I know a bunch of guys who race formula 40 and I wanna see them all next year bieng able to race it as an unlimited supersport class. Most of them have a ton more experience than the rest of us, so its not like they cant handle it. Im just sick of seeing all Gixxer 750s on the grid.
Also Why not break it up into 2 races? cause a few I know also have a lightweight bike too, they should be able to go for 2 championships
There is a LW F40 race already.
What do you want to do?
If you allow the 1000's, which only make up a small population of bikes that are raced...oh, and they are ridiculously fast now also...you're not going to get the guys that run F40 on 600's.
How about we add even more classes so that we can have a MW F40...
Theres very very few experts that line up in Formula 40 on 600s out this way..some 1000 twins, and mostly gsxr 750s.
I know theres a lightweight formula 40, but i was refering to maing it a separate race..the heavyweight and lightweight race at the same time
I sold a damn fast lightweight bike beacuse I needed a 750 to be competitive in F40. The next year CCS introduced lightweight F40.... >:(
A friend of mine had two FZR bikes this year. One was a 560 superbike, and the other a supersport/ultralightweight 400. At several events, classes were combined so that he ended up paying two entries to compete in one race so he could get points in both classes. Naturally, this meant that he started from the second wave on the slower of his two bikes. He wasn't real pleased about that, but it was what CCS chose to do.
CCS needs to cut the number of races in a weekend!!!Then make the shortest race 10 laps. enything less is a waiste of time and we can do it in our back yard for free......Ha.. ;D
Out west most of the F-40 grid in the experts is made up of 600s, and those of us that run the class also race and are competitive in the middle, heavy and unlimited classes on that same 600.
well i ride a gsxr 750 but i understand that alot of people i have spoken with including myself(i find myself talking to myself more and more lately,must be getting old)feel it should be unlimited ss rules.i personally know of a couple of guys that either own or work at dealerships that don't sell Suzuki's so they race what they sell and are forced to compete on a 600 against 750's.
I think the original theory for F40 was..uh..FUN. A place where an older guy could be compettitive with his piers. It would seem F40 is becoming a class of older veteran 1 number aces, than guys running for the sport of it.
Don't you guys make me start a campaign to drop F40 for F50 to weed out the rockets from the regular classes. ;D
I'm with you. 51 today as a matter of fact. ;D
happy birthday don,
thats another guinness i have to drink........
thought it was 61 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
QuoteI think the original theory for F40 was..uh..FUN. A place where an older guy could be compettitive with his piers. It would seem F40 is becoming a class of older veteran 1 number aces, than guys running for the sport of it.
Don't you guys make me start a campaign to drop F40 for F50 to weed out the rockets from the regular classes. ;D
Funny how last winter I was inquiring about F40. Having never seen it, I was concerned whether it was a class mostly of folks getting into racing later in life. Or whether it was more like the Senior PGA. That is, older guys but highly skilled and past money earners.
I'm deathly slow out there (for now anyway).
If they continue to run the F40 at the same time as the F40LW and they allow F40 to be unlimited displacement, then I think it'll only be a matter of time before there's a sickening accident due to the speed differential.
Fun is the main thing for me. Let's keep it as it is.
H-man
QuoteI'm with you. 51 today as a matter of fact. ;D
Hey, Don - HAPPY B-DAY!! ( I just had mine a couple days ago, too.) Scorp/Halloween b-days rock.
Thanks Anthony. Closest I can come to that is the Bass Ale in front of me. I promise to switch to Guinness at the next beer run. As I recall the Guinness always comes out on top in a Black and Tan anyway!
Hey Tom. Another fellow moody Scorpio but the ladies love us don't they! ;)
BTW, H. The fun in LW40 is seeing how many larger displacement F40's you can pick off from the first wave in a sprint race.
QuoteBTW, H. The fun in LW40 is seeing how many larger displacement F40's you can pick off from the first wave in a sprint race.
I'm a-ways from that level of fun :( :-[
But it'll be something to shoot for, eh? ;) :D
QuoteHey Tom. Another fellow moody Scorpio but the ladies love us don't they! ;)
The wife and I are in the Scorpio clan...
Few more days and a few more years closer to F40...
How many F40 classes do we need?
Yeah, it's gonna be more like the Senior PGA. The demographic for club racing continues to get older. Isn't it still gonna be racing regardless? If the pace needs to be "slower", then aren't track days a better answer?
Guys think that vintage racing is slower...but it isn't.
I must not be expressing myself very well. SD, I did not suggest, nor am I advocating a slowing of the pace. What I am noting is, regardless of skill, a big speed differential can lead to unfortunate incidents.
F40LW has 250s, SVs, Buells ::) and F2s. Do you truly believe placing an unlimited class on the track at the same time under race conditions to be prudent?
As for track days being a better answer. Well, I suppose it depends on the question. Track days aren't supposed to be competitive. I was looking to try my hand at a different sport and live a dream.
Maybe what I should be taking from your comments is that "racing" is only for those who not only can ride a consistent line safely but must do so at a particular pace.
Just post those suggested times and us slow guys will stay down in the minors until we can improve (dispite past posts that have encouranged myself and others with "just do it" and "you get faster by racing with faster riders") and, if we still have the desire, return to race another time.
Screw it. Maybe I'm just cranky. I'm going to bed.
Happy birthday Dylanfan! With a handle like that I knew you had to somewhere close to my age. And why are'nt you riding a Harley product you ol'fart. Don't you realize at a certain point you can say, Yeah I'm slow and I'm in your way, Tuff, I got the holeshot and I'm wide.
H-man...
LOL, why are we up....
I think the ULF40 thing is kind of ridiculous, really.
How many fragments do we need?
ULSS as it is doesn't have many entrants on 1000's....so, why make even more classes.
I'm with you that putting all those together wouldn't be a good idea.
Track day reference...
(I'm tired...so, don't take me at complete value)
Racing still is racing. We've got amateur and expert and various categories to seperate. That's good.
But often it seems that some want to make five hundred categories to seperate every conclusion so all can win a race or a championship at some point. Every year I hear it. I can only imagine what Kevin Elliott has to listen to...
I think LWF40 was good. I like regular F40. Beyond that...well, if those people really want to race in those classes, buy a bike that is appropriate for the class.
The only reason I brought up this post was because a heavyweight formula 40 is more like a GSXR 750 formula 40
Quote from: dylanfan53
BTW, H. The fun in LW40 is seeing how many larger displacement F40's you can pick off from the first wave in a sprint race. /quote]
My fun is seeing how many of the LW40 I can stay ahead of on my 600 since I rarely chase down any of the 750's. :)
ALL RIGHT! 8) Nothing like some sleep or meditation to make one right ;) I don't know why I (still to this day) fight going to bed ??? :-/
Thanks for your last post SD.
H-man
QuoteMaybe what I should be taking from your comments is that "racing" is only for those who not only can ride a consistent line safely but must do so at a particular pace.
Just post those suggested times and us slow guys will stay down in the minors until we can improve (dispite past posts that have encouranged myself and others with "just do it" and "you get faster by racing with faster riders") and, if we still have the desire, return to race another time.
H? Don't make me drive to Michigan and b!@$#slap your sorry @$$. You come racing or I'll drag you there! If I can get out there on my old SRAD with no real hope of winning in the damn expert class, you've got nothing to snivel about as an amateur!
Although there are some really serious guys at the head of the F40 packs, this class has some outstanding camaradre to it. Just making it to the grid is as good as a win when you get as old as we are! ;D
I don't know, here in the mid-atlantic (novice anyway), Frank Gilles won using a 3 year old CBR 600 with some hard miles on it, and he and I were often dicing it near the front on my 3 yr old Kawasaki 600. At most tracks, I didn't see that the GSXR750 guys had a big advantage.
I do have to admit, moving up to expert I'm looking much harder at a new 750, but my hunch is a new 600 or 636 would be nearly as good. Maybe in 06.
I think the class is pretty good as is. The fast guys are really fast (Lombardi, Ribardi) and can race with the best club racers in the country. That's something to aspire to and the 20 hp b/t a 750 and 600 doesn't change that much.
I like you Chris. You're a funny guy. [I'll leave off Arnold's next line 'cause I do like ya ;D]
Super D and I have done the Chris/Don thing. Matter of fact, make mine a Guiness or any dark ale Dave. Pete's Wicked Ale would be just great. ;) ;D
You got me wrong Chris. Unlike Sunny [relax Sunny8) I'm not snapping on ya. We both know you're a better rider than me] it's me that needs to be better, not the bike. My '94 F2 is capable of a hell of a lot more than I've wrung out of it.
But thanks for the support - in typical K3 fashion ;) ;D
H-man
All I have to say, being an F40 mofo, is please tell me now so I know what bike to buy/build over the winter.
I have noticed that F40 is smooth and predictable, a refreshing change from the suicide 600 class.
i think most of you are missing scott's point...to be competive in the f40 you must be on a suzuki gsxr 750...the results don't lie.Since the class was formulated,suzuki 750 has won every nat'l...if they go to unl ss rules combine it with the regular unl ss class,the grids will be bigger and if someone wants to be scored in both,charge them double entry fees.one less race to run.as far as the f40 being a gentelmans class,if you feel that way please stick with track days.this is racing not crusing.there is a large group of f40 riders that can place in the top 5 at any ccs race.
Quoteas far as the f40 being a gentelmans class,if you feel that way please stick with track days.this is racing not crusing.
:-X :-X ::)
This could be interesting to watch.
Seriously though, I think there's room for a misunderstanding of the term "the gentlemen's class"
When I read that term (I haven't used it myself), I don't think the writer is intending to convey an image of a rider leaving a gap to be passed or skipping every opportunity to make a pass. I believe it's more a matter that F40 riders recognize we aren't likely to travel the nation's (or region's) tracks chasing contingency money, we aren't likely to be invited to ride for anyone. This is done purely for our own entertainment and enjoyment. Besides, we have to go to work on Monday as we're the main or sole wage earners.
Given the above, there's an realization (rationalization?) that riding on the edge or going for daring passes just to achieve the next place higher or the podium has a very low return for the associated risk.
Speed is addicting and fun. Dicing is fun. Winning is great! But given the magnitude of the return for a 40+ year old, I doubt the rest is likely to be attempted.
IMHO.
Peace bra.
I think everyone as their own reasons for running F40.I have raced F40 for 4 years now and it has become much more competitive than it was in 2001,yet no less fun.
Criminal speed build and race what you want to race not what you have to, unless you want to go for a national championship, Hooter31 is correct about that, but at most other events not held at Daytona the 600s still do pretty well.
I would like to see the displacement lowered to 600cc myself to level the playing field since Suzuki is the only choice in 750 trim.
Anyone wishing to give F40 a try just needs to come out and check it out for yourself, its definitely worth it
QuoteI think everyone as their own reasons for running F40.I have raced F40 for 4 years now and it has become much more competitive than it was in 2001,yet no less fun.
Criminal speed build and race what you want to race not what you have to, unless you want to go for a national championship, Hooter31 is correct about that, but at most other events not held at Daytona the 600s still do pretty well.
I would like to see the displacement lowered to 600cc myself to level the playing field since Suzuki is the only choice in 750 trim.
Anyone wishing to give F40 a try just needs to come out and check it out for yourself, its definitely worth it
I'll be there next year Keith! :)
I took 2nd place in the MW region/LW-F40. Let me tell you, just to get 2nd overall was a very hard battle all year. There is some very stiff competetors in both F-40 and LW/F-40 classes. The grids are getting bigger, bikes are getting faster, and the riders are top notch... all of them! I also have been running the F-40 class for 4 years now and it just gets bigger and more competitive every year. Gentlemans class? I wouldnt say that, but I will say that in the F-40 class maturity does have its place. IMHO.... Mark.
I haven't done so well trying to beat Calven Martenez in F40, so I guess I'll get an SV and go beat up Ed Key in F40 Light. Yeah, Ed should be a pushover.... ;)
just throwing stuff out to get reactions ;Di do agree unless it's for a nat'l championship ii don't think many of us would pull a kamakazi move.
AGAIN...what fun is a 750 class...cause in the South east and Midatlantic regions they guys winning races are either on 750s or built Ducs
I"ve tried to keep out of this discussion other than to poke fun at some friends, but now I feel compelled to speak up. Probably no one will like what I have to say.
If I'm reading this thread correctly, we have several different topics being discussed.
1) Should 1000cc bikes be allowed in F40?
2) Should F40 be limited to 600cc bikes?
3) Is F40 a duffer's class, or a senior pro class?
My opinions:
1) 1000cc bikes are cool for the guys who can afford them, but not in F40. CCS is running F40 in combination with F40 light, and both classes are EX/AM. Surely, if 1000cc bikes are allowed, Experts on 1K bikes are going to be lapping Amateurs on lightweight bikes. This happens already with the 750-4 and 1000-twin bikes we have now, but it will be even worse with 1000-4 machines. The closing speeds will be horrendous. Something really bad might happen. I don't think this is a very good idea, as long as F40 and F40 light are combined into one race. Besides, then all the guys who invested in a GSXR750 or 1000 twin to be competitive in this class would be screwed. I don't even have a competitive bike for any class right now, so I'm not just whining for my own sake here.
2) Limiting F40 to 600cc bikes would give an F40 rider more options, and would be somewhat more compatable with F40 light machines in a combined race, but how many of the F40 crowd isn't racing a 600cc bike because they don't like the "meat grinder" attitude in every other 600cc class? Supertwin or Heavyweight grids aren't as full or frantic as 600 grids are, and many older racers appreciate this. Sure, some guys are good enough to win 600cc superbike, but others aren't. The slow guys would either have to get a 600 and race in groups that they currently try to avoid, or buy a lightweight bike instead. (As many of the older guys are doing already.) So, letting the few who want 1000cc bikes in F40 have their way means instantly ostracising everyone else with a 750-4 or 1000 twins.
3) My answer to #3 is "Yes." Anyone who doesn't like that answer can go play somewhere else. Wicked fast guys and slow guys should be able to coexist in F40, and should give each other some room and respect. If some codger is running 20 seconds off the pace, the National Champ should just accept that and deal with it. The codger should likewise not complain about the National champ. F40 is, after all, a class for old people. Some guys get faster with age, and some get slower. Who should be banned? No one.
I think the rules should be kept as they are. If a 40+ guy wants to buy a 1000cc bike, there are other classes he can ride it in.
That's my opinion. Flame away!
K3, If I knew how to make sounds on the computer you would be hearing applause. Very well said.
Hear, hear! :) Very well put K3.
You're quite the wordsmith. You managed to call me both a friend and a codger in the same post :-X :-[ :P ;)
H-man
QuoteHear, hear! :) Very well put K3.
You're quite the wordsmith. You managed to call me both a friend and a codger in the same post :-X :-[ :P ;)
H-man
H? You can run within 20 seconds of the winning pace now? Awesome! See? I told you you'd get better with practice! ;D
K3 i don't know if i know you and i do respect your opinion but i feel you are missing the point of the f40 rules...it is a suzuki gsxr 750 cup race and if you are not on a suzuki you probably won't be competitive.as i said in my previous post run it in with the unl ss class and do the same with the lght f40 class combine it with one of the classes that have a small grid.you will get rid of one of the raceas and still have both classes.as far as the money people have spent building bikes for the class...welcome to racing,every year the factorys build better bikes and in most classes if your bike is more than a year old it is obsolete
I would have to agree with Chris on all points except that the 6oo expert classes are not so bad, am yes.I found that running the regular 600 classes only makes me faster.
Sure wish they had decided to have a ltwt class before I sold the 125.
R1owner, I am waiting!!!
Hey Hooter!
I don't believe we've met, but I've seen your back once or twice. I don't think you've seen mine, because I'm not fast enough to dice with you or slow enough for you to lap. I think I've raced with you at Daytona and Barber.
Believe me, I know all about class changes being a part of racing. I've bought or built 2 bikes for classes that disappeared the moment I took ownership, and have bought a few that were the hot ticket for about 10 minutes. I even sold one that was made much more competitive by a rule change about 10 minutes after I let it go for peanuts. Best of all, I was finishing as the first amateur in lightweight sportsman the year they decided to score EX/AM as one race. Since that was the only class My EX500 was good for, I sold it and got something faster because I couldn't beat the experts. When the Daytona mailer came out, CCS had decided to retally the points, declare regional AM champs, and have an AM ROC race! %$#@!!!! &%@#!!!!!! @#^%$%%^#@$%^!!!!!!!! Then the guy I sold my bike to (who has NEVER beaten me in a race before or since) took my bike to Daytona and got a second place with it! %&^$#@#$%*&*^%$#@%^&*^%$#$%^^&**&^%$#@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember what I said about the guys with 750 or supertwin bikes liking the smaller, less hectic grids? Something tells me that CCS took that into consideration when F40 was originated. If 1000cc bikes are allowed, then everybody will have to get one, because a 750 or 1000cc twin will be instantly obsolete. I've seen Ducks, RC51s and even TLs win in F40 at the expert level, so a GSXR750 is not the only weapon. (The best one, but not the ONLY one.)
Forget all that. 1000cc bikes with expert riders aboard should not be lapping amateurs on 125cc bikes with fouled plugs. Bad karma there....
Combining races and paying double entry fees does not work. Had a friend forced to do that this year in ultra lightweight and lightweight supersport. To be elegible for the ultra lightweight points, he had to start in the ultralightweight grid, back in the second wave. This meant that he had no real chance in the supersport race, even though he'd paid to be in it. Not fair to him, and not financially prudent to pay twice for one 8 lap race.
CCS probably needs fewer classes. In my opinion, it doest't need 1000cc F40 bikes. But I'd probably buy one if I had to.... Except that I really want an SV now.
Quote.welcome to racing,every year the factorys build better bikes and in most classes if your bike is more than a year old it is obsolete
Obsolesence is in the eye of the beholder.
Yeah, how much faster is the new R6 vs the old one?
Ok, take one track and take one rider that rides both an R6 and an R1...
How much faster do they go on that track with, what, and extra 50HP? Let's be nice and make if thirty.
For Denning at BFR, it was less than a second.
Usually the changes in bikes are necessary for contingency...doesn't apply for F40 and Suzuki money.
Are the winners of F40 just choosing GSXR750's because they choose so...or is it really better?
Didn't Jensen do pretty ok in Formula Sportbike in FUSA on his R6 at times? Weight had to be correct, and he was underpowered.
Still always comes down to the rider and set up, doesn't it?
I still just think that F40 doesn't need to be a 1000 class.
i guess one of the reasons i want it to go to a 1 litre class is because a couple of the guys i race with are on 600's and feel the only reason i beat them is because i ride a 750...maybe if i build a sv650??? ;D ;D ;D
Just thinking out loud wouldn't a new class for the 1000/4 for all riders be better than a class for a limted number of riders? IE unlimited superbike vs unltd F40
I THINK THERE SHOULD BE ONLY 1 F40. THOSE 2 CLASSES ARE ALREADY HAVE HARDLY ANY RACERS IN THEM ANYWAY. ITS KIND OF STUPID TO HAVE LESS THAN 10 RIDERS SHOW UP ON A GRID, AND THAT HAS HAPPEND MORE THAN A FEW TIMES!!! WE ALREADY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH RACES GETTING CUT SHORT. THEY CUT OUT SPORTBIKE THIS SEASON CAUSE THEY SAID IT WAS POORLY ATTENDED, AND THEY ADDED A CLASS (LWF40) THAT EVEN HAD SMALLER GRIDS.
Stop YELLING!
Let me address a few points I've seen.
We reduced classes last season so we could "open" up the race day, it seemed we had too many races that were red flagged and delayed causing us to shorten race laps every weekend. That being done, we started out with longer races this season (adding 2 laps in most circumstances) and the riders themselves voted numerous times to shorten the races back to the 8 laps (16 miles) that we had run previously. Go figure.
Lightweight F-40 was added BECAUSE it would be run at the same time as F-40 and not add another race to the weekend. (Overall F-40/LW F-40 turnout has gone from 20 last season to 32 this season, not enough to split the classes, but enough to justify continuing this format.) It will not change for 2005.
I have been bombarded by plenty of people who wish to have 1000cc fours included in F-40, but I can not see the benefit to the class, only the detriment of losing the 600 riders who make up the majority of the entries. The proverbial double-edged sword. My recommendation to the rules committee will be F-40 to run Heavyweight SuperBike rules so we don't have to disqualify another 40 riders for running slicks in the class like we did this season. Class viability still depends on entries, and we will strive to make certain the entry numbers justify the track time used by these classes.
In the spirit of the F-40/LW F-40 "partnership", the rules committee has been forwarded a proposal to run Unlimited SuperBike with SuperTwins, adding a class for those open machines without adding a race to the weekend. (SuperTwins combined only averaged 18 bikes per grid, and with the research the CCS Staff did, we would probably match those numbers with UnlSB.)
Complete information will be in the license renewal mailer coming out in the next 3-4 weeks.
See you at the races.
Thanks for the personal Reply, Kevin.
Have a beer on Kevin Clark. ;D
Kevin - Thank you for continuing to give us info "from the source".
Are you sure it's wise to combine Unlimited-class bikes with "lightweight" bikes such as SV's and Firebolts... which make up a substantial portion of the SuperTwins entries?
Just curious - what was the average number of entries in ULSS this year?
Averaged 20 bikes between Amateur and Expert Unlimited SuperSport.
Since SuperTwins grids are not made up exclusively of the smaller bikes, it remains a viable combination. while you may have the occasional SV vs GSXR pass, it won't be 20-1000's having to battle past 20 SV's by the halfway point. This is still just a proposal that has been given to the rules committee for consideration.
Thanks for the input.
Any estimate of when will we know if F40 is going to be under SB or SS rules for next year?
In case Kevin does not get back on; most things the rules commitee decide or other rule/procedure changes are sent out with the Spring Daytona mailer I have noticed in the past.
QuoteIn case Kevin does not get back on; most things the rules commitee decide or other rule/procedure changes are sent out with the Spring Daytona mailer I have noticed in the past.
Yep, but Spring Daytona mailer doesn't help those of us who race at Homestead in February!
HOMESTEAD will be under this years rules
Talked with Kevin Sat. Rules will be out in time for Feb Homestead
Define "In Time"...
The rules come out and then the racing starts, or the rules come out and you have a month to prepare a bike for the first race. There is a difference.
I have read this thread with interest and many of you have made several good points. Just so that you know, I'm usually the oldest guy out there at 63 y/o, and also one of the slowest. I started motorcycle road racing just this past year, 2004, and did have a lot of fun. Here's my overall views on F40.
F40 and LWF40 are not classes made up of old slow guys. I get smoked just as badly in F40 as I do in HWSB and HWSS. Fast riders are fast regardless of what they ride and how old they are.
It just might be that F40 is a GSXR750 class. So what? They are cheap, available, last forever, and have great trackside support. For guys that work at bike shops that don't sell Suzukis I'd ask how many of them are over 40? I would suspect not many.
Since " spec " racing can be so sucessful as demonstrated by Nascar, SCCA's Formula Vee, etc, why change rules that do seem to work? In my experience with cars frequent rule changes are one of the surest ways to kill participation. There are too many examples to list but just consider how CART went in the tank in less than one year!.
I choose to race in CCS specifically because the tracks in the MW are close to me and it appeared that many of the racers were involved more for fun than with aspirations of going on to a big time pro career. It seems that a huge expenditure of either time or money isn't mandatory or even neccessary. I can afford to field 1st class equipment and the rest is up to me. That makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
Yes, I do know that there are several riders in CCS who have both the ability and the aspiration to develop towards " greater " things. That is a good thing as it provides both a training ground and a benchmark. But F40 sure seems like an inappropriate class for those sort of aspirations.
Further, I'm fully aware that what seems relatively inexpensive to me can be a ton of money to others, and there are folks that have many more $ than myself. Again, isn't that a good reason to keep rules stable? Doesn't rule stability help keep costs down? Yes and Yes to those questions.
To be honest, my 02 GSXR750 is so much more capable than I am, I can't see any advantage to having more horsepower. At my weight, plenty , I do need a minimum of power to keep from getting eaten alive on the straight bits. The 750 does that for me and will probably be enough bike for me for at least a couple of years.
Thanks for the opprotunity to respond
Tom David
my vote is for 1K F40
QuoteTalked with Kevin Sat. Rules will be out in time for Feb Homestead
Eric,
Thanks for following up with Kevin for me.
maybe i'm blind but i don't see how changing the rules to hwt superbike will help.i understand that approx. 40 riders were DQ'ed for running slicks in the f40 and trying to eliminate post race inspection would solve some problems.But i don't see the guys running 600's not complaining about running against 750 superbikes now.The guy on a 600 is going to have to buy a new bike anyway to compete against a 750 superbike anyway so whynot go 1 litre? ???Every brand has a bike that is able to win in the 1000 class,in the hwt class the is only one SUZUKI...as far as guys running slicks last year,how many were Ducati's???most i'm sure and how many of them were superbikes anyway... :-/just my 2cts.i will race whatever the rule commitee decides.FYI the guy who won the hwt sbk at the ROC was ED LIS,who got 2nd in the ROC f40race(great job ED)I have to go now my prune juice and rogain are waiting ;D
I vote for 1000s for one simple reason. There aren't enough classes that the 1000 can run in. My teammate runs F40 and won the Pacific and SW regions this year. He's not even able to race his own bike in those classes because he has a CBR 1000RR.
If you keep a 1000 SS legal, that leaves 3 classes you can race in. If it's a SB, that's only 2, and one of them is GTO! At some point the "old guy" class has to consider the old guys who want to race a 1000 and don't think they can handle a 25 minute race (leaving only 1 class for SBs!!).
Ok...back to getting my butt whooped in points by the resident BSR "old guy"
QuoteI vote for 1000s for one simple reason. There aren't enough classes that the 1000 can run in. My teammate runs F40 and won the Pacific and SW regions this year. He's not even able to race his own bike in those classes because he has a CBR 1000RR.
Well, that's a good reason to get a different bike.
I'll have my H1 ready to race next season. It's probably only competitive in a couple of classes, but I'm not looking to add more classes to an already packed weekend schedule or to completely change the nature of a class.
How about we open up Formula 40 to younger guys like it was when it was originally started. If you were thirty-five, you could race Formula 40 with a five year old bike. That was the formula part.
Why not just make it an unlimted class? We could get Barney to race it on that 500cc GP bike.
Aren't we just making more and more categories for riders? Why shouldn't the riders try to make things fit into an existing logical structure rather than try to put new square pegs in round holes.
Can't wait for three more years to pass. Who knows what someone will be asking for then.
QuoteWell, that's a good reason to get a different bike.
I'll have my H1 ready to race next season. It's probably only competitive in a couple of classes, but I'm not looking to add more classes to an already packed weekend schedule or to completely change the nature of a class.
How about we open up Formula 40 to younger guys like it was when it was originally started. If you were thirty-five, you could race Formula 40 with a five year old bike. That was the formula part.
Why not just make it an unlimted class? We could get Barney to race it on that 500cc GP bike.
Aren't we just making more and more categories for riders? Why shouldn't the riders try to make things fit into an existing logical structure rather than try to put new square pegs in round holes.
Can't wait for three more years to pass. Who knows what someone will be asking for then.
Ok, so what you're advocating is getting rid of the 1000cc bikes. In your perfect world, everyone would be on 2 strokes and be able to race whatever class they want. Remember, racing (especially to 40 year old guys) is a fun hobby, not a career. They don't go out and buy bikes for each class....they often want to be able to race what they have.
CCS is the only regional series I know of that doesn't allow 1000ccs in the F40 class. Ok...go off and spout about some East coast or small local series, but WERA, WSMC, AFM all allow 1000cc from what I've been told. 1000cc is pretty new to inline fours (relatively) and CCS is so far the slowest to catch up with that.
Don't think I'm standing on a soap box chanting here...it doesn't affect me either way. I just feel sorry for the guys who are not allowed to race the bikes they love.
Has racing came to the point of having minute, individual classes for everyone and every combination?
Honestly, big bikes are big bikes.
If you have a real AMA Superbike, well, you only really have one class to race it in.
If you have a real 500cc GP bike, well, you can race it in ULGP.
I don't think racing is much of a career to most 21 year olds, most 31 year olds, most 41 year olds, 51 year olds, and up.
I never advocated eliminating anything, but there is advocates for changing structures to fit their particular wants.
Generally, the exclusivity of having a 1000cc bike was recognized by the owners. The versatility of owning a 600, and in some cases a 750, was recognized by their owners. Now, the exclusive owners of 1000's want into F40. That's great.
I race AHRMA and I'd like to race my 500cc Formula 500 bike in Formula 750. But that's now allowed either.
At some point, someone has to recognize that the rules are going to be a particular way.
If you run a 410 cid methanol sprint car, you're only going to be able to race in certain races and organizations. 1000's are like that. They are, now, really fast, light bikes that are, still, pretty exclusive. There has never, ever been many places for 1000's to bump into class wise.
1000's new to inline fours?
Huh?
KZ1000, GS1000...
If we want to moderize it a bit, we recognize these bikes as "unlimited" production bikes...not 750's...
R1's, ZX9's, CBR900, 929, 954, GSXR1100...
Anyway, I think I still build bikes to fit into classes. I have a "supersport" bike. So, it doesn't have slicks. I don't try to get "supersport" changed to allow slicks. Seems like this thread is getting really whinney and ridculous.
QuoteSeems like this thread is getting really whinney and ridculous.
Yes it is Dave. Thank you for saying it out loud! ;)
amazing how many people have opinions about a class they don't even race in ??? ??? the only reason i am pushing for the class to open to open class bikes is that i would allow other makes to be competitive in the class.Dave you are missing the point...the reason most want the change is because it is a SUZUKI cup race.The AMA had the same problem with the 750 superstock class,it too became a Suzuki cup race with the exception of Hayden.Funny though,when you have an opinion it's gospel but when others have a different one it's whinning.I wonder how you would feel if people that didn't race ARHMA tried to have a say in what the class rules were?Anyway i don't want to make this personal,i never even meet you ,but i do take offense to people saying others are whinning when they are expressing their opinion.
Modify the rules in F40 to HWSB, but do not allow the 1000cc 4 cylinders in this class. There should be a new class created; Unlimited Superbike. Let's keep the playing field even in F40, as one person states, "it's all about fun". ;)
Ok, I'll STILL throw a couple more in.
Unlimited Supersport, GTO, and Unlimited Grand Prix are for open class bikes.
If it weren't for the heavyweight and middleweight bikes, these classes might not have many racers in them.
There was a time not so long ago, when some advocated getting rid of Unlimited Supersport.
However, Middleweight and Heavyweight classes florish.
Some think CCS makes a whole lot of money, but I have enough knowledge about racing organizations and renting tracks to understand the reality.
So, IF there was to be Unlimited Superbike, what are you going to run it with? You'd have to add a space for it. There isn't much you could add it to without conflict of dual entries or speed problems.
I doubt that the numbers of 900's to 1100's out there would make up enough to pay for the space. I doubt that you'd have droves of 750 and 600 riders getting into the class either. Guys have so much money, so, most are going to get into their three to six classes.
Sportbike at the regional level wasn't hugely successful probably because guys had to make decisions on which class to enter.
So, add Unlimted Superbike, and you'd see an increase in entries by the big bike guys. How many 1000/4's are there out there at each event? Ten? At $50 a crack, that's a whole $500. (ULGP $70, GTO $70, ULSS - $70 first non purse entry) Meanwhile, you've got thirty five guys on 600's dropping good money.
So, for F40, who do you alienate? The fewer guys on the big bikes or the majority on middleweight bikes? I'm hearing a squeeky wheel is about all.
I'm not in any position to make rules. You know who does that.
But if you can't even give me a good answer that is defendable to me?
You say that it's funny that I have opinions about rules in a class that I don't race in.
Well, yeah, but the only reason I don't is because I'm 37. Otherwise, I've race the class, Heavyweight Supersport. I've got some championships in the class some want to make it, Unlimited Supersport, while riding 750's and 600's.
Yes, I have been involved in AHRMA and seen people who don't race in a class propose rules. Even proposals by team owners that are not racers. It doesn't mean that the ideas aren't valid. But you've got to sell it.
How many guys race in F40? A decent amount.
And, as Kevin Elliott stated...
QuoteI can not see the benefit to the class, only the detriment of losing the 600 riders who make up the majority of the entries
...and that comes from the person that has the stats at his finger tips.
And, yeah, KE used to race.
yes but kevin is assuming the guys on 600's would no longer race,,,i feel they would buy a 1000 and keep racing....that is my opionion.most guys that race and are over 40 are more finanically secure and are doing it for the love of the sport and will buy a bike that is competetive whatever the rules are
Quoteyes but kevin is assuming the guys on 600's would no longer race,,,i feel they would buy a 1000 and keep racing....that is my opionion.most guys that race and are over 40 are more finanically secure and are doing it for the love of the sport and will buy a bike that is competetive whatever the rules are
Dude, you are crazy! I'm lucky to be able to afford to race an 01 600 4 times a year and I consider myself to be making a pretty decent wage.
No way I am going to be able afford a 1000 and I certainly am not going to sell a 600 to race against dudes on 1000's. I do that now in GTO and do OK as it is.
QuoteHas racing came to the point of having minute, individual classes for everyone and every combination?
Can I get a Formula K3? ;D
QuoteDude, you are crazy! I'm lucky to be able to afford to race an 01 600 4 times a year and I consider myself to be making a pretty decent wage.
I sold a 2000 GSXR750 at the end of this season. I couldn't keep tires on the thing. I'm looking for an SV to run in LWF40. If I couldn't afford the 750, I sure wouldn't be able to afford the 1000.
I have an '99 SV650 in totally setup race condition. My son raced it this year in CCS (most of the time took 1st). Contact me if intersted...
Old guys like me are maybe more financially secure, however, it still costs a ton to make all the races, all season. I will stick to my 600 in the F-40 class. ;)
i see your problem...you don't know the rules...if you have a 600 try racing gtu and you won't have to compete against 1000's ;Djust a sugestion ;)
The 600 I ride runs in the GTU, Unlimited GP, Unlimited Supersport, Middleweight Supersport, Middleweight Superbike, and Middleweight GP. It holds it's own in those classes with the 1000's, but the F-40 is for those of us that are lucky enough to still be around at 40! Keep those 1000cc 4 cylinders where they belong-out of the F-40... :)
Quotei see your problem...you don't know the rules...if you have a 600 try racing gtu and you won't have to compete against 1000's ;Djust a sugestion ;)
As per Dave's observation, I race the 600 in that class as well. :P
If the 1000s were allowed in I would sell the 600 and go back to light weight myself . The expert hw f40 usually represent the smaller number of riders on the grid now with lw drawing more and more, i think the 1000s will only make it smaller. Just my .02
While we're on it, what sense does it make to change F40 to SB rules? While it may be true that there are guys out there running basically SS bikes with slicks, a bunch of well guys are going to show up with real SB's, with 160hp 750 engines.
Am I naive, but aren't DOTs like 208GPAs very close in capability to slicks? Why open the class up just for "slicks" ? The cost different to create a competitive 750 (or 600) SS is much less than a SB.
QuoteCCS is the only regional series I know of that doesn't allow 1000ccs in the F40 class. Ok...go off and spout about some East coast or small local series, but WERA, WSMC, AFM all allow 1000cc from what I've been told. 1000cc is pretty new to inline fours (relatively) and CCS is so far the slowest to catch up with that.
WERA does not allow amateurs to ride 1000 fours! Max 750 fours and 1000 twins only.
Superbike rules make sense. So many of the F40 guys are cheating, because they already have superbike motors to be competitive in other classes they run, but they don't want to be excluded from F40. I've seen motors going together at my sponsor's shop, then raced against them in F40. If I recall, cams and pistons are not supersport legal mods. I knew they were "cheating" but I didn't protest, because I believe this rule change is long overdue.
QuoteCan I get a Formula K3? ;D
Talk to Phil Sberna about the new class he and I have painstakingly worked on.
One word: Formula
Might get it for 2005.
As for everyone buying 1000's...
Ah, no. Didn't and hasn't happened. Guys that graduate from pre F40 (those that aren't 40 years and up) still have 600's as a mode of racing transportation. There has never been a great number of 1000's, or 900's through 1100's, raced.
I know a few of them out there that have them for Superbike and Superstock in the AMA, and I'd be happy to get you in contact with them to buy them. Good deals... But there is no rush. The exclusivity of a 1000 and the expense is usually beyond most people's budgets.
I know that I can get a rear on my 600 to go down hill enough that after two races, starting with it new on the first one, I'm not going to race on it anymore...it's now a practice tire. A 1000 is just going to eat up more stuff. I'm out there to go fast, not to have a track day, so it WILL happen.
As for everyone buying 1000's...
If it were the case that everyone would buy one...
Unlimited Grand Prix and GTO offer money. The 1000 is eligible in both of those classes. There are no age restrictions. So, given your logic, racers would be upgrading to have a 1000 in both of those classes to make more money, but that isn't the case.
I can't see where that logic says that everyone would buy a 1000 for F40.
And I seen no reason myself to complete destroy, and I used that word very carefully, the current structure of F40 to appease a very small population of riders. We can't talk about potential riders. I've always heard it, but seldom does anything really get more riders coming out.
I do race a 600 in the F40 class and have for the past 2 years. Any rules change will not effect my ride of choice which is the 600. In the SW and Pacific regions the F40 was one of the most competitive its been in awhile this past year and all 5 of the top guys were on 600s, and all 5 also race the other middleweight classes.
Plus, don't forget that there is more to SS rules than slicks. I'd love to ride my RC51 in F40, but with Ohlins forks and Brembo brakes I can't do it. I can, however, ride Valucycle Senior Superbike with these mods and so I had to make the decision which organization to ride. And those of you worried about fast riders on 1K bikes closing on small bikes oughta' ride an endurance race. I rode on a 750cc air cooled Ducati and was passed by AOD, Vesrah, et all at horrific differences in speed. Those guys are great riders and know how to make a pass. Granted, there are some substantial differences between endurance races and club sprints. I'd hate to run against 1K inline bikes in F40 because they are far superior to anything I have. As a 59 yr old rookie, not only do I have to go to work Monday, but I have to drive home. Tom, what say we work on a F60 class, LOL?
QuoteI'd hate to run against 1K inline bikes in F40 because they are far superior to anything I have.
Keep the in-line 4 cylinders 1000cc out of the F40. If the old guy needs that much advantage to beat others in the class, maybe he should consider not racing at all!
Maybe I won't race! But if you read it closely, I don't want them either. Do you ride F40?
Roto, what's buggin you? Whatever it is, get over it and quit being hurtful. F40 isn't the class for that.
QuoteTom, what say we work on a F60 class, LOL?
Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My motto is
Formula 60
sponsored by SSI, Medicare, and AARP
Your tax dollars at work
:)
not really F40 is fine just like it is
Tom, I need to send you pics of my bike. I have AARP and Geritol stickers all over it. It gets a laugh on the line, LOL