Since the bulk of the Midwest region riders come from Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota and Iowa, why not focus on Midwest tracks, instead of going to Topeka and Omaha?? Those seem like Great Plains locations to me.
Now with this new Chicago Autobahn track, we could run there, BFR, RA, and Gingerman, and maybe add Brainerd, and there would be enough variety to make it fun, and keep it down to under-five-hour trips for many of the people in the region. (da Yueppers notwithstanding...).
Thoughts?
I like that idea Tom! I'm all for it
I like the idea also Tom. We need to send out some e-mails to Kevin E. and hopefully we can get something going. Topeka absolutley sucked! If we could just omit that track altogether and I would be a happy racer. Write up a proposal and e-mail me a copy and I will send a similar one to CCS myself. Bernie...!
Nice idea. Only hitch is, I'm pretty sure that Autobahn will be off limits to racing orgs due to local restrictions. Thats what I heard.
But lets go back to having the mw first race at BHF. I like to get the cobwebs out BEFORE RA. Like many people I dont have any inkling to drive 14 hours one way to Topeka for a 1 day race weekend. Cant imagine how long that is for Stumpy. MAM is about my limit for distance. Go back to 6 weekends at BHF a year. Since I've been with CCS I can only remember 1 year we had to deal with snow on the first weekend and it wasnt that much of a hassle.
Autobahn is probably not going to happen for CCS, either because of what Rob said with regulations, or because the venue cost might be more than CCS is willing to pay. The thread said that WERA might hold a race at Autobahn, so maybe racing will actually be allowed there. I heard Autobahn would be for clubs, members and track days only, but who knows for sure?
Also, no camping? Rats. I only live 30 minutes away, but I'd still camp there if it was allowed. Saturday night camping with your buddies is some of the best fun you can have at a race weekend.
QuoteAlso, no camping? Rats. I only live 30 minutes away, but I'd still camp there if it was allowed. Saturday night camping with your buddies is some of the best fun you can have at a race weekend.
But we all could set up a campsite in your yard.:D:D:D
Midwest tracks? How about:
Gateway 2
Blackhawk 4
Road America 2
Gingerman 4
Grattan 2
That's a 14 round season, centered in a circle around lake Michigan. These are the tracks most Midwesterners can get to with any ease, and they're all good tracks.
Obviously, some of these rounds would be combined with Great Lakes or Great Plains.
GL could include Gingerman and Grattan, along with Nelson and Beaver Run This would take care of the Lower Michigan, Ohio, indiana and Pennysilvannia guys.
GP could include Brainerd, MAM, Topeka, and Hallett, with maybe a Gateway and a Blackhawk thrown in.
Another possibility is that CCS could adopt a points formula like SCCA used when my dad ran there:
Count your ten best finishes in each class to determine the points champions per region. Two races from outside the region could be counted among the ten finishes. This allows bad luck to be tossed out four times, thus meaning that the best riders would have a better chance of winning the championships. CCS racing customers would still race all the rounds unless they scored ten wins in the first ten rounds, and the two results from outside the region option would let travel buffs and riders on the edge of a region do what they need to do.
Don't worry about us! We're not afraid of a little road trip! Good thing, too.
Road America is closest at 4 hours.
Blackhawk is second at about 6 hours.
Then it gets ugly and really frightening for those of you with mileage limits!
Topeka at 16 hours will be worth the trip if repaved.
MAM is worth the trip at 14 hours for the 4th of July holiday.
Gateway...never again. Bleck. :P
We'll probably try Grattan someday. I think that's about 5-6 hours. Brainerd is on our list for next year with CRA--also close at 6 hours.
The motorhome makes traveling 110% easier--except when Stumpy decides he's a trucker and gets called "trailer bearings" on the CB.
Really the only change I'd like is if CCS could get in at Brainerd. I'd love another Road America, but it doesn't sound like a good financial decision for CCS.
Everyone has their preferences, I guess.
Heather
PS - Tom, for future reference, it's "Yoopers". ;)
Hey All,
WERA has 2 dates at the new Autobahn track for sure (per Sean Clarke and Road Racing World).
I'm from Michigan, and there's *alot* of us here. :) A true "Great Lakes" region to us guys would be Grattan, Gingerman, BeaveRun (PA) Nelson Ledges, and Putnam (plus the new IL track).
Everyone's from a different area, but I think Gingerman and Grattan are two key tracks; especially for people who used to be part of GLRRA (Great Lakes Road Racing Assoc). If one organization were to get both, I think that'd be pretty big in terms of drawing riders.
The bridge with WERA and Putnam did get burned, but adding the new track in IL is very cool and I think a lot of people are excited about it. A 5-6 hour drive is worth it to me.
[clink, clink]
Well i know alot of people that are going to be racing WERA just for the Autobaun race. Beaverun is also another great track. You can keep Road America the pavemnet sucks and in the begining of the year the average temp during the race weekend ends up being under 45 degrees. No thank you. I would still run the Gingerman and Blackhawk rounds though.
QuoteI'm from Michigan .... :) A true "Great Lakes" region to us guys would be Grattan, Gingerman, BeaveRun (PA) Nelson Ledges, and Putnam (plus the new IL track).
Everyone's from a different area, but I think Gingerman and Grattan are two key tracks; especially for people who used to be part of GLRRA (Great Lakes Road Racing Assoc). If one organization were to get both, I think that'd be pretty big in terms of drawing riders.
Yeah! What he said.
H-man
Good idea Tom...
Pretty good schedule Chris...
Heather, I think we're going to try and make it out to MAM for the fouth of July weekend next year too. We had a blast, even with the flying 55 gallon drums. (Gotta save money.... gotta save money.... gotta save money....)
:)
Um, MAM is in Iowa. I leave on the east side of Iowa and it is the same distance as RA, and closer that Grattan, Brainerd, Gateway, etc.
Yeah, Topeka is pretty far and I don't really like the track anyway. But, I think that tracks in Iowa and Kansas are more 'midwest' than Michigan.
I know that most of the MW riders are on the east side of the region, but you guys are complaining about going to 1 or 2 tracks that are 'too far west.' What about the racers on the west side of the region that have to travel the same distance to get to the rest of the tracks? Suck it up ladies and Gentleman. (Stumpy not withstanding) ;)
On a positive note, the proposed schedule does sound pretty good other than that. :-/
Get over it you sissy's...I say we race everywhere. Just kidding. I'm going crazy working on next season already. Hopefully a schedule will be available soon...
QuoteI know that most of the MW riders are on the east side of the region, but you guys are complaining about going to 1 or 2 tracks that are 'too far west.' What about the racers on the west side of the region that have to travel the same distance to get to the rest of the tracks? Suck it up ladies and Gentleman. (Stumpy not withstanding) ;)
On a positive note, the proposed schedule does sound pretty good other than that. :-/
Nope
Sorry
I'm going to whine anyways....
Although Paul and I are a bit closer (2 hours) than Heather and Greg to the tracks.
;)
Sorry, RA costs too much.
Eliminate one BFR, and you'll never get it back unless you schedule in early April again.
Being from Omaha, when I started, Blackhawk was the closest track at the that time (before there was a Heartland Park Topeka) at 442 miles.
Topeka is reasonbly close to other racers in other states. Hallett has a lot of racers. Some of those guys go to Topeka. Some of the CRA people go to MAM.
If you want fewer races, go to fewer races. What's the point otherwise?
Blackhawk Farms has it's own championship even. What more do you want?
I would like to see Topeka eliminated altogether and maybe add another BFR, Gateway, or Gratten. I am not oppposed to Barber either. My .02 Bernie
To reiterate, the thought was to focus on what would make sense for MIDWEST region racers - not GL or GP. Can't argue about Grattan, Putnam, and Gin for GL riders, or Topeka and MAM for GP riders. BUT - we're talking MW here.
It seems like the bulk of riders who consider themselves MW region are mainly from the Southeastern Wisconsin/Chicago area. And then there are the diehards from U.P. Michigan/Northern Wisconsin/Minn. who also seem to follow the MW schedule rather than the GL or GP schedules.
But after that, if you live in Western Iowa, then race the GP schedule, and don't worry about the MW one. All I'm sayin, is if you are in the Chicago/SE Wisconsin area, those GP tracks are a hike. And that doesn't make much sense to me when there are plenty of choices in our own backyard.
As someone else pointed out, Autobahn already seems to be an option, given WERAs schedule. So maybe we need someone at CCS to get with it and get us in there.
Re RA, the chicane has taken some of the fun out of that track, so I don't miss not being there twice a season, even tho it's only about 50 mins from me. We could more than make up for that with some additional BFR races and a couple Autobahns thrown in. And then maybe a Milwaukee Mile event (altho maybe not, if there's too much concrete involved).
Look at LRRS - their whole series is run on one track. We've got it so good here- why are we killing ourselves travelling all over he11's half acre when we have so many options closer in?
Tom, I understand your point. It makes sense. I still don't agree, but understand your point. However... I would agree if the regions did not overlap so much.
I think this would work pretty well if CCS made a concious effort to segregate the regions. Unfortunately, the MW region is the largest and they want to draw on that pool of racers to maximize income. So, they combine regions at all of these race tracks to get everybody there.
I think this is where CCS does not make sense. They combine so many of the races, they might as well not even have 2 or three regions. It could all be MW very easily. I think CCS has figured out that the current setup is the most economical approach. What do you do? :-/
Another thing to consider is this: The reason that I race CCS is for the variety of tracks. I really think this is where CCS shines above some of the other organizations.
Another thought: If you live in a state that touches the Great Lakes, that is the GL region. :P
It's all about money folks. CCS doesn't draw enough riders to Topeka or MAM without the MW region.
I agree the regions should be more segregated but it won't happen until there are enough riders from these other regions for CCS to make money.
QuoteAnother thought: If you live in a state that touches the Great Lakes, that is the GL region. :P
According to the Cambridge Dictionary the Midwest is defined as:
*an area in the US which includes Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas
The states that contact the Great Lakes are as follows:
*New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.
QuoteIt's all about money folks. CCS doesn't draw enough riders to Topeka or MAM without the MW region.
I agree the regions should be more segregated but it won't happen until there are enough riders from these other regions for CCS to make money.
That's too bad because it works kinda the opposite for me. Being that most of the MW schedule is far for me, I'll rather not race at all. With WERA's NC region, most of the tracks are within reason, so I end up making the effort to go to a one-off VIR event and the trip to Georgia at the end of the year which is more money for them. I guess it can be looked at more than one way.
QuoteAccording to the Cambridge Dictionary the Midwest is defined as:
*an area in the US which includes Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas
Yes, but go to St Louis.
The arch is "the gateway to the West".
I think Kansas, the Dakota's, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Wyoming and maybe part of Colorado, and then Texas might be part of the Great Plains.
As mentioned, you'll never see 2 RA weekends. Too expensive.
Bring Gateway back?!? no thanks... I was glad to see it go.
2+ gingerman would be GREAT. one grattan, okay (but the place could really use some new pavement).
From what I hear from everyone, I'd be up for a run to Putnam...
please don't take mam away. topeka can go and never return, but if you take mam out of the midwest than blackhawk is the closest track to home for me and its 5 hrs minimum.
QuoteI think this is where CCS does not make sense. They combine so many of the races, they might as well not even have 2 or three regions. It could all be MW very easily. I think CCS has figured out that the current setup is the most economical approach. What do you do?
You nailed it - that's the issue.
So if CCS has even a shred of customer focus, they'd recognize the fact that some racers simply can't make the long roadtrips, but would still like to compete for points on some kind of a full schedule.
So why not create a new "Chicago" region, that includes only tracks within, say, 4 hours of Chicago - BFR, RA, Gingerman, Autobahn, maybe Gateway, maybe Putnam. That's a great variety of tracks, and would make for a competitive schedule.
Then build a region around the Chicago one, that includes not only all the Chicago region races, but perhaps a few more at Topeka and MAM. Call that region the Midwest or Great Plains region. Build a second one around the Chicago region, called "Great Lakes", and include Grattan and maybe Nelson Ledges.
The current system is ridiculous, IMHO - I'm in third place in Great Plains LWSS, and I wasn't even paying attention to their schedule this season; but I'm in fourth place in the Midwest region, which is my home region. Go figure.
C'mon CCS.
QuoteSo why not create a new "Chicago" region, that includes only tracks within, say, 4 hours of Chicago - BFR, RA, Gingerman, Autobahn, maybe Gateway, maybe Putnam. That's a great variety of tracks, and would make for a competitive schedule.
Then build a region around the Chicago one, that includes not only all the Chicago region races, but perhaps a few more at Topeka and MAM. Call that region the Midwest or Great Plains region. Build a second one around the Chicago region, called "Great Lakes", and include Grattan and maybe Nelson Ledges.
Just to offer another side of this Tom, the real key to this is location. If a 4 hour radius from Chicago was used that would mean there would be people that would be up to 8 hours away from a track located to the opposite extreme of a Chicago region.
I can make it to Heartland Park in about 8 1/2 hours, Brainerd in 7, MAM in 6, Grattan in 5 1/4, Putnam in 5, Gateway in 4 1/2, Gingerman in 3 3/4, Road America in 2 1/2, Autobahn in 1 3/4, and Blachawk Farms is in the same County I live in. For me I couldn't ask for too much more since I can make it to all but 1 track before Midnight if I leave right after I get out of work on Friday (without leaving early). I could even leave in the morning and get to 3 of the tracks easily before the start of practice.
Ultimately there will always be those that are located toward boundaries of a region that have to travel to most all races, and then those who are more centrally located that have to travel to boundary tracks a few times during the season. I think it would be dificult/impossible to make it convenient for all racers involved in a single region to be able to make it to all tracks within a certain amount of time. :-/
How's Topeka ever going to get repaved if everybody keeps saying how much it sucks and that it's too far away? ;D Support as many tracks as you can or they'll go away for ever. If you can't afford to go to all the races, don't. ;) And have I mentioned lately "I LOVE GATEWAY!" :P
QuoteAs mentioned, you'll never see 2 RA weekends. Too expensive.
Actually, we saw it a lot.
Used to have two CCS events at Road America...and the AMA national.
QuoteThen build a region around the Chicago one, that includes not only all the Chicago region races, but perhaps a few more at Topeka and MAM. Call that region the Midwest or Great Plains region. Build a second one around the Chicago region, called "Great Lakes", and include Grattan and maybe Nelson Ledges.
Well, right...
So, you want all the other people to travel to the Chicago region races, but you don't want to do the outside Chicago region races.
Heartland Park Topeka was opened in 1989.
MAM, well, it's really new. 2002 right?
BFR....1967.
The Chicago market is a developed area of motorcycle road racing. You've got used race bikes, leathers, all kinds of cr@p floating around.
MAM, HPT...basically emerging markets.
You can't get enough local racers from Omaha, DesMoines, KC, Topeka, St Joe, Lincoln, etc. to pay for those places. Loose them...well, you may never get in. You'll never develop it.
The flip side is that there are people that HATE going to the same place all the time. But whiners are the loudest.
Yeah, some people don't like driving...but that's why some people do this...they can go to a different track.
A friend of mine that races with AHRMA did so because AHRMA used to go to all the "cool" tracks. He lives in Minneapolis, and so his travels were already far away from most places...but he could go to Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta, Barber, Sears Point....
Some say, "Come on CCS..."
CCS has been putting on races since 1984...there's a couple of ideas on how to do it.
Don't want to travel...isn't there still at Blackhawk World Championship still? Seems like a Chicago region to me.
QuoteHow's Topeka ever going to get repaved if everybody keeps saying how much it sucks and that it's too far away? ;D Support as many tracks as you can or they'll go away for ever. If you can't afford to go to all the races, don't. ;) And have I mentioned lately "I LOVE GATEWAY!" :P
HPT actually had three AMA events... 1989, 1990, and 1991
Gateway had one...1995
Regardless of whether one likes those places, Putnam, Gingerman, and Grattan have not had AMA Pro races.
Poor pavement? Look, I've actually raced on real stree courses. Have fun!
QuoteHow's Topeka ever going to get repaved if everybody keeps saying how much it sucks and that it's too far away? ;D
Any bets CCS isnt Topeka's bread and butter?:D SCCA plays there alot more than CCS does. ;D
don't forget Putnam.
QuoteAny bets CCS isnt Topeka's bread and butter?:D SCCA plays there alot more than CCS does. ;D
Probably not. But I'll bet the Irwins see it differently. They bought it recently (like two years ago, maybe?), and they also happen to own BFR.
Do you think maybe they use all those BFR events as a negotiating point, to get CCS to buy some time at Topeka? Naaahhhh - never ;)
CCS and motorcycle events are good business for BFR.
That was a good reason to buy HPT. It was another source of untapped revenue by the people that put on events at HPT before.
Obviously, SCCA will play a big part. Ray Irwin races in GT1.
The Mid-Ohio SCCA run off contract expired just recently. They were ran once at HPT about ten years ago or so...
That's a great opportunity.
A race track is a business just like anything else.
MAM...they are idiots.
HPT...well, they are racers who own another succcessfull race track. Seems logical to work with them.
Ray sat down with me and we talked about what I though about the track and some changes. How many people can do that for you? The purchase price was probably in the millions of dollars. He made changes the first winter that he owned the track. Now more.
Who else has done that?
QuoteAny bets CCS isnt Topeka's bread and butter?:D SCCA plays there alot more than CCS does. ;D
And it certainly doesn't hurt from the SCCA aspect that the SCCA national office is within a mile or two of the track.
Topeka is a unique situation with 3 race venues at the same site - Road course, drag strip and dirt track. I'm sure that it was a big blow to Ray's business plan when he wasn't able to contract with a promoter this past spring to run a weekly dirt track series for cars. But the necessary improvements are beginning to happen - not as quickly as most of us would like - but still going in the right direction!
QuoteProbably not. But I'll bet the Irwins see it differently. They bought it recently (like two years ago, maybe?), and they also happen to own BFR.
Do you think maybe they use all those BFR events as a negotiating point, to get CCS to buy some time at Topeka? Naaahhhh - never ;)
I'll take your bet. It's not as cut and dry as you might think. HP and BHF are owned by two distinct owners/ownerships. Using BHF as leverage to secure dates at HP simply will not happen.
QuoteCCS and motorcycle events are good business for BFR.
That was a good reason to buy HPT. It was another source of untapped revenue by the people that put on events at HPT before.
A race track is a business just like anything else.
MAM...they are idiots.
HPT...well, they are racers who own another succcessfull race track. Seems logical to work with them.
The purchase price was probably in the millions of dollars. He made changes the first winter that he owned the track. Now more.
Who else has done that?
WORD
http://www.hpt.com/news_press_rel_101304-2.htm
QuoteWORD
http://www.hpt.com/news_press_rel_101304-2.htm
Thats great news!
QuoteI'll take your bet. It's not as cut and dry as you might think. HP and BHF are owned by two distinct owners/ownerships.
And recognize what you linked...
Quotesaid Raymond Irwin, Heartland Park Topeka owner.
Ray and his brother own BFR.
QuoteAnd recognize what you linked...
Ray and his brother own BFR.
Content of link fully recognized and understood.
Yes, Ray and Nancy own a HPT and Ray and his brother own BHF. Yes, there is a thread of common ownwership between the two facilities. With this being said, the facilities are still owned in whole by two distinct seperate groups.
Not inclined to go any further with this but not everyone associated with BHF is enthused about HPT.
QuoteWORD
http://www.hpt.com/news_press_rel_101304-2.htm
Dude THAT is awesome! ;D
I had fun at that track when we were there earlier this year... and every one of us in my group commented that the track will seriously kick butt with some fresh pavement. Even if I have to wait until 2006... GAME ON, I'll be there.
Raymond Irwin has never used Blackhawk as leverage on us for dates at Heartland Park.
With that said, both Raymond Irwin and Clear Channel recognize the long standing relationship and the growth that CCS has brought to Blackhawk Farms over the last decade. This success can be duplicated at Heartland Park as long as both parties remain dedicated to the common goal, and remain realistic in their expectations. The improvments already made at HPT are proof the Raymond is serious about motorcycles running at that facility and CCS will contiune to support his efforts as much as possible.
CCS has one race date at Heartland Park for 2005, and plans to return to Heartland Park with the Formula USA series after the repaving is done.
Sa-Weet!
And Kevin Clark will buy beers for you there at Baby Dolls.
I'll have the steak.