometimes to see the grids with everything from 916/GSXR/TL/RC? and even Aprillia GP bodies).
Ahhh....the CCS vs WERA topic is a classic discussion. In my opinion, both have their perks. I have friends in both organizations. BUT, (being the cornerworker I am) I feel as if the riders are "safer" with CCS. As far as who is faster, it has nothing to do with what group you run with. HELLO!! A person's talent is his/her own. I hear people talk about how CCS's tech rules are so much "more" than WERA's, that's self explanatory. And I may be pushing the envelope here but who cares, Cornerworkers in (at least my region) are trained prior to manning a corner on their own. At WERA races, They'll give a set of flags to someone who doesn't know what a bike is and send them to a corner by themselves. Been there, done that. Makes me nervous. Sorry, but that is my opinion.
Quote50 mile race (approx each org runs them differnt)
CCS GT race 70 with $505 cert purse
WERA 55 (65 post entry) purse is %50 of entry fees for class
WERA pays
CASH! :D
Eric, I thought I was one of the front runners in extensive responses, now out of the blue you come up from mid-pack and are competing for the position. :o
With that last post your definately getting contingency and purse payout, a little bit more of that and your gonna be fighting for the posting podium! ;D ;)
QuoteI feel as if the riders are "safer" with CCS. As far as who is faster, it has nothing to do with what group you run with. HELLO!! A person's talent is his/her own. I hear people talk about how CCS's tech rules are so much "more" than WERA's, that's self explanatory. And I may be pushing the envelope here but who cares, Cornerworkers in (at least my region) are trained prior to manning a corner on their own. At WERA races, They'll give a set of flags to someone who doesn't know what a bike is and send them to a corner by themselves. Been there, done that. Makes me nervous. Sorry, but that is my opinion.
Ok that's a fair statement, now I will challenge you to substantiate it. I have raced both and was shocked that the CCS tech official took one look at my WERA sticker and made the following comment: "You race WERA, then I know this thing is safety wired all over the place." As well I have been to a safety meeting pre-race with cornerworkers. I found nothing that proves WERA trains their cornerworkers any differently than CCS. Matter of factly, every WERA race I have attended, there is a VERY lengthy speech given from the race director (usually Sublet) on the flag procedure, and a speech from the tower official regarding green flag start and finish, as well as black flag or meatball notification. Also, I distinctly remember Gingerman's race at end of the year held a 10 minute meeting pre-race. WERA meetings are 20 minutes bare minimum. In several tracks, WERA used the same cornerworkers. As well, Sean and Evelyn refused to run a certain facility due to one (1) major safety concern despite 2 years of nagging and whining from racers. I feel no more or less safer at a WERA race than a CCS race.
What region and group of cornerworkers are you speaking for?
Southeast Region....I also work WERA events too on occasion. This meeting you are speaking of sounds like the riders meeting. Cornerworkers are usually on their way to the turns by then. Don't get me wrong, we all want the same end result. I remember when WERA recruited people at Roebling Road. Quick rundown on what flags meant and off on their own they went. I also remember a race where a corner worker and rider were extremely injured and needed a medic but we only had one. "Can it wait for three more laps?" (That was the next radio transmission from the tower.)
CCS puts at least one experienced worker with the "green" one. I know I have trained more workers than I can count. And concerning tech, I am shocked too. I'm always hearing riders bitch about how strict CCS is.
But, that's my 2 cents. I've got well over a decade of history with both groups and both have their pros and cons. And yeah, WERA does pay more cash. ;)
QuoteWERA pays CASH! :D
Yes Bill WERA pays cash in their "GT" series but Bill I just ran the numbers average purse $370.63(1868 entries in 21 events of 6 purse classes each times $25 equals 1868/(21*6)*25) so there is ~$130 more up for grabs each weekend that is good for racing. plus I noticed there were 27 races that had 5 or fewer racers in the race which means that the purse is almost non existant for even the winner.
I corrected my numbers to reflect the actual purse breakdown as I was pointed to the proper place to find the correct figures for WERA Solo purses.
I just like the fact that I can spend cash anyway I like.
WERA's system isn't so cut and dry when it come to purses for the solo events. They pay $30 per entry to the purse. Their payout depends on number of entries. They pay what the calss supports. In your five rider example with a total purse of $150 the payout would be ~ 1st $75, 2nd 50 and 3rd 25. A race with forty plus riders will have a purse of $1200 or more paying ten places deep with about $200+ to the winner, fith place will payout ~$100. Not bad if you are a front runner in multiple classes.
As a novice I earned a big portion of those purses. I prefer walking away with cash in hand at the end of the day.
Hey, Eric. Did you include the cost of the transponder fee in your WERA total?
Cash, does WERA pay cash to Novices as well?
I've been haggling for almost a year with Fort Worth just for some licensing and cancellation credits!!! If WERA's office protocols are more professional it is worth checking out.
Novices and Experts both earn cash in Solo 20's..
The races are essentially a 20 lap dash for cash in the following divisions:
Heavyweight 750+
Middleweight 600
Lightweight - 599 and under
About 1/2 the riders use the Solo 20's as a prep for Sunday's sprints. If there are time constraints or the track runs long lap times, they shorten the race to 16 laps.