I am very displeased at the sudden change in venues and choice of dates for racers on the West Coast. The CCS Pacific region is now gone. Furthermore, any races held in California with the South West region are now folded as well. We all saw the demise of two regions here. The turn outs were falling off quite badly. But, why destroy the relationships that have been developed with the California racers by pulling out completely? This new schedule is making me change my mind on which organization to race with. I attended every single Pacific and Southwest event for the past two years.
We had racing at Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Las Vegas, and Firebird. We now have racing at Arroyo Secco, Las Vegas, and Firebird. My drive time has gone from 3,3,4.5,9, & 9 hours for each track respectively to 9,9, and 15 hours! This goes for any other racer in the Bay Area. I know right off, the number of racers from this area will be next to zero this coming season.
I am sad to see this move. I would have liked to continue racing with this group of people. I hope the powers that be can figure out how to make it work in this region. Until then, the rest of you enjoy the fun in the sun. Randy runs a class act and his people are great to work with. Thanks again for a great 2004. Good luck this year.
I hear you loud an clear Matt. The question is. Will CCS hear you? CCS really had something going. BUT, poor advertising, bad contingency and staff that was spread too thin yields these type of results. Clear Channel or whomever is really responsible for calling the shots, SHAME ON YOU!
QuoteWe had racing at Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Las Vegas, and Firebird. We now have racing at Arroyo Secco, Las Vegas, and Firebird.
I have to agree with you Matt. Being my first year, I loved Buttonwillow and Streets of Willow. ASMA runs a quality program, but it's too bad the regions were changed. All CCS had to do was incorporate ASMA events inbetween SW and Pacific events. I understand it's really all about"gates", but I fear we will lose the CA racers who, in my opinion, are some of the best!
The real dimise of the pacific region is two fold the price the tracks charge and the proliferation of track days. It had been that if you wanted to get on a track you had to race. Then tracks days started being offered mid week to both existing riders and those that wanted to start racing(ie schools). The track days have started getting weekend dates which leaves race groups out as they cannot run a week day event and being anything close to succesful. Now as the track days get weekends more people can get their race/speed/etc fix without racing.
The real shame should goto the track day groups and the race tracks that schedule "practice" during a weekend. Weekends should be racing, practice should be mid week.
Eric:
How could track days get any weekends if a race oranization would plan ahead a little and get some dates secured? ???
I see a lot of AFM and WERA West races in California! It seems strange that those organizations can afford to race at California tracks, and can get weekend dates, and CCS can't!! I find it amazing that CCS couldn't get even ONE Buttonwillow date in the whole year! :o
I live in the Phoenix area, so this new schedule isn't that much of a big deal, but I do look forward to a summer race at Buttonwillow. If CCS can't get enough entries to justify a race in California, that would show a bigger problem. :-/
Kevin told us all in Phoenix 2 years ago that there were going to be some "exciting developements, wait and see". Well, eliminating a region, and discontinuing racing in California is not a very good developement. >:(
Brian Long, Jason Catching, Matt Buck, Steve Fukiage, and Tristin Schoenwald paid for a lot of races, and they are California guys. How does CCS expect to replace their entries/money if they choose not to race with this organization? :( :'(
On another note, why couldn't CCS have announced that there was no more Pacific Region? ??? ???
Ray
QuoteThe real dimise of the pacific region is two fold the price the tracks charge and the proliferation of track days.
Well...here is my second response. I worked out a nice long one with some good thought and was told it was too long by the system. Then It disapeared. Great. Now I am too pissed and late for my party that I am unable to put it all back out. Ammened and more gritty-
Eric- Bullshit.
Track day organizer were here long before CCS came to town. It was bad negotiating on CCS and the track that brought us to loosing our right to ride at 2 spots. CCS wants to be a big player with small pockets. The market is saturated by WERA WSMC, AHRMA, and AFM races.
I saw Ray Hymers list. Add in Mike Haaren, Dirk Harden, Jim Haron, Scott Jackson, Nick Moore, Corey Sarros, Garth Dillon, Bob Russell, Will Willis, Ginny Cutler, and a ton of others I just can't recall right off. Lost- You will not likely see these faces again.
Ok- The tracks are closer to Phoenix. On Agregate. The tracks from 2003 were balanced all over the west coast. Call it what it is- P-SW region. Quit running all this combined crap.
We now loose button willow because of proximity to phonix. BW is one of the cheapest track in the region.
In 2005 The tracks are a total travel of 12444 miles for someone from the Bay area. That aint local for me. That is 900 Miles less than if I drove to Daytona, raced all the FUSA races from Colubus OH, and drove home from the ROC.
AHRMA?
Hey, I don't see a whole lot of AHRMA dates anywhere. They have been struggling for years now.
The AMA lost their date at VIR. Cause of other track day programs and other racing programs.
Regardless, how many entries were the races out on your side getting?
I think these things are kind of two fold: got to have enough people to pay for renting the track, insurance, purses, etc (remember, you've got WERA, AFM, WSMC, etc. out fighting to get the racer money...and how many of that population has unlimited funds?) and space on a weekend to have a program.
If XYZ Track time is willing to pay a pretty penny to have a weekend event...a racing organization still has to pay for more staff, scoring, timing equipment, people to do points, referees, etc...the race track is there to make money.
If one organization will rent the track for $6k a day, and aonther will rent it for $5k, but has another $3k in expenses to put on their event, hey, that can hurt.
If more money can be had from the track day org, the prices might go up for the racing organization beyond what can be reasonably spent.
This is supply and demand. How many weekends are there?
And someone was just claiming that track days help racing? Well, if the AMA can't get a date at VIR...
Maybe the track day organizers should start selling tickets to watch people ride at track days.
And don't forget, there are track day programs for guys with cars too.
On the flip side, WERA left the Central Midwest area in the late 80's. Someone moves in. You'll have a place to race.
Okay, here's my take. California is oversaturated with different clubs. There are only so many racers and they all must choose which series they're going to race. For this reason the only way for the Pacific region to make it was to combine the events with the SW (Phoenix) region. The SW region is one of the smallest in the U.S., second only to the Pacific region. In the mid 90's there was usually 125-150 racers on a weekend, but that's shrunk to less than 100 per event, from what I'm told by some friends. I believe the reason for this is because when CCS started having SW races in California, two new racing organizations started in neighboring New Mexico. One, ASMA, which I run, and also SMRI out of Albuquerque. So, figure very few New Mexico riders are racing the full SW series, as well as people from West Texas. The California events were just way too far to drive for anyone who lives in this area. Back in the mid 90's the farthest we had to drive was Vegas, which is much closer than Buttonwillow or Streets. The list of current and former CCS SW racers who came from NM and W Texas is fairly large, Jewett, Ledesma, Richards, myself, Locklear and many more you've probably never heard of. I think they're trying to get the SW region back to health. I know a few of us actually moved to Phoenix to be able to race, some of us eventually moved back to NM and made our own way to race.
I feel fortunate enough that I live in Phoenix, AZ and can attend anything within a 300 mile radius. I will miss the CCS in California, but can make those trips to attend other organization events, like WERA. I am pleased to see track owner/operators such as Roger, to step up and offer services to racers that have been without (NM and West Texas). I look forward to participating in the ASMA schedule full time, as well as, the SW CCS events too.
I am pretty bummed that there is no more CCS west coast.
I have never understood the desire to go race with the AFM or WSMC and race with either 90 guys in 3 classes on the track at once, or at one track only with only nine corners.
CCS was not well marketed in California, and the attendance suffered. On the same weekend that the AFM has so many people that they have to limit class entries to 2 per person, and most calsses have a wait list, and you only get about 6 laps of practice, and they dont complete most races because of red flags, the CCS grid at T-Hill was vacant.
You simply have to attract some "name" talent, and promote your events locally if you want to get a decent turn-out.
I really enjoyed the family atmosphere, and the large group of friends that existed in the Pac and SW reigons, but its hard to sell it to your sponsors that you are going to race a series that doesnt even submit a race weekend report to Cycle News or RRW after its races!
Promotion, promotion, promotion!!!
IMHO- There is too much racing available and not enough racers.
Here was last Year for instance:
AHRMA ran two races here in California last year. One at Willow Springs that conflicted with a CCS race being held the same weekend at Streets of Willow. They also had a race at Thunder Hill.
WSMC Runs Every Month. Plus there was the Toyota 200. I know there were at least two conflicting dates.
AFM ran an Eight Race Series. One Date conflicted with a CCS combined event.
WERA ran 8 events. Two of which were conflicting with CCS races.
AMA ran three events out here and ALL! were in conflict.
Then along comes CCS. They ran 11 events between the pacific and the South West. (7 of them combined)
That is thirty six race weekends to choose from after the conflicts are weeded out. This did not include Arroyo Seco or the now dead Arizona club. They had conflicting dates as well that stole riders away.
Now- How many tracks do we have? Laguna Seca, Sears Point, ThunderHill, Fontana, Las Vegas, Las Vegas Classic, FirebirdEast, Firebird International, Fire Bird West, Horsethief mile, Button Willow, Streets of Willow, Willow Springs, and (if you want to count it) Arroyo Seco. Fourteen! That make 728 weekends available!!! You cannot tell me that there are not enough weekend dates available.
What happened out here was there was too much to choose from. I would probably have run the AFM, WERA, and CCS series last year. However- Conflicts came into play I chose (and now it looks to be rather unwisely) to follow the CCS series as my main effort.
Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
I'll throw in a couple cents too.
In 2003, Pac ran at Thunderhill. I (living in Tucson), never went to T-hill, I've heard it's an awesome track, but on the far side to drive for a regional race. In 2004 CCS lost T-hill. Once that happened, the Pac and SW regions race the exact same tracks, SW has a couple more dates at Firebird East and Pac had extra dates at Buttonwillow and SOW. No longer two regions with overlap, but two regions racing the same tracks with slightly different schedules.
Honestly, IF I lived in NorCal, I wouldn't have raced CCS in 2004. There were no dates in the area. Makes AFM look appealing.
CCS also effectivly lost SOW. Now were does that leave the Pac region? Sure, they could have a couple races at Buttonwillow, but when the corporation looks at the numbers, the Buttonwillow turnouts have been lackluster. Granted, that was because of bad scheduling (2004 it was the same weekend as Laguna Seca, 2003 it was over 4th of July weekend...), but business decisions will be made by the numbers.
I'd be really suprised to see any NorCal folks at a CCS race next year. They are good guys and I'll miss them, but times change and it's not really feasible for them to spend much effort to race so far away when there are other closer oppertunities. I'm sure Matt is frustrated because that means not running his number 1 plate next year too, unless he drives down to Vegas or PHX. I do hope we get some SoCal guys that come out and run at least a few races. But, like Roger said, CA is becoming oversatured with racing orgs, someone had to give. If there is anyone to blame, it's the other orgs. People get screwed becuase plans were made which now neeed to change, but it's racing and that happens. AMA killed 250s, then said they could run in FX (at 330cc, bet Oliver could have seen the podium), then removed them from FX.
On the other hand, for me the schedule is great - PHX is 1.5 hours, ASR is 3.5 hours, and Vegas is 8 hours. I'm sure ASMA will grow with the added exposure. Hopefully it will also get more ASMA guys from El Paso, Las Cruses, Tucson, and even PHX that haven't raced with CCS to start. With the unknown destiny of SMRI in ABQ right now, we might see some of the northern NM riders hitting CCS SW as well. I know I'll actually make all the CCS SW dates for once next year because they won't conflict with ASMA.
-z.
QuoteCCS was not well marketed in California, and the attendance suffered.
Very True, same in Arizona too. The Tucson area has around 3/4 million people now, and due to year-round riding has quite a few motorcyclists Out of that, how many "active" (actually race multiple times a year) motorcyle racers are there? I'd say around 25 or so. Of those, how many show up to the average Firebird race - usually 2, Elaine and I. At most 4 or 5 from Tucson. Most of them are racing ASMA, which is farther from Tucson than PHX is. ASMA even has people who live in PHX that only race ASMA.
We also have a ton of riders who go to some abandoned wherehouse to do some stunting, and a bunch of guys trying to kill themselves on Mount Lemmon or Kit Peak. Why don't they want to come race?
-z.
QuoteIMHO- There is too much racing available and not enough racers.
This pretty much says it all...
I thought you started this thread?
Racing organizations are still businesses, regardless of their profit or non-profit status.
You can't loose money on every event and expect to make up for it in volume. If you lose $2000 at each event, having ten of them means you loose $20k.
More promotion?
I always hear that...
To whom? Racers? What more can someone do? Most racers are only involved for a couple of years. Most. Where the next crop comes from.... Well, good question. Honestly, road racers make up a small fraction of motorcycle riders period. How much money would you like to spend and where do you spend it? I'd probably spend most of my money in RRW magazine and a couple of things like that.
Anyone elxe got any ideas for CCS?
Roger, I remember Larry Locklear.
QuoteThat make 728 weekends available!!!
Probably not going to be open on the Christmas or New Years weekends, so that brings you down to 700...
But what about the SCCA, ASA, CART, and every other organization that caters to track days...
Go carts...
Car track days...
Charitable events?
We can make a long list. I think that certainly cuts down on any available dates for each program.
As for the distance traveled...
Is this really an issue?
I didn't think racing was about convenience. When I starte road racing, I did it because I wanted to. I wanted to be faster, better. I wanted a ride, something. I started when I was living in Omaha, Nebraska. The closest race track was 442 miles away. Rockford, IL. Next was about 460...St Louis, IL, Then Brainerd, MN. Hallett, OK, next. Finally, Second Creek Raceway in Denver. If I wanted to chase a championship, I was going to have to travel.
If you want local travel, stick to one track, or try something like motocross where there are more tracks available. Might make things better.
Road racing will never be convienient. Isn't there a certain amount of exclusivity that makes road racing a bit cooler to you?
Evidently you missed my point- there are too many race organizations in this area to have multiple conflicting dates. Especially for an organization like CCS that is looked upon by most of the locals as second rate. The people we are trying to attract choose to go to other races instead.
You point out that you can't loose money and stay in business. I add to that- you cannot stay in business if you continually upset and screw your customers. 65-70% of each event held in the SW&P was made up of racers from California.
CCS ran at Buttonwillow on the same weekend as the World Super Bike/ AMA round at Laguna Seca. There were even racers that were in the points hunt that did not show up because they went to Laguna Seca. This infighting caused the lowest attendance at any event I have ever been too. Even the tire vendors bailed out to go to the bigger event.
I know we cannot have a perfect world; however, CCS is one of the last organizations to put their calendar up. This should give them time to work out the major pro race conflicts.
Need more? We even have internal conflicts- I would love nothing more than to show up to the Awards banquet for the SW&P regions for last year. They scheduled it the same time as a national race I intend to race. Again, making me choose which event I want to go to.
This is one of the obvious ways to keep your clients.
Distance traveled? Yes it is important, when you change it this dramatically. Look at the numbers again. A Bay Area racer that ran all 11 races on the schedule was likely to put in 10100 mile last season. Take in consideration that a Phoenix based racer would put on 7500 mile for the same season. Now the distance becomes 12500 for the CA racer and 3000 miles for the Phoenix for 8 races instead of 11. That is an Average of 1562 for each race vs. 918 from the previous year. My transport cost have now doubled.
Why do I keep pointing to the Bay Area? Because that is where the regions best customers have historically driven from over the past three years. That is where CCS has made money. By balancing the venues between the SW & P you keep your current customer base- not alienate them.
I do not look for convenience here, just parity from year to year. I really did want to continue racing the same regional area. Not a difficult request in my eyes when you work out the details. From where I am standing, it seems to be quick decisions based on emotion rather than a calculated response to the real. Hearing the CCS official and a track owner shout "we don't need you" and "we don't need you either" led me to that conclusion.
QuoteI know we cannot have a perfect world; however, CCS is one of the last organizations to put their calendar up. This should give them time to work out the major pro race conflicts.
Ok, I don't work for CCS. Never have...
But I've been around to know enough.
CCS's schedule is probably proposed to each track at around August. Each track will start putting together dates on their own schedule. CCE won't let CCS do certain things with their schedule until certain things contract wise are met.
Conflicts...
Well, each organization, racing and track day, operate a bit in their own vacuum. You can't make someone have something on a particular day. You go about focusing on your program.
By many people's admission, there are too many organizations in the pacific area. Second rate? Well, might be. Can't answer that myself...I'm a bit more east when I'm racing...unless someone flys me out to ride a vintage bike or it's part of my program.
I don't think you've had anyone that actually works in the CCS office reply to this thread. Emotional responses? I've known Kevin Elliott for a really long time, and I'll say one thing. Emotional responses are not really part of what he does. I've seen him in situations where I though he should be pretty darn mad, and I'm being nice, but he held his cool and made a pretty fair decision...the other parties were emotional.
If the Bay area is saturated, as it really is I'm sure...The AFM has been around for 40 plus years right? My personal mentor was one of the AFM's senior instructors, anyway, I doubt that CCS can knock them off, and why would they?
But will the AFM offer a program to racers more centered in the Phoenix area? Back to growth and all, where might it come from?
I'm not arguing, but, I guess, the schedules are set. Decisions were made.
WERA left Blackhawk Farms in 1988, I believe. That's in the heart of the Chicago market. Big, like the Bay area, but we have winter. WERA had to do it. CCS took up the slack. I'm sure the AFM or WSMC or WERA will have something to offer.
Each year is different. Change is part of it all.
the AFM is a great organization. Actually been around for 50 years. They attracted enough racers to have 90+entrants for what ammounts to LWGP. Way too many on the grid in my opinion. Turn 1 is pretty interesting. I was pleased that there was an alternative. Many of the racers there look at CCS as a bastard step child. I get so sick of hearing AFM this and AFM that in comparison to CCS. AFM runs three tracks over 8 races. Not hard to do. CCS runs hundreds of events at 50+ venues.
With CCS gone, I am left to running AFM. If I get 3 races I am lucky. They have a wait list policy because there are too many racers. Too bad CCS can't attract a few of them. Could work better if they did not schedule events against them.
Don't look at it as CCS scheduling against them. Things just happen. If T-hill has one dated open for MC racing, what can CCS do? AFM has a window for their schedule too.
For a long time, the AFM has been "full".
I understand that it's a great organization...
But lining up 90 bikes on a grid at Sears? The field is limited to 80 at Daytona. I know, they've been doing it for years. It's still kind of spooky.
QuoteBut lining up 90 bikes on a grid at Sears?
Anybody got any pics of the "90 bikes going into a turn one"? Would love to see it, but would not want to be a part of it! :o
Matt, Dave, Zac and the rest of the racing community reading this banter:
I just have to say; "Well put Matt, well put Dave". There appears to be one extremely important factor missing in this equation. What are the numbers that satisfy Clear Channel Entertainment? After reading Dave's comments, he seems to have more of a pulse on CCS's finances that do some of the other racers. Do we even know what it takes to run this program? What is CCE's margin here (Pacific/Southwest)?
Until someone from CCS / CCE officially chimes in, we will just be in an endless volley. So, how about it; is there anyone listening (reading)? ???
The result is as what Matt Buck stated at this juncture; this is a loss for both CCS and the California racers.
Dave, you talk about corporations? "It's all bout the numbers"? How about CCE correctly delegating the responsibilities such as marketing, promotions and sponsorship to those who would effectively achieve financial satisfaction for CCE. This is where CCS has failed. Contractual arrangements, schedules, announcements are all part of the plan, the "communication plan". Leave the marketing and promotion tasks to those who CAN. It's not a fair posed question to ask racers "To whom?" or "what more can someone do?". It would be as effective if I asked a marketing expert in CCE, "how much fuel do I use in my sprint races?". As far as "what more can someone do?" the answer to that lays on someones BA or MBA shingle. Not on our racing licenses.
I live in So Cal, the trek will be longer, but the cost of extra days off for travel along with the cost of transport is definitely going to play a part in the frequency of participation from the California racers.
The list of Ca. racers is long, maybe not as long as Florida or Midwest but my guess is a viable ($$) contributor to CCS as a whole.... :(
Really now, what about what Ray Hymer asked; Why couldn't CCS have made an annoucement regarding the elimination of Pacific and the addition of Arroyo? That is my question also. >:(
Well, good questions...
At what point does one know something?
Really, it might have came down to something very recently that caused the change.
Have any of you actively talked to Kevin Elliott about this?
I've written rules, discussed purses, etc.
I was recently on the phone with someone that has a successful track day program, and they told me about another track day organization that was willing to over bid a day to get in.
Well, CCS, the racers, we expect to pay $70 for our first race, $50 for the second, etc...whatever...we're generally not ready to pay a premium price...Daytona and Road America are exceptions...for certain opportunities.
One may not agree with the CCS staff, Ft Worth and Chicago, but they have been involved directly with racers one on one for years and years. It's not like you're dealing with some corporate person. I know that Kevin Elliott has struggled for some thing that he knew were better for the racers. Sometimes, the corporation, CCE, swayed his way...sometimes not.
I have an idea!! :o
How about several racers getting organized to commit to a couple of dates at Buttonwillow? Just as CCS can cancel races, they can add them too, can't they? The facility at Buttonwillow is by far the best in terms of pit space, restrooms, hot pit area, weather, race spectating views, eating area. etc. The SW region has quite a gap during the summer. ;D
I don't know what the CCS costs of running Buttonwillow are, or the break even for that track, but maybe someone can tell us, and authorize a group (Steve, Matt, me, etc) to get pre registering done. I'm sure Heather (the girl that works the gate at Firebird) as well as many others would help, too, if they were just asked nicely! Give us some posters to put into motorcycle shops, with pre-entey forms, license applications, schedules, LP track day dates, school dates, etc. Maybe even a link on the CCS website! This won't necessarily cut transportation costs, but it may get new racers to come out, plus it will keep some of the California guys in the system until a good schedule can be organized (next year) that can be one region, but incorporate New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California. Maybe call it the West Region.
I like racing CCS, and would like to see it grow and prosper. What do you say guys?? :)
I like your enthusiasm, Ray.
Might be hard. First, you'd have to have a free day at the track.
And I know that CCE is really hard about changing contracts. If it's a done deal, someone will have to show them (CCE, not CCS) why they should spend the effort.
You've got some people that might want to help here, though.
Ray, please call me asap.
Roger
First, CCS never asked for conflicting dates at any CA facility, as the "step-child", we were "given what was left. (For 4 years I asked for March or April dates at Buttonwillow and the only ones open were July and November (and in 2003 they took November away.) Race organizations are creatures of habit, so looking at your last years schedule gives you a good idea were the next years is going to be and when. We were forced to pick our California dates out of what was left, not what worked for CCS. (You think we chose to race on Easter? That was WSIR's choice for us this year.) Our FIR schedule for 2005 was affected by Firebird scheduling track days before race days this season. Never mind we've been running 4-8 races a year there since 1984. March 6th was the first open weekend that didn't conflict with ASMA or have a track day scheduled on one of the other courses.
Second, CCS invested $270,000 over 4 years trying to get things going there in California. Payroll at a CCS is probably double what it is for a non-profit club, if that club pays anyone at all. Add that to the fact CCS carries excess medical insurance (most "clubs" don't provide medical) and a minimum of 5 million in liability at all facilities and you can easily see why our overhead is higher. These are things that mandatory because we are owned by a huge corporation, it is the cross we bear.
We did not pull out of California on a whim, when we started we presented CCE with a five year plan for the Pacific region, and at the end of four years of struggling with poor available dates, less than average turnouts and rental fees/contracts that helped make it impossible to even break even we-I was forced to admit to Clear Channel that it wasn't going to work.
I could go into all the details about the tracks and the changes in their contracts that hurt us, I could go on and on about how much medical insurance cost us or I could go on about the money spent on personnel but the fact will remain that an average of 404 entries will not pay the bills at tracks like Buttonwillow and Thunderhill.
Third, we did advertise those events and it helped, but not enough. We did the best we could do with the budget we had, our biggest problem was effective distribution, and no matter who we hooked up with to help, it never seemed to get done completely. We also placed ads in mags like City Bike to try to reach more people but the results speak for themselves.
The reality is when your best event in California loses money, lots of money, and you have cut your controlable expenses to the minimum to still put on a safe event, there is no way to justify continuing the punishment.
If by chance Ray is serious, I just notified Carrie Hester at Buttonwillow to release our July and November 2005 dates, so there are at least two dates open there.
On the release of our 2005 schedule, CCE does not like to release schedules until it has contracts in hand, and since 99% of road race facilitites will not give multi-year contracts, we end up in the catch-22 of asking for dates every July, rearranging them in October and November and not getting to release them until December. No excuses, just an explaination.
Just one quick bit on the marketing...when you have a budget, say $100,000 to market 70 events in 23-28 locations, it doesn't go very far. Add in there that your marketing person gets paid out of the same fund (the money to pay them has to come from somewhere) and you end up with maybe $1000 per race for marketing. That sounds pretty good until you figure that print ads cost $1,000 to $1,800 a page in one magazine or radio ads cost $200-$500 per slot and it takes an average of six impressions from one station for the message to sink in and it soon becomes a nightmare to figure out how to make that money work best for you. That is why the money is "pooled" and multiple events are advertised together, while it stretches the money, it dilutes the message...catch-22 again.
If some one has a better answer, I'd love to hear it.
By the way, Daytona in it's new configuration, 1:42 for Superbikes and 1:44 for Supersports seems to be the "norm" for day one from what I've seen. Gearing is really different now with the tighter infield, so stock up different ratios for March.
I can definitely say that advertising costs vs income have a huge impact on whether or not an event is profitable. We run sports cars and drag racing at ASR and I lost my butt on a bunch of drag races this year because of advertising costs and bad weather.
Kevin, I always appreciate your responses here, thanks (I realize it's not a requirement for you :) ).
The whole marketing thing has been beat so far into the ground over the last couple years that it's now dirt. I understand the limitation with budget constraints in advertising, that truely is a handicap. That idea that was tossed around by Tiffeney about distributing literature and posters thru us was attacked by racers like a starving pirrahna in a puddle. There are many of us that would gladly go around to motorcycle shops and hangouts for free and get this advertising displayed. It may not bring in masses of spectators but I bet the $5000 for advertising the 5 Blackhawk Farms events would sure put alot of well placed posters in the faces of those who may possibly come and spectate or get involved themselves. I had an idea before of having inexpensive business cards made with event info, the CCS contact number, and a basic map on the back to the closest track. Nothing fancy, just something you put along with the poster that the curious can put in their wallet. Then they stumble onto it occasionally and it's like continued advertising in their pocket, plus contact info and race dates. Even though I like flyers also, I feel they are probably more apt to being discarded or lost too often, but still an inexpensive way to get the word out at motorcycle related facilities. For example here in the immediate county Blackhawk Farms is located in, the population is about a 1/4 million, with a lot of motorcyclists.
This is just my opinion, but I think that was a really good idea that shouldn't be too expensive. :)
Kevin,
Thank you for your response. I guess i just would think that a more subtle change would have worked too. Are you considering opening up the Buttonwillow dates as CCS south west events or opening them to Ray as the organizer? I guess that wass not to clear to me?
I will make an effort to put together the riders for the date if in fact it is a CCS run race. How many race entries do you require?
I think it was awesome for Kevin to reply. For those of you that want CCS to respond to our concerns, here is a direct response from them. :)
I think between myself, Matt, Steve, my son, Q Nealy, Eric Pelley, Harden, Herd, Joe Jackson, Pollard, and Harris, we could have at least 70 entries. I don't know if Catching or Long are going to race CCS this year, but if they are, there is a bunch more race entries. There are many more racers that would show up, too, these were just some that came to mind.
The July Buttonwillow race had about 210 entries on an AMA conflicting weekend, and as a comparison, the May race at Firebird (SW only) only had about 180, so there is a good chance, with a little effort, to get over 300. Add in if you can get USGPRU and the sidecars to participate, plus the LP track day and New Rider School, it seems VERY feasable to get enough participation to make the race weekend work. You could even make it a twin sprint weekend without the GT races! For those that complain about practice, Buttonwillow raceway runs their own track day the day before. It's open track all day long! :D
Hey, here's a thought! I didn't see a Formula USA race weekend scheduled out here. How about at Buttonwillow that same weekend? ::)
Kevin: PLEASE let us know what you need us to do for you, and I am sure that you will be surprised how much help you would get!
Not trying to put words in Kevin's mouth. Just an idea if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.
If you think it can be done then CCS may sanction the event run by outside promoters (ie like ASMA, LRRS or CCS florida).
Kevin said he is relasing the dates held for CCS at Buttonwillow so if you call tomorrow you may be able to get those dates to run races there. Catch is the promoter would have the up and the down side of it, get enough racers you make money not enough you have to cover the loss. As a santioned promoter event you can run extra classes and only have to run some (I know the SS classes but unsure which others) so you can tailor the event to fit the riders in that area.
Posters suck.
Spend all you want, but I haven't seen many of them actually get into the right hands...but the reality is that the right eyes have to see them.
Self promotion of racers to potential spectators is the only answer.
If you haven't put out press release to your sponsors or to anyone that you know...
What are you really doing? What do you have to sell? Might as well invite people to watch a track day.
Thanks for the input, Kevin. I know about the secondary coverage, but I forgot to mention it here.
I stopped racing CCS last year. In 2003 I raced almost if not all of the SW and Pacific. I to live in Northern CA and many of the racers I raced with in the CCS no matter what location where from Northern CA. Once CCS decided to pull out of Thunderhill in 2004 that was it for me. With out even one local track it made no since to race in CCS any longer. I'm not the biggest AFM fan; I always tried to get afmer to race in CCS but CCS made it harder and harder by conflicting dates with AMA and AFM races. For CCS to have gained a foot hold on Nor cal they should have made every effort to not schedule races at the same time as other event while CCS was still trying to gain there customer base. That's why T hill was never profitable for CCS. The races are here in NorCal to race but just not on the weekends that CCS scheduled because AFM would be running at some other track on the same weekend. So AFMer that might have come and raced a CCS race never did because of points or loyalty to AFM. I know a lot of AFMer that are fed up with the 80 plus grids and would welcome another organization up here. It's very frustrating to me because CCS had such a HUGE potential to be successful but fail miserably. So now like everyone else in Nor Cal I'm stuck to racing with 80 other rider going into turn one because there is know alternative now.
If you guys can get something going at Buttonwillow or need help organizing I would be happy to help, as long as it does not conflict with another race.
I have made my offer and suggestions, but I have not heard from Kevin about this. I don't want to be a "sanctioned" event. If I want to spend the time and money organizing a race organization, why would I need CCS involvement? My offer is to help CCS get a race on their schedule for Buttonwillow, so they can hopefully find some way to keep the Cali racers in their system. I have heard from other racers that would like to help, but in the end it has to be CCS that puts their foot forward to authorize us to get the Buttonwillow race approved. As the season approaches, I will have less and less time to get this done, so hopefully something happens soon!
QuoteIf I want to spend the time and money organizing a race organization, why would I need CCS involvement
Because their global purchasing ability of insurance as part of CCE is a great deal. And it includes secondary medical for an injured rider, attendee, etc.
It saves on the overall cost.
Dave, I agree with you, but forming a whole race organization takes a whole lot more planning and financing then just helping CCS add a race to their schedule. I don't live in California, I live in Phoenix, AZ. When I decide to form a race organization, it would be based in Arizona, and I would be HONORED to be a CCS affiliate, but I am a couple years away from committing to that large of a project. When I decide to do that, I want it to be a result of great planning, ample finances, an enthusiastic and knowledegable staff, faithful sponsorsorships, and proper venues, and not just thrown together on the fly.
QuoteEach year is different. Change is part of it all.
Unless you race with WSMC...same thing, every month, every year. Third Sunday of every month. Kinda convenient when you own the track I guess.
I wish they'd drop at least Dec. or Jan...or both. :)
-Brian
HMMM... Following this loosely and have to say- Garth- did you read the whole thread? CCS did not intentionally schedule races on top of the heavy hitters in the area. Read Kevin's response please.
Ray- for CCS to step up and race in BW would be a loss. It has been for 4 years. That is why they are not going there this year. That is why they will not step up and sanction a race. I assume you figure that by using your offer of help (and a gracious one too- honestly) they will save on payroll-not so. Even if they did not pay the announcer (who in this region makes very little compared to what he can make with other events but does it because he loves the SW and PAC racers blah blah blah) the race will still lose money. ONe area you could cut cost if the track would let you (which they will not) is hire your own cornerworkers like we do in Phoenix. The workers we got in So Cal were a handful to work with, and got paid way to much for the quality they gave in my opinion. Ask Roger about costs. Ask the track owners why they can give the Chevette club or something all the dates first (because the Pinto club is in with the SCCA who pays good coin for the track- freaking car guys). Fact is this- AFM apparently puts on a good show in Nor Cal. WSMC in the south. Both are great track days all weekend long!! Racing is much better and safer with CCS.
cstem- yes i did read the thread. I can think of three CCS events off of the top of my head the where on the same weekend as another close event. I'm not saying that it was done on purpose by anyone but its why CCS did not make it. Thats just my opinion. It does not matter now. I really do not think CCS will ever come back here..
Garth is mad because he couldn't beat me. ;) Just kidding Garth. There are a lot of good points being made here but I have kept quiet long enough. I really feel like I am being snubbed here. I have been a full supporter of CCS for the last three years. I have invested lots of money, time, blood, sweat, and so on and so fourth. You all so the pacific reg had more entries on a given weekend. Well why was it we were always the last to know of event changes, CANCELLATIONS, and schedule changes. You would think that they would try and get the word out here a little better so we could adjust our schedules.
Three years ago I finished with the #3 plate. Two years ago I finished with the #2 plate. Guess what, for the first time in 13 years of racing I obtained something that I thought Id never get. The #1 plate. Look at me now I have a #1 and no damn region!!! >:( I find out about it in the fourm. If they knew this was comming why wasn't something said earlier? Instead we think everything is ok and start planning for the following year only to find out I am a man with out a cause. No region! How should I feel? ???
Congrats Jason on your number 1. I know you've been working for that for a long time now. You should send a letter to CCS corporate and tell them you want a refund for all of the money you spent chasing the title in the Pasific. How have you been anyhow? It really suck dude that CCS in the Pacific is gone. So what are you going to do AFM or WERA. I'm going to try and do both and some AMA. Let me know. We'll have to do some track days.
Jason, sorry to hear that you just found out. You did a really good job this past year!
-Brian
so...besides the Hymers, who is going to the banquet?
Quoteso...besides the Hymers, who is going to the banquet?
I will be attending, my son Tommy, and another racer; Robo-Rob will too.
We would also like to race Button Willow in July. No races in CA will suck, but we will still make all the CCS, ASMA, and most WERA events.
Im pretty sure that you can count us in... Daniel, Tsho and myself... Al Harris is flying out, and Dirk Harden will be there...