Okay. I've done a search and haven't seem an answer. I don't quite see this fitting into either the Tips & Tricks or Wrenching sections. But if I'm wrong, feel free to move this thread.
Anywho, what are the Bridgestone equivalents to the Pirelli Super Corsas and Diablo Corsas? And what are your opinopms of them?
If it's a separate issue, pls chime in on the Bridgestone BT-001 & BT-002.
TIA
H-man
Sooo.... Who's gonna chime in with a reply.
Make that a helpful reply ;)
Yeah, well, lets be honest...
Bridgestone is not a player in the market for racing as Dunlop, Michelin, or Pirelli.
I don't think you'll make up in what you get in cost vs the consistency, traction, and availability of decent rubber for a bike that you might end up at the track with.
Each manufacturere has different physical sizes in diamater and contour when comparing tires of the same stated size. So, you use one tire, switch to another, you will affect the overall geometry and handling of your motorcycle.
Yeah, you can affect it in a good way, but do you know which way you want to go, and would you recognize those differences in feedback from the motorcycle?
Thanks for the comeback SD.
Yeah, Brigdestone is huge in F1 racing but isn't a player in motorcycle racing (other than Tamada's GP results this past year).
And I'm still too new at this to think I'd really have the sensitivity to notice sublte changes in characteristics from one tire to another. To use one of Keith Code's analogies, a lot of my $10 of attention is spent on things that may be second nature for others. So I don't think I'd pick up on subtle differences.
Since I don't exactly push tires to their limits, what I'm after is information about grip and durability. I noticed a world of difference in grip when I went from the Metzeler M-1 to the Pirelli Super Corsas. due to Bridgestone's contingency offer, I'm just wondering if they are equivalent to the Super Corsas.
Anyone have any news on the new Michelin Pilot Power Race's?
Hey! No fair threadjacking before I even get an answer >:( ;)
Sorry - Thi sdidn't make the original post:
One of our sub distrinutors is also a Bridgestone sub. He's a pretty sharp dude and can answer all of your questions. Email me for his addy.
H-Man - Why don't you contact you local MICHLIN DISTRIBUTOR. We are now a full fledged Distributor (not a sub-distributor).
The Pilot Power Race:
The Power Race relies heavily on technology developed for MotoGP racing, where Michelin dominates the world championship. The new Power Race series includes the first ever commercially available dual-compound DOT racing tires.
A new semi-slick tread pattern gives the Power Race exceptional grip, particularly at full lean, while the tread grooves are oriented to evacuate water from the contact patch in damp track conditions. New front and rear profiles actually help shift the bikes weight bias toward the front, for better feedback under braking.
Unlike some ultra high-performance tires, which are down-rated to V or W speed indices, all Power Race tires carry the (W) index for speeds in excess of 168mph. This not only simplifies tire selection, but also confirms that the Power Race meets the highest certification standards.
• Power Race Medium: intermediate compound in the center, soft compound on the shoulders.
• Power Race Medium Soft: intermediate compound in the center, extra-soft compound on the shoulders.
• Power Race Soft: soft compound overall; no dual-compound.
This is the technology that basically got Michelin banned from WSB.
Monte
www.sportbiketracktime.com
QuoteHey! No fair threadjacking before I even get an answer >:( ;)
Hey, the title says tires!!! ;) :P
Sorry bout that.
No worries R1. My comment was really tongue in cheek. Threads get highjacked all the time.
To tell you the truth. The thread was originally titles "Bridgestone tires". It had a lot of hits but no comments, so I antered the title.
No harm, no foul.
I know two guys who are very good riders who used the Power Race for both TDs and 2 of Fasttrax's 3 hour endurance races.
They loved the performance of the Powers and what you don't read in all of Monte's blah, blah, blah above ;) is that unlike all the previous Michelins, the Powers reach operating temp. very quickly. The Powers held up fir an entire endurance race at a pretty good pace on a GSX-R 750.
H.
Anywho.... Can anyone share information about Bridgestones that's along the line of:
Michelins: Stick like a mother f*cker but give little feedback at the limit and let go in a big catastrophic manner.
Dunlops: Stick good, slide early & talkative, wear fast, wobbly rear at high speeds
Pirellis: Stick good, wear well, slide progressively, "talk to you" before they set you on the floor, cost a lot.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Pilot Power Sport - I tested some in August.
Yes, they were designed to be tire warmer optional
I was about 1.5 seconds off my fastest times at Blackhawk with them. I was running 1.13's or so with them. They weren't as good as the Pilot Race tires...H2 rear, S2 front, etc., but I was kind of shocked.
Michelin's and sliding.
Ok, this might have been really true a long time ago, but when I returned to production 600's in 1999 after riding vintage bikes for owners for a few years, the Michelin toss thing was quite a bit different. Changes every year.
Michelin's have high grip. That means more traction. Would you like less traction? Draw yourself a graph with a curve on it. The Michelin has higher grip. When it runs out of traction, yeah, it's gonna slip. The older tires would spin more abruptly. If you were paying attention, you would get to the high grip point, then the tiire would begin to spin but drive forward rather than drive sideways.
Pirelli's - Raced on them during the 2001 season. Dramatically shorter tire life. Decent feel, but when the tires are worn, they drive sideways a lot. The grip on the Michelin's was higher and the tire would continue to dirve forward rather than sideways a lot longer.
Bridgestone. Raced on them a bit in 1993. Haven't since. There was one guy racing on them toward the front at local CCS events. He switched to Michelins. I know stuff about the feel of them, but I won't elaborate on them as I don't have the first hand knowledge. I don't think the race tires are BT001's and 2's anymore either.
Dunlop's...haven't really been on any for quite a while. Years ago, they were "more predictable" like the Pirelli.
H, if you were going to do track days and maybe a few races, I'd probably recommend the Michelin Pilot Power Sports. Durability, good traction, better siping (Lonny Michaels proved that the weekend I tested them by winning GTO on them), durability (I was impressed), and all.
On the other side of the coin, I see no reason to race or track ride on anything other than Dunlop, Michelin, or Pirelli. You can bet that you'll get support on these tires at almost anywhere you go.
Thank you SD. You've given me some info to toss into the decision algorithim.
I suppose if we run out of things to talk about we can talk about this briefly this Saturday. Hope to see you then.
H-man
I'll be there. 8)
QuoteI suppose if we run out of things to talk about we can talk about this briefly this Saturday. Hope to see you then.
H-man
For more info on Bridgestone, you should look up Gary Palmer at the banquet. He ran 'Stones on his Ducati 800 all season and was turning :16s and quicker at BFR. He swears by them and their contingency program, which I understand pays more for wins, but doesn't pay as deeply as other brands.
Bridgestone DOTs need a bit of work in the R & D department IMO...
I raced 001's at the beginning of last season, then went to the 002's around mid season. I'm not by any means "one of the faster guys" but have run a wide range of tires. My personall opinion of the 001's is not very good. I thought they started lacking grip after the first session or two, they would start spinning excessivly and you would start losing drive, the 002's seemed to last a bit longer and offered decent grip right up until the end. For an amature club racer I thought they where a decent tire and I was willing to sacrifice the difference in grip from say the Michelins to save some $.
Guys like SD and Johnson (front running experts) would probably out ride these Bridgestones and would not be willing to trade grip for $$, hence why Johnson probably went to Michelins towards the end of the year.
Bridgestone slicks seemed to be on par with the others but that's a whole nother topic...
Ok, since my name is brought up...
Someone said, I'll paraphrase, if you're slower you can probably ride on a "less" tire than someone faster.
I didn't agree at all.
After spending $100k's of thousands of dollars of my money, time, and effort...I learned how bikes work, and I learned how to ride, and I learned how things feel.
A slower rider probably doesn't have the knowledge or feel to have enough cushion to ride on a tire with "less". Afford one's self something reasonable.
QuoteA slower rider probably doesn't have the knowledge or feel to have enough cushion to ride on a tire with "less". Afford one's self something reasonable.
That is something to think about...
I guess it would make sense that a lesser rider should be on a better tire.
Personally I have changed tires, and corrected for the changed chasis geometry and not run any faster on the Michelin Pilot race tires than on the 002's, so for me it seemed like a good idea to try and save cash in that area. Same with the slicks...but that's just been my experience.
Try them all and pick the one you like best H.
H, I am going to try Michelin slicks this year because Pirelli's price is going thru the roof (been increasing every year). At similar or less $$$, Michelin becomes a natural pick for me plus everyone says it's got more grip. I'll let you know how Michelin slick is if you care to find out. Of course, I am not sure if I'll have the chance to find out how it is when it starts spinning with my underpowered 400...........but I can tell you that Pirelli definitely drives sideways when it starts spinning. ;)
Quotewith my underpowered 400....but...
Oh no! :o Here we go again ::) :P
Just messin' witcha Sunny ;)
Seriously though, I plan to compete in...er... make that be in Thunderbike, F40LW and V7MW over in WERA (still debating Senior SBK since WERA doesn't break up the SSBK by age or size).
Slicks aren't allowed for Thunderbike or on a F2 in F40LW. So I'm looking exclusively at DOT race buns.
QuoteTry them all and pick the one you like best H.
You're probably right Eddie (and once again, but from over on this BBS,
CONGRATS!).
I'm just trying to ease my way on up the learning curve through the experience and advice of others.
I've got a pretty good lead on SC take-offs ;). I was just looking at fresh buns and Stick has the Stones avail at a good price and offers contingency. From what I hear, the grids for V7MW aren't large enough to qualify for the Pirelli continency. Maybe Pirelli doesn't even offer contingency for vintage. I hadn't looked at that.
In that case, I like the Pirelli DOT better than the Michelin S2/M2. However, I never rode these tire on the same bike (Pirelli on my 400 and R6, Michelin on 748/996).
QuoteStick has the Stones.
;D And I wasn't even trying to be funny 8)
QuoteIn that case, I like the Pirelli DOT better than the Michelin S2/M2. However, I never rode these tire on the same bike (Pirelli on my 400 and R6, Michelin on 748/996).
You probably haven't ridden on the '05 Michelin stuff.
It's quite a bit different. New carcasses, etc.
No, I haven't. I guess I should give them a try. What combination do you suggest I go for? S2 front/M2 rear? Actually, WERA D class allows slicks, should I bother with S2/M2 at all? I definitely didn't feel any noticeable difference in Pirelli DOT and slicks.
Don't know what the new stuff will be called.
I used an S2 front and an H2 rear regularly at Blackhawk. We'd have some different stuff to test.
But, honestly, the new Pilot Power Sport rear, which IS and honest to goodness street tire, gave me similar feedback to the H2 rear race tire. I was a bit shocked.
So, I don't know what will work for you. And sometimes, we had some tires that worked better in some places than others.
Thanks. Keep us updated with your tire testing!
this is to funny!!!!!!!!!!!
Michelin guys say Michelin, go figure
Pirelli's drive sideways when they start spinning, Ha,Ha
This is to funny.
Baker
Quotethis is to funny!!!!!!!!!!!
.... Ha,Ha. This is to funny.
Baker
No Joke BRG. YOu've got the word on this one. I started out asking about one specific brand and have received a lot of side info.
Thanks Chuck :) Your info is right along the line of what I was hoping to learn 8)
H-man
Don't listen to Sunny. Seriously.
I'll put a smiley here, but spitting out facts and opinions, meshed together with excuses is a recipe for disaster.
It's hard enough to decipher all the two cents one can get from all angles, but then you throw Sunny's input in there and it's bound to put you on your head.
:)
QuoteDon't listen to Sunny. Seriously.
I'll put a smiley here, but spitting out facts and opinions, meshed together with excuses is a recipe for disaster.
It's hard enough to decipher all the two cents one can get from all angles, but then you throw Sunny's input in there and it's bound to put you on your head.
:)
I thought that the BBS was THE place to learn about racing?????
Yeah Eddie, what's with the anti-Sunny thing? ???
Just sharing my opinion/experience like others.......... I didn't tell anyone to use any particular tire. I only said I rode the Pirelli DOT/slick and Michelin S2/M2, and in my experience, the Pirelli definitely drive sideways when spinning. Is that so wrong? If you know something we don't, why don't you share it? ???
See .. it's not that I'm *anti-Sunny* .. It's just that I find myself dazed, confused, hallucinating, questioning my own morals, wanting to run into a wall, etc. whenever you start posting. Maybe it's some sort of frequency glitch over the bandwidth that's causing this because things are great all the other times when we chat.
When are you guys planning on coming out to Kart 2 Kart to ride? ;D
edit: in the end, I think the convulsions are coming from you talking about side grip and excessively spinning the rear tire on a 400. It's a personal pet peeve of mine I think. People always talking about "spinning it up", when they really aren't. I ride the SV and rarely ever spin the tire. I don't believe it happens as much as people talk about it.
(although I did just show my boss the footage of me laying black strips at Nelson before the rear tire let go and almost flipped me off - now *that* was cool! ;D )
Hmmmmmm............maybe you read too much into what I said.................stay open minded! ;D ;)
I never said anything about excessively spinning the rear tire on a 400! The only time I spin it up (and felt it) was at the end of the tire life (a little longer with my speed)! Note, I ran that same rear tire for like 4 race weekends before that happened. I remember telling you about the tire spinning at Beaverun (second times we were there in 2004) when it happened, and you told me it may be due to my body positioning. Anyway, I couldn't spin up the rear when the tire is fresh.
Ok now, let me know when you'll be at K2K, and I'll join you for some go-kart lessons! I am assuming you are not talking about the minibike thing as I don't have one.
QuoteI don't remember saying that tire spin was directly related to body positioning, but I'm sure something relative to that was discussed in the context of our conversation.
I'll let you know about K2K .. I know there's going to be a "Witchkraft" event there in February.
QuoteI thought that the BBS was THE place to learn about racing?????
It
is isn't it? I mean I detect a bit of sarcasim in your post :o :o :o
Isn't this the place where nearly everyone's a Jeremy Burgess, Frankie Chile or Valentino Rossi?
If not, I'm shocked! Shocked I say.
Hey H, I am no Valentino, but I am Jackie Chan! ::) ;D
Joke aside, hopefully I didn't express myself as "telling you what you should do". I really just try to share what I experienced.
QuoteI'll let you know about K2K .. I know there's going to be a "Witchkraft" event there in February.
Cool. Will definitely join you! Need to buy you and your father at least a drink for all the "tool borrowing" to fix Ryan's frequently crashed R6's..........
QuoteHey H, I am no Valentino, but I am Jackie Chan! ::) ;D
Which martial art and what style?
I've an interest in it from a past life. I've learned combination techniques from various styles. All aimed at efficiency. More the jutsu versus the jitsu (i.e., the science vs. the art).
QuoteIt's just that I find myself dazed, confused, hallucinating, questioning my own morals, wanting to run into a wall, etc. whenever you start posting.
Seriously laughed out loud when I read this earlier. This BBS has been a nice distraction from work every now and again.
Now let's see what other devilry can be done and other cages can be shaken.
Yes.... I see H-Hopper.
When you can snatch this pebble from my hand then, and only then will you be ready for a white plate!
LOL.. I crack myself up...
Amatuer to the board/
Professional Experienced in the tire world
BT002 Moto GP inspired racing DOT, Simply put those guys are going faster than every one I know.
Fuchs Kawasaki, Camel Hondapons
and Now Ducati for 2005.
Bridgestone /Michelin has been at the top of tire manufacturing since two wheel time began
Since Bridgestone and Michelin are leading the Moto gp world my money is on the These two. also In Road racing, Motocross, and Supercross. Real Riders and Racers Tell their team this is the tire we should run because the product is the Best.
Where is Dunlop? having to pay and free tire every factory racing team in the USA
Pirelli is focusing on a Developing tires for a series that should have been extinct. two years ago.
Now back to your Question How do the Bridgestones
Work?
The Bt001 was a good racing tire, with good initial grip, and a predictable driving slide. They did seem to spin on the third session, mostly cause i was getting used to the spin, and thus increasing the rpm's which translated to faster mid straight speeds.
The new BT002, design incorporated MOTO GP advancements, and Formula One Technologies.
The absolute fastest types of Asphault Racing known to man.
In 2004 The Bridgestone Company came up with an all new Carcas, Belt, Tread design, and New improved Compounds. 2,3,and 4, 4 being the softest.
Why new more flexible Carcas, not as flemsy as the Pirelli, not as stiff as the Dunlop, thus allowing the tire to heat up faster, and more forgiving to bumps in the asphault
New Belt for lighter stronger construction,
New Tread design for more slick like action at full lean angles, and a tire that is designed to maintain grip through the tire life. Actually becoming more like a slick as it wears out." Technology from Formula one" Faster at the end of a race when your pushing the limits for wins
New Compounds offer stickier effect, and longer lasting. also benificial to giving excatly the traction needed to advance your results, Selection designed for the type of racing a person is doing. Sprint, all day racing, and Endurance Events
New Profiles for better turn in and better full lean grip,
I feel the B Brand are eclipsing the P brands, with simalarities, and attributes that top P riders have been complaining about being that P was the best Dot in Prior years.
The consistency of production, shows that manufacturing techniques are advancing just as fast as the Tire it self
Sorry for the elongated Answer, but the Question was needing some actual reasons. as to what is the BEST
Thanks for the info Eric. It wasn't long winded either.
Say, who was that stranger?
That's no stranger. That was .... ;)
That was good. Ya had me laughing too Monte ;D ;D
QuoteWhich martial art and what style?
I've an interest in it from a past life. I've learned combination techniques from various styles. All aimed at efficiency. More the jutsu versus the jitsu (i.e., the science vs. the art).
Various different types, didn't specialize in any. I too focus on efficiency. While training, I like the kicking parts better though.
Good stuff Eric! Although I think your English/typos confuses me a bit............
QuoteAmatuer to the board/
Professional Experienced in the tire world
BT002 Moto GP inspired racing DOT, Simply put those guys are going faster than every one I know.
Fuchs Kawasaki, Camel Hondapons
and Now Ducati for 2005.
Bridgestone /Michelin has been at the top of tire manufacturing since two wheel time began
Since Bridgestone and Michelin are leading the Moto gp world my money is on the These two. also In Road racing, Motocross, and Supercross. Real Riders and Racers Tell their team this is the tire we should run because the product is the Best.
Where is Dunlop? having to pay and free tire every factory racing team in the USA
Pirelli is focusing on a Developing tires for a series that should have been extinct. two years ago.
Now back to your Question How do the Bridgestones
Work?
The Bt001 was a good racing tire, with good initial grip, and a predictable driving slide. They did seem to spin on the third session, mostly cause i was getting used to the spin, and thus increasing the rpm's which translated to faster mid straight speeds.
The new BT002, design incorporated MOTO GP advancements, and Formula One Technologies.
The absolute fastest types of Asphault Racing known to man.
In 2004 The Bridgestone Company came up with an all new Carcas, Belt, Tread design, and New improved Compounds. 2,3,and 4, 4 being the softest.
Why new more flexible Carcas, not as flemsy as the Pirelli, not as stiff as the Dunlop, thus allowing the tire to heat up faster, and more forgiving to bumps in the asphault
New Belt for lighter stronger construction,
New Tread design for more slick like action at full lean angles, and a tire that is designed to maintain grip through the tire life. Actually becoming more like a slick as it wears out." Technology from Formula one" Faster at the end of a race when your pushing the limits for wins
New Compounds offer stickier effect, and longer lasting. also benificial to giving excatly the traction needed to advance your results, Selection designed for the type of racing a person is doing. Sprint, all day racing, and Endurance Events
New Profiles for better turn in and better full lean grip,
I feel the B Brand are eclipsing the P brands, with simalarities, and attributes that top P riders have been complaining about being that P was the best Dot in Prior years.
The consistency of production, shows that manufacturing techniques are advancing just as fast as the Tire it self
Sorry for the elongated Answer, but the Question was needing some actual reasons. as to what is the BEST
At least it's an unbiased opinion. :)
QuoteAt least it's an unbiased opinion. :)
I disagree, but........ Anyway, still good information!
Unbiased.
I started racing in 1987. Dunlops. K391 front and a prototype rear that became the K591. Dunlop slicks then. Raced an RZ350 that had Michelin Hi-Sports. Used the first Dunlop Radials, the Sportmax. Won races on them. Raced on Michelin TX11's and TX23's of various origins and designs. Won a lot of races. Raced on Avon's in AMA events. Thirteenth in 750 Supersport at Laguna in the rain on a 600..AM22's and AM23's. Raced on Dunlop 364's, Sportmax II's. Raced on Bridgestones, but not for long. Vintage bikes...K591's, and the various Dunlop "vintage" tires. Also Avons. Returned to 600's on Michelins. The Michelin tire contingency dropped off the face of the earth and I raced on Pirelli's, and we won three endurance championships in two years. Michelin recommitted to contingency, and I have been on Michelin's the previous two sesaons.
Experience is different than bias.
How were the Avons? :)
I won races on them. The contour of the tire was dramatically different from the Dunlops and Michelins and required a different set up.
Bias ply in 1993. 1994 they went to a radial tire, but they were reluctatant to let me use them at Daytona. Did very well at Daytona in March, got a third behind that Mike Hale guy on a Factory Camel Honda (the factory teams used to race and practice in CCS stuff before politics got weird) and Randy Renfrow (RIP). Carried a number one plate too...was kind of neat. Big fields then. We had 105 entries for the 80 spots on the AMA 600 Supersport grid. Things are different now.
Anyway, the Avons were decent. Didn't have the longevity of Michelins and Dunlops at that time. So, if you were trying to do a nine race weekend, eventually, the traction would just collapse. Haven't been on any very recently.
Sometimes where the development comes from takes a toll on everything. Asphalt in Europe is different from what it is here. So, what works good there doesn't necessarily work well here.
The Avons were developed in England where temperatures were a little less than what we had in Topeka, Kansas in July. We did some temperature testing at Daytona that March and they were "really concerned" at the temperatures they were getting.
QuoteSometimes where the development comes from takes a toll on everything. Asphalt in Europe is different from what it is here. So, what works good there doesn't necessarily work well here.
That's my point of view. The fact that Moto GP is on Michelins, and that Bridgestone is recently a player within the past year doesn't do much for club/privateer racers. Even at the AMA level, the Dunlops there aren't the Dunlops privateers are getting, so it's often an apples to oranges comparison.
QuoteThe fact that Moto GP is on Michelins, and that Bridgestone is recently a player within the past year doesn't do much for club/privateer racers
I see your point, but it's not true.
I raced on tires at Daytona that had carcasses that were directly related to the MotoGP development. We had a couple of take off DOT's with that carcass at the end of 2003. That carcass is being used in the new Michelin Pilot Power Sport and what ever they will call the new Michelin race tire.
Similar stuff happens for Dunlop too. I remember some of the larger Dunlop K591's were exactly as the slicks but just in a different mold.
If you're not buying your tires from your local, friendly race distributor, you might not be getting the up to date stuff.
I am, but I know you/we aren't getting the same Dunlops or Michelins that Mladin and Bostom are/were getting. I agree that the technology trickles down, but that's it.
QuoteI am, but I know you/we aren't getting the same Dunlops or Michelins that Mladin and Bostom are/were getting. I agree that the technology trickles down, but that's it.
Well, no, but they are racing on 16.5's. But the team that I was consulting with in 2003...there was direct availability of the exact same tires that Mladin and Bostrom (Ben) were using...Dunlops.