I have to blow off some steam after my trip to the Ford dealership today. For those that don't know, I have an '02 F-250 S/D with a 7.3L Diesel (which is for sale ;)) and I recently purchased an '03 F-350 S/D with the newer 6.0L Diesel.
I noticed that the new truck seems like the fuel filter is getting plugged (supposed to be changed every 15,000 miles) and since I don't know when or if it was ever changed I decided to do it. So figuring I would just do this myself I decide to go to the local auto parts store to buy a fuel filter, while driving there I decided I would also get an oil and air filter too. I get to the store and they don't have any of these items, not even a place for them. Looking in the book the only 1 that even listed a part number was for the oil filter. The '05 model is the 3rd model year to offer this engine, so I thought it was really strange that no aftermarket stuff was available yet?
So since I absolutely needed to get the fuel filter I figured I would have to go to the Ford dealership and pay the higher price, while I'm there I figured I might as well get all 3 filters I need. The parts guy at Ford goes and gets everything and returns and asks me "Are you SURE you need all 3 of these filters?", I asked him why and he said that they were kind of expensive. I previously have purchased all of these items from the auto parts store for my 7.3L Diesel and it would cost about $40 out the door, so I figured they would gouge me like $50 to $60 from the dealership. Beyond that the auto manufacturers are trying to go to a 'locked hood' or 'shielded engine' policy that would prohibit owners from having access to their engine so the dealerships would have to perform ALL service to the vehicle, just another way to charge inflated prices.
So the parts guy tells me that out the door the 3 filters I want (fuel, air, & oil) would cost me $250! :o OMG, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! >:( He goes on to show me that the air filter is a big molded plasic unit like some semi's have, the oil filter is no longer a quick spin on type - but instead a cartridge, and the fuel filter is no longer a quick spin on type either - it's now a 2 filter cartridge 'kit'. After seeing the fuel filter kit I notice that the instructions boldly say that those items are patented and are to be exclusively sold by Ford, no wonder they weren't available at the auto parts store.
From what I have heard Trucks and SUV's are some of the highest profit margin vehicles sold in mass quantity today. I'm extremely disappointed in the GREED the auto manufacturers are showing in making 'wear items' such as these much more elaborate and unneccesarily expensive all in the name of screwing us, the customer! >:(
Mike (I assume you have a 4x4 350 superduty).
Auto zone has the Deutsch fuel filter for $69.95
STP Air filter for $74.99 :o
STP Oil filter for $17.99 or a K&N for $15.99
I'm sure theres a Autozone in Rockford.:D
Hope that helps.
BTW you didnt go to Rock River Ford did ya? I wouldnt buy a light bulb from that place.
Buy a foreign car next time, and change the oil every 30k miles ;D :P
Yes Rob it was Rock River Ford, the only Ford dealer in Rockford.
The prices from Ford without tax were:
Oil Filter Kit $41
Fuel Filter $90
Air Filter $ 105!
Even going with the products you found it's still going to run about $185 out the door, for FILTERS! Then I still have to buy 15 quarts of oil after that which will push it up to around $210 for me doing all the work of changing the 3 filters and doing the oil change. Outragous! Still pissed! >:(
Mike maybe in 2 yrs after this motor design is 5 yrs old parts will be better priced and more available.
BTW Ever try Manley Ford in Belevedere? Or head north a bit to Beloit Ford?
so you guys know, I wasn't trying to be an ass when I made my comment:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/automotive/4037126/detail.html
buy a chevy ;D
I myself have a 6.0.The filters are kind of expensive but I paid a little less for dealer cost. Check on ebay and You will find the filters cheaper there,I bought a case of oil filters for around $100 and have bought the fuel filter kits for about $50 8)
Quotebuy a chevy ;D
Had one. Rather have a horse and buggy since thats more reliable than a chevy. ;D ;D ;D
Hey Mike, go to Ebay next time and save a ton.
Skip the foreign junk and save a job. ;D
After $55 for a fuel filter on our '99 7.3 I started shopping around. Ford wrenches seem to have their own profit sharing plans.
Quote
Ford wrenches seem to have their own profit sharing plans.
Hehehe. ;D
The stuff ain't cheap.
2 hints.
1) Try going to an International dealer next time for the fuel and oil filters. The 6.0 PSD is the same thing as the current T444E sold in medium-duty International trucks. I think there is a dealer in Rockford... if not, there is Freund International, right down the road from me here in Huntley.
2) You might also want to see if you can get the stuff from Hypermax Engineering. There is a chance they may have it for less than the stealership. http://www.hypermaxdiesel.com/ They're also right near me in Gilberts.
Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate it.
I wasn't really expecting having to pay 6x what I had for the same 3 filters on my 7.3L Diesel. I was both mad and disappointed at the same time. Being that I am in manufacturing I see stuff like this and it just pisses me off because their just shooting themselves in the foot by doing stuff like this. Overpricing expenses on your product will drive people away from U.S. products right to the foreign competition waiting in the wings ready to take in new customers. Way to go Ford. >:(
Quote The 6.0 PSD is the same thing as the current T444E sold in medium-duty International trucks.
Don't know about that.
444 refers to engine size... 444ci is 7.3 liters.... The previous motor. There are things, like water pumps and all, that are completely different between them.
I don't know how the change in Ford's International 6.0 is in production on the International line.
Chevy...Isuzu...
While we're on the topic of the global economy...
Anyone ever try to buy things that are not made in China? I guess I'm struggling with this one lately. I've noticed that I've lived in the United States for all my life. I think it's been pretty good.
I have kids.
I grew up with legos and tinker toys and stuff.
They have legos, but then there are these "Built To Rule" toys and "Mega Blocks" things.... They are made in China, and they just plain suck. I don't think legos are made in the US...are they, but not China.
It's to a point that the boys and I look at toys and figure out where they come from...if they are from China...well, they aren't going to last. Why spend the money?
And is the availability of those parts based in part on greed or volume?
How many 7.3 PSD"s are in use from the 94.5 era on....
Now 6.0 PSD's?
Big difference.
QuoteBTW Ever try Manley Ford in Belevedere?
It's spelled "B E L V
I D E R E"!
I ought to know, I was born there.
QuoteAnd is the availability of those parts based in part on greed or volume?
How many 7.3 PSD"s are in use from the 94.5 era on....
Now 6.0 PSD's?
Big difference.
I had considered this myself Dave, but if you look at the oil filter for example it's just a drop in paper filter element without any metal at all, the cost to produce that thing would be far cheaper than the metal screw on filters. The fuel filter is the same way, just the element, you no longer replace the fancy looking plastic assembly on top of it everytime.
The cost savings of producing a paper element only style cartridge should have easily offset the cost savings involved in producing the more expensive metal screw on oil filter and fancy plastic top to the fuel filter on the 7.3L engines. The other issue is with new tooling costs, but with the quantity of these engines that are produced the new tooling would have been paid for easily in the 1st 1 or 2 years of production (all while generating a profit the whole time).
QuoteIt's to a point that the boys and I look at toys and figure out where they come from...if they are from China...well, they aren't going to last. Why spend the money?
The one thing that I was glad to see was that the fuel filter was a standard Motorcraft filter and it was indeed made in the U.S.A., that helped to ease the pain a little bit. The oil filter was made in Germany, better than it coming from China any day.
QuoteIt's spelled "B E L V I D E R E"!
I ought to know, I was born there.
Belvedere
Belvedere
Belvedere
Belvedere
Belvedere
Belvedere
;D ;D ;D
I have an '03 F-250 6.0 ltr.
15K on a fuel filter? I'll check but that seems a little soon to me. I'm changing mine at 28K next week. I haven't had any problems. Also, why are you changing air filter at 15K? That should go 30K with no problem if not more.
Buy the K&N air filter, it's life time.
Before going the K&N route I would do some research the AFe seems to be better in most tests for total dirt deposited and size of dirt deposited. The K&N on bikes I have seen rob 3-4 hp on a 750.I would avoid the K&N at this point.(even though I am a friend of N) as there are better products even OEM is better in most cases
QuoteI have an '03 F-250 6.0 ltr.
15K on a fuel filter? I'll check but that seems a little soon to me. I'm changing mine at 28K next week. I haven't had any problems. Also, why are you changing air filter at 15K? That should go 30K with no problem if not more.
Buy the K&N air filter, it's life time.
My truck has 36,000 miles on it and since I bought it from a dealer I have no idea what maintenance, if any, has been performed on the vehicle. Since air filters are generally dirt cheap I didn't even think twice about not replacing it at the same time as the other filters, till I heard the price. You might want to take a look at that thing, it's a monster, I don't know if K&N has one for that.
The recommended replacement schedule for the fuel filter on the Ford Diesels is 15,000 miles. Included in the 'kit' for the fuel filter is also a water filter for the fuel as well. If your changing it yourself as I did, the water separator is located along the frame rail under the drivers seat. The fuel filter is the smaller round black plastic screw on cap located in the top-middle-front of the engine. The larger similar cap is the oil filter and is a drop in cartridge as well. Either of those filters is very quick and easy to replace, the water filter is a little trickier since it's under the truck and horizontally mounted. If you do the water filter it's going to spill 2 or 3 cups of diesel fuel as you unscrew it, that filter also is in there fairly firm so you have to tug on it to remove it.
The reason I am doing this is because I have had a problem with the engine acting like it's starving for fuel when I accelerate hard, like when merging on the interstate. Changing the fuel/water filter combo seems to have solved the problem. My stepdad says most likely it was the water filter that was doing it, either way it seems like it's fixed. :)
I dont know how ford dealerships work
At the chevy stealership that I worked at if the part cost us 100.00 from chevolet, we charged the walk in customer 170.00 for it, other repair shops would pay 140.00 for the part.
This is every dealership not just ours.
Call them and tell them you are a new repair shop and you would like to order some parts from them and your parts jocky will be by to pick them up and pay with cash....could save you 30%
Man they are just bending you recreational diesel guys over!!
We have a Renegade Toterhome on a F112 Freightliner Chassis and a C-12 Caterpiller (450 HP 1700 ftlb torque) and to get an oil change and chassis lube with 2 fuel filters I pay.................. $139 for Rotella or DeVac oil. And the thing takes enough oil to fill a kids wading pool. Air filters are $40 -$50 but they are the size of a house.
What so much for all of your guy's stuff seems like a big ass rip-off to me.
Volume?
How many miles does a Cat motor get on it while in service with a proper company that's hauling freight? 200k miles a year? Everything gets somewhere by freight. Probably a lot more air filters being sold for Cat's other motors than the Power Strokes, little Cummins, and the Duramax's.
your experience is EXACTLY why a bought a Dodge with the Cummins diesel. Sure it's not a true "crew" cab and the interior is nowhere near the quality/layout that the F150s have, but it has a industrial diesel engine that is far superior to the PSD.
QuoteVolume?
How many miles does a Cat motor get on it while in service with a proper company that's hauling freight? 200k miles a year? Everything gets somewhere by freight. Probably a lot more air filters being sold for Cat's other motors than the Power Strokes, little Cummins, and the Duramax's.
Hey,
My phones on, you can call any time.... ;)
QuoteSo since I absolutely needed to get the fuel filter I figured I would have to go to the Ford dealership and pay the higher price, while I'm there I figured I might as well get all 3 filters I need. The parts guy at Ford goes and gets everything and returns and asks me "Are you SURE you need all 3 of these filters?", I asked him why and he said that they were kind of expensive. I previously have purchased all of these items from the auto parts store for my 7.3L Diesel and it would cost about $40 out the door, so I figured they would gouge me like $50 to $60 from the dealership. Beyond that the auto manufacturers are trying to go to a 'locked hood' or 'shielded engine' policy that would prohibit owners from having access to their engine so the dealerships would have to perform ALL service to the vehicle, just another way to charge inflated prices.
So the parts guy tells me that out the door the 3 filters I want (fuel, air, & oil) would cost me $250! :o OMG, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! >:( He goes on to show me that the air filter is a big molded plasic unit like some semi's have, the oil filter is no longer a quick spin on type - but instead a cartridge, and the fuel filter is no longer a quick spin on type either - it's now a 2 filter cartridge 'kit'. After seeing the fuel filter kit I notice that the instructions boldly say that those items are patented and are to be exclusively sold by Ford, no wonder they weren't available at the auto parts store.
From what I have heard Trucks and SUV's are some of the highest profit margin vehicles sold in mass quantity today. I'm extremely disappointed in the GREED the auto manufacturers are showing in making 'wear items' such as these much more elaborate and unneccesarily expensive all in the name of screwing us, the customer! >:(
Dealerships don't really make money on selling new vehicles (not enough to survive). They make their living on parts and service............. Doesn't matter which manufacturers you would like to talk about (American/European/Japanese/Korean).
Yes, trucks and SUVs generate more profits for the auto makers in general.
Greedy is what makes rich richer.............
Why don't you stick with your 7.3L? Is there something wrong with the '02 F-250, or you simply need something bigger?
QuoteBuy a foreign car next time, and change the oil every 30k miles ;D :P
What kind of car are you talking about here? I am not aware of any car which is recommend to run A 30k oil change interval. This is a sure way to void any warranty that comes with the car...............
QuoteYes Rob it was Rock River Ford, the only Ford dealer in Rockford.
The prices from Ford without tax were:
Oil Filter Kit ?$41
Fuel Filter ??$90
Air Filter ???$ 105!
Even going with the products you found it's still going to run about $185 out the door, for FILTERS! Then I still have to buy 15 quarts of oil after that which will push it up to around $210 for me doing all the work of changing the 3 filters and doing the oil change. Outragous! Still pissed! >:(
I believe in general that any diesel vehicle will cost you more than any gasoline vehicle in oil/filters change (even a VW TDI). Just part of the price to pay for better mileage I guess.
Just pray that you'll never have to rebuild a diesel. It'll cost you an arm and a leg (way higher than the gasoline engine).
QuoteI believe in general that any diesel vehicle will cost you more than any gasoline vehicle in oil/filters change (even a VW TDI). Just part of the price to pay for better mileage I guess.
Just pray that you'll never have to rebuild a diesel. It'll cost you an arm and a leg (way higher than the gasoline engine).
Mine has a 500,000 mile warranty, so i think I'm safe on the rebuild thing...
QuoteMine has a 500,000 mile warranty, so i think I'm safe on the rebuild thing...
Happy New Year Monte and Bonnie!
Cool! I believe an industrial diesel like yours is built to last at least 1M mile. Hopefully no rebuild is required before you hit that.
PSD not industrial?
Well, I figure at the 300k mark, I'll look at replacing the injector pump.
Not a reason why I won't last above 500k.
And mine is older.
Cost?
I have to pull a trailer.
I doubled my mileage, at least, compared to my gas motor alone.
The gas motor was always trying to catch up. I was physically hot. I mean, when you got out to pump gas, it was not a place you wanted to be.
Diesel...it really could care less. I could go to a 28 foot trailer no problem.
Mainentance? Well, yeah it takes more oil. Oils pretty cheap.
Yeah, the oil filter is more expensive, but air filters and all can be kind of similar.
I saved $1800 by having the diesel the first year just because of fuel savings.
Show me where they are bad.
Greed...
Isn't this the start of all this?
Someone go make an engine, market it, continuing R&D, warranty, upgrades, support.
The part is a part made out of a couple of things. Make that yourself out of whatever parts you feel make up the whole. You'll have a nice air filter.
But who's going to stock the part, who's going to order it, who will actually call you when it's in...
Do I need to go on?
What's your job?
Your toola have any costs? Any education? How about insurance?
Folks, the economy is here to bear what you want.
Anyone can make something cheaper, but will it fit the exact needs and changes?
Yeah, you can buy one kind of tire for X dollars, but another will cost less.
Is that the only quality we're looking for? No, traction, durability, etc.
Rich get richer?
Tell me the parts guy is rich...
How about the UPS guy.
Yeah, maybe some stock holders...
Anyone got a 401k? You might be one of them.
It's really an intertwined circle.
QuotePSD not industrial?
Well, I figure at the 300k mark, I'll look at replacing the injector pump.
Not a reason why I won't last above 500k.
And mine is older.
Cost?
I have to pull a trailer.
I doubled my mileage, at least, compared to my gas motor alone.
The gas motor was always trying to catch up. I was physically hot. I mean, when you got out to pump gas, it was not a place you wanted to be.
Diesel...it really could care less. I could go to a 28 foot trailer no problem.
Mainentance? Well, yeah it takes more oil. Oils pretty cheap.
Yeah, the oil filter is more expensive, but air filters and all can be kind of similar.
I saved $1800 by having the diesel the first year just because of fuel savings.
Show me where they are bad.
Greed...
Isn't this the start of all this?
Someone go make an engine, market it, continuing R&D, warranty, upgrades, support.
The part is a part made out of a couple of things. Make that yourself out of whatever parts you feel make up the whole. You'll have a nice air filter.
But who's going to stock the part, who's going to order it, who will actually call you when it's in...
Do I need to go on?
What's your job?
Your toola have any costs? Any education? How about insurance?
Folks, the economy is here to bear what you want.
Anyone can make something cheaper, but will it fit the exact needs and changes?
Yeah, you can buy one kind of tire for X dollars, but another will cost less.
Is that the only quality we're looking for? No, traction, durability, etc.
Rich get richer?
Tell me the parts guy is rich...
How about the UPS guy.
Yeah, maybe some stock holders...
Anyone got a 401k? You might be one of them.
It's really an intertwined circle.
I WANT MY SHIRT!!
Dave, I am not sure if you are directing some of the above to me, but here are my 2 cents...........
Industrial.......not sure what the standard is (), but I am just pointing out a diesel say for a semi is built to last longer than a PSD in a Ford truck (design criteria/requirement)...........
I said the basic maintenance (oil/filters) may cost more for a diesel, but that's just part of the price to pay for better mileage. If you want a truck and need to pull something, there is no doubt that a diesel is a better if not best engine/powertrain choice.
I didn't say nor think diesel is bad at all. I am just saying that a diesel engine/powertran will cost a lot to rebuild (and cost more to begin with; initial investment).
Greed..........is the name of the game for those in business. No one makes anything for free, especially not the big corporation (the rich).
Rich does get richer. It's a fact, not a myth. No, parts guy isn't the rich I am talking about here (not even close to being called rich at all). I am talking about the manufacturers (big scale)/dealership owners (smaller scale) in this case.
QuoteI WANT MY SHIRT!!
Phone tag, you're it!
Check is at the shirt guy's place.
Logo getting finalized.
QuoteDave, I am not sure if you are directing some of the above to me, but here are my 2 cents...........
Industrial.......not sure what the standard is (), but I am just pointing out a diesel say for a semi is built to last longer than a PSD in a Ford truck (design criteria/requirement)...........
Ok, you're on...
Right, what's the standard.
7.3 PSD's are International engines...T444E. You can see them in International 4700 trucks. It's a medium duty truck.
It's not a semi engine. Exactly.
But is designed for long duty. Cast Iron Block and heads.
Dodge has (had) two V10's. The one they used to have in their trucks was the cast iron model. That was for long duty. Now they have the SRT10 truck with an aluminum V10...wouldn't last for severe long duty.
Anyway, the PSD is a medium duty block used in a "light duty" application...
QuoteI said the basic maintenance (oil/filters) may cost more for a diesel, but that's just part of the price to pay for better mileage. If you want a truck and need to pull something, there is no doubt that a diesel is a better if not best engine/powertrain choice.
Have we looked at the price for a somewhat similar power train package?
I know that the retail price of an air cleaner for a 5.4L at a local Ford store is $40. Certainly isn't going to pull a bigger trailer like the diesel.
How much does it cost to replace a Coil Over Plug? They get hot in towing applications. I think they are about $130 each (times eight...or ten...). No ignition on the diesel.
QuoteI didn't say nor think diesel is bad at all. I am just saying that a diesel engine/powertran will cost a lot to rebuild (and cost more to begin with; initial investment).
A diesel converts about 40% of it's fuel to power. Gas motors do about 33%. Rebuild? Again, I don't expect to ever rebuild my old bus. Might require an injector pump at like 300k...Do we think that a gas motor in the same application would need to be rebuilt at 200k? I think so.
QuoteGreed..........is the name of the game for those in business. No one makes anything for free, especially not the big corporation (the rich).
Profit is the name of the game for everyone. You don't make up for loss by selling a lot of it.
That's everyone, not just big corporations. Corporations might be able to spread out some losses over the life of a product or part that a smaller corp could not do.
Ferrari is a small corportation. I'm sure their margine in each car is much higher than the ones in each VW...
But because of volume, they don't make as much money overall. Right?
QuoteRich does get richer. It's a fact, not a myth. No, parts guy isn't the rich I am talking about here (not even close to being called rich at all). I am talking about the manufacturers (big scale)/dealership owners (smaller scale) in this case.
Well, rich get richer...
If you've got a lot of money, you can risk opportunities that those that don't have a lot of money can't risk.
I'm a good example. I put on schools, I teach, I can help. But I'll never be able to make an impact like some because I don't have the resources that someone else might.
Being well off isn't a crime...is it?
To answer Sunny, the reason I bought the '03 F350 Dually with the 6.0 Diesel was because I am looking to possibly go to a gooseneck trailer instead of a tag like I have now. My '02 F250 with the 7.3 Diesel doesn't legally have enough weight carrying capacity. A gooseneck will exert about twice the amount of load on the tow vehicle as a tag trailer of the same weight. Since I want to stay legal I looked for a Dually, the '03 truck was what I found that I liked. The 6.0 Diesel it came with was my only concern but I thought I would go ahead and take the chance.
As I stated before I could buy all the same Motorcraft filters for my 7.3 Diesel that the Dealership sells, but at a parts store, for about $40. Even with the costs at the dealership being somewhat higher I still had them do filter changes on my 7.3 during bad weather since I don't have an indoor place to work on my vehicle. The price was an acceptable fee for the work done so I had it done by the dealership. Well looking at the cost of having the same thing done on my 6.0 Diesel, I won't ever have the dealership do it, my butt will be out in the driveway in the middle of winter doing it. Making the new filters outrageously expensive in my opinion will definately help in steering business away from the dealership (filter & oil changes are easy money).
SuperDave, I realize you work at a Ford dealership, I would encourage you to go to the parts department and have them show you the fuel/water filter kit and the oil filter for an '03 F350 6.0 Diesel. Once you see how simple these filters are it will probably help to show my dissatisfaction with paying apx. $140 for them (after tax). :-/
Gooseneck...........you are definitely better off with the 350 than the 250. ;)
It's too bad that the filter designs had take a different route than most and hence caused an increase in the price for owners as a result. I am not sure if ease of changing was the major factor when cartridge type was chosen, but it definitely cost most due to new tooling instead of utilize commonly designed and already available filters. Plus, volume is also important as Dave pointed out as manufacturer needs to recover their tooling/investment cost on top of the set profit.
Anyway, shop around as most suggested. Buying filters direct (eliminating another middleman who does nothing but ordering and handling for profit) or on eBay should save you some $$$.