I know I already posted this already, but I just sent my letter to Kevin Elliot about getting weight limits setup for supersport bikes next year. If you support it, please write him or give him a call.
If you don't, well don't do anything
You are speaking of minimum weight restrictions, correctabo?
yeah, minimum weight. I was thinking something like 20-30 pounds less than showroom weight would be great. I think that would pretty much just be what removing the lights and stuff to go racing would add up to, maybe dropping the subframe or something like that.
Like if the bike weighted in at 380 new, set the minimum weight at 360.
How about minimums that include the rider? That way, my 215lbs + a 345lbs SV will equal someone else's 155 + 405. I mean, if you want to be really fair, you gotta include the ass on the back.
I love the SpeedVision GT series, where, for every win, a driver gets 5lbs added to their car. So, those cars you see running with +30 have some kick-ass drivers.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. What is the logic behind that? Go race WERA if you want insane supersport rules. Besides, how do you expect to inforce them? CCS has to carry scales to all the races?
I'm also curious to know just how light a bike can get after you remove all of the strength. Also... at the level most of us race, just how much will it improve our lap times V.S. cost you in money, time and safety. I had a chance to look inside a 2000 TL1000s swing arm when it just broke in a few pieces from normal wear and tear. IMHO...Bikes are light enough I think. I did ok on my heavy pig this year.
--(Quote)--That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. What is the logic behind that? Go race WERA if you want insane supersport rules. Besides, how do you expect to inforce them? CCS has to carry scales to all the races?
WERA doesn't race that close to me in the midwest, not nearly as close as CCS, although i think I am going to do some of their close races. I think scales would be the best idea, but I guess that they could have two people lift up each end and guess!
--(Quote)--I'm also curious to know just how light a bike can get after you remove all of the strength. Also... at the level most of us race, just how much will it improve our lap times V.S. cost you in money, time and safety. I had a chance to look inside a 2000 TL1000s swing arm when it just broke in a few pieces from normal wear and tear. IMHO...Bikes are light enough I think. I did ok on my heavy pig this year.
7 lbs equals 1 hp. So a bike that weighs 21lbs more than an equally strong bike has around 3 more hp. That is a lot in a supersport class if you ask me
I don't support this idea, and doing nothing just seems wrong.
The whole point of supersport racing is to use a nearly-stock bike. Adding diving weights to a new R6 in order to make it weigh the same as a 1993 ZX6E seems kinda... stupid. It is stupid in the context of CCS club racing, and it was stupid in AMA Pro racing, from which it has since been eliminated.
And that 7 lbs = 1 bhp equation doesn't have much basis in reality. It's based on the power:weight ratio of a 450 lb bike with 85 bhp being ridden by a 170 lb rider. Even using modern machinery that yields a power:weight ratio closer to 4.5:1, this equation makes no sense. If it did, it would mean that Jamie Hacking's GSX-R600 should have had nearly 8 bhp more than Aaron Yates' identical bike, meaning that poor Aaron should have been left for dead in every race. Of course, this was not the case.
I know this may sound expensive, but how about CCS purchase a couple of Dyno jet 150's-calibrate them to match each other and have a horsepower limit. I know people do not want to admit it but some people actually cheat so why not let everyone cheat as much as they like as long as they don't make to much H.P.? as far as weight goes at this level, remove what you want and if you weaken your bike then you are putting yourself in harms way.CCS is a business and may have to take some of our hard earned money and invest it in there business.Protests for the most part are a joke from what I have seen and I have been around off and on for 17 yrs.I have not seen a spec book with tolerances for all manufactures and a set of machinist mic's and calipers to check the parts.So I say build it,but not too much..
??? Maybe I missed something here...
YOu want CCS to buy Scales?.. and spend more time Teching bikes?...
One guys wants CCS to get dynos?
Okay I am so lost as to where this is going... At the last race I ran.. Gingermen, I saw a SV650 Basicly Stock win the GTU race (thats a Mid-weight Class for those who didn't know). I think its silly to talk about asking CCS to do more with cash... if they have extra cash give it to the corner works.. if they didn't have the cash... they would just pass the bill to us...
No thank you. 8)
Puhleeze! At the club level you do NOT need to be checking wieghts on bikes...except for $$$ races. That being said...I run fairly competetively on a supersport SV (Not my suberbike SV) in the Expert LTSS class. I have't even tried to lighten the bike....and I'm not exactly dainty at 224 lbs.
I agree with the last guy and giving the cash to the corner workers. The reason I suggested the Dyno thing was that everyone is concerned with weight and horsepower and what advantage the next guy MAY have.There are few if any guys that can ride todays machines at there limits and NONE of them are in CCS OR WERA.Our regions fastest guy is a 20th place finisher in AMA-I think we need to concentrate on other areas.But I do think CCS should be more prepared with tare downs. The full pop protest costs $500 and I have been robbed of this money by what was clearly an illegal bike back in 97' at R.A. and the not only got the cash but the contingency-He brought a different bike to tech after a race that was being torn down by the rider-BY HAND!!!!!!!!!
QuoteThere are few if any guys that can ride todays machines at there limits and NONE of them are in CCS OR WERA.
Are you saying there is no one in CCS or WERA that can run a stock Supersport cycle to its limits? If so, ::) Are you saying that more HP and less weight does not translate into an on track advantage? ::)
Having said that, and I'm sure Super Dave will come riding in talking about how the rider is 90%+, which I agree, but the difference between 1st and 4th is often less than 1%, maybe 2-4 bike lengths over 15 miles.
Well, if that wasn't an invitation....
CCS has scales and has been offered scales to use in all regions.
A Dynojet dyno can be fooled. And there can be a variation between dynos +/-7%.
Weight is absolute, pretty much. It doesn't vary unless you fill the bike with oil or gas, etc.
And less weight equals more HP. Race a WRX Subaru against a Mustang GT.
Losing weight can be technical. Removing starters and generators (it is allowed in CCS Supersport). It can be expensive. Go buy a little bit of titainium rather than a lot.
Supersport is a production based class. I believe that it should require a functioning charging system and starter, and a reasonable minimum weight. A rider should be able to come with his street bike and FEEL as though they are on a reasonably level playing field.
Weight is easy. Put it on a scale. Doesn't require any excessive training, variations for tires, etc.
Regardless, weight is relevant. Take a 370# SV against a 320# SV. Which can acclerate faster? Which can slow down faster?
Yes, yes, yes, Aaron pounds Hacking. Wouldn't you expect that from a down home guy that worked to get his ride vs a guy that destroys $3million dollars worth of bikes (actual figure given to me by someone I know at Yoshimura...).
Rider is just about everything you need. But being on par with everyone does make things more reasonable.
I read where someone said, "The rider is 95%. The other 5% is the bike. Make the 5% count."
Does make a lot of sense. If I were to spend money, I would do it on suspension, then weight items, then HP. Suspension is necesary for handing and consistnency, weight helps acceleration and handling, and HP... well, someone might have to tune it and it might not be reliable.
$.02
Ahhh, SD, its only 'cause I respect your opinion :)
Borrowing everyone else's math: 3hp x 5% = .15hp
Wow.
My GSXR600 made about 108HP last year 2002. It weighed in at 380 with some gas in it once when I threw it across the scales. I weigh 175 or so and all my stuff makes me an easy 190.
The ratio there is about 5.27.
If I used my HP figures from 2001, they were about 104 with the same weight. Ratio there is 5.48.
By reducing 22 pounds from the motorcycle, or me, I could have saved myself the money in the engine and had the same power to weight ratio.
Gasoline weighs 5.5 to 7 pounds.
The reference to the 5% on the motorcycle refered to the fact that it is still the rider that is in ultimate control of the bike.
Put yourself on a bike that makes three more HP at Daytona, and, as lore has it, you can gain one second. We infered what my lap times in a 2002 race would be on a vintage bike that I had raced at Daytona in 2000. Based on the same weight of everything and HP being the thing that changed, we were pretty much spot on with the figure.
Nothing to argue, but there is a difference when something can go faster than something else.
Supersport is supposed to be a reasonable class to get into. But if another competitor spends copius amounts of money in weight savings, they will reap rewards. Having weight limits might sereve to even the playing field a bit, but potentially not changing the out come for a better rider.
I wonder where you would add this weight to your motorcycle. I weigh in at 150 lbs. I ride a 600 and 750 supersport bike. I would need to add so much more weight to my bikes to get things equal racing aginst you bigger guys. I think adding weight to the top of the bike vs the bottom would make it handle funny.
At Daytona, acceleration of mass is not nearly as important as opposing aerodynamic losses with engine power. Within reason, a bike that weighs less but has the same power:weight ratio as a heavier bike will still be slower around Daytona. Again, that's within reason. The heavier bike has more power, power is defined as force x velocity, and the dominant force at 150+ mph is aerodynamic in origin.
Going back to the Aaron vs. Jamie thing, I don't recall Jamie being two seconds per lap faster than Aaron last year, despite his weight advantage. The same goes for Nicky, Miguel, Kurtis, Anthony, Eric, etc. Power:weight only matters at relatively low speeds, during braking and when changing directions quickly - things for which Daytona is not famous.
How can competitors spend huge amounts of money on lightening stock bikes in supersport? Carbon bodywork (maybe 3 lbs.) and Ti pipes (maybe 3 lbs.)? Six pounds is less than the difference from model-to-model over the years. We can't use aftermarket wheels, forks, brakes, or chassis parts, so where can we the spend money? I just don't see the point in creating additional rules that serve no purpose other than adding expense and complication to the race event itself.
For the record, the numbers I used two posts ago are based on the GSX-R600's we prepared in 2001 for AMA Supersport that weighed roughly 360 lbs. in tech and produced 114.5 bhp on Dynojet's own truck-mounted 250 dyno. With our 145-lb rider, our power:weight ratio was 4.6 lbs per horsepower. The F4i's that we prepared last year produced slightly more power at times.
QuoteHow can competitors spend huge amounts of money on lightening stock bikes in supersport? Carbon bodywork (maybe 3 lbs.) and Ti pipes (maybe 3 lbs.)? Six pounds is less than the difference from model-to-model over the years. We can't use aftermarket wheels, forks, brakes, or chassis parts, so where can we the spend money? I just don't see the point in creating additional rules that serve no purpose other than adding expense and complication to the race event itself.
The supersport rules are so general that there are all kinds of things to change. One bike this year had a carbon fiber gas tank, titanium axles, a titanium spring for Lindemann, right there is almost 3 grand worth of stuff. I would love to have the money to spend on everything titanium or aluminum, or carbon fiber, but I don't.
I would just be happy if I could afford a new pipe and jets. I'm saving (or going in debt) this winter just to get upgraded suspension so I'm not all over in the corners. Then someday I'll get some braided brake lines. ::)
I'm thinking that I had a lot more of a disadvantage with my completely stock bike this season, than others had with the bikes that were 10 pounds lighter.
I would think about it if I was racing AMA, but I agree that CCS shouldn't worry about some carbon and titanium replacements at this level.
Some of us heavy guys need to take some weight off our bike just to be closer to the guys who weigh 40+ pounds less. ;D
Did the racer with the CF fuel tank and Ti axles actually go fast, or was he just out there posing? Did his $3k investment in exotic materials actually improve his lap times or just his bragging rights?
As for the Ti spring, I wouldn't be too worried. I understand that they fatigue quickly, resulting in fracture-mode failures. Ouch! That ought to put the durability of that CF tank to the test.
We'll leave him nameless, but he is a multi time national and regional champion.
He does ride very, very well.
But the bike is unquestionably fast compared to others. I understand what his HP figures are, and they are not out of line.
The Supersport rules are so vague in CCS, that there are many modifications that can be read into the rules that one would not think were legal as it is supersport...And they are legal.
Does anyone have fun doing this anymore? Jesus Christ buy a bike and ride the damn thing as hard as you can. No matter what there is always going to be someone out there with more money. So take your mildly modified bike and show him up where it counts. I ride an older model GSXR and the best feeling I get is passing those newer model bikes with major $$ in them. Go home knowing that you did good with what you have. I get sick of the bike did this the bike did that, forget the bike for a minute and think how inprovement can be made on YOU. Do you hear Eric B complain about his old heavy outdated bike? No the s.o.b. goes out and rides his ass of with what he's got and never complains, how big of a win is it for him when he beats out those modern RC's and Gixxers. Blah blah blah. I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but it's winter time so why not.
You're missing the point...
Supersport was suppose to be a reasonable class. Superbike was supposed to be the open rule class.
AMA Supersport? Can we talk? The top bikes there only have some resembleance to the ones you can I can buy and build. 600's that make 119 to 125HP? Secret rules? Outdated is relevant, but you're not racing against him.
The problem lies when at a certain level riders all ride very well. However, a performance gap is there because of some strange rules in supersport that many over look. Indeed, there are areas to expliot. But I believe that it is not in the spirit of Supersport. By adding a weight limit, it might at least serve to create a balance again in supersport and make excessive, and expensive, lightening an unnecessary expense.
I agree with Dave. I personally don't think that a 301 pound SV should be supersport legal!
Even the "un-mentioned racer" above will tell you that he believes the rules are wrong. He is just taking advantage of the rules as they are written at this time. His ss bike is as fast as my superbike SV that makes over 15 hp more.
Rather than weight limits that require additional equipment to enforce, why not use the AMA and WSMC style supersport rules? In those rules, the legal modifications are spelled out specifically and any other modifications are illegal. That is to say, the rulebook states that every modification is illegal with the exception of the few items that they list, as opposed to the CCS rulebook that takes the opposite approach. That way, the tech inspector can perform a visual inspection without the need for special equipment to detect illegal configurations.
BTW, 119 bhp AMA supersport bikes can be built while still conforming to the strictest interpretation of the rulebook.
Tim,
that would be great for me. I am for either. I really don't think it would be that much of burden to weigh bikes at tech, since it would only be the top three anyway (does any other position really count). It would be great if CCS listed what you could do to a supersport bike and then everything else was off limits, i mean they do it for what you can do to the motor (for the most part, I am sure there is some room for creative minds to interupt those rules), they should do it for the rest of the bike.
Yes, I hope this is still fun....I'm still doing it.
Sure the top three should be "checked", but another bike in the field should be checked too. All riders must be made to feel as they all have a chance.
I wanted the rules changed, many did, but for some reason, they are not going to be changed.
where did you hear that they aren't changing the rules? You have too many inside sources man.
Oh well, we can always try again next year.
I think everyone has some valid points here. The 1st thing to consider is that it is only club racing , it should be for fun ! If some guy wants to spend a bunch of money on expensive parts so be it.When you beat him on your semi stock bike it is you that will have the last laugh. Take jessie janisch as an example , his dad bought him a wrecked SV650 , we straightened it , optimized the geometry , installed a pipe and a jet kit , did the suspension and he went out as was very competitive his first year roadracing. How he was able to do it was because he has raced a bunch of flatrack and other types of bikes and he is an exceptional young rider , sure he was on a properly set up bike but his main advantage was just being comfortable on a bike. My advice is save your money on all the exotic stuff , get your bike set up properly and invest in a dirt bike and go out and ride it. Also a few years back when you had to add weight to a 600ss to compete in 750ss at the AMA we had to add 22lbs to make our 600 pass tech , at Road America it slowed our lap times by 1 sec. So i wouldn't worry about the weight thing so much , i'm sure it wouldn't make that big a difference on the regional level unless you are already doing 13's at blackhawk.
And don't forget about the school he went to, Jim.... I'm here to help.
If the guy winning was just a mid packer, it would kind of be different...
But as you stated, this is club racing. So, the playing field should be reasonably even in a production based class like supersport. CCS appears to have a deal that it can have scales available at all regional events. So, making the weight rules could be done.
Yes, the rider add's into the fact, and the rider we're talking about weighs about seventeen pounds...LOL!
I bet the rider continues to win, but the appearance of an unreasonable advantage is there. Making weight limits should eliminate some of the questioning of the bike, and give other riders something to shoot for (a minimum weight.)
What think you?
Yes, 1 second slower for 22 pounds more? But, with what, 110 hp? What happens when you have 70? That may make a much bigger difference when you have less HP. Still, though, you have a point. I don' t think it'd be much more than 2 seconds a lap with 70 HP.
But, then again, 2 seconds over 4 laps is quite a gap. Over a 1/2hour race, it's significant.
Nate
Ed Key has done 1:17's with his light SV650 and 73HP. I've done 1:13's on my 104HP (2001) GSXR600. I know his SV is quite a bit lighter than my Suzuki, and he's quite a bit lighter than me.
For reference...
:-/104? Dave, yours and my bike, done by the same guy, made more than 104 on pump gas! But reguardless, Dave I think I was a pretty decent example on a 125, different but hear me out. I average, I would be willing to bet 70lbs. some of them a full 100lbs. heavier than pretty much all my competitors on the rs125 I was on. As long as I rode smooth as possible, I usually was in contention, worst finish was in third at B-hawk behind two national dirt track riders who combined to maybe make my weight of 210. to make us add 10-20lbs. to a 600 to run in heavyweight classes won't make crap bit of diffence at the little tracks we ride at . BRING ON SOME RULE CHANGES!!!!!! ;D
My 1:13 was in 2001 when I dynoed it early in the year with 104. When I ran the 13, I was running Power Mist TO137 and the number one exhaust header was broken at the head.
Would it make a difference in the overall result? Probably not, but there needs to be some level of even handedness in Supersport; it is, after all, supposed to be production based.
Screw weight limits, Supersport should be all about, no more valve jobs, only relapping allowed, supension mods should be allowed, no boring whats so ever allowed. Exhaust, steering damper, jet kit or FI kits allowed, brake lines, no removal of any charging system parts, no removing any metal from the head PERIOD! Body work replaced, fairing stays replaced, case covers to hamper large oil spills, no degreeig the cams, gearing changes need to be allowed for making the racing more exciting.
Make this the easiest class for any street monkey, to be competetive in, right off the street . Right now there are so many grey lines in the rules that it becomes outragious to try and set up a new bike to be competetive immediatly for any one, well except I guess the guy with all the exotic metals. Instead of the rules saying what I can do, say what I can't and be specific. >:(
I agree. I think the motors should be left as close to stock as possible except for some maintenance.
Larry, our wonderful tech inspector, agrees. We talked with Kevin Elliott about it in August, and he said, "No."
Weight is the new frontier, so it's time to slow that down before it gets out of control.
OK here is what I have to say I wont say any names.
Without alot of money it is imposible to win light weight supersport. I tried hard all year long. I dont have a problem when another racers bike weighs 30lbs less than mine but HIS bike weighs 300 lbs. This is unfair for everyone else who runs this class. this class should be for a person that does not have alot of money and the rules alow someone with alot of money to win this class. THE RULES MUST BE CHANGED.
Quote...no boring whats so ever allowed...no removing any metal from the head PERIOD! ...no degreeig the cams...
Instead of the rules saying what I can do, say what I can't and be specific.
The only reason I'd hesitate to get behind these particular items is that these are maintenance items that can save you from having to throw out an otherwise salvageable engine. If I could keep from having to discard a motor by boring it 1mm over stock or by lightly skimming the head gasket surface, I can save a bunch of money. And, if I skim the head, the centerline separation between the crank and cams is going to change, so I'll need to degree the cams to compensate. Where's the unfair advantage in that?
If the rules were to say what you can't do, then they would be both voluminous and still full of loopholes. Locking down specific items as being disallowed would be an endless rock hunt. However, if they were to say that all modifications are illegal with the exception of the items that are specifically allowed, then there would be no ambiguity.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that we are not racing in CCS to earn a living. Let's reserve the really restrictive rulebooks for the professionals who are.
QuoteThe only reason I'd hesitate to get behind these particular items is that these are maintenance items that can save you from having to throw out an otherwise salvageable engine. If I could keep from having to discard a motor by boring it 1mm over stock or by lightly skimming the head gasket surface, I can save a bunch of money. And, if I skim the head, the centerline separation between the crank and cams is going to change, so I'll need to degree the cams to compensate. Where's the unfair advantage in that?
Exactly. I'll agree there.
And we are dealing with production based machines, so one bike might have differences in it that make it worse than another. Another might be better because the engine was assemble as per what the manufacturer wanted.
Money and Supersport.
I agree with Superbike Mike (M&M - GT Lights Champion) that supersport was originally in tended to be more production based. Allow the reasonable maintenance/performance items that are simple, valve jobs, cam timing, overbore, head resurfacing, etc.
Keep the charging system, put in a weight limit, mandate certain production items, frame, tank, swingarm, wheels, etc.
If we'd really like to make it even, weigh the rider and the bike together. I know it won't happen, so I'm throwing it out there just to be annoying.
QuoteIf we'd really like to make it even, weigh the rider and the bike together. I know it won't happen, so I'm throwing it out there just to be annoying.
I'm wondering where I would bolt on the extra 280 Lbs on my bike... some of you guys would have to be disqualified unless you went on a diet to make it more fair for us little guys. ;D