Howdy ya'll, newbie to this forum, but I've got a question for ya'll: I've done a couple track days on my '94FZR1000 (great bike;) but want to get into racing next season. I'm debating which bike to get (I'm sure you've seen this Q before, but I tried searching, weird search engine). I'm trying to decide between the SV650 twin or an R6/GSXR600 inline 4. Which would be better for a novice? I definitely want to do 600's just so that I learn to ride properly.....
From what I understand the SV would be a great beginner bike b/c it doesn't have the mid/high hp which forces you to really learn to get good at corner speeds. But is it hard to be competitive in the classes that the SV races?
I'm also on a budget here, so a used race bike for less than $3,800 or so is what I'm after. The cheaper the better so that I can afford a trailer/tire warmers etc, but I still want to be somewhat competitive, so probably a late 90's/early 200X is what I'm after. I've seen an older R6 or two for sale that I could get for less, and from what I understand these are great track bikes. Are they very forgiving? Am I asking for more wrecks with a GSXR/R6 than with the SV b/c of the high rpm corners?
Any advice or suggestions? Thanks ;D
SV all the way...
600's are readily available but the classes are so much larger, plus they go through tires far quicker than the SV will.
I believe it's harder to be competitive on the 600 vice the 650 due to the sheer number of people in the class...
A good rider on a 650 will absolutely give a 600 a run for its money.
you should buy my 2000 750
i started on a 750 after doing trackdays on a R1
and had no problems and no regrets
its a little more money but its ready to go
Brian
I raced Lightweight when I started, although not on an SV. They were new then, and beyond my budget. It was the most fun I've had in my entire life.
After a few years, I got a 600, and then a 750. Racing stopped being fun. Why? Costs went through the roof with the larger bikes, and there was a newer model introduced every 2 seconds to make whatever I owned at the time a stone before I even finished it! My GSXR750 ate tires, brake pads, gears and chains like a crack addict uses up tinfoil and steel wool! And the thing wasn't even built! All it had was suspension and a slip-on muffler.
2005 will be my 7th year of racing. I sold the GSXR, and am trying to find the money to get an SV. I know that I will actually be able to afford to keep it running. Besides, Lightweight has become a spec class these days. If you have an SV, you'll be racing for the podium against all the other SVs.
I'll bet you know which bike I'd recommend, don't you?
If you're going to start racing, you might as well start off on a bike that's going to really teach you how to riding and forces you to work on the bike and not be afraid of working on it.
Therefore, my choice is a two-stroke 250. Either an Aprilia RS250 or a TZ250. You'll have a great time and get to ride a pure bred racing machine.
Oh yeah, all of the best riders in the world have ridden two-strokes. Even a Super somebody on this forum.
THIS ONE... :D ready to go racin for your price. Spare set of wheels, extra rear sets, all the gearing you could ever use..
http://www.jenningsgp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2678
The smaller the bike the more it makes you work on corner speed and the minimal amount of braking needed to maintain control. The bigger the bike the more fear you have going into a corner as it goes through a corner slower(generally) and makes up for it by speed on the straightaways. Other good thing is the development and changes to the lightweight field is generally slower (IE OEM come out with a radically new class dominating bike every 10-15 years for lightweight as opossed to 600 or larger classes which has a new dominating bike every year or two, by dominating talking about a bike that is ~.5 second lap faster than its competitors for the most part in AM ranks a good rider can be behind the curve ie a bike that is 1 or 2 even 3 or more times removed from the top of the heap and beat riders on cream of crop bikes)
So in closing I would get the smallest bike you physically fit on that has a competitive class to ride in and go with that. A small bike that is so outclassed that you are out powered everywere is no fun IE YSR50 in ULWSB :P Other thing is the first year of racing is going to be your most expensive year (again in general) you buy a bike, gear, shade(canopy), trailer (in many cases then have to get bigger vehicle to tow the trailer that salesman said a Yugo could pull but needs a 3/4 ton truck in reality), set bike up (suspension, bodywork), school, crash damage (most riders find the ground more their first year than any other year). any thing you can do to minimize the costs is better (hell I started out with a 33' trailer, a 3/4 diesel, GSXR750, and stayed at hotels and backed down to a single and had more fun the last few years loading it in the back of the truck and camping at the track) and a lightweight bike is a cheaper bike to start (the FZR, Hawk and SV have all been or were sold for many years; spare parts are fairly plentiful and inexpensive) Other is the are easier on parts they abuse tires less, tires are normally a little cheaper, and when you do crash since the bike is normally going at a slower speed it is not damaged as much and even more important you are not as damaged (that is not to say a lightweight bike is "safe" a rider on a YSR50 was killed at a race in Waco a few years back).
I started this two days ago and maybe your questions have already been answered but I was determined this morning to finish this so I knowing K3 he has probably pushed the small bike thing already with better reasoning and I know for sure better writing skills.
QuoteOh yeah, all of the best riders in the world have ridden two-strokes. Even a Super somebody on this forum.
Scott Russell tried a GP bike once before winning World Superbike Championships. Times have changed.
An Aprilia RS250 is NOT a GP bike.
TZ250's are. They require reasonable maintenance and care that someone getting involved in doesn't need...unless they have a fetish for playing with and maintaining a bike during a race weekend and between race weekends...or you have lots of money and pay a decent road racing two-stroke mechanic.
Reality is that if you get so good on a race bike that someone pays you...you're probably gonna be riding a four stroke. Additionally, there really hasn't been too many problems for MotoGP riders getting comfortable with their bikes vs the 500 two strokes.
You're new? Cost has to be a consideration.
Tires can cost you more than a bike and there is no residual equity. At least you can sell parts off the bike. Unfortunately, I usually have to run the tires on my 600 down to nothing...they really aren't sellable after I'm done with them.
So, an SV is the current king.
Turn key, push button, ride.
Remember also, that its not the number of laps you turn in practice, but the quality of those laps. If you can get outstanding instruction...do it. If not, latch on to someone that really knows something. With a racing community filled with riders that last only a few years...well, there are a lot of conflicting messages out there.
And K3 comes through :D
With the Aprilia RS250 I was trying to suggest riding it as a means to learn about corner speed, while also have a bike with a full assortment of adjustments built in. Besides you can run an entire season or more on a base level RS250 without ever having to open it up. In many ways that is why I would say it is a superior beginners bike.
You can just hop on an SV and ride, but eventually you're going to have to adjust the suspension. In it's stock form it's full of compromises, which could generate bad habits and a lot of wrenching depending on how much the rider desires to "get-it-right".
The down side of the Aprilia is the power. SV's can consistently run under 1:20 at Blackhawk all day, while the Aprilia can do it, but it will definitely be pushing the limits. At that time, the TZ becomes the superior two-stroke racing machine, which bring a more regular maintanence routine.
You guys rock...thanks for the input ;D
I've got two bikes now, both fourstrokes and can do most of the work on them, so no, as far as two-strokes go I don't really want to spend a bunch more time learning how to work on them and then spend a bunch of time working on them :o I guess I'm being a pansy, but I'd just rather stick to something familiar....
So yes, I'm definitely now leaning towards the SV, seems like the general response I get is that the bike is just really fun to ride, and that it will force me to become a good rider, not just lazy and whack the throttle in the straights!!
We'll I've already got my leathers and boots (I did some trackdays last year on my FZR1000 but lowsided it...well actually twice :-[...decided I've already got the gear which I can't sell b/c all scratched up, and I've got the taste in my mouth of racing, so I might as well pay up and get a good bike to learn on.....something a bit more forgiving and cheaper to repair than my street bike!!!). Actually, even though getting into racing is expensive, I'm justifying it with the rationale that I'm kindof bored w/ riding on the streets now, and that means I won't be trying to get my kicks on all the mountain passes around here (so more $$=less danger on the highway, which is probably smart)...gaurdrails, gravel, other cars, cliffs etc=bad news bears!!
Yeah, I've been looking for trailers, I'm figuring $500 is about right for an open 6X8, and I'm going to just put a hitch on my fiancee's '96 Subaru legacy wagon for $200 (I would like a truck, but the bike purchase is going to wipe me out....). Besides, between a bike and trailer, probably only 1000lbs, well under the Subi's 3500gtw. Then I'll most likely camp out at the track...doesn't sound so bad to me ;D
So then I'm on the race-prepped SV hunt!! I've seen a number of 'em around for under $4K with Penske/Traxxion/dampner/sharkskinz/sliders/etc...I'm real glad to hear that their tires are cheaper in the first place and that they won't eat as many of them as well. I'll probably take the fairings off of the one I buy to help avoid the paintshop!!
The SV is a good choice. When you're learning a gas-n-go bike is good, because you can worry more about riding than setup. With the TZ, I might spend a good portion of practice getting jetting and gearing dailed in, pulling the tranny during lunch to make an internal change, etc. Once it is set up it is awesome. Personally I'm a gear head and this is part of the fun. Not so for most others.
The SVs are also so plentiful that you'll always be able to ask someone a setup question. With a less popular bike such as a hawk or rvf400, there aren't as many people to ask for help.
Not to say some newbies shouldn't be on a 2-stroke. It seems like the guys who have done a lot of MX on 2-strokes but not much street bike riding excel on them. They are already used to the power characteristics and the maintanace, they can feel where the jetting is at, and are used to light bikes where body english makes a bigger difference in handling. Some 16 year old MX kids can fly on a 125.
-z.
Is getting a pre-2003 SV w/o the fuel injection a huge hinderance? Am I probably more likely to be affected by rider skill than the carbs?
nope.
the FI bikes only have 3-4 more HP. no big deal. the carbed bikes are cheaper, since everyone is selling them to trade up to a newer bike to stay eligible for suzuki contingency. So look for a 2000, 2001 SV, all race prepped, without a built up motor.
Does a 2000 model SV650 with race cams, 2mm over bore, degreeable cam sprocket, and a Serdi valve job with JE pistons considered risky to buy? Does this work stress other engine internals/transmission?
SV looks to be a good option for a number of new racers. One issue you may want to consider is some reliability problems that have occurred on '03 and '04 SV's..... see this link:
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1083779810;start=9
My understanding is the '05 will be reworked to hopefully eliminate these problems.
For that reason going with a pre '03 might make sense for you (as well as the lower purchase price for an older bike).
Rick
QuoteSV looks to be a good option for a number of new racers. One issue you may want to consider is some reliability problems that have occurred on '03 and '04 SV's..... see this link:
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1083779810;start=9
My understanding is the '05 will be reworked to hopefully eliminate these problems.
For that reason going with a pre '03 might make sense for you (as well as the lower purchase price for an older bike).
Rick
FWIW, I put 50 street miles on my new '03 SV this year then raced it all season without a single problem (well, without a single
bike-related problem :P ;) ). Bone stock motor. Haven't opened it up yet to see how things are going inside, but put over 1k racing miles on it.
Your mileage may vary... 8)
QuoteDoes a 2000 model SV650 with race cams, 2mm over bore, degreeable cam sprocket, and a Serdi valve job with JE pistons considered risky to buy? Does this work stress other engine internals/transmission?
It can be a bit more work to get to run properly, you can't race in in Supersport, etc. Each used bike is individualistic. You're not just buying a whole bunch of parts...you're buying a package.
Really, the most important part of any race bike is going to be the quality of the suspension components, and then whether the owner/rider was knowledgeable enough to figure out the proper shock lengths, fork ride heights, etc. That will make it easy to ride. I use the GMD Computrack system on my bikes, and I have enough experience to do it all on my own...but the time it takes me is too valuable in the form of track time and tires to waste time.
So, if the motor is all done up and there's no suspension...well, the power might not get to the ground properly, and it may be a bear to ride.
Well the bike has got all the usual race stuff...incll/ Penske rear, and set up front forks with race tech .85 springs in them with imulaters and he has a set of .90 or .95 springs extra, extra sprockets, Cheetah, dampner rearsets etc etc...he's asking $4500.....
Yeah, heh heh.... Give me the guy's e mail address, and I'll, um.... check it out for you. Yeah, that's what I'll do! No need to worry that I might buy it out from under you....
Where's Edgar?
Edgar Dorn can shed some light on this setup. Basically, a built SV is no simple intro bike for any racer. The stock engines seem to be solid, but the built ones tend to go bad quickly. This is another reason why I stated you should get an Aprilia RS250. You get a lot of adjustment and great components without the reliability concerns. Will you be the fastest out there? Probably not, but you can have a lot of fun and focus on turning (entry speed, lines, etc.). A full-on two-stroke will be a lot of work. Before you make that step, build a superbike SV with a stock motor, unless you are prepared for some regular maintenance. I don't imagine that a built SV requires any less maintenance than a full-on two-stroke.
Hmm, sorry I was down in Oklahoma for the "Gold Rush" Hare scrambles race. Damn, I hurt today, but worth every minute. ;D ;D
I would say that SV's go something like this:
99-02:
If you bore them out up to 2 MM, then you can use stock rods, but you are pushing it. Bigger than that and you pretty much must use aftermarket rods or you are risking big engine failure. Find out what kind of rods are in there. Also, find out which cams are being used. The Megacycle stage 2 cams really need a lot of upkeep since they are pretty aggresive. You will need to keep an eye on the valve springs and keepers since they tend to break, even the aftermarket one's. Yosh cams are a lot milder.
If the bike is putting out more than 85 hp, then maintenance really goes up quite a bit (The tranny can be a weak point on a built SV). A bone stock SV is very reliable. I have seen a few last 2-3 full race seasons with no internal engine upkeep. Granted, you should rebuild them after a couple of seasons since they get real tired. Do you know how much power that bike is making? From the mods you are talking about, 80-85 hp should be about where it's at.
The amount of maintenance that it will need also depends on who built the bike. A well built motor should last at least a full season, as long as everything does it's job.
03-04:
They went to a lighter rod and you should not bore them out more than one over without using aftermarket rods. A few people have seen some catastrophic rod failure with the new bikes even with stock motors. The 03+ models (once all set up) do handle better than the older bikes. It seems like the new frame really helped that.
One thing is to always keep your oil level on the high side. This is pretty important to prevent rod bearing failures. Lot's of SV's have spun the front rod bearing. It's one of their weak points.
One thing to consider: Even though a built SV is not legal for supersport, it wil make you more competitive on the other classes, such as thunderbike, LWGP, supertwins, etc. It's kind of a tradeoff.
Allright, that's what I was looking for! Yes 80-84 hp is what he's quoting...but you're right, I think for now I should stick w/ less maintenance and just have some fun racing,,, a more stock motor is then the direction that I'm heading, even though it means I'll be on a bit slower of a bike.....
Sooo, I've also been talking to another guy w/ a 1999 SV with these mods (actually a pic says 1000words!):
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv237%2Fnbot1%2Fbike%2520pics%2Fsv6502.gif&hash=503fdc399215b4fc9e1dfb5a8275bbdb939f8f41)
The pistons are also into what's now a 69Xcc(700), any advice on the big bore job? pros/cons?
So besides keeping the oil on the upper for the rod bearing, what else should I look out for...nevermind, I'll go look thru the forums and do my due reading!!!
Might be worth talking to Lee about this bike...
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccsclass;action=display;num=1097955341
He has lots of spares to go with the bike too.
My understanding is that Lee bought it from Mark Junge so it is very well set up.....
Rick
Sorry wannabe, but that's a different bike...minus two points for the error, but plus three for the effort, so..........
Lee's bike is sold to one of my former students, I believe.
Nbot, a picture is worthless.
Paint, stickers, and a list of parts is only paint, stickers, and a list of parts.
I think I stated this once before, and I'll state it again...
A bike is NOT a sum of it's parts. Put those same parts on one bike, then put them on another. Would they work the same way? No. Give the bike to a tuner or a rider that has knowledge of set up and all, the bike will work better for the rider. The rider IS important as the one that is usually the most responsible for stating problems with the bike then making changes to shock length, spring rate, etc. As a new racer, that is very important. I work with new racers....meaning not your average rider's school guy, but guys that have been to rider's school, but not recognize that their "education" lacked something. You don't just "toss it in" or "brake later"...there is an amount of feel that you should get. And you can get lucky with a bike that has good feel, or you will have to make changes to the bike to make it right. You can learn how to do that yourself through years and years of racing, if you can afford it, you can work with someone that might know something, which there are few of, or you can get the bike set up by a GMD Computrack store... again, I use http://4and6.com ...and I know how to make changes.
So, that bike you're looking at has "all the parts". Does the guy have notes on changes he made track to track? I try to have gearing notes and some kind of information about rear shock ride heights that I ran at different tracks.
What springs does it have? How much does he weigh? High compression pistions? Ok, does he have jetting notes for different tracks? If not, you're gonna have to figure out what jets to run as the high compression pistions are going to make it a little more finikey...do you have the knowledge to know how to change the jetting based on altitude, temperature, and/or humidity?
Nothing against the bike....but...
Pictures don't mean much.
Related to this topic..
Why do used race SV650's seem to cost as much if not more than the used race 600's
Charlie
QuoteRelated to this topic..
Why do used race SV650's seem to cost as much if not more than the used race 600's
Charlie
Hmm, I would say supply and demand. Not that much demand for older 600's since they are not as competitive against a 2005 R6/GSXR, but a 99 SV 650 can still be a competitive bike even though it's 6 years old.
Allright, allright Dave...I'm a getting your point that there's a lot to go into a bike besides the parts....suspension setup/jetting/and more....I'm trying not to get in over my head here and keep it KISS....he weighs 150 but said he's got the front set up pretty stiff b/c that's how he likes it, so me at 165/170lbs "might" be just right. I live in durango, CO, so not many shops around here to help out, but there is a reputable dyno-tuner in Albuquerque NM which is where the bike is (PJ's Triumph). I also understand that a dyno run is much easier in the long run for getting jets spot on...I have some basic knowledge of jetting from working on my own DR350 (getting it jetted for 10,000'+ mountain passes) and my FZR1000 whose carbs I've also leaned out....but I'm no expert by far!! I've never rebuilt my own forks before, so I would probably have to pay up for that....But again, I'm not necessarily rich so I don't have thousands to just go and be throwing around to shops to just fix everything right up, that's why I was looking to get more of a forgiving bike in the first place, get the suspension dialed in "reasonably so" to my weight, and the jetting and just have some fun.......I did however read completely thru your site and 4&6 and realize that a bunch more dough would be handy, although if I was anywhere near your state I think getting some other riders to spend some time with you is fairly affordable. Anyways, I do appreciate your advice, and I suppose that what I should take from it is that "sure it looks like a decent bike, but don't expect to just hop on and have it behave perfectly--spend some time and money on tuning it". Correct?
I would suggest that you purchase a newer 600. You get most of what you need adjustment wise, without having to spend dough send parts places to make it work. Since you ride a large displacement bike anyway, you'll probably do well on it straight-away.
I dearly love my friend and Mentor Super Dave, but I feel that a translation of his previous post is in order.
There is no such thing as an out-of-the-box, turn-key race bike. YOU will be required to maintain it, and dial it in. It must be sprung and valved for your weight and level of agression, then properly tweeked with the adjusters and ride heights. This will take much fiddling, and the suspension may have to go back to your builder a few times before it suits you.
Don't dispair. Buy what you want. That SV looks like a decent bike for you. I know you'll have fun on it. I also know that it won't be as useless as yesterday's newspaper in one model year like every 600cc bike ever built. The suspension stuff is something that every racer has to learn about and pay for, regardless of what he chooses to ride. You'll need to choose a suspension guy who attends your local races and provides trackside support. He and the tire guy can help you tremendously. So can a coach like Super Dave. Don't overthink this. Just get what you want, and go have some fun!
I have 2 cents! Can I play?
(As a relatively new racer with 2 whole years under my belt......)
For several years I'd been doing track days, and I knew I wanted to race. My street bike was an R1. It was fast. I was a good street rider. I thought, "Hmmmm, maybe I could just switch it into a race bike." ("It'll be great!")
I got some excellent advice from someone in the industry who, after I mentioned my burgeoning plan, must've been struggling not to laugh in my face.....
He told me to start in the Sportsman Class.
Thankfully, I don't have much of an ego, so I was off to the classified ads.
I have 2 points:
-I bought a used Honda cbr 600 F2 to compete in Thunderbike. It has been a good bike, but on hindsight an SV650 would've allowed for more opportunities to race in other classes (competitively).
Racing in the sportsman class has been an excellent experience. It was nice, at first, to be on the track with smaller grids. Later, I began to wish for more competition, but learning the basics has remained an attainable goal.
-I always knew racing would be pricey....But I had no idea! That being said, my initial budget for the race bike included having it totally done at a GMD center. It was still painfully expensive. But, there has been no better single source of confidence in my short racing career knowing my bike was straight, plus the geometry & suspension were set up. (Although fresh tires have always made me feel warm & fuzzy.)
I had excellent baseline settings from which to start, plus I had someone to call for advice on changes as the season wore on.
In conclusion, K3 is right.....At the end of the day, just go race. There will be lots of time to experience heartache & frustration at the track, so try to enjoy the experience of buying your first race bike....And go race!
Cheers,
QuoteI suppose that what I should take from it is that "sure it looks like a decent bike, but don't expect to just hop on and have it behave perfectly--spend some time and money on tuning it". Correct?
You're close.
You need a bike that you can turn the key and push the button. That is really important. A decent SV or a 600 in a reasonable production form should be able to do that. A ratty one might not.
If you have to worry about jetting, well, you're not worring about how to make the bike give you feel. If you don't have any feel, you'll go slower or crash trying to go faster. It's all about set up.
I'm not sure how many times I've posted the top speed times from MotoGP where Rossi is not the fastest, but he has the fastest lap times.
Mladin hasn't had the fastest top speed either, but often he's on the pole.
That's because they focus on making the bike give the rider the best feel and feed back to exploit the traction that is available through the corner...going in, the middle, and getting out.
Dyno tuning is great, but it can be related to the person using the dyno and the dyno itself. What happens in a dyno room is a ball park...might not be what you'd really need at Second Creek or someplace. And if you're busy trying to get around a motor "rideability problem"...you're probably not going to have the time to figure out how to keep the rear end hooked up coming out of the "Rat's Nest". Which is going to allow you to have faster lap times? Suspension issues, by far.
So, if I'm going to make a recommendation, find a bike that has a motor in decent production form. If it's had a valve job or something, great. Probably flows a bit more air at low lifts...that will help the bike accelerate, and that's what you NEED. Turn key, push button, ride, change oil, add gas.
With that, suspension. There are good shocks and bad shocks. Some need more care and feeding. Some don't work for very long before needing a rebuild.
4&6 might have a cost related to it, but how long would it take you to get the bike to that point? Would you ever get it to the point that they can get it to?
Proper handling is related to overall motorcycle geometry, first. Spring rates are going to be second, but they are related to the overall geometry while in motion. Dampening is probably third, but it is related to motorcycle geometry under loads.
Guy's got a heavy spring? Probably a geometry issue that he doesn't understand. Everyone is different, and that's fine. Could it be better? Well, people make decisions, often times, to leave it alone " 'cause I know how it works..." Might be able to make it better, but they never change. And that's why most racers last about two or three years.
That make it a bit more concise?
It's all about the suspension set up...
Hey Super Dave, thanks, I'm a getting it...not enough attention gets put into the suspension by newbies, thus hindering their riding development.
Aren't Penske's a quality shock? I would think so given their price (not that that is always an indicator but usually...)
And the springs: I'll take the time to get them dialed in right to my weight and then try to talk to some "experts" about the feeling that I should be getting from them and keep tuning, and keep tuning.....I believe that this is your biggest point about racing, keeping the bike stable and smooth around the track.
As far as the bore on the bike, I talked to the shop that did it and they said that since the stock carbs are on there (and not FCR's/flatsides) that jetting to the 700 will not be a huge or complicatedly precise deal. They said maybe if it had been bored to a displacement of 800-900 or if it had flatsides then sure jetting would be a more time consuming and precise ordeal, but not to worry about the 700, not that much difference than stock.....Plus I'll either be racing in/around Albuquerque next year (3 tracks w/ pretty similar elev) or along the front range if I move for jobs (in which case I'll lean it out some...but I'm not really going to be going from Second Creek to sears point to laguna seca to etc....so I think I should be allright.
No the bike is probably not at the point that 4&6 could get it to, but I think that it will be a good start for me for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. If I'm fortunate enough to have as exciting a history in racing as yours, then hopefully I will eventually learn the nuances in suspension/geometry that you're advocating, but for now I think that this is a good start and I'll keep your suggestion on tuning the suspension a priority as my racing career grows. I suppose that finding a shop to help out with that should be a priority as well......
Thanks again to everone's .02cents--I think that now I'm heading in a fairly reasonable direction ;D ;D ;D
QuoteHey Super Dave, thanks, I'm a getting it...not enough attention gets put into the suspension by newbies, thus hindering their riding development.
Aren't Penske's a quality shock? I would think so given their price (not that that is always an indicator but usually...)
And the springs: I'll take the time to get them dialed in right to my weight and then try to talk to some "experts" about the feeling that I should be getting from them and keep tuning, and keep tuning.....I believe that this is your biggest point about racing, keeping the bike stable and smooth around the track.
You're getting closer, but not there yet.
Penske, yeah, good. I use Hyperpro stuff. That's another story.
But if you "put on a shock", it doesn't make it just work. If the shock is not the right length, then how the bike dynamically works, it makes something called anti-squat, won't work correctly.
The length of the rear shock affects the front. Yeah, the steering head angle, but more importantly, trail. You might not know what that is.
Most "experts" don't know. Lots of faster guys don't know.
Lots of people don't know why things are they way they are.
Anyway...stable has nothing to do with it. I can make anything stable. What I want is a feeling of feed back. I don't want the bike to feel vague as though I'm riding a very expensive unicycle with no real feel of what the front tire is doing. I don't want the front to feel like it's "quick"...a feeling that thing will happen too quick for me to react. There are issues that I understand that relate to all of this in the chassis.
Most people never figure these ideas out. I work with people to try to get that feeling of understanding and try to set up a process in their mind for relating what they feel to what the bike is telling them...it's relevant. When I started racing...a long time ago now...my bike had a really vague feel to the front. I though that was how it was supposed to feel. I'm not a magician, so I fell down a few times. Eventually, I went faster, but it wasn't easy. As I started to understand everything, I could manipulate things on the bike, and on other bikes to make it work for me...to give me the feeling of feed back from the bike that allows me to go into a corner faster, more confident, and even with a greater margin of safety than some other people...and while not really requiring a huge amount of effort or terror on my part.
If you're trying to figure out jets...you can't think about a corner, how the front feels, and why you're getting passed.
Most people in club racing don't know much about this stuff. It's very dynamic.
I'm sure there might be a good GMD Computrack place out your way. Or I'd hook up with someone like Dan Turner in the MRA. You heard of him?
No, I'm pretty new to the racing circuit, but I'll look up Dan Turner and try to find a computrack....but what you're telling me doesn't necessarily pertain to the SV that I'm looking at, it pertains to ANY bike that I would be considering, right? Allright, you've sold me on the GMD necessity, but what about the SV I'm looking at? Good starting material, or should I just get a much older and cheaper bike like a F3/FZR600 and do the computrack? I wouldn't mind paying up for the SV and being able to be somewhat competitive on it.....
The computrack will improve any bike. The SV you're looking at will be a competitive mount. A Fizzer6 or an F3 will be a stone in competition. Buy the SV, get it computracked/sprung/valved by an outfit that can give you trackside support, buy tire warmers and keep fresh rubber on the bike, and go racing.
There's your answer.
QuoteA Fizzer6 or an F3 will be a stone in competition.
Uh, yeah, yeah... that's the problem. It's not
me it's the F2 that I'm riding ::) ;)
H.
K3...we got clearance Clarence...roger roger wilco
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv237%2Fnbot1%2FLoL.gif&hash=721932efe7ded28f7c7f2a7da4da783750978268)
Now you're getting it, Nbot.
Yeah, it works for all of 'em.
The SV has a few advantages. One, it's almost a spec bike for many classes; it's the best bike out there and no manufacturer makes anything really to compete against it. So, if you have one, you're good. No need to make other choices.
Second, if you need a part or have a problem, someone probably has the part or may have a cure for your problem.
Older bikes...well, if we're talking 600's, there isn't going to be the parts availability in the paddock, unless it's only a couple few years old...and 600's eat tires again.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv237%2Fnbot1%2F_lightbulb_.gif&hash=e5885bcb31742bef0f6c64c54a2370a4a757e8d0)
10-4...10-4....Thanks again everybody who helped me think through this, I feel now that I'm making a solid decision by buying the SV and planning to get to a computrack sooner than later. Unfortunately, according to http://www.gmdcomputrack.com/ no GMD is close by, so I'll have to inquire about a similar shop, or keep my ears open for such service, or look up Dan Turner, or........
Anyways, thanks again to everyone who spent time helping me out, I appreciate it.... now I'm off to (https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv237%2Fnbot1%2FSelling_the_soul_to_the_devil.gif&hash=1f8f4e69ca2c8cf86127f9e2eee361bbd9f325e2)!!!
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv237%2Fnbot1%2FLoL.gif&hash=721932efe7ded28f7c7f2a7da4da783750978268)