Last weekend at Blackhawk, there were experts gridded in a second wave behind amateurs. I have never seen this before, and the results were predictable. In race 14 on Sunday, the 125 GP bikes were put in a second wave behind the ULGP experts and amateurs. By the end of the first lap, the 125's had already caught some amateurs, and the rest of the race was spent working through the slower field. It ruined the race among the 125 riders, as they are about as fast on the straights as the bigger bikes but faster through all the corners. A last minute mechanical issue made me a DNS, but I watched the frustration of the 125 group as they were repeatedly balked by groups of slower bikes in the corners.
At the previous BHF event, the 125s were started ahead of the other classes. This worked out well. I am the slowest of the 125 riders who regularly show up to race, and I was caught by only a few bikes from behind. The other 125 riders took off and were free to race each other. The 125s were started at the back because of a perception that they are small, and so must be slow. C'mon-check the lap times and you'll see that it isn't so. 35-40hp in a 170lb package is as fast as 80hp in a 340lb package, but corners faster. Start the 125's at the front, and there may be a few talented, fast guys on the bigger bikes who may catch them, but that's more fair than making our entire class work it's way through a slower group gridded ahead.
I know race 14 was NOT ULGP. Race seven was ULGP expert and eight was ULGP amateur.
I know that race twelve was MWSB. You might have been with Thunderbike...a combined event.
Did you take up the issue with the Referee or the Race Director?
Quotethere may be a few talented, fast guys on the bigger bikes who may catch them, but that's more fair than making our entire class work it's way through a slower group gridded ahead.
There's the trick. It goes both ways. I know that an SV can do 15's at Blackhawk in Supersport trim. I can't give you numbers on 125's currently. Should be similar.
Rossi's Yamaha is slower in the straights.
Dave,
You're right. I meant LWSB, it was Ultra Light Super Bike - AM & Ex, that we were combined with, as usual. That's okay, we don't have enough 125s for a race by ourselves, but the faster bikes should start first
A good SV with a good rider can probably do 15's at BHF, but that's the exception, and certainly not the rule. I can't imagine that many ULSB Amateurs are doing 15's, probably more like 25-30s. The 125s in our rider group are doing 1:20 (except for me, 28-29s).
I guess my question is how to enact a change. Should we talk to the Race Director to state our case before grids are drawn up and posted?
That would have been my fault. I do the computer and gridding at Blackhawk and we had a discussion about it and we thought that would work out the best. I am sorry that it did not.
In the future I will grid the 125s first since that seems to work the best for you all. Glad for the insight and once again I am sorry.
Amy-Thanks, you're a doll! Drawing the grids is a pressure cooker job, and I'm sure you are always working hard to decide what's best within a severe time restraint. I'll talk to you at the next BHF!
I did a 1:19 last year
QuoteA good SV with a good rider can probably do 15's at BHF, but that's the exception, and certainly not the rule. I can't imagine that many ULSB Amateurs are doing 15's, probably more like 25-30s. The 125s in our rider group are doing 1:20 (except for me, 28-29s).
I guess my question is how to enact a change. Should we talk to the Race Director to state our case before grids are drawn up and posted?
Were you racing against ULSB or LWSB?
That's gonna change things. LWSB is going to be faster than you as Thorny was able to win with his 19's on an older RS125 vs many guys that I work with on LWSB's doing below 20's. It's always a trick. ULSB...mish mash of stuff, so... I don't know times off the top of my head.
But if you look at the schedule and see something, ask Amy, Bill, someone.
Most SV's in the AM class this year, at lest the front 5-6 are running 1:22's at a slowest pace, and an average of 1:20's front SV guys in AM even supersport are pushing 18's. It's getting fast out there. The SV riders that are in that 25-30 range have to be outside of the top 10 I would imagine.
So yeah it gets difficult to try and work these things out. The GP bikes, aren't given very many classes anyway even the 250's seeing them have to run with middleweights is pretty crazy.
How ever you look at it someones not going to be happy. I think they made the right call by putting the 125s in the back. Becasue I have seen a 125 rider get a slow bad start and an R1 run right into the back of him takem them both out. Not to say that its the norm but there have been several close calls at summit. safty first
Just my 2cents
Keep in mind the 125s should only be in front for a two wave start. In a combined class single wave, they should not be in front, as I have seen done at times out here in SW. The SVs and thumpers will kill the 125s off the line. With 125s in front, some 125 rider will get their leg ran over as they paddle their bike trying to get it to move...
I think it's safer for the 125s having to deal with the slower "big" bikes in turn one than get ran over on the start. It would be safer still to just always have a 2 wave with the 125s up front.
And yes, I generally mix it up with the slower 125s on my CR500 and it can be a little scary as we take such different lines and are fast in different places. Probably scarier for them because their eye level is at my footpeg.
-z.
Quotethe faster bikes should start first...
The faster bikes did start first. Expert Ultra Light Superbike times at Blackhawk are typically in the mid to low 17s to high 16s for Gary P., Billy B. and myself. We had 7 experts and 7 amateurs take the grid on Sunday. There were 3 125s.
Personally, it doesn't bother me to catch and pass the 125s when they start in the wave ahead of us, as it sometimes makes our race more interesting. And I understand the frustration of the fastest 125s having to work through the slower ULSBs. I had the same issue at the Barber round working through 40+ 125s. The big issue is the speed and preferred line differences between the bikes.
QuoteThe faster bikes did start first. Expert Ultra Light Superbike times at Blackhawk are typically in the mid to low 17s to high 16s for Gary P., Billy B. and myself. We had 7 experts and 7 amateurs take the grid on Sunday. There were 3 125s.
Thanks, Paul. Very telling.
Any cool jobs at H-D for someone like me?
It doesn't matter which group you start first in a two wave start. The real problem seems to be that if you grid experts then amateurs in one class in the first wave, then experts and amateurs in another class in the second wave, the experts in the second wave will always catch the amateurs in the first wave. It would be better to grid all experts in both classes in the first wave and all amateurs in both classes ( 125GP and ULWSB ) in the second wave.
I agree with alfauno as the 125 should be up front.. Its a lot easier for a bigger bike who is running 17's to pass us on the straight as it is for us to pass over half the field who is not doing the 17's. There is only about 3 bikes in HWSB that are in the 17;s and Although I wasn't able to race the last round at BHF because of my broken collar bone (that happened passing a SV in a turn) I run 18's and can say I absolutely hate the first lap in our race..
Thanks amydiaz for listening and I would really hope to see us up front from now on..
I like Hanksters idea. Expert 125's lineup behind quicker off the line experts and the 2nd wave amatures with 125's in back. The safety thing with 2 strokes off the line is unreal and I feel for them when I'm in the way in the corner but seriously, cutting through 3 lines of two strokes off the grid IS not safe.
Now I'm gonna Brag, at the dragstrip my bike does low 11's and with practice could be in the 10's. The 125's, though they have my deepest respect as roadracers because they absolutly fly, I can't imagine them turning less than 25. The difference in the first 5 seconds is HUGE!
Okay, so it's settled- 125s get a rolling start! ;)
QuoteOkay, so it's settled- 125s get a rolling start! ;)
nah, it really should be a LeMans start! That would be cool!
Ilike the idea of all experts starting up front, but with a two wave start. I don't care how fast of a 125 rider you are, going to the proctologist to have a 4 stroke removed hurts. In a perfect world more people would have interest in two stroke racing and you could have your own race. Just putting you up front will get someone seriously hurt. I agree that two strokes usually carry more cornering speed, but if it were me, I would rather have trouble passing than closing my eyes on the start waiting to mate with an SV.
Apparently you all have forgotten what a two wave start is, one group starts then as that group crests turn one the second wave is started. If you a$$ pack anyone apparently you DON'T know what a two wave start is, or you walked into the wrong bar.
The Two stroke racing that I was involved with I was lapping riders mid way through lap two, riders started in the second wave. I guess I just took it as those riders were going through the same learning process I also had to go through in the past. In a GT lights race I was in on the 125 some of the huge numbers of SV guys were so learning that while out breaking and out corner speeding those riders I had to deal with such unsmooth riders that I traded paint with literally 6 riders in one race. People there is no perfect way, you will always have a problem with the way things are. I may think the same thing you are trying to change is working just fine, and vise/versa.
Bottom line, other people have to learn too. I might have been able to do well right away but someone else didn't, so do I say things like, "He isn't as fast as me on the 125's he should start in the back so he is out of my way," No, I just pass him if I can when the race starts.
You are racers, that means you are trying to be first after the certain amount of laps. So rather than asking for people to start behind you, just pass them all!
Well stated.
Yea... scarry is racing in the GTL race with the SVs... even scarier is being on pole for the race.
I need all the advantage I can get against the SVs, but sometimes I really consider gridding at the back b/c I feel someone gonna run into me. :)
But, the good thing is that I get to miss, sit back, and watch everyone cram into T1, and by the time I catch up, it starts to thin a little and be less crazy.
Check out the SV melee I got on tape from Barber. I was on pole, and thought to myself. "I must have a death wish" :D
I mean.. I'm on pole, and have what, like 15 bikes pass me already going into T1. And that's a short straight... VIR is worse.. most of the field passes me b4 T1.
http://onboardvideos.com/04-08-barber-ccs-gtl.wmv
Well, being an SV rider, I find it great when I see a whole bunch of 125's gridded in front of me. At least I know I won't have to fight for position with them when entering turn one... all I have to do is grid a foot to the side and prepare to blow by.
;D ;D ;D
QuoteThanks, Paul. Very telling.
Any cool jobs at H-D for someone like me?
Sure! We're always looking for more underwear models!
Seriously, Harley has a good section on the website that describes current career opportunities.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/CO/CAR/en/careeropportunities.asp?locale=en_US&bmLocale=en_US
Or call me sometime to discuss. 414-343-8735.
I agree with cstem on this one...put the experts all up front and the 125's wait for the 2nd wave...
No matter how much you smoke the clutch on a 125 to get a good start, you will never be able to catch a SV, or thumper, or whatever bike is in front of you in the first turn...
I personally don't mind having to go through traffic, its a challenge and it is a race, even though they may be in their own race class, its still fun to try and get around an SV, or thumper, or whatever bike is in front of you...
and, if you want to race with other 125's try usgpru...pretty cool to watch everyone fighting for position, just waiting patiently for someone to make a mistake, and then you watch 2 or 3 riders whiz by!
Yes, i do wish there were more 2 strokes out on the track....until you have ridden one, you will have no idea how much fun they are!! ;)
I think we have completely got off the main topic.. What alfauno and I are talking about is for our race NOT lightweight GP or GT Lights put 125's in the first wave we clear the first turn (don't get a 4 up our a$$)and then let the LWSB go, that way only 1 or 2 guys are going to get by us rather than us get by over half the field..
It's pretty simple- 125 experts start in a first wave. That way they don't block the ULSB start, which is a second wave, and will never be seen again. Amateur 125s can start with the amateur ULSB field. This way we don't have experts starting BEHIND amateurs, and everyone has a fair race. If there are a couple of fast SV experts who can catch the 125s, they aren't going to be held up- they can pass on any straight, and the 125s don't have to work through most of the field ahead while trying to race each other.
You chose your racebike/tool. If you are unable to pass a 4-stroke then learn to use your tool better.
I'm down for Lemans starts.
Sincerly yours,
Yellow Plated Sandbagger
There seems to be a little confusion here. We have people talking about SV's versus 125's whereas the problem in the ULWSB race did not involve SV's at all. The problem involved the expert 125 riders being gridded behind the amateur ULWSB riders. It seems to me that if two classes are run simultaneously in a two wave race, the expert riders in both classes should be gridded ahead of the amateur riders in both classes. It is irrelevant who reaches Turn 1 first. Let the experts start first and let the amateurs start second just like in any other single class two wave start.
QuoteI think we have completely got off the main topic.. What alfauno and I are talking about is for our race NOT lightweight GP or GT Lights......
But of course, don't you know this has been a thread-jack. :)
QuoteI think we have completely got off the main topic.. What alfauno and I are talking about is for our race NOT lightweight GP or GT Lights put 125's in the first wave we clear the first turn (don't get a 4 up our a$$)and then let the LWSB go, that way only 1 or 2 guys are going to get by us rather than us get by over half the field..
Yeah, exactly. Who's missing out...
BFR - 125GP vs Ultra Light Superbike...
First....
QuoteI can't imagine that many ULSB Amateurs are doing 15's, probably more like 25-30s. The 125s in our rider group are doing 1:20 (except for me, 28-29s).
There were three guys in 125GP...
But the reality of times is this...
QuoteThe faster bikes did start first. Expert Ultra Light Superbike times at Blackhawk are typically in the mid to low 17s to high 16s for Gary P., Billy B. and myself. We had 7 experts and 7 amateurs take the grid on Sunday.
So, the proposal is for a faster group of guys (lap times and straight away speeds) should start from the back?
Basically, it seems like we're trying to grid AMA Superstock behind AMA Supersport...Yeah, the 600's have a faster mid corner speed, but still...
Make a good case before getting all worked up.
In your court...
Dave,
The AMA Supersport/Superbike analogy might make some sense- if they had two wave starts, or had a two tier system with amateurs and experts, because the issue is whether or not it's right to start experts in a second wave behind amateurs. You frequently run your middleweight bike in classes that allow larger machines. Your races have large turnouts, so that amateurs are usually in a seperate race. But, what if they gridded the larger bikes ahead of you, experts and then amateurs, and started middleweights in a second wave so that you would have to work your way through an entire group of amateurs to catch the guys who can run at your pace? I don't think you'd be very happy. That's what has happaned to us in 125GP. The comparative performance issue really is moot, because it's always a result of rider & equipment. Did you see Jeff Purk running a strong third o/a in the LWGP at Topeka on Stiles' 125 (until the motor went south)? I only made a comparison of lap times because I think the 125s are thought to be small, therefore must be slow, by those who don't know. CCS recognizes the 125s and ULSBs to have similar performance capability, and so groups us together. I suggested the 125 first wave approach because it's been done before, and seemed to work out fine. However, at the very least, experts should start with experts, and amateurs with amateurs.