Ok, I'm working on some ideas for a really broad thought on licensing and all.
I'd really appreciate some input. I'd like to get some thoughts, good or bad, on the whole idea.
This kind of started last year, and now I started it again.
I'd like to have a proposal for Kevin Elliott sooner rather than later.
This is a link to it on the Rules page...
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action=display;num=1091400129
Please focus on the topic at hand. If you have new rules ideas for other things...this is the time to put them together.
How about a class with NO changes allowed to bikes except body work, all same cc bikes.
I have no experience with the pro level, but have made a few observations.. THe best riders should be able to collect cash when they can. Heck, as a "hobby" rider although expert, i dont feel unless i could ride at the level of the best why i should feel like a better rider, even a pro, takes contingency money in a race i happen to be in. Very few riders actually make money after all is said and done.. if that is all they do (race). Even if a "pro" picks up 3-5k on a mfg contingency weekend, they are spending thousands getting there. Then there are the weekends they come up short or god forbid, crash. Now they are spending whatever they may have won the weekend before (perhaps cherrypicking/sandbagging) fixing a bike..
Prime example this weekend at Moroso Speedway, West palm beach. Mike Barns in a YAM money race ($1,500 to win) crashes while in 2nd right in front of myself trying to pass Marco Martinez.. Mike is an AMA pro but i enjoyed racing with him (highlight of my short carrer thus far actually-holding him off/UP for a few laps)..
As a weekend warrior, i want the money as much as anyone but until i make the commitment and somehow have talent bestowed upon me, i wont complain if a pro comes and gives it a go to take the cash. He bent his "A" bike pretty good trying to win that $1,500...Was sorry to see it actually.
Good luck to Barney this weekend!
As far as AM riders getting a few bucks? why not. The tires are so damn expensive.. it has been shown that a good percentage of riders only race 2 years or so anyway. Why not have them, if able to finish top 5, be able to get a little support if they do thier part to promote the product. I wanted more as an AM rider.. now i want more as an Expert. I wont get it both ways i suppose
1. Novice: Some recognition necessary if you do well. Trophy or frameable certificate. A win is a win, and if amateur is more limited than it is now, many racers might never get a trophy in their careers!
Also, There should be no limit to how long you stay novice. Some riders could spend YEARS there, while others are good enough to almost start racing as an expert. Don't throw anyone to the wolves before they can run with the pack! As an example, if you can't crack a 1:20 at Blackhawk on a 600 - 1000cc bike, you're just in the way and not ready to move up. People like that aren't slow on purpose, and shouldn't have to write beg letters to stay safe.
This promotion thing needs to be addressed. How about a three win rule? Promote if you think you're ready, or after three wins if you're trying to be a sandbagging trophy whore.
No contingency or prize money. That ought to get decent riders moving up as soon as possible.
2. Sportsman: A stopover for aspiring heroes, and the destination class for duffers like me. Contingency, trophies and championships, but no prize money. The hungry ones will come and go, while the hobby racers will settle in for life. A guy comes out of novice and beats guys like Edgar and me, it means something. Now he can progress to the Purks and Jessies at the top. Maybe he'll be back down a year later when he runs out of money or finds that his personal level of risk isn't expert level.
3. Expert: The place to win money, and challenge yourself against the best the club has to offer. Poaching pros welcome. Better payouts for fewer, longer races. Maybe qualifying? Even if some of the purse money has to be lifted from the entry fees of the lower classes, this top class will add legitimacy to the whole program. You know the crew who will race this class.
Also, no waffling. Experts race expert, and Sportsmen race sportsman. You don't need an expert finishing off his tires in a sportsman race, just to poach contingency dollars. You're one or the other. By the year? By the weekend? That would need to be decided. Sportsman to expert upgrade at the rider's discretion, with approval from the race director.
These are my thoughts.
K3
QuoteHow about a class with NO changes allowed to bikes except body work, all same cc bikes.
Your call. Write it up and get support.
If you have new rules ideas for other things...this is the time to put them together.
QuoteI
As far as AM riders getting a few bucks? why not. The tires are so damn expensive.. it has been shown that a good percentage of riders only race 2 years or so anyway. Why not have them, if able to finish top 5, be able to get a little support if they do thier part to promote the product. I wanted more as an AM rider.. now i want more as an Expert. I wont get it both ways i suppose
What would you ride in, Greg?
Sportsman? You trying to be an up and comer?
Might be Pro Expert for you. If you could finish in the top ten, it might pay. Otherwise, maybe Sportsman Expert is for you.
There would be contingency in Sportsman Expert. So, you'd get the tire money.
QuoteYou're one or the other. By the year? By the weekend? That would need to be decided. Sportsman to expert upgrade at the rider's discretion, with approval from the race director.
It's going to be up to the rider and the race director/referree. Really, what are you going to take with you if you go pro when you are a sportsman...nothing but you and the bike. Points wouldn't transfer. There wouldn't be any real benefit to bounce. Really, the race director would make the decision if there is some Flip-Flopping.
QuoteThis promotion thing needs to be addressed. How about a three win rule?
Don't make it so complicated.
Who would like to stay an "amateur" under the new structure? Limited selection of races, no contingency. Think of it as a really extened riding school. Yeah, some won't be there long. Some will be there longer. But, at some point, one becomes a
safe racer. That's what's really important. At that point, the person is ready for Sportsman Expert.
I never won a race as a "novice" as we were called way back when. I wrote my letter to become expert, not to stay amateur.
These ideas are best to be addressed on the thread that we're running with please.
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action= display;num=1091400129
Expert but not trying to be an upncommer really. At 36, i just like the regional club racing and am enjoying the new challenge expert racing offers. The occasional National event is VERY cool. I like getting better, and FUSA is another option of pro level isn't it?? That would be the next level up from my local club level expert racing. However, i dont want to travel and incurr all the expense of racing at the pro level (if i were to get to that level). Even FUSA or formula extreem involves alot of travel.
Also.. having multiple levels at the local/regional level would possibly reduce the grids even further wouldnt it?
Keep it simple.
Minimize classes and difficulty in switching between organizations. Maximize grids, contingencies, competition and fan support.
And have an AMA supported SV series. You'd have 40+ bikes in every race, I guarantee it.
(FWIW, I like the current Superstock rules that exist. Changing only bodywork would be much further down the list than say suspension)
The current FUSA series is still expensive, too expensive, for most to consider. There is no real working proving ground at the local level to build better foundations for "upandcomers". You can't build any support or any money racing for the purses in Middleweight Grand Prix. Who can afford travel? A national series is nice, but is it really necessary? Can certain events be just designated as part of a national series to crown a national champion?
Superstock? AMA SV series? Call the AMA.
But, again, where are you going to get good training to do that? Racing for twentith place for twenty points at your local CCS race? If there were a bit of $$ up for grabs, things might be a bit different. A lot of guys go AMA racing unprepared for the qualifying, tire wear, etc.
Additionally, lots of guys go do laps within track day programs trying to "gain" experience. That'll get you so far...real competition will get you further.
WELL DAVE I MAY BE IN THE AMATURE CLASS FOR THE NEXT FEW RACES BUT AT THE START OF NEXT YEAR I'M SURE THAT I WILL BE MOVED UP TO EXPERT. I WILL ALSO BE ON THE 600 ONLY, VS RIDING THE SV AND THE 600. IF YOUR PROPOSAL WERE TO TAKE EFFECT I WOULD RIDE IN THE EXPERT SPORTSMAN CLASS FOR A FEW WEEKENDS TO GET MY FEET WET IN THE EXPERT RANKS,BUT I WOULD WANT TO MOVE UP TO THE PRO EXPERT SO THAT I COULD HAVE A SHOT AT MAKING SOME OF MY MONEY BACK INSTEAD OF JUST DISHING IT OUT LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW. WE ALL KNOW THAT IT IS ALWAYS NICE TO RECOUPE CASH FOR THE NEXT WEEKEND. I DO HAVE ONE QUESTION THOUGH, I'M SURE THERE ARE A FEW OTHER GUYS THAT WOULD BE INTERESTED IN GETTING AN "AMA" LICENSE,INCLUDING MYSELF -UNDER THE CURRENT RULES YOU HAVE TO GET I THINK 100 "AMA" EXPERT POINTS IN A SEASON ALONG WITH A FEW OTHER THINGS LIKE A CCS OFFICAL SIGNING OFF ON YOUR PAPERWORK AND A LIST OF YOU FINISHES BEFORE THEY WILL ISSUE YOU A LICENSE. NOW I KNOW THAT IF YOU WERE TO COMPARE "WERA'S" POINTS STRUCTURE TO "CCS'S" YOU GET MORE "AMA" POINTS FOR A WIN IN A "WERA" RACE THEN YOU DO IN A "CCS" RACE. I GUESS MY QUESTION TURNED INTO MORE OF A COMMENT, WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT CCS WOULD ALSO HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE "AMA" WOULD BE WILLING TO DO. EITHER WAY I AM BEHIND THIS MOVEMENT 100%!!! :)
Why not have:
- Amateur - one championship, short races, certificates for top 10 (geared toward new racers and track days guys who want to test their skills without the huge cost), promotion after 5 rounds within a single season and completion of one advanced race school
=> races include 1 race for each wt class (gp rules), and one multi-wt class gt race (the premier amateur race - trophy top 3)
=> no points, except in the premiere gt class
- Expert Sportsman - multiple championships, current race length, contingency, trophy/plaque for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, no madatory promotion
=> races include supersport and superbike/gp for each wt class, and two gt races (one mw, one ultd)
=> points for the top 15 riders only, scale similar to FIM
- Expert Pro - money, longer races, deeper purse, expectation of pit presentation (uniforms, banners, etc.)
=> races include AMA/FUSA-like classes, plus ltwt supersport and superbike/gp gt classes
=> points based on AMA Expert qualifying points, except points can still be scored if there are less than 16 racers. This would make it obvious to CCS and the racer if you are quallified to run the AMA based on the AMA's rules.
___
- Points for an AMA license would come from the Expert Pro classes only.
- Expert Sportsman can race Expert Pro races after earning a certain number of Expert Sportsman points (except for ltwt racers, whom would be allowed to run the ltwt EP races because of current AM/EX race structure), but cannot participate in more than 2 Expert Pro races in a weekend. After more than 2 Expert Pro races in a weekend, you must be promoted to Expert Pro full-time. This would allow Expert Sportsman time to decide for themselves whether they are ready to step up to the "fast" ranks, kind of like testing the waters several times a season before making the step.
I don't think this limits the EP to fewer opportunities simply because of the greater benefits garnered from the EP competition and purse. I would probably hold most of the EP races on Sunday, with extra testing and qualifying available for EP's on Saturday. I would also have premiere ES and AM races on Sunday to keep them around for the "show". If you ever wrote a script that described one of our regional race weekends, the plot would be boring - practice, followed by racing, followed by more practice, followed by more racing - no crescendo/climax. AMA weekends and FUSA weekends have a climax, fan expectation, something to draw them into staying around for the finale.
Furthermore, if the total number of ES classes are too large, run the mw and ultd classes in one race, one wave for each wt. Maybe in this case you could even give a certificate for overall winner and top 3 simply for recognistion.
Scott, yeah, I see where you're comin' from.
Points for AMA license...WERA vs CCS and everyone else...that's an agreement between WERA and the AMA. The racing organization that we're in was called AMA/CCS until about the middle of 1994...the rest is a long story. The points structure is just a way for the AMA to continually JAB at other organizations that don't bow to their "superiority"...
This structure might really help you... you want to move up and really be challenged, and potentially rewarded. I'd like the reward with the challenge...even in my "declining years..." 8) Some may not want that. So, Sportsman Expert would still allow those riders to have the real opportunity to race for some kind of value...championships, fun, friends...
Sean, I like where you're going...
Good.
Don't like the completion of a racing school....and I try to teach them. There are no "standards" for racing schools. Some riders may never have the opportunity to get to one...and some riders may not need one to be competitive.
As for a mandatory bump after five rounds...
I've worked with riders that have put a bike at the top of the heap on their first weekend racing...not because there was little competition or they had a better bike...And I've seen riders that after two years of regular racing...they just don't get it...They end up being more concerned about the people passing them and where they are in relationship to the people lapping them. With some experience, they might get it...but some never will. Give them a really good opportunity to try.
The "premier" amatuer race is intriging. Not sure if I like points as it starts to make it something that it's not...a championship based on competition when the real focus should be on very basic learning of safety, riding, and set up.
I like the race, but not the points.
Expert Sportsman...I like the GT thing, but I'd like one for the lightweights too...how many classes to we really have now?
You'd either be Expert Sportsman or Expert Pro...You wouldn't go to from amateur to Expert Pro without once racing as Expert Sportsman.
I agree that you'd want some of the premier classes of each racing category on Sunday. Got to show everyone what it looks like at speed.
SuperDave,
I was thinking the ltwt racer could race the Expert Pro lt classes because the range of the vehicle speeds/lap times. Currently, the field of fast amateur and expert ltwt racers are pretty close, which could lead to some fun racing at the EP level. I am open to more input from presumed ES lt wt racers. How many classes would folks like? Let's make fitness a more prominent factor in who wins a race. Longer gt races at every level would draw this out more.
The points for the amateur gt was merely to draw the new guys into regularly participating
I like some of the ideas, especially the ones with the Pro classes. The thing is, I don't really see how they are necessary. We already have our "Pro" class--FUSA. I am that exact racer you guys are talking about, the guy that wants to test the waters at a pro level, well, I did, at Barber. It was fun and I learned a lot. I don't see were the "pro" class has to be at every single club event, however. In my opinion, it would look real good on paper, until the grids were made and the was four people in each one. I am not trying to snuff your opinions, I just think that you are talking about a MAJOR restructuring in the way every event is run (not that that is always a bad idea, either).
Another thing to consider is the guy like me. I am like most other club racers, in that I have a very limited budget, have only one racebike, and like CCS because I get to enter it in 4 to 5 classes where I can fairly compete. That is honestly why I chose CCS over WERA, more classes. Yes, fewer classes with longer races could be okay, but for the small guy with one bike, a simple lowside with a broken footpeg can ruin your whole weekend, because you could only enter one or two classes.
Lastly, I fully agree with everyone one the sandbagging issue, however. My best friend Sean races an SV. This past race at Barber was only his third time on the track racing. I am not saying that he deserves to win, because hey, don't we all? But some of the guys on the podium in those amatuer events were no amatuers. One guy was saying how he raced WERA last year and won their amatuer LW championship. And this is my point, limiting the amount of races a guy can enter in CCS amatuer won't solve anything, because guys like that switch organizations every year. Next year he will probably go back to WERA and petition to stay amatuer because he "took the year off" when actually he was racing CCS. WERA, CCS, and other organizations need to look harder at a persons credentials and talk to each other to find out how one guy performed in the other organization. That is the way I best see solving this sandbagging issue.
Very Respectfully,
Barry Savoie #197 ex
I think this should be a Blackhawk Farms action first for experimental purposes, maybe not all of the rounds either.
QuoteCurrently, the field of fast amateur and expert ltwt racers are pretty close, which could lead to some fun racing at the EP level.
The field of the top middleweight and heavyweight experts aren't too far ahead of the top amateurs either. But the little bit is enough.
If you mix them, there is no point in separating them.
QuoteI think this should be a Blackhawk Farms action first for experimental purposes, maybe not all of the rounds either.
You'd have to do a whole region and the regions that race within that system or you'd have chaos.
Quote We already have our "Pro" class--FUSA. I am that exact racer you guys are talking about, the guy that wants to test the waters at a pro level, well, I did, at Barber. It was fun and I learned a lot. I don't see were the "pro" class has to be at every single club event, however. In my opinion, it would look real good on paper, until the grids were made and the was four people in each one. I am not trying to snuff your opinions, I just think that you are talking about a MAJOR restructuring in the way every event is run (not that that is always a bad idea, either).
Ok, good...bad feedback...
The exclusivity of having only eight "pro" races competing during fifty events nation wide doesn't do much for the series on either side.
Only a very select few people can even consider going to most of the events, even though it is only eight races. If we have 5000 plus licensed racers in CCS, only about thirty maybe are able to contest most of that season.
The pay is poor. It was better. There is little foundation at the real grass roots local level to prepare potential pro riders. Really, if you have an expert license, you're "pro". You only need points and you can get an AMA "pro" license...again, it's strictly nomenclature.
Would you learn more if the playing field was a bit different every week at your local races? We've got five races at Blackhawk. We had some extra money for a few purse races and guys were really taking the opportunity to step up to try and take it.
Loudon has it good with such a heavily competitive area. Greenwood, Woods, and others.
WSMC seems to have their own independent program with a location that makes them prime for trying to breed some new stars, and keeping older ones racing.
As for grids...there was more than four guys for each of the FUSA races at Barber, Daytona, Summit, RA, etc... If you put out some money, someone is going to try and take it. I wouldn't let it go without a fight.
QuoteAnother thing to consider is the guy like me. I am like most other club racers, in that I have a very limited budget, have only one racebike, and like CCS because I get to enter it in 4 to 5 classes where I can fairly compete. That is honestly why I chose CCS over WERA, more classes. Yes, fewer classes with longer races could be okay, but for the small guy with one bike, a simple lowside with a broken footpeg can ruin your whole weekend, because you could only enter one or two classes.
This is exactly what we're talking about.
You're on a limited budget, you like a good number of races.
What pro race did you do at Barber?
Did you do other CCS races?
I have a very limited budget. Same deal. Generally, this is everyone. We're teetering on the edge of disaster.
Would it be worth the opportunity for payback? Has to be an individual question. For me, yeah, given the opportunity, I'd have to try to race a money race. That's the price of admision. The alternative is to race for "points"...those are nice for bragging, but seldom in my career have points really mattered to potential sponsors. What mattered to them was me trying my best and working hard at what I did. The points came with the territory.
QuoteLastly, I fully agree with everyone one the sandbagging issue, however. My best friend Sean races an SV. This past race at Barber was only his third time on the track racing. I am not saying that he deserves to win, because hey, don't we all? But some of the guys on the podium in those amatuer events were no amatuers. One guy was saying how he raced WERA last year and won their amatuer LW championship. And this is my point, limiting the amount of races a guy can enter in CCS amatuer won't solve anything, because guys like that switch organizations every year. Next year he will probably go back to WERA and petition to stay amatuer because he "took the year off" when actually he was racing CCS. WERA, CCS, and other organizations need to look harder at a persons credentials and talk to each other to find out how one guy performed in the other organization. That is the way I best see solving this sandbagging issue.
There will never be a data base to check whether a rider raced once place or another. Organizations schedule on top of each other, etc.
However if the structure is different, winning a Expert Sportsman race wouldn't be a cake walk. And there would be no monetary or contingency reward for sandbagging as an amateur.
CCS got off the ground in 1984 by paying experts a purse in all classes. Somewhere around 1986 or 1987 that stopped...might have been in 1988, I can't say exactly. The road racers from that era represented some of the poorest rags to riches riders in history. Russell didn't have the give of much...but he rode and rode and rode. James, Polen.
Purses have diminished and now some of the top riders can get someplace by buying B level rides. That's nice and all, but that isn't really a privateer effort in my eyes.
So, who's gonna have a chance.
A restructuring might allow some to make a name for themselves at the local Pro Expert level. Some will never attain that level, but they will have fun. Some pro experts might never make enough money to really pay for racing, but they might some value in continuing try to do so rather than just walking away.
More thoughts?
You're sure right about your proposal not making expert sportsman a cake walk. Look at how the fast amateurs lap through the expert field now off a two wave start. All those talented beginners and salty long-termers would be mixing it up on a heads-up basis. This proposal would make it harder for a guy like me to win, not easier.
That doesn't bother me, though. Nothing is worse than the way things go now. Four guys, all with AMA experience and me line up. The flag waves, they're gone. I ride to the finish and collect my fifth place trophy. Oooooh! Fun! Not.
When I was a beginning amateur on really uncompetitive equipment, I could always find a RACE for 19th place. Then I could find a RACE for 10th. Finally, it was a RACE for first through fifth. Then I went expert.
In two years, I've had ONE really good race. It's just not worth racing in CCS any more the way things are going. Personally, I want to get an SV. (Need bales of money to fall from the sky) There are so damn many of those things out there every weekend that I'm almost gauranteed to have a RACE, be it for first or fifteenth.
Well, racing isn't supposed to be a cake walk, now is it?
C O M P E T I T I O N
That's what it is.
Salty veterens? Do you go for points or cash? I can tell you in a heart beat that Ed Key is going for Cash. Edgar Dorn? I think cash. Lacy? Cash. I'd put more effort into the H1 with cash available.
Here's one...
Stumpy where's Ryan? Ryan Johnson is a good rider and he currently races amateur. Hey, what would you expect? He's putting in a good effort...might not be buying all the fuel to get the Stumpy mobile to the races, but I recognize the emotional effort he's puttin' in.
So, he's a fast amateur. Now, he has the opportunity to race in Expert Sportsman for points and all that good stuff....or do you jump into the Pro Expert stuff early trying to gain more experience and maybe some cash.
K3, would you have been the other side? You try Pro Expert and find that the efforts of regular life and a new bike are beyond your reasonable emotional and financial expectations. Racing in Expert Sportsman might be a better way to go.
If you're a fifty-some year old guy like Roger Hendricks, I know that you're gonna do Pro Expert.
Should we make a list of people?
I'm in for Pro Expert.
Stumpy...he'd be pro-expert. What we're putting together for next year wouldn't make sense anywhere else--more on this at a later date.
Johnson...I think he could be a competitive pro-expert next year, too, even though this is his first year racing...but is the budget there? I don't know.
My opinion is let's not re-invent the wheel here. What are the methods used in motocross? I thought they had a three-tier system. I could have drempt that, though.
And, let's keep finding ways to increase the purses--if not to win $, but to increase the participants! I never thought about it, but now I have some ideas I'm going to toss around with a certain sponsor of ours who's looking to break into the motorcycle market.
New purse=bigger grids. I don't think this was a coincidence in MWGP, MWSB or HWSS last Blackhawk.
Spectators come to see races.
Racers race with a little more enthusiasm when there's cash up for grabs.
I competed in the MZ Skorpion Cup National Championship in 1998. Stock MZ's...we could change the chain and sprockets, fork oil, tires, brake pads, and put on fiberglass bodywork. That was it. Paid good money too...especially when they only make 42HP so you only use two sets of tires during the year....
Anyway, we were the race of the day. Racers and spectators (we had them at AHRMA events with no problems and they have lower entry fees and licensing fees) would line up to see who was going to win.
At the last Blackhawk there were about 570 people that lined up to race. I know that I didn't do one race that I had entered...I think that Bill told me that we had 640 and some odd entries total... Given that each rider enters about four races, that's 140 plus riders.
319 starters were Experts
240 starters plus (HWSS numbers were missing) amateurs
3 starters in the combined 125 GP
70 riders that started the traditional purse races. GT races were a bit low given the rain that we had. Potentially, there would have been more starters in those classes on Saturday and overall then.
There were 88 additional starters for the four extra money races. Pretty much half.
Eight classes of eighteen (or nineteen if you want to count the 125 GP) we're accounting for almost half of the expert field.
MX - usually AMA sanctioned, and they have three tradtional tiers - A, B, C.
Speaking as someone who is looking to get started
A novice class sounds great...
Where do I sign ;D
Ok, so let's start on the starter program.
We can call it Novice for our purposes here.
After successful competion of a riding school, a racer becomes a novice.
Racing classes: Lightwieght Sport, Middleweight Sport, Heavyweight Sport, and Lightweight Solo and Heavyweight Solo.
Riders may not "bump up" into larger displacement cateories.
Saturday events...
Lightweight Sport - rules as per Lightweight Grand Prix
Middleweight Sport - rules as per Middleweight Grand Prix
Heavyweight Sport - rules as per Unlimited Grand Prix
Sunday events...
Lightweight Solo - rules as per Lightweight Sport with 50% more laps than Sport races.
Heavyweight Solo - rules a per Middleweight and Heavyweight Sport with 50% more laps that Sport races.
(We need to give riders two race opportunities?)
As per CCS's program, two entries would cost $120...includes practice. Pay your gate fee...you're racing for less than a cost of a track day.
No points structure. Certificates of accomplishment for top ten.
Minimum stay as "novice" two event weekends?
Maximum? Although I wanted to place a maximum time on this, no I'm almost reconsidering. Maybe there is a class of racer that would race with such infrequency that they may never learn a whole lot. At some point, a rider would just be too fast for it, I suppose, but that rider might be lured by contingency in Expert Sportsman?
Any thoughts on this?
Hmmm. Sounds familiar. Sounds good to me. You can get your feet wet while not worrying about your equipment. It's almost like track day races.
Here's a novel idea, start holding race schools at track days, then market the novice class to the track day guys to draw them without making it too expensive. I think the track day rider is concern with tire life in terms of days, not races, so this format might be attractive to them.
QuoteHmmm. Sounds familiar. Sounds good to me. You can get your feet wet while not worrying about your equipment. It's almost like track day races.
Here's a novel idea, start holding race schools at track days, then market the novice class to the track day guys to draw them without making it too expensive. I think the track day rider is concern with tire life in terms of days, not races, so this format might be attractive to them.
Yeah, I'm lifting ideas now...LOL! Made sense. It was simple while keeping things segregated and giving that extra ride. Doesn't need to be 25 or 30 minutes, but a little longer would be good.
Having schools at track days....
Yeah, it should be that way. But I have to assume that CCS's expense in doing so would be cost prohibitive. It's a money maker for them, it's a money maker for the guys that teach the simple program.
Why couldn't schools be on Fridays? The upside would be in favor of the newbie getting two days to race and enjoy the experience. I don't think you'd get any fewer people just because it's a Friday. Track days guys go to events that are held during the week all of the time.
Of course, my comments relate more to the ideal situation.
QuoteWhy could schools be on Fridays? The upside would be in favor of the newbie getting two days to race and enjoy the experience. I don't think you'd get any fewer people just because it's a Friday. Track days guys go to events that are held during the week all of the time.
Of course, my comments relate more to the ideal situation.
You can't have Blackhawk on Fridays, for a quick example.
Keep it easy. Yeah, you'd like it, but that adds another day of rental to the track and staff. Big $$.
Ok, here's some ideas for the "Pro Expert" racing classes. Currently, I think I counted seventeen or eighteen classes...this would reduce it in half.
Thunderbike - Yeah, same.
Sportbike Light - LWSS rules
Grand Prix Light - LWGP rules
Sportbike - MWSS rules
Formula Grand Prix - MWGP rules
Formula Sportbike - HWSS rules
Unlimited Sportbike - ULSS rules
Unlimited Grand Prix - ULGP rules
Increase the laps by 50% over current sprints.
Eliminate GTL, GTU, and GTO from the "pro expert" schedule...
With the reduction in classes, qualifying could be done for particular categories -smaller bikes, larger bikes? Numbers in the field? Two to three sessions...your one qualifying lap on that bike is your time for all your races that you ride that bike in...that would keep a rider from having to try and manage three tires or something for three qualifying sessions.
How about a Purse that pays from first to fifteenth?
$350 for the win with fifteenth getting $50.
Expert Sportsman...
Keep the basic format as current, basically...Include the F40's, Supertwins, UltraLWSB, GT's with certs, etc...
Does one combine LWSB and LWGP...and MWSB and MWGP?
125's? How about a combined Sportsman/Pro expert field? Small purse for top five like a GT?
QuoteWell, racing isn't supposed to be a cake walk, now is it?
C O M P E T I T I O N
That's what it is.
Racing is absolutely NOT supposed to be a cakewalk. Racing is one of the few places left that you still have a WINNER and everyone else walks away with a relative ranking. Kids who play soccer games where they don't keep score... schools who don't do grades... without that, what exactly is supposed to inspire to you want to do better?
No one "deserves" to win, IMO. If you want to win, then you have to do what it takes to get yourself up on top. Some folks may never get there - due to talent, budget, desire... and that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
Ok, here's a new version of the rules that I was working on...
2.2.4 Riders will be issued Regional Series licenses as Novice, Sportsman, or Expert
A. CCS Officials will issue Expert licenses to those riders with proven experience or ability as follows:
(1.) Applicats who are renewing a CCS Expert license or who are applying with an Expert license from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1
B. CCS Officials will issue Sportsman licenses to those riders with safe and reasonable ability and experience as follows:
(1.) Applicants who are renewing a CCS Amateur (as per current nomenclature) or who are applying with an amateur license from one of the racing organizations listed in section 2.2.1
(2.) Any Novice Rider who in the opinion of CCS Officials has safe and reasonable ability.
C. CCS Officials will issue Novice licenses to riders that meet any of the following criteria:
(1.) Riders that are applying with Provisional Amateur/Novice licenses from one of the racing organizations listed in 2.2.1
(2.) Riders applying with a certificate indicating completion of an approved Riders School.
(3.) Riders applying with a CCS Sport Rider card.
2.2.5 STATUS CHANGES - Riders who change in status during the season will not carry points to their new status
A. Expert riders will be granted the opportunity to be moved to Sportsman status.
B. Sportsman riders must petition to be moved to Expert. Riders who in the opinion of CCS Officials has the ability and reasonable experience for Expert competition will be moved to Expert. CCS reserves the right to deny Expert Status to any Sportsman rider that may not meet this criteria.
C. Sportsman riders may petition to be moved to Novice. Riders must show proof of inexperience or a lapse in competition
D. Novice riders will be offered the opportunity to move to Sportsman status with proof of safe and reasonable ability and experience after a minimum of two events.
My original thread of origin starts here....
http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action=display;num=1091400129
Dave-
I really like the idea of reducing the number of classes and increasing the length of races. I also like the idea of three skill levels. However, I have a couple of comments.
1) While it would be nice to have a class for every single bike, CCS may have an issue with having several of the classes only have light attendance. That is why they keep adding 600 classes. They get the best turnout and therefore the most entry fees. The new class structure will have to financially benefit CCS if there is to be change. Although if the rules staed consistent like that, I would assume that riders would gravitate to the new classes. (Is that like the factories and the AMA rules? :) )
2) (This sort of contradicts my first point.) If a bike will be eligible for a class in CCS, I think it will need to be eligible for a minimum of two classes in order to get riders to attend for the weekend. This should not be an issue for bikes that can race up a class. (ie: 600s in the 750 class) However, if I read the rules correctly, there would only be one race that an expert rider with a liter-bike could race in. Is that correct. There are only 3 classes that would work now. That is not too bad, but I don't think just one would work.
Correct me if I am wrong, as I have not read the entire thread. Also, feel free to give me crap for buying that dang 1000. ;)
Oops, there are two classes for a 1000. I have not checked other classes yet. Sorry Dave!
LOL, you thing...
Bill, yeah, I was thinking a lot of the things you are. There are two classes for a 1000.
CCS has not kept adding 600 classes except for the Sportbike class that they had for one year, last year. Really, the classes are the same as they have been for quite some time.
In 1993, I entered nine classes a weekend to win the number one plate on a current production supersport 600. I can still enter nine classes on a 600. If I was 40, I could enter it in Formula 40.
Oh, come on Dave, admit it finally and enter Formula 40. Your not fooling any of us. Beside then you will have something to blame your thought patterns on, old age.
I'd race CMRA instead of CCS if I lived down there. Saturday is for the rider,s school, a few races similar to what Dave is talking about with novice groups. (including something like 50cc or 80cc GP for your KIDS to start racing on!) And then a 4-6 hour endurance race. Sunday is a Light, Middle, Heavy, unlimited sprint day, With an SS class and a GP class for each, and one race dedicated to the two stroke fans. Simple, cheap, fun. ENDURANCE, BABY!
QuoteI'd race CMRA instead of CCS if I lived down there. Saturday is for the rider,s school, a few races similar to what Dave is talking about with novice groups. (including something like 50cc or 80cc GP for your KIDS to start racing on!) And then a 4-6 hour endurance race. Sunday is a Light, Middle, Heavy, unlimited sprint day, With an SS class and a GP class for each, and one race dedicated to the two stroke fans. Simple, cheap, fun. ENDURANCE, BABY!
AMEN Brotha!
WERA never kept it's hold in the Midwest with endurance racing etc. Might work at Hallett (I'd bet that the cost of Hallet is quite a bit cheaper (OKC and Tulsa being the big communities) when compared to Blackhawk (Chicago, Milwaukee, Rockford, Republic of Madision). CMRA is inexpensive, but it's part of their market.
CRA has a big endurance race...
WERA endurance at Grattan...
Me in F40? Purk's gonna beat me to that class. I'll have to let him win...so, is birth considered a Lemaz start?
Dave:
I'm been very busy lately, so I haven't had time to pick through the threads....
In this new proposal, what classes would the Expert Sportsman 700cc SV's fit in?
Thanks,
Dawn :)
Thunderbike - Yeah, same.
Sportbike Light - LWSS rules
Grand Prix Light - LWGP rules
Dawn, I think you would be elegible for the first and third of these classes, and could of course enter middleweight stuff if Paul was feeling froggy!
Just for the record, FZR 560 should be let in thunderbike too. That stupid engine cases rule is outdated and irrelivant. WERA allowed the YZF cases years ago. I stopped campaigning on that rule when I sold my Fizzer, but the bikes are still out there.
Face it. A 560 or even a 600 motor in a FZR400 chassis will make about the same power with flatslides as a goos SV superbike or an F2. The F2 should also be allowed in Lightweight Superbike. We're talking performance issues here, not petty rules. These three bikes are just about all that is left as options for lightweight racing at any sort of competitive level. For the sake of the class, I would say that :
Superbike
FZR400 frame can have FZR600 Motor (Not YZF, because it has a better head and more RPM)
F2 Lightweight legal per Thunderbike specs.
SV per current superbike specs.
Supersport
Supersport prep on a F2 or Fizzer 600 makes it Lightweight SS legal. (An SS legal SV is still the best, but a guy could be track ready for $2000 on the F2 or FZR 600)
These three bikes are all affordable, easily prepped, and very well matched. SOME class needs to be entry level for affordable machines!
Any comments on this?
I don't know about F2's in LW classes...You can build them up to having 105 HP's in a reliable form, add F3 suspension and they handle real well since CCS thunderbike does not have the HP/weight rules!
They could pretty much check out in the LW classes fairly easily with a good rider on board. I understand them being allowed in Thunderbike, but I am not sure about LW's...
Regarding endurance racing, it takes a very dedicated group to run endurances every weekend!! Lot's of maintenance and work in between weekends to freshen the bikes up. Personally, I would do it, but not sure how profitable it would be for CCS.
Hey Dave, when you mention "longer races" for the expert levels, How much longer are you talking about? 50% longer? 100% longer?
Hey Dave,
I know I haven't been out much this year, but racing is in my blood and I will see you, Purk, and Hendricks in the formula 40 class too.
Anyway, I like the three tier deal as well. One or two classes for the beginner level per weekend with their own practise. Let them run whatever they've got, they're beginners and don't have a lot of money and really just want to get their feet wet.
Limiting the number of available classes is a great idea... I don't know what to enter anymore, so I enter the ones that I have a chance of making some money back in when I enter. That's how I do it. We've got way too many class overlaps that just waste time. Give us longer races and give us more purse.
Need a petition, I'll sign it.
Milroy Jr.
Hey Jimmy, I was reading your post so fast at first I thought it said "I need a pension" instead of, "Need a petition" When did the racing thing get bennies!!!
PJ
I've had a lot of e-mails back and forth.
Jim, guys...I'm all for something different for noobs, but I can't see where I can get it going because of resistance. Still might come up with some ideas.
Less races. Seems as though it's a money issue on one side. I don't have answers. Question: Would you pay extra for your first class to have fewer races during the event weekend?
I want purses for expert races. Question: Would you pay extra for your expert entries to have a purse (preferably in the form that I have up somewhere...one that pays first through fifteenth), but it might not be a longer race?
Longer races were implemeted this year from average of 14-15 miles to races of 17-19 even 20 miles.
What is the response to that riders entering fewer races as they can get their fix, hit the wear limit on tires or are just plain tired after 3 races rather than 4.
Longer races? We've had eight lap races at Blackhawk ever since I can remember. Isn't any longer this year.
As for racers being tired after three to four races...Eric, isn't the average like 4.7 or something? Some racers are limited by machine (GSXR1000 can only enter three classes...how many classes could you race competitively if you had a Ninja 250...). And there are some racers that enter more. A good deal more just to keep the average up.
Tires...depends upon how fast you can go and how fast you want to go. If I enter nine races and I want to win them, the tire bill is going to be pretty big. However, if I didn't think I could win, I could run the new Michelin Pilot Power Sport or something...isn't going to be as fast as the Michelin Pilot Race DOT...I'd still do well, but it would certainly be harder to win.
So, the balancing act becomes...
- If you want a purse, you're gonna have higher entry fees to cover the purse
- If you'd like fewer races, you're gonna have to have higher entry fees to cover the costs of the track, amoritization of insurance, office, etc
- If you want fewer races AND a purse, you're gonna have even more cost
I would be willing to pay a little more if there was a purse that paid and paid deep.
I would also like longer races. For 50% more money, at least twice as many laps.
I would be willing to pay $70 - 80 per race, if every race is 12 laps (on average tracks) and pays to $10 place. Doesn't have to pay a whole lot, maybe $50 for 10th. Then I will enter 4 races.
I would be willing to pay $100 per race for a premier/pro level race that pays maybe 15th and lasts 30 minutes, or roughly 16 laps (twice the normal sprint) and have a qualifying session. (like a FUSA race)
In all I favor longer races and deeper purse even if I have to pay more per race. Higher fees and less races will lead to more practice time (hopefully) as well.
I would certainly go for the pro/expert level license.
Maybe Pro/Expert races will be longer and deeper purses and higher fees (like FUSA races) so we will have a mini FUSA weekend every weekend.
Sportsman classes can be 50% longer and pay 5-10 places with a less total purse and $70 entry fees.
The problem I see is how many races can a pro/ex enter per weekend. I would have to be able to enter 2-3 races to justify coming to race. Maybe 1 per day at least.
So
Pro/Ex have 6 races (2 per weight class)
Sportsman have more races (most)
Novice have 3 races (3 weight class)
I would like to see that. You can still race up classes, so opportunties are there.
Pro/ex races will grid based on the second practice session times. Sportsman grid by points or entry.
practices:
novice group
sportsman even
sportsman odd
sportsman lightweight
ex light
ex mw/hw (second rotation split mw and hw for time qualifying)
thats roughly my proposal, Dave email me/post here if you have thoughts or questions. I am supporting this change all the way, I kind of mentioned it last year but we didn't have any momentum
QuoteThunderbike - Yeah, same.
Sportbike Light - LWSS rules
Grand Prix Light - LWGP rules
For the sake of the class, I would say that :
Superbike
FZR400 frame can have FZR600 Motor (Not YZF, because it has a better head and more RPM)
F2 Lightweight legal per Thunderbike specs.
SV per current superbike specs.
Supersport
Supersport prep on a F2 or Fizzer 600 makes it Lightweight SS legal. (An SS legal SV is still the best, but a guy could be track ready for $2000 on the F2 or FZR 600)
These three bikes are all affordable, easily prepped, and very well matched. SOME class needs to be entry level for affordable machines!
Any comments on this?
I agree with this whole-heartedly!!
Especially the point, "SOME class needs to be entry level for affordable machines!" Those of us in this for the personal challenge, fun and comraderie really aren't about to dig too deeply to get on the track, remain on the track, or be among the top three in the race.
BTW, Numbskullz, F2 are currently LW legal in F40L. But I understand your point ablut how an F2 can be tweaked to produce some serious ponies and in the hands of a rider other than me....
H-man