I need to build my own workstation to run some pretty wicked engineering software. Unfortunately, I"m stuck having to use Windows >:( I'm an Apple fan, so I"m thinking 64 bit because I use a G5 now. Anyone have experiance with the AMD 64 series? Someone mentioned it before, but I forgot who. I was going to just buy a machine, but after they load in all the crap at the factory such as AOL, I don't want to spend 6 months removing it. This is what I'm thinking:
AMD 64 FX55 Platinum Processor
MSI Neo Platinum Motherboard
4 GB RAM
(1) 36.5 GB 10k RPM Boot Drive
(1) 400 GB 7200 RPM Data Drive
ATI X800 XT Platinum 256 MB Video Card
700 Watt Power Supply
I pretty much have to build it myself because nobody makes something like this as an off the shelf item. This computer will be used stricktly as a standalone workstation, and won't even connect to the internet. Whatcha' guys think?
Incase your wondering, the software I'm running is PCAD, ORCAD, MENTOR, and AutoCAD. Most will be running at the same time, so awesome multitasking capabilites is an absolute must when it comes to the processor.
Also, Microcrap has a BETA version of Windows 64 Bit. Anyone try it yet? Worth anything? I'd like to give it a try but if it's worthless, I'll run a standard version of WinXP Pro.
Any suggestions are welcome. The computers only function is PCB design, real time graphics rendering, and "live" in-circuit emulation which really puts the processor thru it's paces. If multiple FX55 processors are recommended, I was thinking 2 of the same on a Tyan server board.
Um - what are you doing with this - redesigning the space shuttle? :o
I have a PII 450 with 32MB of RAM and a 1GB harddrive for a lot cheaper ;D
QuoteUm - what are you doing with this - redesigning the space shuttle? :o
I have a PII 450 with 32MB of RAM and a 1GB harddrive for a lot cheaper ;D
lol... nah, designing circuit boards. My old workstation just isn't doing it any more, and that's a Xenon 2.8GHz model with 2 GB of RAM. Time to upgrade. The software I'm using kinda puts a beating to the systems.
I believe Microsoft's 64 bit OS is for servers only. Not a workstation kind of product at this time.
I don't think a 64 bit processor will do you much good if the program is not designed to take advantage of it.
If the stuff you are doing is going to use the hard drive a lot, get 2 10K drives. Much faster seek time. Use a raid 1+0 config to mirror them.
Not sure you would really need a 700 watt power supply, but it seems like you like to spend money on unnecessary stuff, so go ahead. The reality of this latest processor is that you will pay a lot more money for only 200 extra MHZ and you will not see a bump in core speed compared to a 3800 or so, but you will see a big difference in price just to have the latest stuff.
Is RAID 1+0 faster that RAID 1? RAID 1 has a slower I/O speed, because it has to write to both disks, right? Does the "+0" do something about that?
Hmm... I was told that a 700 watt powersupply and a lot of fans are going to be required in this type of system. Who knows ??? I'm more or less concerned with expandability. I'd like to get a motherboard that will hold 8-12 GB of RAM so later on as I need it I can buy 1 GB sticks when I need them, but without spending tons of money on cases and such I can't find a good motherboard. Most ATX type boards only hold 4 GB that I've found. RAM is the biggest issue. The piece of crap I have now is a pig, and I can't upgrade it anymore. 2GB is all the motheboard can take, and that's not enough. I don't even power down the machine anymore because it's annoying waiting for the thing to boot up and having to relaunch all the software. It takes forever. More or less, this machine is going to make money, so spending a little extra for having great expandability and speed aren't a concern. Plus, I'm not paying for it. Work is so I don't care. As far as 64 bit goes, your right the software isn't there yet, but it will be so that's why I'd like to do a 64 bit system. I hate Intel, but the only processor I found from them that I actually like is the Extreme Edition P4 for 2MB cache. But, those have overheating issues from what I understand, and everyone that I talk to says go with the FX55 over the P4 Extreme. The cost is the same. As far as graphics are concerned, awesome graphics are an absolute must. I understand the ATI board I"m talking about is a "gaming" graphics card, but I need the 3D along with DVI outputs, and Nvidia quit making the 6800 and I can't find it anywhere without paying a premium. I can get the ATI cheaper, and it's supposed to be a bad ass card.
And someone else suggested the same thing on the hard drives, but I also have a tape drive with auto back up, so I don't know what to do. I'm going to pull the tape drive out of the current system and add it.
QuoteIs RAID 1+0 faster that RAID 1? RAID 1 has a slower I/O speed, because it has to write to both disks, right? Does the "+0" do something about that?
Yes, the +0 is called "striping" which increases seek speed. RAID 1 is slower for writing to the disk since it has to write to both disks at once, but it's faster for reading since it can also read from both disks at once.
And what's with the 15k RPM Hard Drives. Is that just burst speed?
I wanna load the OS on a 10K 36.5 GB and then store files on a 400GB. I could do 2 10K drives, but I also need alot of room for storage. I could always do an external 1394 200 GB or something too :-/ Who knows. Too many options...
QuoteYes, the +0 is called "striping" which increases seek speed. RAID 1 is slower for wiring to the disk since it has to write to both disks at once, but it's faster for reading since it can also read from both disks at once.
Why are some of those drives $200 and then some $600 ? They all look the same. Seagate has two with similar specs, yet one is $400 more ??? This crrap is too damn confusing. Glad I work on embedded stuff 8)
I am not saying you need to go with the P4 chip, all I am saying is that a 3800 is supposed to be just as fast as the FX55 for a lower cost. I guess if work is paying for it who cares though. One note, overheating on a computer is kind of the same as overheating on a bike. You just need to get a better radiator. ;)
For a CAD program or things of that nature, RAM is king, but it also depends on how much RAM can the program use wisely.
A tape drive has nothing to do with hard drive seek speed. It's just to backup data.
Alrighty, so...
Since RAM is the biggest issue, who makes a motherboard that will hold massive RAM (8,12,14,15 GB) that will fit in a standard ATX case and that will hold a 3800 or FX55 processor or maybe two to four for later expandibility? I don't care about audio. All I need is USB 2.0 (4) and a couple 1394.
As far as the software is concerned, all of them are power pigs, especially PCAD. What they recommend as minimum requirements is a joke. They call for a P3 with minimum 256 RAM. I don't think that software could even be launched with that. Running PCAD and the full version of AutoCAD at the same time pretty much makes my current machine unusable for any other programs. It'll take a simple program like MS Word about a full minute to launch with those two running at the same time. I have to multitask the programs most of the time.
I found a Tyan board that will fit 1-4 processors and up to 16 GB or RAM, but the case is "special" and comes with a 900 watt power supply. They said case and power supply is about $900 alone for that motherboard..
I'm dealing with a "high end" computer parts store that stocks server boards, ect.
They (computer store) recommended this motherboard:
http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderk8qs.html
QuoteI have a PII 450 with 32MB of RAM and a 1GB harddrive for a lot cheaper ;D
I could use it to play my favorite game:
http://www.leisuresuitlarry.com/age_gate.jsp?url=http%3A//www.leisuresuitlarry.com/main.html
I am currently running an AMD 64 3000 on an MSI Neo FSR. Only 1 gig of RAM, matched Corsair pair and the machine is a complete ROCKET and has been very very stable. I leave it to auto overclock as needed. Video card is a Radeon 9800 Pro. Power is just a 450watt and only thing I have done was install an additional case fan on the upper side of the box blowing out. OS is XP Pro sp2. Temp averages 48 Celcius even after hours straight playing.
For 3D gaming it can't be beat. Framerates are incredible. In the new Everquest 2 Beta I can even turn on the graphics to the level where grass parts as you walk thru it without any loss in framerate.
I have never run any of the stuff you are going to run though.
First thing forget using fans for cooling it. Liquid cool it. Make a couple chilling towers, put them behind the desk and temps should drop like a rock.
Hell my XP2000+ (1.677Mhz stock) I OC'ed to 1.8 and have had it to 2 (started to become unstable) and it rarely gets CPU temps over 35C. Then again I have 9 fans in my case. 1 80mm on the cpu, one blowing more air to it, 6 as intake/exhaust, 1 video card 80mm fan. Not including the chipset fan or the ps fans. Sounds like a freaking jet. Next rig will be liquid cooled since I'm gonna build a FX-55 or FX57 (depending on which is available next summer) and overclock it into the 3Ghz range. Should be my last standard computer I build for myself until the next generation of computer systems show up in mid to late 08.
Does XP handle memory better than Win2000? I've had some problems with memory with BIG cad models (ie- 10,000 part Pro/E models), and from what I understood Win2000 couldn't utilize more than 2 Gig of RAM. In those instances I just used my old clunker HP Unix workstation (that had 5 gig of ram). And I've never used Mentor on a PC, only Unix.
-z.
Does all that stuff come attached to a mouse ?
QuoteFirst thing forget using fans for cooling it. Liquid cool it. Make a couple chilling towers, put them behind the desk and temps should drop like a rock.
Hell my XP2000+ (1.677Mhz stock) I OC'ed to 1.8 and have had it to 2 (started to become unstable) and it rarely gets CPU temps over 35C. Then again I have 9 fans in my case. 1 80mm on the cpu, one blowing more air to it, 6 as intake/exhaust, 1 video card 80mm fan. Not including the chipset fan or the ps fans. Sounds like a freaking jet. Next rig will be liquid cooled since I'm gonna build a FX-55 or FX57 (depending on which is available next summer) and overclock it into the 3Ghz range. Should be my last standard computer I build for myself until the next generation of computer systems show up in mid to late 08.
That's what the guy said at the computer store. Liquid cooling. I thought he was B.S.'n me so I blew it off at first. :-/ Then he showed me the $600 liquid cooling systems they had. I was like :o
QuoteDoes XP handle memory better than Win2000? I've had some problems with memory with BIG cad models (ie- 10,000 part Pro/E models), and from what I understood Win2000 couldn't utilize more than 2 Gig of RAM. In those instances I just used my old clunker HP Unix workstation (that had 5 gig of ram). And I've never used Mentor on a PC, only Unix.
-z.
I couldn't tell you. I'm an Apple guy and the ONLY reason I even go near a Microcrap product is because they don't offer the software I need for Apple. >:(
QuoteDoes all that stuff come attached to a mouse ?
Nah, usually after you spend $7K to build the system, you have to save up to buy a mouse :P ;D
QuoteFirst thing forget using fans for cooling it. Liquid cool it. Make a couple chilling towers, put them behind the desk and temps should drop like a rock.
Hell my XP2000+ (1.677Mhz stock) I OC'ed to 1.8 and have had it to 2 (started to become unstable) and it rarely gets CPU temps over 35C. Then again I have 9 fans in my case. 1 80mm on the cpu, one blowing more air to it, 6 as intake/exhaust, 1 video card 80mm fan. Not including the chipset fan or the ps fans. Sounds like a freaking jet. Next rig will be liquid cooled since I'm gonna build a FX-55 or FX57 (depending on which is available next summer) and overclock it into the 3Ghz range. Should be my last standard computer I build for myself until the next generation of computer systems show up in mid to late 08.
I bought everything last night, and ordered a case and a 800 watt powersupply. I haven't touched the cooling issue, and now I have to find another graphics card because the X800 Platinum card I wanted isn't available anymore I guess. Any recommendations on a good 256 graphics card for 3D and real time rendering with single or preferrably dual DVI.
???
This is what I have now:
Tyan Thunder K8SR
(2) AMD Opteron 64 250
8 x 1 GB DDR400 RAM
(2) Seagate 36 GB 10k RPM Hard Drives
Case and 800 watt power supply
All I need now is the video card, and to cover the cooling issues. The processors came with a heatsink and a fan in each box. What else do I have to do?
Who told you that the ATI X800XT PE is not available? Not everyone carries them, but they are available if you look.
A lot of the cooling issues depend on the type of case you bought and the number of fans it has. One thing you could do is build it as is and install monitoring software. If the processor temp stays above 60 degrees, add cooling fans (or a liquid cooling system if you really need it...you shouldn't if you are not overclocking it). Also, for the processors, make sure you use paste when mounting the fans. I am not sure what yours came with, but those stupid little pads are not as good when it comes to heat transfer.
Make sure you update the BIOS on the motherboard.
The advantages to liquid cooling are many, but one to really think about are the noise issues of running a ton of fans. If cost is not a real huge issue, I'd check into liquid cooling just for the noise factor alone.
You are building a monster system, how about doing a multi screen display?
Then you would be the envy of the gaming community. (that means you should mod the case as well, try granny apple green pearl base with a house of kolor lime candy) ;)
QuoteWho told you that the ATI X800XT PE is not available? Not everyone carries them, but they are available if you look.
The same place I bought all this stuff from. They are an ATI dealer. He called and said they aren't available. Said that they are releasing a better one shortly. Recommended I go with the ATI FireGL 9800 or some $1500 PNY card for what I'm using it for. Either way, he'd have to order any of them because the best card they stock is the 9800 PRO. Who know's ??? They stock alot of high end parts. Mostly server/workstation components. About the only place I've ever seen Fibre Channel Cards in stock :-/ Not really sure what to do. DVI is an absolute must, and I need 3D with Real Time Rendering Capabilities. Not sure if that FireGL is really worth the money. Offered it at $550.00 which is the best I've seen for it so far. Better than online prices I've found. :-/
QuoteThe advantages to liquid cooling are many, but one to really think about are the noise issues of running a ton of fans. If cost is not a real huge issue, I'd check into liquid cooling just for the noise factor alone.
You are building a monster system, how about doing a multi screen display?
Then you would be the envy of the gaming community. (that means you should mod the case as well, try granny apple green pearl base with a house of kolor lime candy) ;)
I don't really care too much as long as it is so loud that it's annoying. Just don't want to have the system go haywire on me.
As far as the system, it has to be a monster for the simple fact that time is money. That's how I pried the AMEX out of my boss's hands ;D This machine is soley going to be used for engineering. No crap on it. Just installing what I need and the only reason it will ever connect to the "internet" is to FTP files back and forth to headquarters. Other than that, it won't be connected. Can't risk the virus' and such.
Regarding displays, I already have a multimonitor set up. (2) Apple 20" displays. That's why I need DVI so bad.
:o Now if I could just find one of these I'd be set:
http://3dlabs.com/products/product.asp?prod=272
For a video card my work computer has an NVIDIA Quqadro4 550 XGL. Probably seriously out of date but works well for 3-d rendering and supports dual monitors ;D
We used to run these cool Elsa cards which could actually be optimized to different CAD applications, but when we got new computer cases they ran too hot and died.
-z.
Ya know, I"m starting to wonder if it's really gonna make a substantial difference between a $400.00 9800 Pro or a $1000.00 card :-/ ???
I went to the computer store again, and asked what the baddest grapics card ever is, and he showed me a $18,000.00 card :o I about crapped my pants. :o
QuoteI went to the computer store again, and asked what the baddest grapics card ever is, and he showed me a $18,000.00 card :o I about crapped my pants. :o
You wanted to know... ;D
Remember when the baddest computers were also the biggest. Think Cray, think room sized, now just really think...my out of date desk top can do quicker number crunching :D :D :D ;D
Quote:o Now if I could just find one of these I'd be set:
http://3dlabs.com/products/product.asp?prod=272
You just have to look around...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3762&item=5137998299&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
;D I think it's calling my name.
Quotemy out of date desk top can do quicker number crunching :D :D :D ;D
Couldn't touch my Dual G5 8)
On the liquid cooling stuff, is there anything I should stay away from? Brands?