Is anyone using an Ohlins Shock on their first Generation SV? Anyone have ride height problems? I can't seem to get enough ride height. I have the spring for my weight, but it seems like the Ass end of my bike is sitting too low?
I'm in the process of making a spacer to bring ithe rear up a bit, but I'm wondering if I'm the only one.
Thanks,
Nick
Oh, by the way, I have my ride height, the adjusment on the bottom of the shock pretty much maxed.
You can get different bottom clevises for the Ohlin's shock.
What ride height to use? Well, I get my bikes GMD'd by http://4and6.com , so I get a ball park of what I need.
Spring rates and dampening issues can give one symptoms of being too low in the back when the real cause is someplace else.
QuoteOh, by the way, I have my ride height, the adjusment on the bottom of the shock pretty much maxed.
Grasshopper,
We should be able to handle this down at Superbike Italia in Lemont, IL. We are the midwest Ohlins Service Center/Distributer and can have access to the specs you need. Give us a call, Ken or Matt: 630 243 9633.
Thanks Matt! :)
I will definitely be giving you a call.
I did call Ohlins and the tech I talked to couldn't give me a staight answer about a clevis for my SV. He took my info and said he'd get back to me.
Dave and Matt thanks for the response on this thread.
Your shock length should be 13 5/8 from eye to eye. Raise your forks 10mm from top of triples to top of cap. Anymore rear ride height and you will start pulling on the swingarm at the wrong angle and start loosing rear traction. Your ohlins shock should get you to that length easily. You dont have it too high already do you?
You've got to take into account the tire you use...they have different heights.
And if your gearing is different where the effective swingarm length is different, it will all change too.
Lots of factors to take into account, still lots of time to play.
I know one thing for sure. Michilen tires are DEFINITELY a taller tire than a Dunlop. I like the Dunlops better for sure so I'm sticking with those for this coming season.
My forks are raised 10mm from top of triples to top of cap.
The ride height on the shock is almost completely maxed out.
I called Ohlins about the issue and the tech said he's had a number of different people call about the same problem with a SV and that shock. He took my information and is going to investigate.
I'm just going to keep playing with it and have fun
You can take a look at my ride height issue by looking at these pictures.
I took the lower half of my bodywork off and mounted my belly pan that I normally have on my street SV for the last races at Blackhawk. I never have any problems with with the other SV dragging the belly pan (It has a gixxer shock) and I still dragged the shit out of that on the race bike.
http://sliderphoto.com/bin/photos.asp?Racer=444&Event=091804
http://sliderphoto.com/bin/photos.asp?Racer=444&Event=071704
Michelin fronts[/i] have traditionally been taller. Rears have been shorter. And the new generation tires for 2005 are supposed to be different.
Dude, you cant tell what is going on with your ride height by some race pics!!??!! First off it sounds like you have a shock that too short for your bike. I have an ohlins rear shock on mine but its was origionaly for a GSXR which is about 8mm longer than the stock SVs to begin with. I also added about 20mm more length by adjusting the bottom mount. There is still plenty of adjustment left on my shock, probally could go another 20mm higher if I wanted. You have a GSXR shock on your street SV so that is why it aint dragging,its longer that a stock SV shock. You probally have a Ohlins shock made for an SV on your race bike so it starts out at the stock length and must run out of adjustment before it gets long enough. The only way to tell is to take the shock off and measure the length and see if you can get it to 13 5/8 long. If you cant get it at least that long you are going to need a longer adjustment eye or a longer GSXR shock.
I'll agree and disagree.
If the bike comes with body work, like a new 600, etc... the body lines follow a certain plain. It's pretty easy to take some good examples here and there and see what your bike looks like. It will give one a feeling of how the attitude of the bike is.
I know that I have used some pictures of my students to lead them on to questions that gave me answers that related back to their bike, no necessarily their riding. Often, they were riding in a way to change their input into the bike to make it feel better so they wouldn't have the poor feeling that riding it in a more conventional manner.
SV's...well, yeah, how do you mount it.
G-hopper had the GSXR shock on his street bike, not his race bike, if I'm still reading correctly. But he used his Street SV lower on his race bike.
Still draggin' the other lower.
So, questions have to follow...you have the correct spring? It has to support three things...I'll let you figure that out.
^
;D
See! Dave will be so proud when I figure this whole thing out and start winning races!!!
Wait a minute, let me rephrase that,
"Dave will be proud after I take his school, FIGURE THIS WHOLE THING OUT, and start winning races!
Instead of taking Bruers school,
Correct DAVE??? ??? :o
LOL!
I'm here to work for people, if they make the decision to work with me.
So, you can take any school you feel works for you.
Proud? Yeah, I'm proud of the work that riders do. But really it comes down to a riders work, luck, and so on.
Many ways to do it. You have to make the decision.
Back to decisions.
I'm knowledgeable enough that I can probably set up a bike pretty well. I know what I'm looking for, I understand how the package works for itself.
But I still use 4&6's GMD set up to get my geometry right at the beginning so I can ride the bike and work on fine tuning, rather than getting into the ball park.
I have had riders show up to my racer university with bikes completely no prepared to ride. Chain too tight and no other options as an example. What am I supposed to do? What a rider feels from the bike translates into how fast a rider feels they can comfortably ride the bike. If we can't make changes, are you just going to ride around the issue?
I've got a video tape of a race at Laguna from 1984. Was play time for KR on the reed valve YZR500. Anyway, he wasted the tire. Dennis Torres asked Kenny, "How did you compensate with riding style for the problems with the motorcycle?" Kenny looked at him kind of goofy and replied, "Uh, I went slower."
You've got to have the bike in the ball park.
QuoteLOL!
You've got to have the bike in the ball park.
Thats what I gave him, some ball park numbers! :o
QuoteYou've got to take into account the tire you use...they have different heights.
And if your gearing is different where the effective swingarm length is different, it will all change too.
And this...
Spring rate...is it correct? How much preload then? That part of ride height will affect a bikes where everything is exactly the same in the rear shock length...but they
will handle differently.
People measure from the upper triple clamp up...
but we have production parts here. Add up all the pieces...really the important measurement would be from the lower triple clamp to the front axle.
So, if you'd like to share the information, I'm sure it would give him a real ball park starting point from your set up.
Dave, I dont think you have much experience with SVs as your bikes are more sensitive to small changes, you know them well. He said he had the correct spring for his weight, everyone on SVs run about 25-30mm of sag with gear on, 0-5mm bike only sag, thats the preload, pretty much standard for any bike, I assumed he has this much sag. Everyone on SVs has 10mm of fork showing above the triples. Everyone on most all tracks except Daytona run the stock gearing, 15-45 or at the most one up or one down on the rear, which doesnt change the rear height to any noticable degree. Dunlops and Pirellis are about the same height, michlins are taller. I know only 2 people out of 20 that run michlins on SVs. Most everone is on Pirellis because up until late last year dunlop didnt offer a 160 208gp, they do now though. If everything on his bike is anywhere close to this and his shock is not 13 5/8 long then his ride height is off. ;D Thats my observations in the EX class in the midatlantic and SE. :P If anyone is running something else its some big secret and they wont tell you anyway. :-X
Assumptions...
I've ridden a few SV's, EX's...lots of stuff.
25mm of sag...that's pretty tight. 0-5mm of free sag under the weight of the bike...really tight again too.
Any bike is sensitive to changes...can the rider recognize that it's really bike giving feedback is usually the problem.
I run about 46mm of sag in the front of my R6. around 38mm in back. I think we're probably at like 18mm of free sag in the back...but I'm using a different spring too.
I run about 46mm of sag in the front of my R6.
[/quote]
If i ran that much sag on the front forks the fender would hit the radiator, he he . ;D
It's related to the rising rate springs that I use in my forks...and on my rear shock too.
And I'll probably run a similar set up, rising rate springs, on my H1 too.
So, things are back at you now...
Does your bike handle in a way that allows you to exploit the handling? Or do you strive to figure out where you're loosing speed in the entries and exits?
Then, what are you going to do to change that? Or do you leave it the same way and just try to "run it in harder", "throw it over faster", "brake later", and all the other one liners...
Here's what I've seen...
Now, recognize that I started doing this silly stuff a long time ago. I was younger and motivated. I did things because I could. Ego. Felt that I had the same stuff as everyone else. I arrived at the AMA level and was lucky enough to get hooked up with the right person to learn a few things from. Did well, ran out of money, but got offers to ride some pretty unique bikes in the form of priceless vintage machines. Again, it's got two wheels, but they don't handle like the new stuff.
I learned enough racing at the level I did to have some kind of a knowledge base to recognize that my own feelings about how something feels is actually relevant. Then I got good enough that I could make changes to bikes to accomodate things...unique tire shapes, tracks, etc.
Vintage bikes can be similar, but, additionally, a whole different ball game. I've got all those little notes in my head about the issues that we had on particular bikes, etc. It all goes back to the relationship in the geometry in the bike. Old bikes can make big power. I've raced an AHRMA 750 Honda that has as much HP as my current R6. Only weighs a little more, and has narrow tires. Engine signs off at about 9800RPM's vs the astronomical RPM's now.
Anyway, that old bike has certain issues too. I can get it to do some things, but it's at a sacrifice of another. Everyone said we needed to do one thing. Rode the bike, and they were all backwards. Because of certain items, one thing needed to be one way, and that affected another item.
A rote number for a shock length is a fair ball park, but it certainly doesn't take into account all the other factors that are relevant.
Wanna keep going? This is free advice this time around.
For the most part if your suspension is "in the ball park" on a modern sportbike its good enough for 99% of us club racers. What is holding us back is things like, getting on the throttle late, braking too early coming into a turn, speed sensation is off from not riding during the winter,corner speed too slow being consistant with the proper lines, hitting your markers every time around etc etc.. Those things have nothing to do with shocks and springs. You can change small things around on your suspension till you turn blue in the face and if you dont have a handle on these other things it aint gonna matter. I have seen a guy turn the same lap times on a bone stock SV, suspension pipe and all, that the top AMs were turning with tricked out suspensions, motors, and the stock SV suspension has to be the worst of any newer bike. He got up to mid pack of the experts at the last race and was only a few sec behind me at the finish, I was 4th EX at the finish. Im a 2nd year expert and still learning to do those things consistly, my suspension is "in the ball park" and it has yet to let me down. My point is get your stuff at least close to what the top guys are running, then dont worry about it, then learn all those other things that are really holding us back. Just being a .25 sec late on the throttle to the top guy, is 1 sec late ever four turns and 3 sec a lap on a 12 turn track. Now if you are in the top 1% and AMA pro bound, then you have the riding skills down, then you can use the fine tuning supension settings to your advantage, you also need to get the last little drop of HP from your motor as well. At the club level its mostly the rider that wins not the suspension or the motor. 8)
Thats basically all I want to do is be in the ball park with this suspension issue, and have a standard base line setting. I appreciate you guys taking the time to reply to this topic. I'm not a pro Racer and never will be. But I want and will have my bike in the ball park this year. I'm just out there to have fun and ride my motorcycle.
I have the shock off the bike rite now, I'll take a measurement and make sure I have the 13 and 5/8 that James is talking about. Then I'll go from there.
So James? If I have 13 and 5/8 length on my rear shock and the correct spring rate, I should be able to get in the ball park correct?
QuoteI have the shock off the bike rite now, I'll take a measurement and make sure I have the 13 and 5/8 that James is talking about. Then I'll go from there.
So James? If I have 13 and 5/8 length on my rear shock and the correct spring rate, I should be able to get in the ball park correct?
Nick,
Call us down at SbkItalia if you need any springs or just advice off of the 'net". Talking person to person is still the best way to filter out all the good and bad info. I'd be glad to help you get that thing sorted. I've never raced on an SV, but I've displaced quite a few of them off of the podium. Uh oh, there is that ego thing that Dave was talking about.
Dave, are you going to race the Autobahn down here in Joliet? Our shop is 20 minutes away. Come on buy ya goofball!!!
I went home for lunch and measured the shock from eye to eye and its 13 and 5/8 of an inch long.
The spring I have on it now reads
01093 31/95 L164<-- Ohlins said this spring is for my weight.
I also acquired another spring for it that reads
1093 44/95 L164 <- I was told this spring is for a heavier rider.
I have no idea what these #'s mean, I'm going to call Ohlins and find out.
QuoteFor the most part if your suspension is "in the ball park" on a modern sportbike its good enough for 99% of us club racers. What is holding us back is things like, getting on the throttle late, braking too early coming into a turn, speed sensation is off from not riding during the winter,corner speed too slow being consistant with the proper lines, hitting your markers every time around etc etc.. Those things have nothing to do with shocks and springs.
No, it's relevent.
Give me a fair rider that can actually use the controls, the brake throttle, etc., I can change things to make it work better or worse...yeah, I'd want to make it better, but I can make it worse to make my point.
The 1% guys are so quick reacted that they can usually just quickly pick up the bike from falling over, spinning out, etc. with bad springs, poor dampening, etc.
They are often the hardest to work with because they don't have a clue on what they are feeling, they just save it time after time after time.
Us normal people react to some kind of feel. Can't necessarily put a finger on it, but it might just not feel like we can open the gas at a certain time. Yeah, there are times when it comes down to execution...not braking into a corner and opening the gas, etc...Those are issues all on their own...but I've worked with guys in my VRU program with a pretty stock SV. I know he knows how to ride a bike, but he gets on the SV and he can't translate...well, it's because the suspension is a certain way. He's trying to do things, and the chassis just works against him. He doesn't know what to do, and that's where I come in. I ride, make changes, send him out, me ride, he ride. Make changes to get the thing to actually turn like it should, without constant effort to get it to follow a line. Eventually, we run out of adjustments and time, but now the rider recognizes that there are certain things that the bike just won't allow him to do until the chassis is set up better. Trying to overcome the mechanical difficulties of the chassis in that case is just a sentence to go out and fall over.
Rider and Suspension issues...they are related. How long will it take?
VRU - May 26th, August 25th... Don't have to be a pro racer. But you don't have to feel like the ride is terror all the time. Got to make decisions.
Matt...ACC? Don't know. At this point, no. Something might change, but I don't know. Might be there for a track day program, but no racing there for me, I do know that. Planning to do more AMA racing with my cancer program.
QuoteI went home for lunch and measured the shock from eye to eye and its 13 and 5/8 of an inch long.
The spring I have on it now reads
01093 31/95 L164<-- Ohlins said this spring is for my weight.
I also acquired another spring for it that reads
1093 44/95 L164 <- I was told this spring is for a heavier rider.
I have no idea what these #'s mean, I'm going to call Ohlins and find out.
01093 31/95
01093- this translates to a 150mm spring
31/95- 31 is arbitrary ohlins# but the 95= 95 N/mm
which is a 542lb spring
L164 is meaningless
On the 44/95, are you sure it is not a 44/120? which is a 120N/mm spring or 685lbs.
You can actually call us instead as Ohlins USA prefers that we handle calls in or Service area. But it is up to you.
Thanks,
Matt SBKItalia 630 243 9633
QuoteMatt...ACC? Don't know. At this point, no. Something might change, but I don't know. Might be there for a track day program, but no racing there for me, I do know that. Planning to do more AMA racing with my cancer program.
Dave,
When is your first school? I would like to do it. I've got some fork internals for the gsxr750 that I can't wait to test.
Quote01093 31/95
01093- this translates to a 150mm spring
31/95- 31 is arbitrary ohlins# but the 95= 95 N/mm
which is a 542lb spring
L164 is meaningless
On the 44/95, are you sure it is not a 44/120? which is a 120N/mm spring or 685lbs.
You can actually call us instead as Ohlins USA prefers that we handle calls in or Service area. But it is up to you.
Thanks,
Matt SBKItalia 630 243 9633
TYPO!
Yea, 44/120 is the spring I have off the shock
31/95 is the spring I have on the shock, supposably for my weight.
QuoteDave,
When is your first school? I would like to do it. I've got some fork internals for the gsxr750 that I can't wait to test.
Good question...might be on Monday May 8th with CCS...but that wouldn't be a school for you, really.
May 26th is really the one. Limited to eight riders and me. Might have something else going on too, but I don't have any proper information right now.
Grasshopper...So, it seems as though that your shock length is "in the ballpark", but it still seems to suck.
What kind of rear sag did you have on the back? How about the front? What spring is in the front? What kind of times are you running at Blackhawk?
Grasshopper...So, it seems as though that your shock length is "in the ballpark", but it still seems to suck.
Yes he is in the ballpark and his bike should be working just fine, he has the right spring too. I say he thinks it sucks for some reason other that it really is too low. Now what we need to know is why he thinks his ride height is too low when in fact it is not. What does he think his bike is doing because of the too low rear? He hasnt said yet. ??? I went back and read all his post and all he said was his rear was too low. How about it grasshopper what is your bike doing to make you think the ass end is too low?? ;D
set it at 13 7/8 if the shock is long enough to get away with it.
Grasshopper is actually reacting to the feedback that his bike is trying to tell him.
He says it's low because he's dragging and that's how it feels to him.
Really, that's good that he's trying to articulate it. Often some riders just do stuff and wad, brake pieces, get hurt, etc.
Grasshopper...
Ok, so,
I can see things in your pictures from Jack. Yeah, the attitude of the bike is biased.
Give me some answers here. Given what I see, I'd think that at Blackhawk:
- Your bike doesn't slow down the greatest. You hammer the brakes but people go by you.
- The Kink has to be awful with the bike feeling like it wants to run off in the grass.
- Getting the bike to follow a line going into a corner is hard.
- Turn two might not be too bad
- Turn four after the bus stop has you runing wide all through the corner and it blows your drive to five
- Five, when you can get it to turn correctly, is a lot of fun
Really, you could use a 17" shock and it wouldn't make the bike right if other things are wrong.
Holy Crap! I can't believe you guys are giving this much feed back.
OK, I'm going to be honest with you guys about everything that has happened to me with this suspension issue.
I have RC51 bodywork that I mounted myself. I think it needs to be mounted a little higher on the bike for one. I'm going to take care of that issue.
Earlier in the season I was using a 99 Gixxer 750 shock and had the RC51 body work on there and never had an issue with ground clearence.
Then I put the Ohlins shock on there and started to have ground clearance problems.
Let me go back here for a second to the front suspension.
I have Race Tech .75 springs with Race Tech Emulators tweaked (according to Race Tech) to my weight (I'm pretty sure I have them turned in 2 3/4 turns) and I'm running 20 Weight Oil. I drilled the holes in the emulsion tubes according to race tech. I don't have preload adjusters for the front so If I change my preload at all I cut spacers out of PVC to give more or less preload. I have about 25mm (a little on the stiff side) of sag on the front end rite now with all my gear on. Forks are raised above triples 10mm.
That raps up the front. DEEP BREATH!
After we mounted the Ohlins shock we set the sag to 30mm in the rear and had the compression 12 clicks out and the rebound 13 clicks out. So roughly in the middle.
The shock fealt good and my lap times went up. I was able to run consistant 22's and clicked off a few 20's and 21's. But the bodywork was dragging all over the place. So then we started messing with the ride height and I raised the body work up a little bit.
MAY BE I WAS JUST RIDING AROUND MY PROBLEMS! I'm not sure, I'm still learning. MAY BE I JUST GOT MORE BOLD!
But I was able to pull off a few Podium Finishes at Gingerman. Probably because of the low turnout of riders.
After that race day I had a few large holes in my lower fairing so I mounted a belly pan on the bike for the BHF date in September. I wore holes in that thing to. I tried messing with the ride height more and I still couldn't get enough out of it.
HERE IS THE SCARY PART, You guys ready for this? >:(
Last week I took the Ohlins shock off the race bike and found that the spring was Loose in between the preload adjust Jam nut and the bottom of the shock. I think that was my whole ride height issue. STUPID ME EH?
Last night Matt and I at Superbike Italia mounted the stiffer spring on the shock and took some measurements while drinking a six pack, and as of now I'm starting all over. I'm going to record any adjustments I make and go from there.
So, I know the issue was that the spring was loose in the shock and the other issue is my bodywork is a little too low on the bike.
I learned a lesson here though. I need to be more careful with my adjustments and take care to realize that everything is tight, Included the jam nut on the shock.
But, I'm just a rookie! ;D
So what is the sag now?
QuoteSo what is the sag now?
Due to the fact that my garage is not heated all of the time and I am out of Kerosene, the task of installing the shock did now happen yet, i'll post up and let you know when I get it done. ;D
QuoteDue to the fact that my garage is not heated all of the time and I am out of Kerosene, the task of installing the shock did now happen yet, i'll post up and let you know when I get it done. ;D
Right on, I figured you hadn't done it yet. ;)
QuoteRight on, I figured you hadn't done it yet. ;)
Matt.. stay away from this Nick kid.. he's bad news. ;)
QuoteMatt.. stay away from this Nick kid.. he's bad news. ;)
KWAK KWAK KWAK!!!
LOL!
So, there's the issue...the shock spring was not preloaded. I call that secondary geometry.
You say you had 30mm of sag before? Was that with the bike topped out or not?
Matt...Super Dive...LOL!
KwaAAAAAK, kwak, kwak, kaaaWK!
(Almost sounds like Burgese Merdeth as the Pengin.)
He really should have caught that his preload was way off, we wouldnt have had to go through all this. :D Then bolt that body work up as high as it will go!! ;D ;D
QuoteLOL!
So, there's the issue...the shock spring was not preloaded. I call that secondary geometry.
You say you had 30mm of sag before? Was that with the bike topped out or not?
.)
Define Topped out! You mean full gear, full tank of gas? HUH!?! DUH?!? DUH!?!
KWAK KWAK!
???
When we set the sag with Ohlins shock I know the spring was tight. Yes I had 30mm of sag then. Somewhere along the line it came loose. Ask me when, I don't freakin know ???
KWAK KWAK!
QuoteHe really should have caught that his preload was way off, we wouldnt have had to go through all this. :D Then bolt that body work up as high as it will go!! ;D ;D
You're acting like you had something better to do. The weather is crappy and thats why you're sitting on the internet typing this stuff to someone you don't even know. I do appreaciate your time though. I'll buy you a case of beer when I meet you. Or I could just bring a keg to the track for an after race party for the suspension expert guys here
QuoteDefine Topped out! You mean full gear, full tank of gas? HUH!?! DUH?!? DUH!?!
KWAK KWAK!
LOL!
Topped out - full extention. The bike can sag under it's own weight. Depending on how much preload you have, the bike sag will be different. But extention will always be the same. It's not going to get any more topped out. I use both bike sag and rider sag for references. If you put on a heavier spring and you want to have the same rider sag, you WILL have MORE sag under the weight of the bike.
QuoteLOL!
Topped out - full extention. The bike can sag under it's own weight. Depending on how much preload you have, the bike sag will be different. But extention will always be the same. It's not going to get any more topped out. I use both bike sag and rider sag for references. If you put on a heavier spring and you want to have the same rider sag, you WILL have MORE sag under the weight of the bike.
I'll make sure and give the tail of the bike a tug, so the the shock is fully extented, take a measurement, then sit on the bike and set the sag
I set the sag last night on the bike, among other tinkering. It's in the living room! ;D
I have a good baseline, the sag is at about 22mm without my gear on. Should be a good # to start playing at.
QuoteSo what is the sag now?
22mm
From topped out with you on it?
Or from toppd out with just the weight of the bike on it?
From Topped out with me on it. 22mm
Without gear, without gas tank.
I Figure with the gas tank and all my gear on it "SHOULD" be between 25 and 30mm.
Maybe.
How much free sag now? Topped out to sagging under its own weight...
How much preload does the spring have...
Specifically, how long is the spring unloaded minus its length preloaded.
Might shed some light, but I don't know if you measured it before.