http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82995&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
I hate lawsuits, but thats gotta be one... people needs to be more responsible when it comes to other people's safety. If the guy can't be found after the session, they need to find him before continueing, especially there are corners that are not manned. If I know someone is following me trying to go faster than he normally does, I would keep an eye out for him while we are riding. Lastly if the corner is not covered, it needs to be inspected/paid attention too between sessions.
I feel bad for the guy and wish he recovers. Also hope they organizers shape up and change how they run the day, before someone is lost.
GAAAAAAAA!!!!!! I talked about exactly that during the corner worker controversy we had a few weeks ago. I think I said something about hoping they go out to look for you after they notice you didn't pack up your trailer at the end of the day. Eerily prophetic, and I don't like being that kind of prophet at all.
Don't take me wrong, but I hope this settles once and for all just how Gol Dang important corner workers are! If it takes a few extra bucks, charge a few extra bucks. And for God's sake, do what it takes to retain good, experienced workers.
I have been known to occasionally drop off a case or two of cold beer to the corner worker party when I'm flush. Other guys have done that or more. Nick Manske throws the workers a party each year. I think more people should reach out once in awhile.
:o I just read all 26 pages. That sucks :o Thank god for the cornerworkers. I'd hate to be where that guy was. Just thinking about it makes me sick :( I know I'd pay extra for cornerworks, no question. I've cornerworked, and it isn't fun anymore when someone goes down. :(
Scary isnt it? Honestly why couldnt have 1 person at every station. As Camping said, a few more dollars per rider isnt that much so something like this never happens again.
Polen was at the track day, told me the story this am. I guess the guy was missing for about 20 min, broken up but ok...
Tip your cornerworkers, and dont ride over your head at a track day.
This is a horrible story and nearly a horrible tragedy. We have a couple of track day groups here in Phoenix, and while they do things differently than us at CCS, they do it pretty safely most of the time (was not always this way). To all riders/racers, remember if you do not feel safe at a track day stop going. I know riders that will continue to go because "there is no where else to ride". If enough people make the noise, or lack of noise with bikes, the track day organizer in question will hopefully address this situation. I am curious to see how many people continue to use that particlular track day after this. Hey Kevin, maybe it is time to move back in on Thunderhill? ;)
Back to T-Hill it is! In Arizona they may run track days well but don't let anyone know when they are cancelled.
Anyone know how many people hold a valid CCS race license? Novice and Expert, all regions? 2K people?
QuoteAnyone know how many people hold a valid CCS race license? Novice and Expert, all regions? 2K people?
Contact CCS directly, they should be able to provide that information.
Dawn :)
There's another org out there that requires racers to cornerwork before being eligible to turn Expert.
I'm hard pressed to think of valid reasons why this wouldn't be a good idea.
Each racer should pay $50.00 a year, for the cornerworker fund. If there are 2000 racers between all regions, that = $100,000.00 to pay for cornerworkers. That is more than enough to pay for cornerworkers at every round, at every single corner or where needed for each race track. It's not asking too much. The money left over every year should go twards airfences.
I don't know about you guys, but $50.00 is a minimal fee to ensure our saftey. Hell, I'd pay $100.00. Yeah, we pay for this and that, but when it comes down to it:
NOBODY is responsible for YOUR saftey but yourself. You personally have to insure that you will be safe. If you don't care about it, don't show up to the track. Don't wanna pay $50.00 a year, don't show up. Sounds kind of mean, but it's the truth. If there is a shortage of available cornerworks, send your wife, girlfriend, or whatever out there. Someone even if not properly trained is better than nobody. Tell them that since they are watching, they can get one of the best seats on the track for free. Just tell them that if someone crashes there, push the button on the radio and say someone crashed, atleast that way it can be handled by race control or other corners. I bet that guy in the above link would have been happy and better off if even a 10 year old was there that could have made some noise to let people know. SOMETHING is better than nothing. And yes, I have corner worked. WERA GNF last year. What a circus. But hey, it worked out, and everything was safe.
You know what... is there a cornerworkers org.? There should be. There should be a web page out there, where people can sign up as a cornerworker, and list all the tracks they can work at. They can enter all their information, including qualifications like EMT, ect. and all that data can be stored in a database. Then, all valid track day orgs., race orgs., ect. could get user names and passwords and look at the database and make phone calls. Then their could be an emergency list, where cornerworkers could sign up as "emergency will call" where they would be willing to show up at a last minute notice incase of shortages. There could also be a paypal donate page where this website could pay cornerworkers for working. Imagine if every single track rider regardless if it's a racer, or just a regular track day'r donated $1.00 Think about how many people that is nationwide. It could be a nationwide database of cornerworkers with qualifications, ect. Phone numbers, addresses, ect. would be listed, and if it came down to it, a race org. could go online right at the track, look up an available "emergency will call" cornerworker at that local track, and have them there in a reasonable amount of time, and then the website could pay that cornerworker via paypal or something. That would be sweet. Then, there is always a cornerworker available. CCS, WERA, AFM, NESBA, ect. could also book cornerworkers ahead of time, and verify a day or two before the even that they are gonna show. I'll tell you guys what, if someone is willing to build the site, I'll pay to host it. 8)
Then, don't forget all the car clubs. Imagine if all racers/drivers donated $1.00 The database could be for those orgs. too :D More money = happy cornerworkers and safer race tracks ;) If there was enough money, cornerworkers could get a raise. :D
the domain: www.cornerworker.com is available
:D
Who's gonna build the site and databases?
Anyone?
And for the people that b@tch when a red flag goes out which they feel was not needed:
http://www.bikepics.com/movies/000183/
Watch that movie.........
Anyone download the video ???
QuoteAnyone download the video ???
Nope...
I have dial up in the middle of cow country, so I wouldn't even try.
Dawn :)
QuoteNope...
I have dial up in the middle of cow country, so I wouldn't even try.
Dawn Ê :)
Well, what happened is a guy lowsided, and got stuck in the middle of the track. So, 2 cornerworkers run out to help him. About 15 seconds later, one of the cornerworkers gets nailed by a bike. They didn't stop the race in time. :( Kinda graphic, but it's kinda like a sex ed video from back in Jr. Highschool. Has to be grapic to make a point.
I know that accident. That was Rob Dages that got hit.
I was working as Head Pit Steward at Loudon that day and bad things were building up starting in the morning. During morning practice there were no less than nine red flags thrown for various incidents. I was the first person the riders saw coming off of the track, and I got plenty of abuse from them, questioning why there were so many flags being thrown.
Rob got hit that afternoon and a firestorm of criticism hit the internet (A majority of it from people who only saw the clip you posted. One "expert" stated that Rob was killed), questioning why we did not throw the flag. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Same goes for that BARF thread.
First thing. Track days are held during the weekdays. It's awfully hard to get a full compliment of cornerworkers on a weekday. If you want to hire a full compliment of them, you'd best be competitive with the amount of money they're giving up to take the day off. I'm one of the few people at NHIS that can commit to a lot of days doing track control, and I limit the number of "Pro Bono" days I throw in. One of the girls actually asked me if I had a real job! Insurance regulations for track days tend to try to discourage all-out racing, so that the action is more manageable. Some contracts that I have read actually prohibit the use of stopwatches.
For every "I'd gladly pay an extra $20.00 in my entry fee for improvements" thread in a forum, there are several "If we do this, we can save money and lower the entry fees!" threads. Therefore I don't see vast amounts of money rolling in anytime soon.
BTW, here's a picture of Rob two weeks after he allegedly got killed. Behind him is his lovely wife Ann, best known as the cornerworker who had that altercation with Grant Lopez in Turn 3 a few years earlier.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresthome.50megs.com%2FMVC-724F.JPG&hash=5c778d2fd1e7e4a5486b01b41a863b7103a3e2f6)
QuoteKinda graphic, but it's kinda like a sex ed video from back in Jr. Highschool. Has to be graphic to make a point.
No it doesn't. Rob would like nothing better than to eradicate every copy of that flick from the planet. He doesn't like being the "graphic to make a point" poster boy.
The one point that is
not obvious in the flick is that the rider, who was more seriously injured than Rob, was rumored to not have any insurance at the time of the incident.
THAT is insane!
QuoteI know that accident. That was Rob Dages that got hit.
I was working as Head Pit Steward at Loudon that day and bad things were building up starting in the morning. During morning practice there were no less than nine red flags thrown for various incidents. I was the first person the riders saw coming off of the track, and I got plenty of abuse from them, questioning why there were so many flags being thrown.
Rob got hit that afternoon and a firestorm of criticism hit the internet (A majority of it from people who only saw the clip you posted. One "expert" stated that Rob was killed), questioning why we did not throw the flag. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Same goes for that BARF thread.
First thing. Track days are held during the weekdays. It's awfully hard to get a full compliment of cornerworkers on a weekday. If you want to hire a full compliment of them, you'd best be competitive with the amount of money they're giving up to take the day off. I'm one of the few people at NHIS that can commit to a lot of days doing track control, and I limit the number of "Pro Bono" days I throw in. One of the girls actually asked me if I had a real job! Insurance regulations for track days tend to try to discourage all-out racing, so that the action is more manageable. Some contracts that I have read actually prohibit the use of stopwatches.
For every "I'd gladly pay an extra $20.00 in my entry fee for improvements" thread in a forum, there are several "If we do this, we can save money and lower the entry fees!" threads. Therefore I don't see vast amounts of money rolling in anytime soon.
BTW, here's a picture of Rob two weeks after he allegedly got killed. Behind him is his lovely wife Ann, best known as the cornerworker who had that altercation with Grant Lopez in Turn 3 a few years earlier.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresthome.50megs.com%2FMVC-724F.JPG&hash=5c778d2fd1e7e4a5486b01b41a863b7103a3e2f6)
Not meaning to take away anything from the tragic events that transpired. A truly sad and preventable situation.
I will say that not all track days are held on weekdays. In fact, well over 95% of NESBA's events are held exclusively on WEEKENDS. NESBA also employs the exact same CW's that the track facility/race organizations do. Anyone who would even allude to the fact otherwise is simply misinformed. I can't comment on any other track day organization with regard to how they handle the CW situation. I can comment on NESBA and can assure you that safety is our number one consideration. It's not about the money.
The track day being discussed on the BARF Forum was held on a Monday.
NHIS's weekends are pretty booked with formal events (This weekend I'm working an FIM/USCRA/NAMU event), so I can say with a fair amount of certainty that 100% of the track days there are on weekdays. LRRS, USCRA and the Penguin School use the US Marshalls, the other orgs. (Hawk Racing School, BCM Ducati, A.R.C., Team Daemon, Tony's Track Days, etc.) put together their own crews. Some might come from the US Marshalls, but they are not officially contracted.
Money CAN be a factor. We've gotten calls from the track telling us of a day opening up because the org that had the day reserved couldn't sign up enough people to show up at a reasonable price. Raising the price to cover the red ink would have scared off some of those already signed up.
At the last Penguin Advanced School, I was up in the Turn 8 treehouse overlooking the entire track. I had 1 worker in Turn 5 and two (One a newbie that I was observing) at the 3/10 split to cover my blind spots. And Race Control was at Pit Exit/Turn One with me as their eyes. That's it. I am watching the entire track, and damned if I'm not watching one side of the track when something happens at the other side. I was brought in at the last minute to cover a no-show. Most of the US Marshalls have normal jobs and a limited number of days off.
Johnny...
I'm glad you posted the picture and that he was alright. We appreciate what the CW do for us.
Dawn ;)
Johnny,
Thanks for clearing that up. Glad to hear he's alright. I'm still trying to find someone that will be willing to build a site for the above. I'll host it though.
I think it would be cool for race orgs., to have access to a real time database of available cornerworkers. What I'm thinking is that as long as a majority of track day riders and racers each donate $1.00 it would work. If the site ends up being successful, and enough money is raised, cornerworkers could make $100.00 a day for each day worked :D That's what they deserve anyways, atleast.
QuoteNot meaning to take away anything from the tragic events that transpired. A truly sad and preventable situation.
Things come out of left field that aren't anticipated. We can only study what happened and improve things.
Judging from the BARF thread, they will look at the situation and make changes. We made changes in procedure following Rob's accident. I recently set up a chicane in the paddock following the Richard Chambers pit bike accident which fixed the intersection very nicely. And there is currently a review going on in the wake of Bryan Paquette's death, our first MC racing fatality in the 14 years that NHIS has been operating.
Are their any orgs. that "monitor" race track saftey and procedures? Kinda like ISO is a "standard" in manufacturing. Is there such a thing for race track saftey? Kinda like an outside firm that monitors safety and procedures? Like OSHA for worker saftey?
QuoteThings come out of left field that aren't anticipated. We can only study what happened and improve things.
Judging from the BARF thread, they will look at the situation and make changes. We made changes in procedure following Rob's accident. I recently set up a chicane in the paddock following the Richard Chambers pit bike accident which fixed the intersection very nicely. And there is currently a review going on in the wake of Bryan Paquette's death, our first MC racing fatality in the 14 years that NHIS has been operating.
what pit bike accident was this ?? and at what intersection ??
i am a regular lrrs.er and have been to many other tracks., i feel that LRRS has one of the safest run tracks., with the least amount of red flags possible.,
i know VIR and Summit for one have a ton of red flags., for far less reasons than LRRS does., yet LRRS is much safer and the corner workers have always been top notch ., they are top notch at ALL tracks do not take that the wrong way., please....
what year was robs accident in turn 2 ?
QuoteAre their any orgs. that "monitor" race track saftey and procedures? Kinda like ISO is a "standard" in manufacturing. Is there such a thing for race track saftey? Kinda like an outside firm that monitors safety and procedures? Like OSHA for worker saftey?
Jerry Wood is the NHIS Safety Director. It is his job to investigate these things and report to the Bahres with any suggestions and budget requests.
Sandy Macpherson has a massive incident database that goes back into the Bryar Motorsport Park days. It's quite handy for identifying and fixing trouble spots.
We are in New Hampshire, "Live Free Or Die" and all. With no state income tax or sales tax, you don't see much in the way of government bureacracy in these parts. There were questions as to who was supposed to investigate after the Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty NASCAR oval deaths. New Hampshire just does not have such an agency.
Quotewhat pit bike accident was this ?? and at what intersection ??
what year was robs accident in turn 2 ?
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=9700 Richard was coming from the Central Garages. He passed in front of the Scales Garage where I work and into traffic coming from the North Garages on their way to Pre-grid. Kind of like with cell phones, you shouldn't announce while driving! I later found out that he broke a kneecap. :o
Rob was hit July 7, 2001.
thats a scarey spot when you are going out to the grids ANYTIME... like a 3-way merge of hyped up people.,.....
thanks
Quotethats a scarey spot when you are going out to the grids ANYTIME... like a 3-way merge of hyped up people.,.....
Did you notice the fencing set up the last time around? If you weren't there the last event, you'll see it the next time around.
This thread is on hold for three days while I'm at NHIS! My idea of "roughing it" is no internet access. ;)